Questions about BDSM and Abuse

[gardenGnostic1]

How do you tell the difference between sexual abuse and communication failures between people who are just learning how partnered sex works?

What's the difference between kink and physical abuse?

When would you say BDSM is healthy vs. abusive or toxic? (My intuition is that it's healthy as long as both/all parties enthusiastically consent, take reasonable safety precautions, communicate well, and have a generally healthy mindset about sex...but I'd like some outside opinions.)

What should I know about sex addiction? How much is it normal for me to think about sex, as a seventeen-year-old girl? Can you get addicted to BDSM?

[Alice O]

Hey gardengnostic,

Welcome to the boards!

It's often easier and can be more helpful to talk about subjects in regards to specific personal situations rather than in the abstract. So I am wondering:

Is your question about sexual abuse and communication based in an experience(s) you've had? What about your question about kink and physical abuse? If so, would you be willing to share more about that experience(s)? If these are concerns you are having for the future, and are not based in experiences you've had, that's fine too! Just want to get a clearer sense

Here are some Scarleteen pieces which I think will also help answer some of your questions:
50 Shades of BS - How to Tell the Difference Between Kink and Abuse
Working the Kinks Out
http://www.scarleteen.com/article/advic ... a_feminist
Want to let us know what thoughts or questions come up for you after you read them?

In terms of your sex addiction question, sex addiction is actually far less common than you might think given how much it gets referenced in our culture. People have really different sex drives and interests in sex, and those can and will change--throughout the week and also throughout a lifetime. Especially when we are new to exploring a certain type of sex or part of our sexuality we can get really excited about it and think about it A LOT. That's totally normal! Do you feel like your thoughts about sex are getting in the way of you maintaining other aspects of our life--like schoolwork, hobbies, and friendships?

And no, you are no more likely to become "addicted" to BDSM as you are to other sexual activities! Liking it a lot, thinking about it a lot, and/or doing it a lot are all OK as long it feels safe and good to you. And if it starts to not feel good, you can address that and make changes!

[gardenGnostic1]

Thank you!

They are based on experiences. Sort of.

Re: my sexual abuse question: My boyfriend and I both have trouble feeling good about sex. He reminds me of this post (http://www.scarleteen.com/article/abuse ... se_someone), and I...managed to badly sexually suppress myself somehow, abetted by some emotionally abusive friends, and have trouble admitting either to wanting or not wanting to have sex with him. So there have been moments when I didn't want to have sex, but I took a while getting up the courage to say so, and in the meantime - not knowing what I hadn't told him - he kept going. Once, he asked if I was okay, and I lied. We've both always felt awful about this when I've told him after the fact. But there was one thing that happened - I had set a ground rule and he kept doing the thing in secret. He confessed, and he knew what he'd done wrong, and he let me tell him how it had hurt me and that I would leave if it happened again, and it hasn't happened again. But it was wrong and it bugs me.

As for the physical abuse bit - I am not being physically abused, but I want to know...how an experienced person would articulate the differences.

And thank you for the other parts of what you've said. It helps to hear that. No, I don't feel like thinking about sex interferes with my ability to have other parts of my life, though it is distracting sometimes while I'm doing schoolwork. (This may stem more from a desire to procrastinate on schoolwork than anything.)

[Siân]

hi gardenGnostic,

You're raising some big, important questions here, which is great.

When it comes to the differences between abuse and healthy sexual behaviours, I think you pulled out the major points in your first post. As a starting point, abuse is where one person (in this case) exerts power or control over another. Kink is about people deciding to do something together - there is always choice, there is always consent which is freely given and can be withdrawn at any time.

I'm sorry that you and your boyfriend have been struggling to feel good about sex. First off, it sounds like it's time to sit down together - in a non-sexual context - and talk about how you do consent together. I know it can be hard to speak up, so how do you two make sure that you've established communication before it even gets to the point where you might want to say no? How do you ask for and give consent in a way that works for both of you? To me, it sounds like you could do with establishing consent earlier, and paying attention to non-verbal cues too. "If in doubt, don't" should become the rule. Maybe it's time to hold back on the heavier stuff for a while as you both work through some of the things you're struggling with individually and together. You can also practice giving and receiving consent with lower-stakes things like cuddling and kissing (if those are lower stakes for you). What do you think?

These might be useful for the two of you:
Be a Blabbermouth! The Whats, Whys and Hows of Talking About Sex With a Partner
Yes, No, Maybe So: A Sexual Inventory Stocklist

And here is one for your boyfriend:
How can men know if someone is giving consent or not?

I am a little concerned that you mention setting a ground rule and not having that respected. This makes me wonder if your boyfriend is really invested in only having sex that you both enjoy and feel ok about, especially coupled with the fact that he "kept going" until you were able to say no. It's ok to call it quits on a relationship where we don't feel fully safe and respected, whether we think they deserve the benefit of the doubt or not. Do you feel that your partner respects your boundaries?

[gardenGnostic1]

Thanks! It helps a lot to hear that. My parents are really big on there being no difference between kink and BDSM, and I've felt like they've been very disrespectful in the way they've handled this, so I feel validated now.

Thank you also for the links - I will check them out (and send #3 to my boyfriend).

I have been known to intentionally confuse him, or communicate something I went back on after it really didn't work for me - at one point I wanted to work through my sexual repression using a kind of exposure therapy, which backfired spectacularly, and he applied that philosophy to everything because, he freely admits, he was thoughtless. We're both wiser now. We're learning how to compassionately set and stick to boundaries, and how to respect each other's, and I feel like the fact that we're progressing in that way puts us in a good place.

And we have moved to an affirmative consent system. It's hard to test because we're purely long-distance right now (due to Parental Mandate - see above), but we're talking about consent a lot.

[Alice O]

Hey gardenGnostic,

What's the parental mandate you referenced? And when you say you've been known to "intentionally confuse him" what do you mean by that? Also, are you willing to share more about the ground rule that you set that he kept doing in secret? Lots of questions! Thanks for bearing with me

Also, you said you have "communicated something I went back on after it really didn't work for me." A reminder that it's always OK to change your mind about something you've previously consented to! Sometimes we realize we actually didn't want to do the thing to begin with, or it sounds like in this case, you tried something and realized it wasn't for you. That makes total sense and it's really important that is respected.

Glad to hear you are using an affirmative consent system and are talking about consent a lot!

[gardenGnostic1]

I vanished off the face of the earth! Hi, I’m sorry about that. Thank you for being willing to help.

The parental mandate is that my boyfriend and I can’t see each other until I come of age, because my mother won’t let me spend time with someone she “knows” is hurting me. We have nine months left, assuming we make it that long—which I’d like to think we will, since we’re best friends and work well together, but one must prepare for every eventuality. In the meantime, I miss him. I miss him a lot.

When I say I’ve tried to intentionally confuse him…I used to have a lot of trouble owning up to sexual desire. (I’m still not sure how to have sex and be myself at the same time—I know I want sex to be part of my life, but I’m not sure how to express my sexual desire in a way that honors who I am.) So I’d try to provoke him into starting something rather than starting it myself, and it got to the point where I’d do that even when I didn’t want to have sex, just to feel like I could give him what he wanted. That’s a habit I’m working on breaking. It disturbed him greatly when he found out, both because he felt humiliated and sad that the experiences he’d thought we were having weren’t real and because he didn’t want me to feel forced into anything.

As for the boundary he crossed…I didn’t want to have cybersex, but after I set that boundary, he would touch himself on the phone sometimes, while muting himself. Once, he even came that way, but the next morning he came clean (I made a funny!) and he’s never done it again. It still hurts to think about that betrayal, but I’m okay as long as I know I can trust him not to repeat the mistake.

My mother and I have talked in more depth. Her alarm seems to stem from two places: first, her feeling that I’m violating her personal belief by believing something different than she does. She believes on a core level that “we don’t hurt people on purpose” and feels like I’m mocking this principle she tried to teach me. (I, of course, feel like I agree and just define “hurt” a little differently. I’ve tried to tell her I’m not mocking her belief by having a different one, but she can’t emotionally accept that.)

Her second source of alarm is some clinical research she read (that, on my request, she’s trying to find so I can read it) that states that BDSM practitioners subconsciously can’t tell the difference between sexual pain and other kinds: Their brains respond in the same way. Therefore, if I enjoy sexual pain, I’m teaching my brain to enjoy being hurt; if my boyfriend enjoys causing me sexual pain, he’s teaching his brain to enjoy hurting people. (She genders this strongly—i.e., “men who hurt women are a menace to society,” which I agree with in other contexts—despite supposedly knowing that not all BDSM partnerships are male dom/female sub.)

One of the things I’m wondering about now is…what do I do if I agree with the research she presents? And what do I do if I don’t? In some ways, I really hope I don’t, because I find that I like BDSM—at least, given what I know of myself right now—and I don’t want to have to stop. And I’d feel bad about myself for having enjoyed it, and bad about my power of logical thinking, because how could I have felt so right about something that hurt me? On the other hand, if I should be worried, it’s better to know. But I have trouble reconciling myself to the idea that I might be teaching myself to like all kinds of pain, since I only enjoy the one. For example, I winced when my hairdresser burned me while straightening my hair today, like anyone would. You could always argue I only started experimenting a year ago, so the neural pathways haven’t become fixed yet, but I have a fairly good self-esteem and don’t understand how I could ever enjoy pain if someone was trying to assault or abuse me.

Part of me wishes the future of my sex life weren’t decided on the basis of scientific research. I’d like it to belong to me, not a culture of people who pathologize it. But I’m also naturally comfortable doing research. I know Scarleteen volunteers aren’t psychological experts, but…what are your thoughts? As sex educators, what credence would you give the school of thought that’s worried for me because I like BDSM? Is it still possible to tell the difference between “good” and “bad” pain after a while?

[Heather]

Hey there.

I can't speak for these particular studies, in part because I haven't seen them. Do you mind tossing them my way? Obviously it'd be more helpful for us to know exactly what we're talking about here in terms of this part of what's going on for you with your Mom, but I'm also just curious about them from a professional standpoint.

Let's leave that part aside for now until I/we can see what your Mom is sharing, okay? If she doesn't wind up finding what she read to share with you, so you can share it with us, we can do our own digging. Honestly, I'm not so sure that even if they show what she says they do that's a sound basis for life choices, since there are a lot of things that some people want to do, enjoy or find benefit them in life that can cause pain (I was a boxer for years, as just one example, and I'm pretty sure it's the only way I survived the second Bush term after the massive depression it resulted in), and anecdotally, I personally know I don't even know how many people who engage in BDSM and seem to have no trouble telling the difference between pain that's pleasure and pain that is not wanted or pleasurable in any way, but still, let's see if we can't get a look at what this is first before saying a lot about it.

I'm curious: this issue where your mother feels mocked or hurt and has a hard time supporting you expressly because your beliefs and feelings about this are different than hers -- is she like this with anything about you where your beliefs differ from hers? In other words, is she generally supportive of you and the things that bring you joy even when they stand counter to what she feels/believes/wants, and this is an exception, or has this been an issue in other areas, as well?

[gardenGnostic1]

I would be happy to share these studies with you as soon as she finds them! No results on that front yet, sadly. When life is a little less stressful with college applications, I’ll prompt her about them.

No, this is definitely an exception. That’s one reason it’s been hard for me: It’s so strange. But then, we’ve also rarely disagreed before, and almost never about anything serious. I’m homeschooled and my dad works a lot, so for many years she was my best friend, confidante, parent, teacher, and therapist. I’m only just beginning to diverge as a person.

As far as I can recall, we’ve had two main emotionally charged disagreements. One has been that she has very different opinions about pain and “negative” experiences than I do. I’m a writer; I like putting my characters through Hell (earn your happy ending, or, if there’s no happy ending, the awfulness is a learning opportunity). She won’t even reread the Harry Potter series past book two, because the dementors show up. She thinks pain is always bad, even if it’s fictional, or—more relevantly—even if you enjoy it. Normally she doesn’t go beyond calling me sick for liking sad stories, though. (I think she’s joking.)

The other emotionally charged disagreement was this: I had a pregnancy scare last year, and she urged me (if my period didn’t come, which it did) not to get an abortion. She asked me to give the baby to her to raise instead. I remained determined to have an abortion should it come to that, but she later told me that if I’d gone that route, she might not have been able to come into the room to support me. She never pushed, and she would have arranged for someone else to come instead, but it would have been sad and isolating and felt like the loss of a major support structure for me.

Those are both moral differences (not that her morals are pro-life—she’s just squeamish, as I mentioned, about “hurt”), so I guess it’s possible that she has trouble being supportive when our beliefs differ. My mom holds very tightly to her morals. She can be pretty black and white about them. But before now, she’s never tried to make me agree with her; her stance was always that I could do what I wanted, and if she didn’t like it, that was her problem. Now, although I think part of her wants to take the same position on this issue, she’s having much more difficulty. It seems to me that her ego got tied up in raising me, and, for a variety of reasons related to her personal trauma, she doesn’t want to let go. (We’re all also upset that I’ll be leaving the house, and it’s on our minds as I apply to colleges.)

[Heather]

That's a lot of helpful context, thank you.

It sounds to me like this might really be about two larger issues: first -- though more secondarily -- her issues around pain or hurt. Second, and I think this is the real thing afoot here, it may be that you two are coming later to the kind of conflict that often happens between parents and children when the child separates themselves from the parent as an individual. And it may also be that your Mom is less ready for/equipped to deal with that because she hasn't had the kind of constant practice parents do who don't homeschool, and whose kids aren't their besties; for whom they haven't gotten to be their kid's one-and-only of so many things. Know what I mean?

I mean, it'd be pretty easy for her to take the stance she did in the past around "if" you disagreed with her when it sounds like that was pretty rare. It also is a lot less threatening when your kid is...well, a kid, not someone who clearly is no longer a child, but someone coming into adulthood.

One thing you can do with some of this is to start, I think, by recognizing that you might need to stop sharing everything the way that you have as you become that adult: you may need to put some space in there so that you can become who you are with more space to do that. It's often contentious and difficult for parents and their children to talk about sex, for example, period, let alone when there are few to no boundaries or privacy, like when what, specifically, a parent or child sexually enjoys is shared. That simply is too much information and too little separation for a lot of families, if not most, particularly outsides cultures that are super-relaxed about sex.

You also can set limits after the fact if you need to. For instance, you can set a limit now that you don't want you and your Mom to talk any more about the specifics of your sex life for now. I'd actually advise that in this case: it just sounds like there's some big stuff missing from the equation here that would make that work, you know?

I'm also curious if you think you might be able to talk with her openly about how you two can adjust and adapt your relationship so that it still is something good for both of you, and that works for both of you, as you become more of your own person, which clearly will include you having different feelings and beliefs than she does. Is that a kind of talking you think you could do and that she might be open to?

[gardenGnostic1]

I think all those ideas are good ideas, and I’d like to try them. There are a couple of kinks (!) I’d like to work out first, though.

I’ve stopped telling her everything, but I originally told her about this because I hoped she would worry less if she knew I had done my research. I want to have space to become who I am, but I still don’t want my mom to worry about me. Sure, I can’t really control that, but I’d like to help if I can.

Or if I can’t help her, I might be able to help my dad—he’s been much chiller throughout this process, so he and I have been in family therapy, comparing viewpoints. He said he’d be interested in seeing the research I’ve done that causes me to believe my boyfriend isn’t dangerous. If he agrees with my conclusion, he, at least, will be less scared for me, and might (might) help take the edge off my mom’s fear. If he disagrees, I…don’t think I lose much, if anything. Could I hamper my process of differentiation if I have that conversation with him? I think at this point I could keep myself separate even if he disagrees, but I want to consider all my options.

Also, I could definitely talk with my mom about how to reconfigure our relationship. I’m not sure it would work—I think she would probably feel very unhappy, and at best would probably go through the motions—but I feel emotionally capable of handling it, and again, I don’t think I have much to lose. I just don’t know what I would say. What would you recommend?

[Sam W]

Hi Gardengnostic, I wanted to chime in with some thoughts. While that desire to reassure your parents is coming from a really kind place, something to keep in mind is that the facts or research might not be enough. From your description of your mom, it sounds like a lot of her reactions are tied up in some deep beliefs about pain, and there's a good chance that no matter what evidence you produce, she's not going to be able to shake those fears. You'd know better than we would if your dad might have a similar reaction, or if he genuinely does listen to you and change his opinions if you show him your reasoning, but he may experience a similar thing of seeing whatever evidence you show but not being willing to let that change his opinion.

Too, this is an opportunity for you, and for them, to learn to be comfortable with you making choices or having preferences that don't align with their's, even if they don't fully understand them (or are a little worried about them). Part of moving into full-fledged adulthood is being able and willing to make choices while considering the risks, and dealing with any consequences that arise. And on your parents end of things, that means learning to live with the fact that they may not, and in many ways should not, be involved in every decision you make. As Heather mentioned, there are parts of life that are deeply personal, sexual preferences among them, that most people do not discuss with their parents because they are so, so loaded. Does that all make sense?

As for reconfiguring your relationship with your mom, going away to school actually offers you a partial framework for doing just that. Have you thought much about what you'd like your relationship with her to look like once you move out (what communication is like, if/when visits occur, etc)? And, on a more general level, if you could snap your fingers and have your relationship with your mom change, what would it look like?

[gardenGnostic1]

Happy 2019! Sorry it’s been so long since I responded; I had to take a long time to chew over the last question you asked. (It was surprisingly hard, and I’m still not satisfied with my response—which means it was necessary. Thank you for asking.)

Thank you. It does make sense. I’m not happy about it, but a part of me likes it anyway—it feels satisfying and right, if not pleasant.

My mother and I have long had the agreement that when I’m in college, I’ll send her a smiley face every few mornings when I wake up. I would like to come home for at least part of every break (in large part because my cats aren’t immortal, but also I know I’ll miss my parents). I probably wouldn’t like to be surprised with a visit unless I’m in a really bad mental space and need comfort—I’d like to set it up ahead of time, so I can control where my parents fit into my schedule. I’ve never been apart from them for longer than nine days, so I don’t know what my tolerance is or how quickly it will adjust or what I’ll end up wanting.

If I could snap my fingers and change my relationship with my mother, here’s what I’d want:

1. I want my mother to prioritize seeing me over being comfortable. She was quite clear in spring that she would have preferred any explanation to the truth, which was that I was comfortable with my choices and had done my research. She needed me to be a victim because that’s how she saw me. I have since been told that I’m brainwashed, that my boyfriend is a “negative influence” (fair, except it seems to me to imply that I’m being influenced into every choice I make, when in fact I am capable of making executive decisions myself regardless of what input I had beforehand), and that I could not have consented to sex to which I did consent. I need her to stop undermining my agency and the validity of my perspective. I’m me, whether she likes it or not.

2. I want her to hear what I say without filtering it. When I said something that seemed unbelievable (e.g., “I think you’re an awesome person” or “I don’t blame you”), I would want her to take a deep breath and accept the statement without judgment, not as “true” or “not true” but as “this is what my daughter thinks.”

3. I want her to apologize for telling me there was something wrong with me. She has taken it back, and she frequently jokes that there’s something wrong with me because of small things she disagrees with or doesn’t understand, but then catches herself and apologizes because she knows it’s a trigger for me. I really, really want her to acknowledge that the only reason it’s a trigger is because she traumatized me. Taking it back is not the same thing as regretting that it happened. I believe that she doesn’t regret that it happened, and she’d do it again if she thought it would make me give in, leave my boyfriend, and return to “safety.” I want her to feel that her behavior has been wrong, and to what extent, and I want her not to respond to that realization by committing suicide, but rather by coming to me and taking responsibility.

4. I want her to separate her self-worth from the outcome of her raising me. Failing that, I don’t want her to tell me about the feelings she has because she hasn’t separated those two things. She became suicidal because she thought the fact that I grew up to disagree with one of her core beliefs meant she had “failed” as a parent, and she had only found purpose in her life when she thought she could do good for me, so now she felt her life’s purpose was being taken away. This way of relating will not work for me. I’m going to keep being myself, and changing what that looks like at my discretion and not sooner, and I need her to not panic and decide the world is ending if she disagrees with any of my choices, because we are not the same person. My choices reflect on me, not her. Acting as though that isn’t true is just…bad boundary-setting. I think continuing in that vein would have horribly stifling effects on both of us.

5. I want her to accept that different beliefs work for different people. If I could snap my fingers and make anything happen, I would make her understand why, but I don’t need her to understand; I just need her to say “if you say so.”

6. Going forward, I want a commitment to engage with me in a much more respectful manner. As far as I’m concerned, my family could have avoided a lot of trauma if my parents had tried to open a conversation, rather than screaming at, threatening, and controlling me. For example, they could have said something like this: “Sweetie, we know you know yourself best and get to make your own choices, but we’re worried about some of the things that are happening in your life. We’re wondering if we could talk about them and maybe you could offer us some reassurance. Or, if you find that you’re worried, too, maybe we could explore further as a family, and you could tell us what you need from us and help us figure out how to help you.” The difference between this and their actual fear and anger is, this is an approach that treats me like I might have valid opinions and know things they don’t. It also respects my boundaries (if I had the legal right to do it, I would set the boundary that people are not allowed to control my life choices without my consent). It treats me like a participant, perhaps an equal. I would much rather be approached in this manner.

To have an actual conversation about these desires, I would need to rephrase them so I was setting boundaries around the ways I wanted to be treated, not trying to tell her what to do or feel. But that’s like…a rough draft of my answer to your question.

Thoughts?

[Heather]

Happy 2019 to you, too!

I'm just briefly sticking my nose in here, but my sense is that for you to have this kind of conversation, what you actually might need is an impartial(ish) mediator, like a family counselor. Just someone else who isn't on the "side" of either of you, but instead on the side of everyone involved -- very much including you -- being able to say what they need to and being and feeling seen and heard.

Is that something that might be at all possible?

[gardenGnostic1]

Semi-possible? My therapist doubles as a family therapist; she makes clear that she's my resource, but she does want my parents to be able to express their feelings, too. So far, my father and I have talked using her as a mediator, but my mother and I haven't. Since he's the more receptive parent, he and I both feel that it will be easier for the two of us to clear up what we need to clear up before bringing my mom in, but we haven't done that yet and I'm starting to get antsy. (I'm critical path - I need to write up my perspective so I can coherently share it with him.)

[Heather]

It sounds to me like you might have JUST the person for this, then, and IMO, I would totally ask your therapist about this. It also is not uncommon for a child or adolescent therapist to bring family members in sometimes so that they can advocate for their patient with the family. I certainly feel like you feeling seen and heard like you're asking for -- and for the things you're seeking in it, like being treated in ways that feel more healthy and respectful -- falls under that kind of advocacy.

By the way, in reading through your posts from the start, and now this new one, I just want to let you know that *I* see you, and I know I'm not alone in that here. You're clearly very smart, thoughtful, and introspective, and you obviously have a LOT of emotional maturity. You have some big challenges with your mother, and your relationship with her, and it looks to me like you've been handling them admirably. I also think you're being and have been very fair and kind in all of this, even though you're feeling (understandably) upset and hurt.

[gardenGnostic1]

Thank you! I’ve been sitting on this for a while, and I don’t know if there’s any more help I can ask for from you guys on this subject, at least right now. (As I said in the other post I made today, I still might need to ask for guidance, but I’m feeling like that problem might be okay right now, too.) But I want to say thank you. It means a lot to me that the Scarleteam has listened and been here for me, and it means a lot that you acknowledge me. I sometimes don’t feel very mature or smart, or very kind, and it matters to me that my attempts to be those things come across.

Thank you for seeing me and making sure I know that I have people who do.

[Sam W]

I'm so, so glad to hear you've been finding the support you need here!

With your other post, since you asked to put that conversation on hold that's absolutely something we can do (hopefully the conversation with your partner will help clarify things for you). But, if you have other questions about it, or anything else, you're welcome to ask them here.