All good things come to an end?

[maple_syrup]

Hey!

It's a long rant ahead, and I'm sorry if it gets confusing, but hey, welcome to the party.

So I've been in a relationship with a guy who's a year older to me for over 2 years now. The relationship itself is going pretty okay, although we're often not together as I'm constantly occupied by college work, and him his job and other interests. I just turned 21, and this has become a stressful time for me because in a few years, my friends and other peers will be of 'marriageable age', which I don't particularly support, but more on that later.

Now here's some background information before I go into all the details. I come from India and it's customary to get married from the ages 23 to 28 for women. The age can be pushed back or forward, depending on your relationship status, your looks, education, financial and cultural background etc. Although we're evolving our customs to become more inclusive, my family in particular is not a happy place for an inter-religion marriage. I am a 'hindu' and him from a muslim family, and anyone who knows anything about Indians know that this makes for a largely controversial set-up. We're both atheists though, but in India you marry the family as well, so there will be many compromises from both sides if it's going to work out.
But it wouldn't be the worst thing if we both had money to be financially independent. My family isn't rich or something, but we don't have much to complain about either. Like sure we don't invest in Gucci bags, but if I wanted to I could very realistically get rich enough to do it, either by myself or through marriage. My friends are starting to be concerned for me as he isn't as affluent, and has a more unconventional family background as well, with a estranged father.
In his defense, he's a hard working guy and is only 23, which is pretty young in my opinion. Besides, I don't agree with getting married by the age of 25 anyway, I'd like to explore the world a little longer you know, like until 30 or something. But the pressure is getting to me, especially because my friends are from a cultural group that gets married earlier than mine, and there is too much talk about marriage all the time. It's frustrating.
Also my guy does indulge in recreational drugs occasionally, and is an avid weed user, which I don't particularly mind, as long as he's safe and functional, which he is and he doesn't goad me into doing things I don't want to do, which he doesn't. But it's a bad look in society to do any of that, although weed is more accepted, it's still not totally okay, and ugh I just don't know, cause he does spend all the extra money on drugs, and I do want him to start saving up, but I feel like I'm asking him to grow up faster than he wants to because of my situation and expectations, which should be my problem not his. He doesn't feel very comfortable with marriage since his parent's failed, and keeps switching with yes and no, and this further adds to the discomfort of my friends. Although I'm okay with taking a chance and keeping the relationship going until I get proper clarity about what I want and what I can be, I'm afraid I'll hurt him in the process.
I know it's materialistic to want a wealthy partner, but it is the most realistic option as far as my happiness goes, in maintaining the lifestyle I am used to. Every emotional part of me wants him to stay, but the rational side that's thinking about 10 years from now is saying that I'd have to look for another, or spend my time with him until I've to settle for the dreaded 'arranged marriage'.

How do we see this through?

[Sam W]

Hi Maple_Syrup,

It sounds like you're getting a lot of different inputs about what you should be doing in this situation, which can be stressful all on it's own. But, if I'm understanding you right, the biggest issue here is that you're not sure if he and you have compatible goals and values when it comes to marriage , so I'm going to start by focusing on that.

It sounds like you and he have had at least some conversations about whether you each want to get married, and that he's given you at least one reason why he may not be open to getting married. Have you also had a chance to share what you want in terms of long-term goals for the relationship and why?

Too, if you separate some of the societal pressure out of the equation, is marriage to this particular person something you feel you strongly want?

I do want to say that it's not automatically materialistic to want to be with a partner who you see as being financially responsible. There can be this idea that love is supposed to be the only factor when considering whether you want to marry someone, but the reality is that more practical considerations are almost always a factor when people make those decisions. After all, if two people have totally different approaches to things like money that can cause a lot of frustration and conflict in the marriage. Does that make sense?

[maple_syrup]

Hey Sam

I'm sorry for the long reply, but I just wanted to get this off my chest because it could be important.

Yes it does make sense. It's just that, I feel that I should be as capable as my partner, whether it be providing or nurturing, and as a female in a more traditional society, that's not mandatory. There are many women that get married, quit their jobs and hire maids to take care of their house, and even their children and essentially just chill out. And although that's an extreme example, I'm afraid of that idea. Like it's expected of me to become that lady, and sure I can work too, but it shouldn't be a necessity, and it makes me feel more like an accessory than an equal individual in a relationship. Which is why I dread the arranged marriage, because such a dynamic is more common there.
But on the other hand I also want my children to grow up with the amount of care and attention I got as a child due to the fact that my mother is a stay-at-home mom, and to do that, I'd need my husband to be the primary bread winner for the family.
The discussion about long-term goals came fairly quick and naturally in the relationship because aside from financial part of it, our relationship has always been pretty secure. So he does know about what I want, and also what my family expects of the person they'd choose for me.
He is also very intimidated by it, because it is a very traditional idea of marriage. He often jokes about how he'll not meet my parents when the time comes, or just leave, which worries me more. It's not like he's looking for a way out of the relationship or wants to be polygamous or something, so I guess it's his parents. And when it comes to children he gets cold feet as well, because he's afraid of being his dad and leaving, and I've tried my best to keep reassuring him that he isn't the same, because he truly is caring, and although he does mess up sometimes, it's okay and that we'll learn and get through it.
I've also asked him multiple times if it's me pushing these goals upon him, and that if he really doesn't want any of that he should tell me. He tells me we're thinking about it too soon, and he isn't feeling pressured by me, but he doesn't know yet because he doesn't have his life together yet, which I respect. I also feel that lately, he's been sensing my distress and indecisiveness, because he has been a little more affectionate, like the way he gets when he wants to apologize for something, so I guess he wants me to stay too.
In an ideal world, where I achieve all that I want to by 30, I wouldn't even be thinking too much about us. But I know things don't go according to plan, and I'm also anxious about my career as college comes to an end, which is normal i guess for any student that's getting done with that part of their lives.
And I don't know if it's just because of my friends asking me about if I'm sure about him, and even one of them going so far as asking me to break up with him, but I have noticed that when I'm back home from college (which is in another city), I think about him less. It's possible that once I go back home for good I won't want the relationship as much anymore and that he's just a stand in for home while I'm away from it, which makes me feel even worse about the whole thing.

There's also another issue, that I wasn't sure if I should add earlier because I thought it would be more confusing. So although he is the one I'd choose if I were to marry a man, there is a whole side of relationships I've never really explored because I haven't come out to my family yet. I don't plan on doing so since they're totally intolerant, and I can't deal with all of that. Like my atheism is enough of a blow, and my whole individuality approach to life also tickles them the wrong way. I'm not ready to bear the brunt of educating them about sexuality and all of that. So I don't even know what's remotely right anymore. Like people who subscribe to the traditional things have everything laid out so nicely for them, and it's not like I can't do it too, but I know I'll be unhappy as all hell, and I don't know if I'll regret never exploring relationships as much as I could have.

[Siân]

Hi maple_syrup,

It sounds like you have a lot on your plate. I have couple of distinct questions here, and it seems like thinking about them all mixed in together is making it even more confusing and difficult.

The first question is what kind of life do you want for yourself? I'm hearing you contrasting the opinions and values of the people around you with your own quite a lot; your ideas on faith, on gender roles, on sexuality and maybe on marriage don't sound like they line up perfectly with those of your friends and family, so it wouldn't be surprising if the life you wanted wasn't exactly the same as the life they want for themselves - or for you. Putting aside their ideas, have you given thought to what you want for your future? And what is safe and realistic given the society you live within? Are there like-minded people around that might be supportive?

The second question is, if you want to get married is this a person you think you could be happy in a marriage with? We can't change a person, or be with them for the person we hope they will become, so as it stands right now do you feel that the things you want are compatible?

My final question is do you need to have the answers now? It sounds like you are facing a lot of pressure to have a plan, and I can only imagine what that is like. What happens if you give yourself permission to not know just yet? Do you think your friends and family can give you that space?

[maple_syrup]

Hey Siân

Thank you for replying.

What I want is a life where I get to choose when I want to get married, early or later in my life, depending on my state of mind, goals and dreams. I estimate that time would come around the age of 30. I don't care much for the gender or sex of my partner, but like I said dating someone who's female or of any other non-traditional gender orientation will be problematic in the long-run. Financially, I do want someone who is able to offer me a life that is at least at par with the one I live now.

Although there are people that are open to the same values as me, they are open only in theory, and when it comes to practical application, they're hypocrites. Of course there are many that just blatantly oppose my ideas and my right to decide for myself when I'll be ready, saying it will be 'too late' for me when I'm as old as I want to be to make these very important decisions. Sexuality-wise, I'd have to go looking to find a supportive group that empathizes with me, because although my friends aren't particularly homophobic, they don't get it either. And since I haven't come out to my family yet, it's a very scary thought to look for people like me, because I might be pushed into being more open about it and I don't quite want that just yet.

Referring to my relationship with my boyfriend, on the surface we are compatible, but he doesn't have all the answers about himself so I don't really know if he wants the same things as me. I tend to have general plan about things, but he likes to go with the flow, so we do tend to collide on long-term matters.

Like I said, I do have a general plan about things, and although I'm pretty flexible about it, I do feel safer when one's present, even if I'm not going to really follow it. And although my friends and family will give me space, they won't be stopping their lives for me to figure mine out, and watching others have this steady path makes me want to have a semblance of one too. Plus my parents don't know about my boyfriend, and I don't plan on telling them until we know exactly what we want. With them it's a one-shot kind of thing, so if I mess it up with him and they know I did, well all trust about my decision making skills is gone out the window.

[Sam W]

With your sexual orientation, would finding a group that's supportive be something of interest to you, if you could find a way to do it that didn't put you in a position where you'd have to come out to your family?

It makes a lot of sense that having a general plan tends to make you feel better, especially since you're about to hit a pretty big life shift (transitioning from college into the next stage of your life). And it actually sounds like you have a really realistic idea about how that plan might shift and change depending on what happens in your life, which can make it a lot easier to handle those changes when they come. Do you feel like something you fear is the possibility of watching other peoples live proceed according to plan and constantly comparing where they are in their lives to where you are in yours?

I do want to circle back to something you mentioned a few answers ago about the reasons your boyfriend is giving for not being ready for/not wanting marriage. Do you have a sense of what him having his life together enough to decide on whether he wants to get married looks like? Does he? Is there a time limit on how long you're willing to wait before he can give you those answers? I don't ask those questions to put added pressure on you (or on him), but because wanting or not wanting marriage (or kids) are big questions and there can sometimes be a pattern one partner falls into where they're never quite ready to make that decision, but they keep saying they will be after X or Y thing happens (they get a better job, they make more money, etc). This can leave the partner who does know what they want in terms of marriage feeling increasingly frustrated or strung-along. The questions I posed are with an eye towards helping you two avoid that scenario.

[maple_syrup]

Yes, I would be interested in finding a supportive group in regards to my sexuality.

The idea of watching people, especially my friends, move on with their lives is a scary and sad thought. Especially since most of the moving on will involve us moving away from each other. I have seen people who are like me, at least on the surface, regret their decision to wait for the right time because everyone around them has already moved on. The pressure becomes much more by then, from family and friends, which has left them feeling isolated and pushed them into making compromises they wouldn't have made if everyone was more supportive. I am afraid that I'll go through the same.

For him to be ready, he'd need to realistically solve the issues he's accumulated over the years about his parents and himself. I'd push him to professional help, but he doesn't have much money so it comes back to financial issues. Financially, I'm ready to wait for 5 more years or so, which is weirdly precise, but I don't know. From where we stand now, I think he'd have grown a lot more and so would at least start to think more realistically by then, if he ever does. This way I could focus on work a lot more than I would if I were single and distracted by romance, but it also leaves me more emotionally vulnerable. The thought of leaving him now is pretty painful, and I find myself making all kinds of excuses for him, I can't imagine how much more difficult it would be later. I just might land into the same compromise situation I'm trying to avoid in the first place.
He's also emotionally attached, and makes compromises for me too, like its a tug of war and he's slowly(very slowly), giving up inch by inch, which makes me feel like a manipulative monster, but it's not like I'm forcing him. It's like if he sees me slipping away, he does just enough to hold me in, and for a while we're both happy again. Is that normal?

[Sam W]

Okay! One place to start would be with your college, if you think it's the kind of space where a group of LGBT people could safely form. If you're comfortable giving me a city name, I could also help you look for resources in your area (if you're not, that's okay too).

Would it be helpful to brainstorm some ways to prepare yourself for potential pressure or pushback from your family or social circle? Not just around your romantic relationships, but also around other aspects of you plans you think they might react negatively towards.

Can you give me an example or two of what that tug or war looks like and issues that have come up where you feel like he does just enough to keep you from leaving?

[maple_syrup]

College is a safe space, but there isn't a dedicated space for meeting LGBT people. It's more word of mouth and everyone is dispersed into different groups, so its not often that more than one or two LGBT people are in a group. I'd like to find groups in Pune and Mumbai. I know of a few in Mumbai but it's kinda intimidating because they seem so loud and I don't know anyone else in them. They host parties which seems like a good place to start, but either I'm not there in the city when it does happen, or I've no one to go with me. I just get pretty shy when I'm alone and there is the issue of safety, since there's no guarantee of no creeps. Is it okay to take a straight friend to a LGBT party?

There aren't many ways, that I can think of, to prepare for the push back. One option is making it very clear to my parents I want no talk about marriage and the likes until I bring it up, but it's going to be hard because it's going to come up regardless of whether I want it to or not, through friends and family.
Second, I could learn to just tolerate it, but speaking from experience, it's not useful when I'm pressured by too many things, because the wall does not hold up.
Third, I could just not care and go ahead with what I want to do anyway, which is sound in theory and will be easier to do if I'm going to be staying away from my parents. But that's most likely not going to be the case, and my mother will be around to disapprove or be worried about all the decisions. And I don't really like the idea of butting heads with her like a teenager again. It's emotionally exhausting for the both of us.

My social circle on the other hand is more tricky since it's a mixed bag, and weirdly it's mostly the male members who are more concerned about my decisions than the female. The women expect me to make up my mind to my benefit when the time comes, but the men get really worried about me being left hanging by my boyfriend, or other guys I could date because of my 'not going to ask for commitment until I'm sure' policy. They find it too convenient a scenario for me being 'taken advantage of', which I don't really understand because he doesn't do anything I don't consent to? It's weird. They also think I should 'explore my options' since I'm young. Which I agree to, but I'm also happy here and I don't want to lose an already good thing over potential good things.

Towards the end of the first year of our relationship, I spoke to him in all seriousness about commitment and marriage and such, which I'd been casually mentioning my preferences to him before this. He told me he didn't want children at all, and while marriage isn't an issue per say, he'd prefer a live-in without the legal bindings and definitely without the festivities.
I told him I agree with the no festivities thing and the no legal bindings part because I see no point to making marriage more complicated than it actually is, but if my parents ever agree to us being together, it will be under a legal contract because they are prejudiced against your religion. And that I definitely want children. It's been a dream of sorts for me since forever, and I don't care if I've to do it alone but I'll do it.
He'd been like it's too early yada-yada and changed topic after I was visibly disappointed but I didn't say much other than if he's afraid of children because of his dad he shouldn't be because he's a fantastic human.
Well a week later my mother tells me she wants me to get married by 25. I vent about how I felt pressured by it to him and after a while he just randomly says, it's alright, I'll be ready by the time you're 24 and we'll go tell your parents. And I had to back up and tell him I won't be ready by 24, why would you weirdly pressure me more. It was strange because I was reconsidering things for a bit, but that proclamation did keep me satisfied until our next conversation about marriage.
I don't think he's being manipulative, at least not intentionally. He does get carried away by emotion, and I guess he just wanted to help me out.

[Mo]

There are two things in this situation with your partner that stick out to me as potential issues. One is that while some people feel ambivalent about the idea of being parents and could easily have or not have children, based on a partner's deisres, some people just don't want to parent and may not ever change their minds. If your partner feels pretty sure he doesn't want children of his own right now - no matter the reason - that's a pretty big conflict with what you want. It doesn't mean either of you is wrong for wanting what you want, but if you both feel strongly about this, it's not super likely that either of you will change your minds. The question of children can be something that ends otherwise great relationships; that's certainly sad when it happens, but having someone in a situation they're really not happy with (parenting when they don't feel up for it or foregoing parenting when they really want to have their own children) isn't great either!

The other thing I noticed is his insistence that he'll be ready for marriage by the time you're 24. It's kind of hard, I think, to say "I know I don't want marriage right now, but I also know I'll want it by X point in time." That's worth talking a bit more about; you don't have to be pushy, but it's ok to ask him what he thinks will have changed in a few years to make him feel differently about marriage. Some people do have specific ideas about not wanting to get married until they hit a certain point in their career, or become financially stable, or until they've "enjoyed their youth" in some way, but if he just has a vague sense that his feelings will change in the future, that may not feel secure enough for you. He had reasons for saying he didn't want to get married; does he think those will change over time?

I think it's fine to enjoy the relationship you have right now, but if you feel like you're needing to plan ahead and feel more secure in terms of his intentions in the future, I think continuing to talk about these issues is a good idea. If it seems like he's just agreeing with you or changing his mind to end or delay a serious conversation, that could be another red flag that you may have compatibility issues in the long run.

[maple_syrup]

That makes sense. He did say he didn't believe in a legal? like court signed/ authorized marriage because of his parents, but he's fine with living with me and like being monogamous, basically everything a married couple would do, minus all the bureaucracy. The children part is an issue I haven't spoken to him about recently. I will talk to him about all of this again, while keeping in mind all that has been said in this thread. Thank you!

[Siân]

Hi maple_syrup,

How do you feel about cohabiting rather than a legal marriage? For some people cohabiting is enough, especially if they have strong feelings about the historical role of marriage in society, whereas for others marriage adds a layer of stability, legal protection and commitment - after all, a divorce is a much bigger undertaking than moving out. What about you? What would your preference be?

It does sound like it's worth talking to him again about children. As Mo said, this is one of those big questions that there is no happy compromise on if one of you really wants to parent and the other really doesn't.

This sentence gave me pause:

It's like if he sees me slipping away, he does just enough to hold me in, and for a while we're both happy again

For sure, there is always a degree of compromise in a relationship, but if those compromises are you or him giving up big parts of yourself, or having to try to be something you're not, it's unlikely to be happy in the long run. If your "just enough" is his "a little too much", or if your relationship is hard and unhappy more than it is happy then that's not a super solid foundation on which to build.

Have you read this article? Should I Stay or Should I Go? What do you think?