My dad told me...I have to have an ARRANGED MARRIAGE?!

[MoonStone7]

Hi

A few years ago my dad told me that I'd be getting an arranged marriage when I was older - at an appropriate age, after finishing school and university.
I'm Indian, which means that arranged marriages are a must in my family.

This would be fine and all, and I have nothing against arranged marriages, except I have heaps of friends who aren't having arranged marriages, and I feel a bit left out. Heaps of people my age are getting boyfriends and everything, and I have to wait till I'm 25 to get married to a guy I won't even know.

Also, I'm very socially awkward around boys since I haven't talked to one that's not a family friend or in my family since I was in primary school: 5 years ago. My parents are very protective, and fair enough since I was abused when I was younger by a neighbour.

So basically I have a few worries:

- What if I don't like the guy? My dad says that I have no say in the matter and that the guy he picks is the guy I HAVE to marry, whether I like it or not.
- What am I going to do through the rest of high school and university? I will be so awkward when all my friends are having a fun time and I'm just left sitting there...

I can't talk to my parents about this because whenever I try, they say, "concentrate on your studies, worry about boys later."

[Heather]

Moonstone: you aren't our first user in this situation. As I have said to those in the past with this, I'll do my best to help, but please let me know if the fact that this is not something that's part of my culture seems to be making any of what I say problematic. I know about this from doing research for work, and also from having south Asian friends, but you know how it is: sometimes a person can know plenty about something intellectually, but if it's not any part of their culture or lives experience, they can still wind up talking ignorantly in some ways.

I hear you saying you're find with this on the whole: can I just check in with you about how fine? In other words, is this what you'd want ideally, given a choice? I just want to get a better sense of your feelings.

Is your family one where you might be able to negotiate some flexibility, like having choice in who you marry, even though it was still arranged, or even make a different choice if you wanted (that may mean conflict in your family, but your family would not abuse or force you if you wound up saying no, either to arranged marriage in general, or to marriage with someone they chose)?

In terms of friends, is there anyone in your social circle who is in a similar spot, or are literally all your friends in families where marriage is a full choice for them?

[MoonStone7]

Hi Heather,

It's absolutely fine that you don't personally know about arranged marriage and are going from research and friends

As for whether I would have an arranged marriage whether I had the choice - I would say no, I wouldn't. But I guess because I am having an arranged marriage, it's either love it or hate it and hating it isn't going to make a difference anyway so I try to look at the positives.

I don't think I would be able to negotiate with my family. They moved away from India after they got married and as far as their life now is concerned, they might as well still be in India because they're raising me the same way a person living in India would be raised. And that means, do what your parents say - or else. If I said no for an arranged marriage in general...let's just say that wouldn't go down well. But when I'm older and if I refuse to marry someone that they've chosen, I am pretty sure my parents won't let me have a choice of someone else.

As for my friends, I'm the only one I know of having an arranged marriage. Every single one is allowed to have a boyfriend, and many already do. But my close circle of friends don't have boyfriends, but I'm sure that will change soon, now that two of them have just turned 16. Other people in my year level find it cool that I'll have to have an arranged marriage, but I guess the situation feels a lot differently when you're the person in question.

I'm just so worried about what will happen when I'm older...will I even know the guy? What if we don't have the same value system and my parents choose someone who is homophobic (my parents are homophobic but I am all for gay rights)? I know I can't marry someone who doesn't believe the same things as me. I guess I'm just worried that my parents don't know me well enough to pick a guy that is right for me.

I asked my parents once how they will know which person is right for me. They said that they are the people who know me best and so can pick someone who is like me. But I feel that they may purposely pick someone who is homophobic because they don't like how I am not homophobic. This is the same with my other beliefs, like how Islam is not a bad religion - my parents definitely don't think the same.

[Heather]

Okay. I've got a lot I can bring up here and plenty we can talk about, but I wonder if you could first give me an idea about your relationships with people in your family, both your immediate family and your extended family.

Who are you most close to, and do you have the best relationships with? And of those people, who are the ones, if any, who seem to be held in the highest regard by your parents, especially your father? Knowing that will help me help you better, especially if we're going to talk strategies with any of this when it comes to perhaps having at least some influence and choice down the road.

[dday76]

The good news is your parents care and protect you and you've got lots of free time to focus on things other than boys. That's worth something.
Heather seems to be helping you find allies and confidants within the family. That should give you the best emotional support in the short term and the best opportunity for a friendly resolution in the long term.
Can you narrow down your location? Delhi and Detroit offer different challenges to a young woman.
One good option is also the say they won't try to force you into a marriage until you're 25. That means there is time to decide what you want, to find supporters, and to put other options in place. And even if you trust them and go through with the marriage, leaving is an option (again depending on your location, leaving may be more or less easy).

[Heather]

(Just FYI, we know her location via her IP address, dday, so we can know that as staff and bear it in mind without talking about it publicly. She intentionally chose not to list it in her profile, which I think we can presume means she doesn't want to share it publicly, so please don't ask her -- or any other user, as a user, especially as someone here as an older adult, not within the age group we intend to serve and privilege as an organization -- to do that when they've made clear in their profile they don't want to.)

[dday76]

I think we can presume she didn't want to list it permanently in the obvious spot on her profile and/or she doesn't want to be specific. But since it came up and would help me better participate in the discussion, I think it's helpful to ask. You as staff may know but I don't, and this is open discussion so I'd like to participate. Moonstone gets to choose what information she provides. I don't think your judgement on her behalf is fair in this case.

[MoonStone7]

Thank you for all the help!!
I live in Australia, but I'd prefer not to get more specific than that

Heather -
For relationships within my family and who I'm close to, I'd say my mum, or my dad, depending on the day. I'm not very close to my sisters - we fight a lot, and one bullied me
I only have my immediate family near me. The rest of my extended family - e.g. my cousins, aunties and uncles, grandparents etc. all live in India. I'm very close to my cousins and we get along really well when I visit them, but I'm not allowed to have contact with them the rest of the time. This is because one of my parents and their siblings don't exactly...get along...with each other.

dday76 -
Thanks for your input! Yes its true my parents care about me, they're raising me the only way they know how. But since I live in a country where free speech and equality is preached, I feel like I'm being left out of the equation, like I'm not being treated equally somehow?

[Heather]

I am just waking up, so won't be into work here for a couple hours. When I am, you're first on my list.

I am in contact with someone who once was a user here for a long time: she's Sri Lankan, and is someone who struggled a lot with her family wanting to arrange marriage for her. Would you like to hear from her, here, too? If so, just say the word and I'll let her know. I already asked her, so she's happy to talk with you, just wanted to be sure that is something you wanted.

[Heather]

I don't want to jump too far ahead before you've come back again, but just to get started on what I asked about:

I asked because, as you probably have seen or experienced with something in your family before, the way to get some influence or create a little change -- like perhaps, your father changing his mind about you having no say in who you marry -- is to take baby steps with some of this with someone in your family who thinks highly of you 9and likewise) who your parents think highly of. Now, in your family, perhaps your mother has a good deal of influence with your father, so it may be that talking to her about all of this in tiny, tiny steps over the next few years will be the way to go. We can talk about some strategies with those conversations -- whoever you want to have them with and feel might be most of help -- if you like.

In terms of feeling isolated per boy-talk, it generally is considered okay, to my understanding, for girls and women in Indian communities to have crushes and even talk about them. So, unless your family says otherwise (and honestly, unless you talk to them about anyone you have the hots for or other feelings about, how will they know?), figure it's not like you can't do that. So, that's one connection piece. Per once you get to university, one thing you can certainly do is get connected with the Desi communities there. The great thing about university is that more times than not, you're going to wind up with more diversity in a school than in high school, so you'll probably have more opportunities to get connected with others who can understand, or are in the same situation.

We can also talk more about your concerns with "the guy" (who may be considering you for marriage) if you like. But the good news is that even if you don't have any choice (which again, may not be the case years from now), there are some ways you can still get some. A south Asian friend of mine I was talking with yesterday gave me some strategies for that (like, for instance, making clear you're pro LGBT rights to said guy, so if he has a big problem with that, he likely won't choose you, and then you don't have to wind up with him, either), so happy to pass those on, as well, if you like.

[dday76]

Thanks for clarifying. Australia narrows it down pretty well, ie not india, pakistan, etc. That doesn't diminish the problem, but potentially other solutions are more accessible than they would be. It helps for context at least. I like Heather's idea about putting out more information rather than less. Maybe the guy will opt out...

I'd definitely agree you're being left out of modern times if your parents are 'protecting' you so vigorously. That's not all bad if nothing else because it seems they care. And modern times and lots of freedom has its risks as well. So your situation may be different but that's not necessarily bad.

From what it seems, you will have limited opportunities to date and a husband presented to you some number of years into the future. But do you think you'll be able to be out of the house, educated, and financially stable between now and this age-25 arranged marriage?

[MoonStone7]

Hi Heather,

Thank you so much!
It would be great if we could talk about some strategies to talk to my parents in little bits over the years about this, especially because they are so reluctant to do so!
Also, yes, I would love to hear from your friend to get another perspective on this, especially since she went through this herself!

In terms of crushes, I'm not allowed to have them - I mean, I guess I am, but I just can't let my parents find out. I used to have this big crush on a guy when I was in about grade 5, and my parents found out from reading my diary, and I got in so much trouble (slaps, yelling, you name it). And that was only in Grade 5!
I'm not allowed to participate in things at school because my dad feels that I'll develop "a crush", or even worse, a boyfriend. The school production is done in conjunction with the boys school next to ours, so I can't participate just because there are boys in the same room as me.

I think your south Asian friend has a pretty good idea! I might just subtly mention that I'm pro LBGTI I'd love to hear any more strategies!

dday76:
I'm not allowed to leave the house until I'm married

[Heather]

I've let that once-user and friend know that you'd like to talk with her, so you'll likely see her here in the next day or two. Plus, she's in your time zone, so she probably won't keep missing you like I do!

I'm so sorry to hear about your experience with having a crush. Not only must it have felt awfully scary to have innocent, crushy feelings and have it result in verbal and physical abuses, I'm sure it's made crushes feel pretty scary ever since.

The other friend I was talking to was reminding me -- because she knows this is half of my family -- that Indians are the Italians of Asia in terms of family dynamics and power structures. That was a good touchpoint for me, because it's a pretty easy translation for me to make when in doubt about getting some of this sometimes. On that note, I'm second generation immigrant on both sides of my family, for the most part, and one side (not the Italians, interestingly) did that thing a lot of immigrant families do where they doubled down on traditions once they immigrated, rather than shifting or changing. It's that thing where because people are somewhere where they are not surrounded by people and places that enforce or uphold tradition, it can feel like it's much easier to be lost, and so they hold more tightly. Sounds like there might be some of that in the mix with your family, as well. So, it may well be -- and probably is -- harder for you with this outside India than it might be if your family were still living there.

Of course, with this, it's a bit ironic since India has actually been changing in this regard, with arranged marriages made more optional -- both as a whole, but also with the children being given choices with it -- and rates of love marriages rising. One thing my friend suggested, if you're open to it or interested, is that you ask your family if you could take a long trip (maybe next summer?) to visit India and your family there. She suggested that for a few reasons. For one, she guessed that your family, like many immigrant families, might be quite keen on that and very supportive. The bonus there (besides spending time there, which certainly could be a great experience, as well as having a little more freedom than it sounds like you have at home now) is that you can come back and be able, when the time is right, to tell your father that, in fact, this tradition in India has actually been changing, so the idea this is how it is for Indians just doesn't hold as much water as it used to. A trip like that might also connect you with family allies with this you wouldn't have or be as connected to otherwise. Just one thing to consider, so I figured I'd pass it on.

Per starting to take those baby steps to talk to your family and extended family -- whoever is within your reach in AU, or by phone -- you can just start to ask questions, and do a lot of listening, about marriage in your family. Your mother sounds like the best bet here. You can ask, if you don't know, what her wedding was like? Then listen. Then maybe the next week, or weeks after, ask what she feels made for their good arrangement, or for a good arrangement in general. Then, again, you listen and then wait a while again. Over time, you can start to ask more questions around this, but also perhaps start to put in, in tiny amounts, questions about what your mother thinks of love marriages, for instance, or what she thinks of families where marriages are still arranged, but only with the approval of the child and who they are marrying. Get the picture?

I hear you saying that your daily activity is pretty highly controlled. Does this mean with (girl) friends as well? Or just with anything to do with boys or men?

I'm also so sorry to hear that you and your sisters have the relationship they do, and that it sounds like there's been verbal or emotional abuse there, as well.

On a brighter note, I noticed your interest in being a novelist. Based on a couple of your other posts before this, too, I wanted to put a bug in your ear to do a search online and look up Mary Anne Mohanraj. She's an old friend of mine, an Indian woman who is a very talented writer and publisher, and I think you'd probably enjoy some of her work and also just generally find her interesting, especially as a young writer yourself.

[dday76]

dday76:
I'm not allowed to leave the house until I'm married

You've got two rules your parents are imposing on you which seem to be a problem: arranged marriage (at 25) and not living outside the house until you're married. This is in addition to your difficult family relationships.

Australian law, so far as I can tell, recognizes you as an adult at age 18. Your parents should always be important to you and financial support from parents is also important. But you and you alone decide what you want to do with your life from age 18. You can, if you want, trade away financial comfort and take on some degree of ill-will from your parents in order to start living your life away from home at some point after you turn 18. And that will allow you to marry, or not, whomever you like. You are your parents' daughter not their property.

Heather is doing a good job of advising you about how to navigate your current situation and relationships. Lean on that advice. I hope you also consider very strongly what it might be like to leave the house at 18 to live alone and free as an adult. It's difficult financially for many young people and your parents may disown you, but you would have full protection of Australian law and culture. You may or may not wish to do that, but it is an option you have once you turn 18. You're not trapped.

[Araliya]

Hi MoonStone7

Heather asked me to come and talk with you, and perhaps share my own experiences. I was a Scarleteen user a few years ago- I was in my early twenties and my parents were starting to arrange dates for me with guys they had chosen. I was also coming to terms with my identity as a queer woman. I was lucky in that my parents always gave me the chance to say "no", although sometimes they would guilt trip me/ use emotional blackmail after the break ups. Actually it's interesting that we're talking about this today as my 25 year old cousin is also currently in a situation where her parents are emailing a man in Sri Lanka who they intend for her to marry.

I'm happy to share more about myself but first I wanted to bring up some safety concerns I felt on reading through your thread. You said you were slapped for having a crush on a guy, your sister bullied you and that you're not allowed to participate in school activities. You also said " If I said no for an arranged marriage in general...let's just say that wouldn't go down well" and "My dad says that I have no say in the matter and that the guy he picks is the guy I HAVE to marry, whether I like it or not." I just wanted to check, how safe do you feel at home, in general? Have you been physically hurt by your family members before? What do you think would happen if you said "no" to marrying a particular guy? Do you think your family would hurt you/ disown you or make you get married by force? I understand that these questions can be sensitive and difficult and it is your choice how you would like to answer. I did want to point out a really great organization I've been involved with called Shakti Australia and invite you to check out their website and Facebook page. They work with Asian, African and Middle Eastern women around issues of domestic violence but also arranged and forced marriage, dowry abuse and honour-based violence. They run focus groups with young people and also have a crisis phone line:
http://shakti-international.org/shakti- ... ut-us-aus/

[MoonStone7]

Hey Heather,

Yep, I haven't had a real crush since, and I'm sort of afraid to because I might get found out and get in big trouble. :/
Actually with the suggestion of taking a summer trip to India, we do that every two years The last time we did it was a few months ago and we got back midway January (we typically stay with my grandparents for two months), so the next time we're going is at the end of 2016.

Yeah I'll try talk to my mum about this in small steps, and ask her questions too. Also, a breakthrough - she said she's willing for our family to get together and watch the video tape of their marriage during the holidays. This is a tape that both her and my dad have refused to show me, despite me asking them for years now. So I'm excited about that!

With regards to my daily activity being controlled, it is sometimes the same with my female friends. I can't hang out with them without adult supervision (only once have I done this), for fear I will look at a boy or a boy will look at me. I mean, I haven't talked to a boy outside my family or close family friends for over five years!
Also, just in case you needed some other stuff that I'm not allowed to do to get an idea:
- Read the newspaper (yeah, I know - I get the news from my friends)
- Watch the news (they don't want to expose me to the 'bad things in the world', but I think I should know what's going on around me)
- Go out with my friends, unless it's with adult supervision
- Go to late parties
- Go to parties that have boys invited (and these aren't even full-on parties - these are simple house parties that my friends throw on their birthdays)
- Drink alcohol...for the rest of my life. (I guess this is okay though, because I don't intend to)
- Watch M or MA movies...I wasn't allowed to watch PG until I was about 13.

Yes, me and one of my sisters fight a lot. I had to go to the counsellor for a year and a bit during years 6, 7 and a little this year due to how bad it's gotten. i would wake up at night screaming and crying, because of how bad it got.

Wow, I had never heard of her but Mary Anne Mohanraj seems to be a very talented writer!! I will try find some of her work and read it. Yeah I love writing so much, it;'s one of those times when I feel completely safe


Araliya,

Hi!! Thanks so much for sharing your views too
It seems you had a difficult experience - how did it turn out in the end?

In regards to whether I have been physcially hurt by my family members before, yes I have I was slapped in the face, on the thighs/behind (where it really hurt), and my cheeks were squeezed really tightly and that stung very badly. When my parents found out I had that crush in primary school, they sat me down, got my sister to sit next to me, and basically read what I had written out loud as a form of embarrassment or 'public humiliation.' It's horrible just thinking about how I was feeling at that time..
If I said no to someone, they would probably tell me that they know what's best for me and make me marry him. Or, they would ask me what's wrong, but I know in the end I would still have to marry him. I asked my dad once, "what if I don't want to marry the guy that you pick?" He said, "no, you have to marry him," and "my job is to pick the husband. Your only job is to marry him." I said, "don't I have a say?" and he said, "No." Great.

Thank you for sending me the Shakti Australia website! I will definitely check it out


Now I should probably explain why my parents are so strict on who I marry. It's a common reason - the caste system. Basically, I'm a Brahmin (one of the castes). My parents told me this a few years ago,and they told me that I can only marry another Brahmin. Only 3% or less of the population in India are Brahmins, and there are subsets of Brahmins, so it gets even more specific. This is why my parents are so strict on the arranged marriage - they want me to marry another Brahmin.

[Sam W]

Hi Moonstone,

Just wanted to let you know that Heather will answer this when she gets chance, but wanted to make sure that you knew we had seen and that we were thinking about the next answer.

[MoonStone7]

Thank you Sam!
Yes I was worried when I woke up and didn't see an answer, thanks for clearing that up

[Heather]

I am out of the office today doing outreach, but at this point, we are all feeling pretty concerned about what sound clearly like an unsafe home. I think we should probably shift our focus away, for now, from what maybe in the future and focus on your present.

Is that okay with you?

[Heather]

(I don't want to move forward with this until/unless you tell me that's okay, thus my not saying more since this post yesterday.)

[redheadcaligirl]

I think it's important to remember that your happiness comes first. If you're 25 and your parents are trying to force you to marry some guy that you don't want to marry, or you find yourself wanting to marry someone else at 21, you need to do what's best for you. I know that could be hard because it's extremely difficult to go against what your parents say, but you shouldn't have to be unhappy just in order for them to be happy with you. I know it's easier said than done and I have never been in your situation so I can't say I know how you feel, but I do know what it's like to not want to go against your family's beliefs and it's hard but it's so important to make sure you are living your life the way you want to live it and not how others want you to live it.

[Heather]

What a wonderful reply. Cosign, big time.

[MoonStone7]

Hi,

Apologies for the very late reply!! I've been extremely busy with exams.
Anyways, in reply to Heather, I was just wondering what I said that concerns you that I am in an unsafe household? I mean I feel safe here, it's just that sometime those things I mentioned can happen. The slaps etc. don't happen very much anymore, it was mainly when I was younger (a child to about 10 or 11).
It is okay for us to focus on the present, though

Also redheadcaligirl,
Thanks so much for your reply! You are right when you said that this is a difficult situation, and going against my parents is something that is very hard for me to do...but disagreeing with them is not an option for me. I think I might just wait and see what happens...and hopefully it'll all go okay

[Heather]

A safe home lacks any kind of abuse: physical, sexual, verbal or emotional. You've described verbal, physical and emotional abuse in your home.

One tough thing about growing up with abuse and control is that it becomes something that feels normal. We can even feel safe to a certain degree with ongoing abuse, because again, it's been normalized for us.

I absolutely understand, especially with the cultural component, that talk about separating from your family is loaded, and it probably just feels like a total no-go. But what I'd suggest when it comes to thoughts about that in the future is that perhaps we put a bookmark in it until you've at least started university. Often, just being away from home in that way, and being a legal adult, changes these feelings and your considerations, because your circumstances will often radically change in a lot of ways. Sound good?

For now, my main concern is with your safety. And if leaving home isn't a thing you see as an option now, then that shoots you to the next sound approach, which tends to be just following the rules and doing what you can to stay in the good graces of your family members. As you know, that doesn't mean no abuse or dysfunction will happen, especially since that's really in the control of whoever -- your father, your sisters -- is doing the abusing, but it can tend to help you avoid some of it, and be targeted for it less.

[Araliya]

Hi again Moonstone7,

So you asked me how things turned out in the end. Basically over a number of years, my parents gradually came to understand that I wasn't ready to get married and that it was really stressful for me when they kept pressuring me to meet men. I think they're slowly starting to love me the way I am
It's hard for them too because they're pressured by the extended family and Sri Lankan community who tell them that I should have been married off a long time ago!
As for my cousin, she is dating a white guy, and trying to find a way of telling her parents- which is certainly tricky when they're trying to set her up with men in SL.

I wanted to add to what Heather is saying about abuse and family violence by inviting you to read this booklet by Shakti called "Culture: No excuse for abuse" (sorry it's in NZ context but ideas are the same!)
http://www.areyouok.org.nz/assets/Areyo ... klet-5.pdf

In particular these parts:

Types of psychological family violence include-
threats, name calling, jealousy, put downs, smashing things, stalking, controlling what someone does, says
and wears, forced marriage/child marriage, not letting someone see or contact their family or friends, screening someone’s mail, their texts or phone calls, not letting someone go out alone or to school, university or work, threats to deport someone

CULTURE IS NO EXCUSE FOR ABUSE- “There are good cultural values but they can be twisted.”
Here are some things people say to excuse violence:
• You have brought shame on our family.
• You have breached the honour of our family.
• Young people should obey their elders.
• You are too much like a New Zealander/Australian.You must respect the old ways.
• This is just the way we do things.
• All women/men/children in our culture must do this.
Wherever family violence happens, people have found ways to excuse it. But family violence is not OK in any culture.

(This is something I strongly believe. Sometimes our families and communities use culture as a way to excuse violence, abuse and controlling behaviour. However, this is wrong. There is no culture or caste or religion which says family violence is ok. Please also know that being forced to marry someone against your will is a crime covered under Australian law- forced marriage is recognized by Australian Federal Police. If or when you wish you seek help, there is help available).