18F. What is healthy, normal, and not weird/wrong when it comes to sexuality/attraction?

[Honeyboo]

This is going to be a very long post, sorry in advance. I'm 18F, very hyper sexual which probably affects a lot, and I don't really know what's creepy or weird when it comes to sexual thoughts and outlets. There are a few things that I've been questioning on whether it's creepy or weird to do/think?

So, if I see an attractive man and am interested online I of course try to find their age and if I can't I usually don't bother with the poster/account. But if they are 18, I follow them and I guess "simp" and crush on them. And since I'm out of high school, I also worry if someone 18/19 is in high school or not but sometimes I don't know. I just know their age and that's it, so I'm unsure if they are in high school and if it'd be weird to be attracted to them or masturbate to them? For some posters/influencers and celebrities I am attracted to, I masturbate to them too. I find pictures I like of them, sexual or regular, and masturbate. I also usually imagine them with someone else, not myself.

I also do this for actors in shows, movies, etc. If there are characters I ship or that are a couple, I will imagine them in my head and masturbate to them. Pretty much so almost any romance show/movie I watch, or couple I ship, I usually envision sexually at some point. I don't know if this is weird. I also make my own stories and scenarios in my head, with fictional characters and real people, like celebrities/influencers. Even if I barely know anything about a person online or a character, just their age and what they look like, if I find them attractive  I might add them into a story I make up or based on something I've seen, I guess kind of like maladaptive daydreaming. These stories are mostly mature but also have other aspects going on. 

Another thing that's been bothering me, is video game characters? People talk about the face models, and also how some face models get harrassed. I really don't care about face models, just the character themself when I am attracted. But I have looked up face models just to see what they looked like or how old they were. But is it weird to read/write fiction or like sexual art of characters since they have real body/face models?? And that also brings me to two other things. Age gaps and real person fiction.

Is it considered real person fiction since the video game character is modeled off a real person? And is real person fiction/art, or like Vtuber stuff, because it's real people behind the voice and personality, sexual stuff or otherwise, wrong? Is it wrong to write or read it? I usually don't like rpf fiction or art, but there have been some celebrities or whatever that I have read stuff about or art I saved. Mostly sexual. Either because I shipped the celebrities, or just because they were attractive or the fic  was like an AU thing. Some fics I find weird if they age up or down a character from their real age when written, but I still think that's also fine because even if the age i, the fic is younger/older (as long as a younger age doesn't constitute making them underage or a kid ), readers and the writer are still probably thinking about the current celebrity. That's what I would do. It's kind of like, I would envision the character the author made in their fic,while also envisioning the real person themselves currently. I've seen debates on it, and I think personally it's fine as long as no one shoves it in a celebrity's face or acts weird about their dating life or becomes obsessed. Even with big public profiles, that have ship art of celebrities or something. But maybe my thinking is wrong?

Another thing is, for me liking a fictional character rn doesn't matter as long as they are 18+ and preferably out of high school, although ig the high school thing depends, I don't know.. Is that also wrong? Should it ne dependent on your age? Or liks, if a video game character's face model is super young, then would it be weird for someone much older to like the character? Like, the character is 18-21, and the face/body model was the same age. If someone who is 30 is attracted to the character or likes sexual things of them, is it gross and weird?? And is it creepy/wrong in general for someone 24+ to be attracted to real 18-20 year olds at all? For dating or just sex/masturbation?? And like media personas, where you don't know the real person or their age, just their personality and fictional visual? I hear people say 18/19 it's only normal to date up to 22 really (although some people say 22 and 18 is weird too??) and then 20-24 ages is 4 years max for dating someobe older. Anyone older than that being interested in someone those ages is predatory and weird. But I don’t see why. Especially if it’s purely physical. It’s just, they’re attractive and then someone likes them or I guess masturbates to them idk. If some 27-30yo were to simp over a 18-21yo or be like “wish I could have sex with them” I wouldn’t find it creepy. They’re an adult. And they are physically mature. And if someone were to be much older but say they found someone younger that they really liked, I wouldn’t find that weird either. Only if it was like “they’re ONLY attractive to me because they’re barely legal!!” Or “I only like them because I want to manipulate them” or smthn 

But I find that I only really like young guys or pretty boys, usually in the 18-25 range. And I'm scared I won't grow out of it?? I also do watch real porn, but I never really think to figure out what age they are. Just if they’re attractive and if I like the video. If I do try to find a age, most of the time one isn’t even listed. And y’know, same for social media stars.  So, how on earth would you navigate that when being much older? If you’re 30, do you just vet each porn video and if you can’t find an age say “well, they might be too young” then hop off? If you watched a video where the porn star was 18/19 and you’re like 24+, do you just go “oh wow, I’m such a creep. I’m a pedo” or if you learn their age before watching do people think “oh wow, WAY too young to watch porn of them” ?

And with age gaps, is it gross and predatory to enjoy age gaps in fiction? Again, as long as they are 18+. Including shows or movies where the actors have the same age difference or a pretty big one too? Especially if it's an NSFW film? There is one drama I like paired between a 20-year-old actor and 28-year-old actor. I sometimes imagine both the actors/characters and masturbate to them. A few other dramas I like are nsfw and one actor is pretty young while the other is like 7+ years older. At any age, is it weird to do that because the age gap between these actors? Or like, if I was 24 and imagining them or other age gaps with someone like 20-24 and 28-30+? Is it only weird to enjoy the age gap relationship/people involved or even have sexual thoughts of the relationship if the younger is outside your own age range?? Exp. If you’re 23, it’s okay to imagine/enjoy a 20yo and 30yo together. And if you’re 26, it’s okay to imagine/enjoy a 23yp and 30+ together bc their in your range, but not like 19/20 and 30+ bc that’d be too young for you
Idk, I'm just really confused on what's normal, healthy, and then what's wrong and creepy. And what habits would be weird and immature and gross as I get older.

I've had all these habits since I was like 13, and I never thought much about it. Are these immoral, creepy, and weird things to do? Especially as I age? I already get anxious enough having to figure out if someone, fictional or not, is 18 and out of high school. I can’t imagine being older and then freaking out on whether this person I had the hots for was *gasp* 22 years old!? Or like, if they are the minimum age I can like (like if you’re 28 and tryna figure out if they’re at least 23/24) 

[Heather]

Hi there, honeyboo.

I want to start by saying that the framework of hyper (and its inverse, hypo) sexuality isn't one everyone agrees is a valid one, and it's something very rarely used by people who actually work in sex and sexuality, and instead tends to be a term found more on social media. I'm one of those people that don't care for this framework and I find it very problematic. It suggests there is some perfect median level of sexual desire, which there simply isn't. Instead, there is just a whole lot of human diversity, not only from person to person, but from year to year, day to day, relationship to relationship, life phase to life phase. If you have a clinical diagnosis of compulsive sexuality or sexual thoughts (these are the terms and frameworks that are more widely accepted, and which I also think are more accurate and less problematic), then by all means, let me know, and I'll be sure to bear that in mind as we talk. Otherwise, I'm going to assume this is a term you are applying to yourself because you don't realize that there's just no such things as the "right" amount of desire for sex and are assuming the amount you want is too much. We can talk about that if you want, too.

I'm not actually seeing anything here in this post but what feels like a lot of overthinking. It's perfectly normal, to engage in sexual fantasy or to feel desire when it comes to different people, and different kinds of media (so, like movies or games, as you mentioned). You also seem to be describing mostly feeling attracted to people around your same age, something else that's wildly common. Age differences -- especially when we aren't even actually talking about real-life relationships, but fantasies and attractions -- of a few years to a decade really aren't big age differences. People with that level of age difference tend to be romantic or sexual partners (or platonic friends, for that matter) all the time.

What people fantasize about is really never right or wrong, because those words, and ethics and morals in general, are about actions, not thoughts. Unless I am missing something, you aren't asking about any actual, in-person relationships or sexual interactions with other people anywhere in this post, are you? You ask about "doing" things, but all I am seeing here so far is about thoughts, not actions.

What all of your post sounds like to me is that for some reason, you have decided that something is wrong with you sexually or wrong with your sexuality. I'm not sure I understand where you're getting those ideas: is that something you have a sense of? If so, can you fill me in some on where you think these concerns or assumptions you have a sexual disorder are coming from?

[Honeyboo]

Hi there, honeyboo.

I want to start by saying that the framework of hyper (and its inverse, hypo) sexuality isn't one everyone agrees is a valid one, and it's something very rarely used by people who actually work in sex and sexuality, and instead tends to be a term found more on social media. I'm one of those people that don't care for this framework and I find it very problematic. It suggests there is some perfect median level of sexual desire, which there simply isn't. Instead, there is just a whole lot of human diversity, not only from person to person, but from year to year, day to day, relationship to relationship, life phase to life phase. If you have a clinical diagnosis of compulsive sexuality or sexual thoughts (these are the terms and frameworks that are more widely accepted, and which I also think are more accurate and less problematic), then by all means, let me know, and I'll be sure to bear that in mind as we talk. Otherwise, I'm going to assume this is a term you are applying to yourself because you don't realize that there's just no such things as the "right" amount of desire for sex and are assuming the amount you want is too much. We can talk about that if you want, too.

I'm not actually seeing anything here in this post but what feels like a lot of overthinking. It's perfectly normal, to engage in sexual fantasy or to feel desire when it comes to different people, and different kinds of media (so, like movies or games, as you mentioned). You also seem to be describing mostly feeling attracted to people around your same age, something else that's wildly common. Age differences -- especially when we aren't even actually talking about real-life relationships, but fantasies and attractions -- of a few years to a decade really aren't big age differences. People with that level of age difference tend to be romantic or sexual partners (or platonic friends, for that matter) all the time.

What people fantasize about is really never right or wrong, because those words, and ethics and morals in general, are about actions, not thoughts. Unless I am missing something, you aren't asking about any actual, in-person relationships or sexual interactions with other people anywhere in this post, are you? You ask about "doing" things, but all I am seeing here so far is about thoughts, not actions.

What all of your post sounds like to me is that for some reason, you have decided that something is wrong with you sexually or wrong with your sexuality. I'm not sure I understand where you're getting those ideas: is that something you have a sense of? If so, can you fill me in some on where you think these concerns or assumptions you have a sexual disorder are coming from?

I'm sorry if I used improper terminology, its just I have seen that term thrown around a lot online for people who are just very sexual in general. I was just trying to say that I am a very sexual person. Like, things revolving around sexual things make up a good portion of my life. However, I don't really have sex with other people or desire to. I feel sexual and physical attraction I believe, but I don't actually ever imagine myself having sex with someone or really desire it? As for any sexual disorders or diagnoses, I don't have any specific ones other than some subtypes of OCD. Moral OCD being one, and another that is attraction based but I'd rather not say.

I was not talking about real, in real life interactions, no. Everything I mentioned here is purely things online and in my own mind. But I was talking about in certain instances fantasizing about real people, and also reading "real person fiction" that was sexual about real people, or characters played by real people.

As for my age range, I know the characters and real people I like are within my age bracket as of right now. I'm just worried I will grow older and not outgrow real people who are much younger and if that's creepy and wrong. I was also very worried that when I grow older, me liking purely fictional characters who wouldn't be age appropriate in real life would also be weird and creepy. Like, past 22-years-old, being attracted, sexualizing, and/or dating 18-year-olds is frowned upon. And past 24, liking someone 20 would also be considered weird, predatory, etc.

So, my main worry was that I would still be attracted to and sexually interested in men those ages as I grow. And also if it was wrong with real people, if that also correlates to fiction and fictional characters. Like, if someone were 30 it would be considered creepy to be attracted to an 18/19-year-old and early twenties, and fantasize, date, watch porn of, etc. about them. Age gaps in real life is also considered gross and uncomfortable, even in shows, especially if it is explicit in the media and probably if an adult was enjoying the large age gap in a mature/explicit way themselves. I wondered if that also meant that liking an 18/19-year-old and early twenties fictional character (anime, manwha, novel character) in that way was also considered creepy and wrong. Or if it's only seen as a gross and creepy thing when it comes to a real person. Although my main conundrum is with the fictional thing. I mostly enjoy fictional stories and characters, it's a big part of my sexuality and attractions. So, I am just very afraid and anxious that when I turn certain ages I will have to get rid of crushes, ships, and sexual manwhas, fanfic/novels I like because they wouldn't be in my age range in reality. And some stories I read don't even offer an age of the characters, just a general range or maybe context clues. So, that would also make reading and developing crushes/attraction more difficult.

But I also do very much feel attracted to real people, and the thought of growing and it being weird to be attracted to attractive people because they're young honestly miffs me and makes me very anxious. Both out of fear that I won't outgrow young adults and also the fear of how hard it would be to make sure anyone I ever like/feel attracted to online is an appropriate age. I already struggle learning if someone is 18 and/or out of high school, and the bare minimum age for some people I like I could find or safely say was 18. I also do this for videos and pictures I see of celebrities, social media stars, etc. that I feel attraction to or use as a visualization for a fantasy. So, the thought of being like 25 and freaking out over whether someone is 21+ and not knowing constantly just seemed even more stressful than it already is right now with me trying to make sure someone is 18+.

I don't know if it's me thinking I have a sexual disorder, more so just me being concerned and afraid that my sexuality and thoughts/fantasies and attractions are unhealthy, immature, immoral, and creepy. Or would be as I age. Also, sorry for this very long reply. Just wanted to be thorough with what I meant and what the issue is.

[Latha]

Hi there, Honeyboo! Don’t worry about the long reply, it was a thorough explanation!

You know, as people get older, so does the age range of their potential partners. This is something that happens naturally, because most people tend to feel attracted to their peers — these are the people they can relate to, and who will understand them in turn. You seem really worried about the idea that you might still be attracted to people your current age years from now — I have to ask, what indication do you have that this will happen? To me, it seems like a very big what if that doesn’t track with how attraction actually works.

I think Heather made a very important point when they said that your fantasies can’t be right or wrong, and that ethical considerations are best used for our actions. When you are worried about doing something wrong, it might be helpful to ask yourself about whether your actions are harming or even affecting any real people. Just feeling attraction to another person can’t impact them, because they probably don’t even know it is happening. And you won’t have to abandon your fictional crushes and ships as you get older because nothing you do with fictional characters can hurt people in the real world. You don’t have to go investigating everyone you feel the slightest bit attracted to or interrogate yourself about the nature of your feelings. All you have to do is treat real people with basic respect and consideration. You already know how to do that.

As I read all your questions about whether something is weird/predatory/creepy/wrong/appropriate, it strikes me that all of these questions are about the moral value of your thoughts — you’re focused on doing things right. Since we’re quite sure that there is nothing that needs to change about the way you experience attraction, it might be most helpful to approach these concerns by thinking about the moral OCD that you mentioned. How do you usually respond to OCD about morals? Do you think there are strategies that you can apply here?

P.S. Sofia, a volunteer here, just wrote a great article on her experience with sexual thoughts and OCD that you might like to read: Embracing Vulnerability and Discomfort with Sexually Intrusive Thoughts

[Honeyboo]

Hi there, Honeyboo! Don’t worry about the long reply, it was a thorough explanation!

You know, as people get older, so does the age range of their potential partners. This is something that happens naturally, because most people tend to feel attracted to their peers — these are the people they can relate to, and who will understand them in turn. You seem really worried about the idea that you might still be attracted to people your current age years from now — I have to ask, what indication do you have that this will happen? To me, it seems like a very big what if that doesn’t track with how attraction actually works.

I think Heather made a very important point when they said that your fantasies can’t be right or wrong, and that ethical considerations are best used for our actions. When you are worried about doing something wrong, it might be helpful to ask yourself about whether your actions are harming or even affecting any real people. Just feeling attraction to another person can’t impact them, because they probably don’t even know it is happening. And you won’t have to abandon your fictional crushes and ships as you get older because nothing you do with fictional characters can hurt people in the real world. You don’t have to go investigating everyone you feel the slightest bit attracted to or interrogate yourself about the nature of your feelings. All you have to do is treat real people with basic respect and consideration. You already know how to do that.

As I read all your questions about whether something is weird/predatory/creepy/wrong/appropriate, it strikes me that all of these questions are about the moral value of your thoughts — you’re focused on doing things right. Since we’re quite sure that there is nothing that needs to change about the way you experience attraction, it might be most helpful to approach these concerns by thinking about the moral OCD that you mentioned. How do you usually respond to OCD about morals? Do you think there are strategies that you can apply here?

P.S. Sofia, a volunteer here, just wrote a great article on her experience with sexual thoughts and OCD that you might like to read: Embracing Vulnerability and Discomfort with Sexually Intrusive Thoughts

I understand it can be a big "what if" but I have a specific type in men, that usually falls in the 18-25 range. And I realize that my attraction to people has always kind of "lagged" behind. I'll admit that at 15-17, I was attracted to people three years younger than me. Which I thought was normal, as well as dating, but apparently not? I'm 18 now, and would definitely never date or think sexually about someone below 18. But, I just realize that my opinions and attractions seem to be,, well I don't know a proper word for it. I guess borderline? I don't know.

As for dating, I can definitely understand people being attracted to peers because you'd want someone in the same range for that. My main issue is outside of dating and romantic attraction and relationships. Like, if I remove the factor of me dating them and being romantically interested, I feel like I'm much more likely to be physically/sexually attracted to someone, or at least someone younger than me. So, if I'm much older, I'm scared that I'll like people way younger than me because I wouldn't be looking at them through the lens of a peer and companion, just physical appearance and if they could be a sexual outlet. My thoughts would probably just be, "are they attractive? are they my type physically?" etc. and if the answer is yes, I'd likely be attracted to them. I also don't know if that makes sense or not.

With fantasy, thoughts, and actions, I do think your actions are at the end of the day what matters the most. But I also believe sometimes our thoughts and fantasies can be morally wrong. Like a thought sin. Or at least, maybe influence your actions. Some of the things I highlighted in my original post have me questioning if they are immoral actions that harm others as well. Like real person fiction and real person shipping. And those famous social media accounts that post like, thirst edits or sexual things about real people.

I have OCD over a variety of things, but I would say my health OCD, moral OCD, and the other subtype I mentioned are three that affect me the most. I don't think I've come up with a good strategy or coping mechanism for anxiety and intrusive thoughts I possess from these OCD types. The only thing I do is obsessively look things up online and try to talk to people about what's worrying me and get a clear answer, or selfishly a justification for my thoughts, opinions, and actions. (like as an example, my opinion on large age gaps at ages 18-25) So, I don't really think there are any useful strategies I can apply. My anxiety and OCD act up everyday and all day for the most part.

[Latha]

Hi Honeyboo,

I want to gently challenge the idea that there is something inherently wrong with thinking sexually about people who are not eighteen. Just take the situation of a seventeen-year-old dating someone who is sixteen. Should they have to break up once the former turns eighteen? I think that would be pretty sad, and so do many others. While eighteen is an important age that gives people many new responsibilities and rights, it doesn’t come with an immediate change in maturity or life experience. This is why we have Romeo and Juliet exceptions. Not engaging sexually with people who are not eighteen is a fair rule for you to have for yourself, but I wouldn't apply it everywhere.

I think I understand where you are coming from when you say that our thoughts can influence our actions. However, I still think it isn’t the best idea to for us to spend time scrutinizing our thoughts. Trying to apply strict moral standards to our mind is an inherently difficult project, because we don’t have complete conscious control over our thoughts and feelings. Sometimes minds work a little like random generators — they say things not because that is what you actually want, but just because it is possible to think about. Minds can also focus on subjects that are frightening or emotionally charged in some other way. Forbidden and taboo topics can take on emotional or erotic significance without anyone trying to make that happen. The fact is that the fantasies and thoughts people have are not a direct indication of what they would actually want or how they would act in real life. I’m not going to say our thoughts have no impact on our actions, but there really isn’t a one-to-one correlation here.

(I don’t think I can evaluate the whole phenomenon of real person fiction/shipping and thirst edits, but I think it is true that many engage with these things without letting that distort their understanding of how they should interact with other people.)

We often advise focusing moral considerations on the real world because that is concrete and far more straightforward than the process of applying them to the mind. The latter frequently lends itself to the sort of anxiety that you are experiencing. And I don’t think these worries are doing anything positive, they are only hurting you.

I wonder if it might be helpful to discuss the role of context in attraction for a moment. It is very normal for your feelings of attraction to change once you learn more about a person. Sometimes this can increase attraction — you could be interested in someone at first glance, and then feel more attracted to them when you learn about other aspects of their life, like their sense of humor. It can also decrease attraction, such as when you learn someone’s age, and think they’re a bit young. This happens to people all the time. Changing your mind here doesn’t mean you did something wrong in the first place. Because, again, the things that happen in your mind can’t affect other people.

It really must be exhausting to have anxiety all day, every day. I worry that this habit you’ve described of looking things up and talking to people, searching for some answer or justification, is not helping you. It sounds a bit like compulsive behavior. There are some kinds of worries that you can’t reason with or argue against — or at least, that can’t be your only strategy. Would you like to talk about some other strategies that you can try to apply here?

I'll admit that at 15-17, I was attracted to people three years younger than me. Which I thought was normal, as well as dating, but apparently not?

I’m curious, how did you come to this conclusion that your feelings were not normal somehow?

[Honeyboo]

Hi Honeyboo,

I want to gently challenge the idea that there is something inherently wrong with thinking sexually about people who are not eighteen. Just take the situation of a seventeen-year-old dating someone who is sixteen. Should they have to break up once the former turns eighteen? I think that would be pretty sad, and so do many others. While eighteen is an important age that gives people many new responsibilities and rights, it doesn’t come with an immediate change in maturity or life experience. This is why we have Romeo and Juliet exceptions. Not engaging sexually with people who are not eighteen is a fair rule for you to have for yourself, but I wouldn't apply it everywhere.

I think I understand where you are coming from when you say that our thoughts can influence our actions. However, I still think it isn’t the best idea to for us to spend time scrutinizing our thoughts. Trying to apply strict moral standards to our mind is an inherently difficult project, because we don’t have complete conscious control over our thoughts and feelings. Sometimes minds work a little like random generators — they say things not because that is what you actually want, but just because it is possible to think about. Minds can also focus on subjects that are frightening or emotionally charged in some other way. Forbidden and taboo topics can take on emotional or erotic significance without anyone trying to make that happen. The fact is that the fantasies and thoughts people have are not a direct indication of what they would actually want or how they would act in real life. I’m not going to say our thoughts have no impact on our actions, but there really isn’t a one-to-one correlation here.

(I don’t think I can evaluate the whole phenomenon of real person fiction/shipping and thirst edits, but I think it is true that many engage with these things without letting that distort their understanding of how they should interact with other people.)

We often advise focusing moral considerations on the real world because that is concrete and far more straightforward than the process of applying them to the mind. The latter frequently lends itself to the sort of anxiety that you are experiencing. And I don’t think these worries are doing anything positive, they are only hurting you.

I wonder if it might be helpful to discuss the role of context in attraction for a moment. It is very normal for your feelings of attraction to change once you learn more about a person. Sometimes this can increase attraction — you could be interested in someone at first glance, and then feel more attracted to them when you learn about other aspects of their life, like their sense of humor. It can also decrease attraction, such as when you learn someone’s age, and think they’re a bit young. This happens to people all the time. Changing your mind here doesn’t mean you did something wrong in the first place. Because, again, the things that happen in your mind can’t affect other people.

It really must be exhausting to have anxiety all day, every day. I worry that this habit you’ve described of looking things up and talking to people, searching for some answer or justification, is not helping you. It sounds a bit like compulsive behavior. There are some kinds of worries that you can’t reason with or argue against — or at least, that can’t be your only strategy. Would you like to talk about some other strategies that you can try to apply here?

I'll admit that at 15-17, I was attracted to people three years younger than me. Which I thought was normal, as well as dating, but apparently not?

I’m curious, how did you come to this conclusion that your feelings were not normal somehow?

People are very judgmental when it comes to any sort of age gap and being 18/19 while dating someone underaged. As well as dating 3 years younger in high school. Heck, even dating three years younger when you're both adults is considered wrong and weird now. Or "iffy" a "proceed with caution" dynamic. And some people say it's grooming or gives "pedo" vibes. Which is why I felt wrong when I learned that most people consider dating or being attracted to someone 2-3 years younger in high school was wrong and "pedo" so that's why I realized it wasn't normal.

And that's also why I'm scared of growing too. Both with being afraid of not losing attraction to 18-25-year-olds but also because even if someone is only 3 years younger than you as an adult unless it's 25+, you get flamed for it. Which kind of comes into play of "if someone is too young people lose attraction". 21 and 18/19 is apparently wrong now. 22 and 18/19 is "not the same life stage" and "so much more mature". Some people think even 18 and 19 is weird.....20/21 and 24/25 is also considered the same. Liking someone in any way (dating, sex, porn, fantasizing, marriage, etc.) whose not like, the same age as you is looked at judgmentally and people call you immature, a groomer, a pedo, a creep, etc.

And it's honestly kind of funny, because people think 21-23 and 18-20 is lifetime's away and the 20+ year olds are "so mature" and "completely different" but if they were to date someone above 24/25 everyone would be throwing a fit and infantilizing them. Saying they were just children and didn't know anything. So, the normal and average view about age difference (from what I've see online at least) is very contradictory. But, it doesn't negate the fact that this IS the opinion people have on things like this now. Even if I personally find it insane.

For other strategies involving anxiety, I guess we could. But I don't think it'd really help. My fear and anxiety stems a lot of public perception and how people think of me.

[KierC]

Hey Honeyboo,

So, before going into the age difference topic more, I want to expand on something Latha mentioned with the anxiety coping strategies. I hear you that you don’t believe coping strategies would be of use to you with feeling better about this; but I am also hearing you that you’re looking for answers or diving into the topics that trigger your OCD online, and it sounds like this could be involved in a cycle of anxiety for you. Did I understand you correctly there? If this is the case, it might be worth exploring options to seek support with the OCD symptoms you’re experiencing, as that often involves some sort of intervention aimed at slowing and stopping this cycle of anxiety. How does hearing that make you feel, and what are your thoughts on that?

[Honeyboo]

Hey Honeyboo,

So, before going into the age difference topic more, I want to expand on something Latha mentioned with the anxiety coping strategies. I hear you that you don’t believe coping strategies would be of use to you with feeling better about this; but I am also hearing you that you’re looking for answers or diving into the topics that trigger your OCD online, and it sounds like this could be involved in a cycle of anxiety for you. Did I understand you correctly there? If this is the case, it might be worth exploring options to seek support with the OCD symptoms you’re experiencing, as that often involves some sort of intervention aimed at slowing and stopping this cycle of anxiety. How does hearing that make you feel, and what are your thoughts on that?

Yes, you understood. I feel like to an extent that could be helpful, but also not. Most of my anxiety stems from myself and my personal issues, which is then enhanced by seeing public opinions or judgment. But perhaps it would help

[Latha]

Hi there, Honeyboo

If there is a possibility that mental health support could help, I think it would be worth giving it a try! This really is a lot to be stressed about — you deserve relief. For what it is worth, the way you’ve described your experiences is very similar to other people with OCD/moral scrupulosity, and we do know of some treatments that work well in these situations. Your anxiety may indeed be based in your personal issues, but the goal here would be to help you handle them. You have options. There are guides and workbooks that can take you through the process of managing obsessive thoughts and compulsions. You could also look for the support of a professional, such as a therapist who specializes in treatment for moral OCD - lots of people see benefits from this. If you would like, we can help you look for a provider.

Now, on to your concerns about age difference:

You’ve mentioned looking online and learning about how people see age gaps. I am not surprised that the discussion you’ve seen was very contradictory and confusing. Standards around this topic online can be inconsistent, people can be very angry. I do believe that this intense scrutiny of age gaps that you are seeing online comes from good intentions. There are uncountable examples of older people with power taking advantage of younger people in relationships. Because of the nature of the societies that we live in, this awful dynamic is often gendered. Child sexual abuse is also far too common, and is not addressed nearly enough. The people in these discussions probably want more justice and safety in the world. While it is fair to talk about the problems associated in age gap relationships in general, I’m not sure that this is the best approach, especially when we have to deal with the relationships of real people.

For one, these conversations don’t typically account for the possibility of positive age disparate relationships. As you’ve noted, they can become really infantilizing, accusing adults of being children who can’t make decisions for themselves. Condescending to young people also hurts those who are actually in unhealthy relationships. It can be really insulting to hear that you are not mature enough for your relationship. If you believe that your partner is a good person who loves you, you are probably are not going to listen to anyone talk about how an age gap makes them predatory (or at least, it will be difficult). These conversations also don’t acknowledge the fact that people can have differing abilities and skills at the same age.

When the world is complicated and confusing, I think it can help to go back to the basics, and start from first principles. Instead of thinking about the age gap itself, we could ask questions that can help us understand if a relationship is healthy for those involved. Take a look at our article on healthy relationships:Hello, Sailor! How to Build, Board and Navigate a Healthy Relationship. Based on the characteristics that it describes, we might ask: How are decisions made in this relationship? Do the partners treat each other as equals? Does everyone get to be their own person? Can everyone set boundaries that are respected? If a relationship isn’t safe for age-gap reasons, it is guaranteed to not match what a healthy relationship looks like.

This approach has a few advantages: It can evaluate most relationships, not just ones with an age gap. It can account for people’s varying abilities and experiences. It doesn’t require us to look down on young people, because focusing on the characteristics of a healthy relationship is clearer about what could possibly, if at all, be concerning about their partner. Finally, this also has the important advantage of focusing our attention on people’s actions, and on how we treat our partners, instead of on theoretical harms.

It sounds like you might think that the opinions of these people are the definitive standard for judging relationships — I’m not so sure about that. I know people who wouldn’t bat an eye at a 21-year-old dating someone three years older. Everything I’ve said so far has been my personal position on this topic. But when people come here to talk about their age-disparate relationships, I have not seen the staff or volunteers react with the kind of sharp judgment you see in some other online spaces. Instead, we ask questions. And everyone here is really big on safe and healthy relationships — we would not ignore a bad situation.

My ultimate point is that there isn’t a problem with the way you experience attraction. You don’t have to be afraid of growing older. The one issue in this situation is your anxiety, and how it is keeping you in this terrible cycle. I know this might go against what feels right instinctively, but I encourage you to try to hold off on acting on those feelings. They’ve been with you for a while, I imagine, so you know what they have to say. Instead, explore your options for OCD treatment. It is my sincere belief that it may help you.

Here is the International OCD Foundation's page on moral OCD: Moral Scrupulosity

[Honeyboo]

Hi there, Honeyboo

If there is a possibility that mental health support could help, I think it would be worth giving it a try! This really is a lot to be stressed about — you deserve relief. For what it is worth, the way you’ve described your experiences is very similar to other people with OCD/moral scrupulosity, and we do know of some treatments that work well in these situations. Your anxiety may indeed be based in your personal issues, but the goal here would be to help you handle them. You have options. There are guides and workbooks that can take you through the process of managing obsessive thoughts and compulsions. You could also look for the support of a professional, such as a therapist who specializes in treatment for moral OCD - lots of people see benefits from this. If you would like, we can help you look for a provider.

Now, on to your concerns about age difference:

You’ve mentioned looking online and learning about how people see age gaps. I am not surprised that the discussion you’ve seen was very contradictory and confusing. Standards around this topic online can be inconsistent, people can be very angry. I do believe that this intense scrutiny of age gaps that you are seeing online comes from good intentions. There are uncountable examples of older people with power taking advantage of younger people in relationships. Because of the nature of the societies that we live in, this awful dynamic is often gendered. Child sexual abuse is also far too common, and is not addressed nearly enough. The people in these discussions probably want more justice and safety in the world. While it is fair to talk about the problems associated in age gap relationships in general, I’m not sure that this is the best approach, especially when we have to deal with the relationships of real people.

For one, these conversations don’t typically account for the possibility of positive age disparate relationships. As you’ve noted, they can become really infantilizing, accusing adults of being children who can’t make decisions for themselves. Condescending to young people also hurts those who are actually in unhealthy relationships. It can be really insulting to hear that you are not mature enough for your relationship. If you believe that your partner is a good person who loves you, you are probably are not going to listen to anyone talk about how an age gap makes them predatory (or at least, it will be difficult). These conversations also don’t acknowledge the fact that people can have differing abilities and skills at the same age.

When the world is complicated and confusing, I think it can help to go back to the basics, and start from first principles. Instead of thinking about the age gap itself, we could ask questions that can help us understand if a relationship is healthy for those involved. Take a look at our article on healthy relationships:Hello, Sailor! How to Build, Board and Navigate a Healthy Relationship. Based on the characteristics that it describes, we might ask: How are decisions made in this relationship? Do the partners treat each other as equals? Does everyone get to be their own person? Can everyone set boundaries that are respected? If a relationship isn’t safe for age-gap reasons, it is guaranteed to not match what a healthy relationship looks like.

This approach has a few advantages: It can evaluate most relationships, not just ones with an age gap. It can account for people’s varying abilities and experiences. It doesn’t require us to look down on young people, because focusing on the characteristics of a healthy relationship is clearer about what could possibly, if at all, be concerning about their partner. Finally, this also has the important advantage of focusing our attention on people’s actions, and on how we treat our partners, instead of on theoretical harms.

It sounds like you might think that the opinions of these people are the definitive standard for judging relationships — I’m not so sure about that. I know people who wouldn’t bat an eye at a 21-year-old dating someone three years older. Everything I’ve said so far has been my personal position on this topic. But when people come here to talk about their age-disparate relationships, I have not seen the staff or volunteers react with the kind of sharp judgment you see in some other online spaces. Instead, we ask questions. And everyone here is really big on safe and healthy relationships — we would not ignore a bad situation.

My ultimate point is that there isn’t a problem with the way you experience attraction. You don’t have to be afraid of growing older. The one issue in this situation is your anxiety, and how it is keeping you in this terrible cycle. I know this might go against what feels right instinctively, but I encourage you to try to hold off on acting on those feelings. They’ve been with you for a while, I imagine, so you know what they have to say. Instead, explore your options for OCD treatment. It is my sincere belief that it may help you.

Here is the International OCD Foundation's page on moral OCD: Moral Scrupulosity

Okay, thank you! I know some people don't take in other factors or infantilize when it comes to age gap discourse, and that a 21yo dating a 24yo would be fine. But some people don't think that. And I continue to worry about what's "normal" and "acceptable". I also know my anxiety affects a lot, but it's based off real concerns and probable scenarios related with what I worry about. So, it's hard not to feel anxious about it, since I know how likely what I worry about is.

The, other thing though is, like I mentioned in my original post and a couple of my replies, is I'm scared that people would think it's weird and creepy/wrong to be attracted to and interested in sexual content of young fictional characters & age gap fiction when I'm older. Specifically, the 18-25 age range. I have talked to a few people about it, and feedback seems mixed or maybe I misunderstood them and just stopped asking because I didn't want to be a bother or if they had given their final answer that it would be weird to keep asking for clarification.

I think of the 5-6 different people I talked to, two said they're limit was 21-years-old (they are 25+) and one said that perhaps moving a fictional age up to 21 would be more normal instead of 18 for me. And she kept saying that I would "grow out of it" and "understand" when I'm older. That I would enjoy the characters and stories differently. Although when I offered the predicament of me not growing out of it, she had said "eh i can't really say, that would be on your own morals, and you aren't hurting anyone real at the end of the day." And at some point I had responded I was just worried my attraction wouldn't grow in the fictional realm as I aged and she had replied "honestly not a huge deal since its not real people at the end of the day, don't let these chronically online people stress you out." I ended the convo by saying I'd see what would happen as I age but if it doesn't change, try not to be bothered by it because it's fictional. And her last reply was "no problem! Things will start to make sense, I promise." Which I understood as her saying as I age, I'll start holding the same opinion as her of experiencing the characters/stories in a different way and not being attracted/sexually interested like I am now. Which still didn't help really. I felt like instead of giving an answer of if it's objectively or subjectively to her weird/creepy, she was just saying "nah, you'll age out of it."

One other person I had talked to had said they asked some friends and their friends said it'd be weird. But she didn't go into detail. Like, our conversation: "This is a weird question, but…I am attracted to/sexually into a lot of BL manwha/novels/anime and also just fictional characters in general. But, I started thinking, when I turn a certain age would it be weird to still be into, sexually or romantically, young fictional characters, stories, anime, ships, and large age gaps? Like, when I’m 30 would being attracted to Yuuki from Pink Heart Jam be wrong? When I’m 40, would enjoying the smut of Ilay and Taeui be creepy, and being very attracted to both of them? Since they’re 23&25….
Like I said, random and weird question but it got me thinking. Bc when I turned 18 I gave up underage crushes and smut of anyone underaged. Then my rule was just if a character, ship, and story was 18+ and preferably out of hs."
her: "Honestly, that's a great question you got there. Quite interesting actually....well, I can't particularly answer you because it's base on everyone preferences and thoughts. Like maybe you can still be attracted to them at 60? There's no wrong in liking something even if you are old. Just be yourself and stop overthinking"
me:"Well, what would be your general opinion on it? And personal preference? Do you personally think it’s weird, or weird for yourself?"
her:I honestly don't really care about it. I'll stay loyal to passion (passion is a novel we both like). I did ask around and people think it's a bit weird but that shouldn't affect you if you really like them. Be yourself "

Which I get what she was saying, but the fact that her friends thought it was weird scared me and made me feel bad.



And I think a few other people might have also misunderstood or ignored what I was saying (even though I had clearly mentioned be attracted to and sexual interest) and just said things like "it's ok to enjoy a genre" "enjoying a story isn't meant just for one age!" etc.

[aarija]

Hey Honeyboo,
I'm hearing that your main source of anxiety is that some people will judge you for who you find attractive and what fantasies you're engaging with in your head. The conversations you had with your friends are sticking with you because you feel like they didn't fully understand what your concern is. Do I have that right?

It seems like both of these people touched on something that I'd like to emphasize - you can't make everyone happy with your life choices. There are always going to be some people who judge you, no matter what, and letting that worry keep you from pursuing what makes you happy is going to be exhausting.

Regardless of your age, your fantasies and desires are not harmful or creepy because they are being played out in your head. You're not hurting anyone, or taking advantage of anyone. If you ever choose to act on these fantasies, you have the agency to pursue them in a way that is in line with your ethics and morals, in a way that is not harming or exploiting others. It's important to note however, that even doing that will likely illicit judgement from some people out there. Frankly, there's nothing you can do about that. Limiting your pursuit of pleasure in an attempt to please everyone is a fruitless endeavor because it is quite unlikely that every person in your life will approve of every action you take.

I feel that what will be most helpful for you in this moment is accepting who you are and what you like, outside of any moral judgement. Once you feel more secure in your desires, you will be able to explore them fully in a way that aligns with your values. I agree with Latha and KierC that exploring strategies for coping with your anxiety and OCD is a good place to start.

Currently, how do you respond if you get caught in an anxiety loop?