Mixed messages and depression

[Stuck11]

I'm definitely struggling to accept that. Because, as the sickness got worse, I could see him battling with himself over the concept of closeness, with me and people in general. It was like he was being swallowed up, and was pulling away to protect both himself and others. When he left the house, he said it felt like we were giving up. When I said I didn't know how else to move forward, and that I thought sharing an environment wasn't good for us right now, he started crying about how much things had devolved and said, "But what if it [the dynamic] gets worse?!" It was like he knew that he couldn't control his psyche and that its default response was to push EVERYONE away. He would talk repeatedly about a time in the future when he'd "worked through his emotional stuff." It was as though he knew the distancing was an unavoidable coping mechanism for him. He said to me, several times, in tears, that he felt like he was ruining his life and couldn't stop.

The relationship was, 50 percent of the time, something he valued tremendously and was grieving. The other 50 percent of the time seemed very influenced by illness, stress, etc. I believe what I saw was real. Not to excuse his behavior, but merely to acknowledge the battle that was happening inside of him. It feels impossible to leave someone in that state. I want to leave a space, somehow, for the beautiful person in there struggling.

I don't necessarily want to be close with him right now, but I would like to leave the bridge clear and un-burned... Because I do think he will work through it.

[Heather]

It's interesting to me that in all of this, despite how pained he sounds, he didn't and still hasn't (unless I missed something somewhere) sought out any actual help or done any actual work that might change the dynamic or the trajectory, both between the two of you, but also for himself. You say it sounds like coping: to me it actually sounds more like avoidance and a very passive kind of gaslighting (he pushes you into a corner, you do the only thing you possible can in that corner, then he effectively blames you for doing that and uses your boundary as to emotionally manipulate you into feeling sorry for him and bad about yourself).

If I'm right and he never did any of that work you two talked about and still isn't, to the best of your knowledge, and these feelings on your part are worry about abandoning him in his suffering -- though tbh, you also are clear this is about your own attachment -- how would you being there with him in this do anything but enable him not to EVER do that work for himself with himself? And what would you get out of that?

I don't think that letting go is burning bridges. Those are totally different things. Even when we fully let go of something or someone, that doesn't shut a door to that thing or person forever. It simply ends our attachment to that person or thing.

[Stuck11]

I guess I see the loss of attachment as the loss of the person. Because why would they ever feel motivated to be around you or seek you out again? Just because you're good and decent? It becomes much harder to look back through your life and reach out to those you've affected or cared about once you're no longer connected to them in any practical way. It's the difference between opening a curtain and crashing through a wall. Like, I miss my childhood friends from forever ago, but starting up a conversation after years have gone by seems WAY more daunting than writing a message to somehow whose facebook statuses I comment on every once in a while.

I don't mean to be difficult about this, but I don't even know what the barometer is for detachment. Is it just not feeling drawn to them at all? Is it severing ties indefinitely?

I don't think my having a limited presence in his life precludes him from growth/personal work. I'm not talking about us hanging out every day or anything like that. Just catching up every couple of months or weeks because we care about each other, and about how our respective lives are going. That's kind of what my goal is for it: a basic floor of friendship. I know he can't be my partner right now. I know he's struggling and has work to do. I don't think he felt able to take concrete action while living with me, for whatever reason. I think he felt too reliant on me, and then unfulfilled, and then mad because that setup wasn't the best for personal growth. Now that he's living alone, maybe he'll recover his sense of agency and responsibility. To be honest, I hate that he wasn't able to do that WITH me. I don't think I prevented it, by any stretch. But I'm sure he'll position me in his memory as an obstacle, the farther into the past I drift.

Also: I would hate it if, for example, my best friend were to totally ditch me at a point when I was really hurting/spinning. If I learned to implement better boundaries with my ex, that seems like it could set a good precedent for both of us. Some problems are relational, better solved by dealing with other people as opposed to getting rid of them.

For right NOW, though, I definitely think the space is good for both of us. I haven't reached out and probably won't, unless I hear from him. Is that fair, do you think? (I'm already reckoning with the possibility that he could simply waltz into the sunset and never say a word to me again). That's about all I can handle. In a practical sense, I don't know how else to proceed.

You asked what I get out of this. I guess I get to keep someone who I love more than anything from disappearing. I've never felt so connected to anybody in my life, in a spiritual sense. I know what we were and can be, and it's not this ugliness. Giving up hope is more than I can do right now. I guess I'm going through the motions of detaching without actually being able to do it--thinking maybe it's temporary.

Before this housing split happened, he made me promise that we'd be friends for the rest of our lives. He said he wanted to be there to support me when my parents died, when my book came out, as we blossomed into better versions of ourselves. I think he meant that. He was talking about us taking road trips, and wanting that very much. We'd talked about making a documentary together. I want all of that too. I am having trouble believing he would lie about it. But at the same time, I'm panicking because I think he may totally walk away.

The loss of him is just too big to comprehend. He helped me survive grad school, was a bravely positive force when everybody else was crumbling, pushed me to explore my career and do what was best for me. (This was before the whole job loss thing, while he felt stable in life). I'm not saying he's my perfect match by any stretch. I just don't want him to totally disappear. That thought makes me want to die... I don't entirely know why. It's like we managed to ruin something really great, and now we're just going to give up and let things flop in the wind. Relationships rarely recover from that, you know?

When I love somebody, I love them for life. I still walk around with big holes of grief running through me, because I've lost a lot of people I care about. They're not accessible to me anymore, even though they're still alive. I don't really recover. I just sort of hobble on and miss them and wonder about them. I know it's life, but I've certainly failed to adjust to it.

[Stuck11]

I'm kind of going through another guilt spiral because I know I've been kind of controlling toward my partner at times. Maybe I haven't come across as abusive, but I'm sure I've done some not great things. I always had this sense that my partner might cheat on me, or might be more interested in other people, because he seemed so disconnected from me at times. When we were long distance, for example, he wouldn't really ask much about what was going on in my life. That conversational emptiness sometimes made me wonder if he was looking elsewhere, but I think he just was comfortable. Regardless, I used to tease him lightly about an imaginary coworker who I imagined as his ideal partner: somebody with dyed hair who was super artsy like him and did cosplay. I gave her a random name and would laughingly ask, "How is Vanessa?" Mostly I meant it as teasing but he started to get bothered by it. (He sensed my real insecurity around it I guess). He always came out as a stalwart against cheating, said he would never do it, that it was entirely against his morals. I didn't realize, I guess, how bothered he was until he told me later on. It made him feel like I was challenging his character, like I didn't understand him fundamentally. I stopped making the joke but the insecurity lingered. He was just so guarded about certain aspects of himself that it felt like he must be hiding. My gut was always screaming that something was off, but I couldn't really name it. Sometimes infidelity became a possible explanation that cropped up in my mind, though I could never fully believe it.

As our relationship declined, I found more and more reasons to wonder if something was going on. I mostly kept it to myself, though it ate me alive. After we stopped regularly having sex, I wondered if he was pursuing someone else. He put a lock on his phone and started keeping it with him at all times. He stopped really letting me in and being vulnerable. He would go out without even mentioning it to me, and then would stay out really late. He wouldn't ever invite me out to bars with the new friends he had that I'd never met. He wouldn't invite me when his work buddies had parties, but would send me photos of the goings-on... then come home wasted. It was like he wanted to ease my mind with the photos? Several times he blew off dinner plans with me while hanging out with friends, and wouldn't even say anything. I get that he was trying to assert some separation and independence from me, but I definitely got the sense that things were happening that I wouldn't necessarily be comfortable with. I never tried to force him to stay home or anything, but I was always worried and anxious that he was "moving on" while still in living in the same house with me. I don't think I ever accused him of cheating, but I did ask if he was pursuing other people.

When pressed, he admitted he had mild "crushes" on girls at work and women in general, but said he respected me at home and outside of it.

Once he brought a girl and a male bartender back to our house and introduced me to them on the spot. It felt weird--he'd apparently been talking with her one-on-one over drinks for several hours straight. He seemed to really admire her, and later looked her up on LinkedIn and facebook. He said she had a boyfriend, that he only wanted to develop some outside friendships, and that I was being overly suspicious about it. I don't even remember asking a question. He could just tell I was uncomfortable.

A couple of times, he went to hang out alone with my downstairs neighbor for most of the day and smoke weed. I felt suspicious then too, even when there was no real reason to think anything was happening. I felt sort of threatened by the neighbor girl because she was an artist like him, and also irritated by the fact that they were drug buddies. I was also irritated that she would never come upstairs to meet me, and that my partner seemed never to invite her. I gradually got more comfortable with THAT situation at least, but it still rubbed me the wrong way. He once even escaped downstairs to hang out with her (and her boyfriend, I later learned) well after 2am while he was drunk.

Around the same time, I caught him lying about where he was. He said he was at a bar I'd just driven past on the way home. His car wasn't there. I'm also pretty sure he sometimes lied about when he got off work too. As he withdrew further and further from me, I got so panicked once that I drove past his job after his shift was supposed to have ended, to find him talking with a girl under the streetlight. I was freaked out and turned around and swore I would never do that again. By that point his car had left the lot, and he didn't return home for like 45 minutes afterward. He then said he'd just gotten off work. Work was 10 minutes away.

All of these instances made me feel distrustful. Deep down, I'm torn. I know that he probably hasn't done anything with anybody. Still, there was a niggling feeling of something being off. But I always felt at least mildly anxious about his fidelity--even before there was reason to. I feel like a controlling asshole for that.

I definitely had my suspicions about some of his female friends, but I tried to keep it in check and never act in a way that betrayed how uncomfortable I was. He picked up on it though, regardless. The impulse for control was there.

He said I held two different standards, one for me and one for him. He said once that it was weird that I felt no need to tell him when I'd be home late from the therapist (even though I usually would give him a heads up). That I was controlling, like a warden. He said he never suspected me of anything, and trusted me to act like an adult when out of the house. But then again, I wasn't partying and coming home wasted at 1:45am. So maybe he didn't have reason to.

Even before we started living separately, he said he expected that I would "spend all of our break wondering if I'm with someone else, which would be SO stupid." I thought that was odd. He also said things like, "You don't realize you're with the most faithful guy in the world, and you're pushing him away." He also said once that it was almost unbelievable sometimes that he hadn't cheated, "because there's a 50-50 chance that any given relationship will be bad or good."

Yes, for sure, I was too suspicious and early on. I had trust issues that I struggled with throughout the relationship. He was, early on, so good to me I felt I didn't deserve him on some level. The trust issues were inflamed--somewhat understandably--as the relationship went on. Still I think my tendency toward distrust pushed him away and led to some of the worsening. He would say things like "Here, look through my phone. Look through my computer. There's nothing." It was a show of transparency. I didn't even want it.

I've certainly felt somewhat possessive and controlling. I was reading your checklist on Scarleteen about potential for abuse... 1) Do you feel your partners must be -- or accuse them of -- cheating, lying or betraying your trust? 2) Do you feel the need to control people around you, especially those close to you? 3) Do you ever throw things, slam doors around your partner when you’re angry? The answer to all three of these is yes, to an extent.

I know I need to stop putting myself through the wringer here. I guess I'm just thinking about all this to avoid the feelings of loss and extreme confusion. He was a good guy fundamentally. There's this lingering feeling that I messed it up.

[Stuck11]

^Sorry, I'm just totally out of control right now This whole experience of grief is just getting sharper and more obsessive. It's going in the wrong direction.

[Sam W]

Hi Stuck,

It sounds like you're in an extra rough place right now, and there are a few things in what you wrote that I want to address.

You're really beating yourself up about being controlling and suspicious. And maybe there were moments where you didn't act like your best self. But from what you're describing, any reasonable person would've started feeling suspicious or anxious after awhile. While partners don't need to tell each other their every move, in a balanced relationship, no one is routinely disappearing for huge chunks of time and then coming home wasted without giving their partner a heads up as to where they are. This is especially true if they know their partner gets anxious when they disappear like that. Likewise with blowing off plans you two had without telling you where he was. Putting aside how unpleasant the pattern of blowing you off was, it takes thirty seconds to send a text that says "hey, out with friend x, back tonight." From what you're describing, it sounds like at a certain point he didn't think you were worth that thirty second pause. Too, even if it wasn't cheating, it was clear something was up in terms of his willingness to be honest about where he'd been. And it sounds like he responded to your worries about that "off" feeling you were getting by accusing you of being controlling rather than addressing whatever was going on. Does that make sense?

As an aside, your ex sounds like he was a master of pulling out the false equivalence: not texting every single time you're running late from therapy is not even remotely close to the same level of disrespect for you and your time he was displaying. Likewise, saying things like "it's amazing I didn't cheat" is really manipulative, because it's designed to remind you that he could ( also "I'm so good for not cheating" is literally the lowest bar possible to set for himself as a partner). I know I'm sounding a little harsh right now, but it's because he did a really good job of painting himself as the wronged party, which is just demonstrably false.

I also want to touch on those feelings you described around loss. While it's natural to miss people who are no longer in our lives, or mourn relationships we once had, it sounds like loss of relationships feels very permanent to you. Like it leaves holes that never get filled. Where do you think that comes from? Have you ever spoken to your counselor about that pattern?

[Stuck11]

He did usually text me with where he was, at least when he was partying with coworkers. But sometimes he would say he was coming back soon and be gone for many more hours. And sometimes I would have cooked dinner and be calling asking him why he wasn't back as planned.

It just really sucked, but I think he meant well with most of it. Like when he brought the girl and the bartender back to the house and told me where he'd been. He wanted me to know them and feel comfortable. And he would send me pictures of where he was, which seemed like a basic effort to keep me calm. I think he just didn't read between the lines that he himself had drawn. It put me in a very weird position.

Certainly though, there were points when I didn't even register on his radar, and he was outright shitty about communicating.

He would be patient when I asked about where he'd been for the most part, but then he would come back around in later conversations with the controlling comments. It was like he was responding to my thoughts more than my actions/words.

I haven't brought up much of the permanent loss stuff with my therapist. It's not something I was really able to put into words before. But I will mention it to him.

Is it normal to feel so haunted by a relationship that's only recently ended?

[Sam W]

People grieve relationships for different amounts of time. When the relationship was long lasting and very important, it makes a lot of sense that it would take some time for you to work through the grieving process. I think something that may help when you bring up those feelings around loss with your therapist is to talk about ways to complete that process. Right now, it sounds like something you have a tendency to struggle with is allowing the grief over a lost relationship, of any kind, to come to a natural close.

I did want to circle back to those feelings of loss and the things he promised he'd support you for if you remained friends. Given his actions, I think those are either promises he can't or won't be able to keep (it's hard to support someone else through major life changes when you're barely dealing with your own stuff, which he is already struggling with). Or, if he were to keep them, they'd come with that same dynamic of the relationship being primarily about his needs and you looking after him. I know that may be hard to hear, especially when you're clearly pinning some hopes on those good things happening. Heck, he may have indeed genuinely meant those things when he said them. But throughout your relationship, he seems to have demonstrated that he'll always put himself and his wants first, and even if you have a strong connection, that's not the best kind of person to help you through big life stuff.

As hard as it may be I think it's time to lean into thinking about what you'll do if he does leave your life entirely. It may be best to start that process with your therapist, so you have someone who's trained to help you if you spiral. That's a scary possibility to face, but as you face it and start to work through the fear and panic, you'll start to build a positive picture of what your life could look like without him.

[Amanda F]

Hey Stuck,

Grief and loss are complicated and it makes sense that you've having a lot of mixed feelings. I think you're still being really hard on yourself. Heather brought up some really good points about how we can't be "the best" partner when the relationship itself and/or our partner is failing us. Your partner and your relationship were really, truly difficult at times. You were doing your best, and that's okay.

I also can be really hard on myself, and something I've found to be really helpful is to ask myself: "What would I say to a friend who was telling me about this situation?" or, if I'm saying something negative to myself, "would I say this to someone I care about?" It really puts in perspective how much harder we can be on ourselves than anyone else. So I'm curious to know, if you had a friend who had been through all of this and they came to you to talk...what would you say to them?

[Stuck11]

I guess I would just tell her that it takes time, and not to try and figure everything out right away. That emotions don't always follow the same path as logic. That it was a difficult situation and she did her best, but that she can't do anything more right now. That relationships are a two-way street.

I'm trying to figure out, in earnest, why I feel so hooked into this whole thing. As you guys have pointed out, over the last few months, the relationship was pretty terrible and one-sided. It worked on some level for a while, but was still not great. At times, I saw flashes of potential growth from my partner--flickers of depth, empathy and understanding. I knew things weren't working on the whole, but couldn't let go. I always felt painfully ambivalent and anxious.

I read somewhere that, in toxic relationships, trauma bonds occur (in part) because one partner represents "a promise to fulfill the other's unmet needs." I wish I had a better understanding of what he represents to me. In his absence, I feel lonely, even though toward the end he wasn't really there. I think the need has something to do with connection or companionship, or being seen as a creative person, or something. I really don't know

This experience really does feel like a chemical addiction. It's extreme and painful and hijacking every waking thought. The need to see my ex is so strong still. I haven't gone back and texted him or anything in the last couple of days. I'm just sad that he still hasn't responded to the goodwill email I sent him last week (though he did respond to a follow-up text asking if he was okay). After 4 years together and all that talk about friendship... Guess I should've expected this from someone who wasn't really willing/able to communicate his needs.

My mom is surprised I haven't heard more. She says she expects something to drop out of the sky from him. Who knows. I don't really know what I would get from texting him again, though I am tempted to ask him what he needs directly, or how he's doing. Just finding it very hard to let go, and very confusing, even though I know it's illogical to keep trying. I know he's probably coping much better than I am, avoidant workaholic that he is. He's probably out right now having fun. He's always been more able to put things in boxes.

I keep repeating to myself that it's best to let the connection go for now, to let him go off and fix himself, and for me to do the same for myself. That he has rejected me as a partner. That he does not want--nor can handle--a relationship. That potential is not reality right now. That he was really mean to me and showed me significant disrespect. That he skewed my sense of what's real and what's not.

I guess my reaction to the breakup has me freaked. It feels like everything is happening on a subconscious level. I KNOW the right things to do. I know the things that will move me forward and am doing them as best I can. But this tie to him feels super tight and scary. It's like being behind a veil, and I feel like I'm trapped here, unable to reach out to other people. It's an awful feeling knowing that you're tied to someone who doesn't care as much about you, and that you keep spinning like a hamster on a wheel... It's MY energy doing this. No one else's.

I wish the addiction feeling would go away... it's so scary. There are lots of passively suicidal thoughts that come up at times, and I'm using different ways that the therapist how shown me to tolerate and move past them. I just want my brain to be back to normal, for old thoughts and ideas to spring back up, for ME to make an appearance. I'm supposed to see my GP early next week, and am debating whether to ask for a psychiatrist referral. Starting to wonder if I need some help with a chemical reset. I'm exhausting everyone by talking about this crap, but I can't seem to stop.

I wanted to clarify something I said before. When I experience grief, it does end. When I said I was walking around with big holes, I meant that I miss all the people I've had to leave behind for reasons that weren't reflective of the quality of those relationships. Things like moving, shifting, new jobs, etc. I have a constellation of friends around the country who I miss like hell. The loss of a romantic relationship has thrown me for a major loop before, but this is a whole new level of pain/confusion.

[Sam W]

Hi Stuck,

Really quick, I want to check: has your work with your therapist around suicidal ideation included safety planning of any kind?

If you're thinking it's time to visit a psychiatrist, I think that's something to discuss both with your GP and your therapist to figure out how that might look. Can you also give me a sense of how your therapist has reacted to your descriptions of your relationship and what things he's suggested you try?

One of the hardest things in life, and I mean this both as someone who's experienced it and who's seen many users experience it, is dealing with that dynamic where you know certain things, but can't make some deeper part of yourself believe them. That sounds like where you are with your ex right now, and it's a truly draining place to be. But you're continuing to work through, and to take steps in what you know is ultimately the right direction, and that's something to be proud of.

Something that may help to contextualize your feelings is that, when someone is in a relationship that gets imbalanced or toxic after awhile, the shift into those bad patterns is usually pretty gradual. That means that, over time, your sense of what's normal starts to warp. That, combined with the fact that losing a long term relationship can make you feel like you're not sure how to exist in the world as no longer a part of that relationship, can make it really hard for your brain to adjust. It feels like a huge piece of how it understands the world is gone. So, sometimes it defaults back to longing for the thing that was familiar. So, in addition to talking with your therapist about this, I think something that may be helpful to explore is what your brain/heart are searching for when they start to miss him, and exploring ways to meet those needs differently. Does that make sense?

[Stuck11]

Hey Sam, me and the therapist haven't really discussed a safety plan. The advice is to go to the ER if things get too intense or concrete plans start forming. I just feel so bad--and I want the feeling to stop, you know? The feeling of peace seems far away, and inaccessible, a lot of the time. Even a short reprieve from it would be nice. I don't know why exactly I feel so alone.

The therapist has spent some time talking with me about the relationship, but he's of the mind that it's too early for me to really draw conclusions about its future. He tries to help me refocus on my own needs for space, calm, emotional fulfillment, etc. For now, he seems to be doing EMDR and going back through childhood experiences that are making it more difficult for me to move through this breakup experience. His idea is to try and identify those, and take some of their weight off. I'm not sure what the best approach is.

He is hesitant to call the relationship outright abusive, though he admits that a lot of REALLY inappropriate stuff happened. On the whole, he has helped me to be more objective about feelings of guilt. E.g. the things I was up against, WHY I was drawn to take certain actions, the unfairness of the pursue/withdraw dynamic that was created, etc. His main calming tactics have been visualization and breathing-related... Like putting experiences in a box and storing them away in a safe place until I can more safely revisit them. He's just trying to build my capacity for toleration.

I get what you're saying about the brain yearning for any type of familiarity, esp. after its whole system of meaning has gotten tied up in another person. I'm sure that's where I am now. After my first big relationship ended a couple of years ago, I went through a period where I absolutely hated to be by myself. That's happening now, to an extent. When I'm out with people, I want to be alone. But when I'm alone in the old apartment, I feel like a walking, breathing nothing. I guess it's just companionship and understanding that I miss, mainly.

I don't really have many people that I'm close to. Sometimes even poor facsimiles of closeness are better than nothing, you know?

Right now, I'm just wanting to hear something from him to see where he's at. Because right now it feels like he's dead and gone from my world.

[Sam W]

Got it. Going to the ER is, in and of itself, a good safety plan. Sometimes safety plans also involve keeping a list of warning signs, emergency contacts, coping mechanisms, and things like that. But ultimately you and he are the best people to figure out what yours needs to look like. It sounds like you and he are working on multiple ways to address all the stuff you're dealing with, which is great.

Since I hear you saying companionship and closeness are what you're missing, can you give me a sense of if you've been doing things lately that could introduce you to other sources of those feelings? Do you feel sort of at a loss as to how to find them?

That wanting to hear from him is understandable, especially when he was such a big part of your life for so long. Have you and your therapist talked any about what to do in the event that does sort of fade from your life without any communication? That's not likely a pleasant thing to contemplate right now, but it would be sound to be prepared.

[Stuck11]

Hey Sam, thanks. I've been mostly hanging out with my downstairs neighbor and going to meals and swimming with her. Last night I reached out to a coworker and his wife to see if we could watch a movie at their house. I kind of explained that I was feeling rotten and could use some company. I also text a lot with friends in other places.

Even though those interactions are a nice distraction, they still feel a lot like work sometimes.

But for the most part, I DO feel at a loss about how to fill that companionship need in the short term. I realize it's about building up to that, but it's difficult when my energy is so low and I'm being possessed by thoughts of the past constantly.

I haven't yet talked about the fade-out stuff with the therapist, though I'm supposed to see him this week. I guess I will though.

[noaccount]

Hi stranger - I wish I could send you this book, it helped me a lot:
www.goodreads.com/book/show/9005.Hello_Cruel_World

Definitely you're the best person to decide what harm-reduction plans are good for you, plus whoever you decide is trustworthy... Personally I can't trust any mandated reporters when I need someone to talk to about self-harm urges, because of the risks of hospitalization, forced nudity, forced drugging, isolation and restraint, so I've had to look elsewhere to find support.

When I was in new england, a couple towns near me had non-clinical 'alternatives 2 suicide' groups that I went to sometimes, that were peer-run and pretty safe for me, I don't know if there's anything like that near you?

[Sam W]

Hi Stuck,

Reaching out to that coworker was a great step, and a good way of practicing asking for what you needed emotionally/support-wise. You're right that this is going to be at least a little draining, especially in the beginning, because it's going to take effort to seek out an cultivate those connections. But at a certain point, you are on the right track, and taking baby steps is still something to be proud of.

I also want to toss these two posts from friend of Scarleteen, Captain Awkward, your way because she has really good advice on forming friendships when your someone for whom that's draining or difficult: https://captainawkward.com/2011/08/12/g ... our-place/, https://captainawkward.com/2015/01/23/6 ... -i-people/. Looking at her advice, do you see anythings you haven't tried that might be worth a shot?

[Heather]

Hey, Stuck: I just wanted to let you know that over the next week, I won't likely be around in our direct services much, if at all. But I've been thinking of you, and I'm so very sorry you're having such a hard time with this.

If we were in-person friends, I'd make and give you a mixtape as the least I could do. We're not, but I can offer a couple we made at Scarleteen that I think will be a good fit for you right now, this one -- https://www.scarleteen.com/blog/heather ... _moving_on -- and especially this one -- https://www.scarleteen.com/blog/heather ... _right_now

I'm rooting for you. <3

[Stuck11]

Hey Sam and Heather, thanks for putting together these kind posts. I've heard, a few times now, from different sources, that friendships can be of different depths, and that that's okay. Heather Havrilesky said something about "a 28 year-old's standards for friendship" are basically impossible to sustain... in part because of self-absorption and transition in life, but also because they fail to realize that there's value in just having people to spend time with. (Obviously she said it better than I can). I think the Captain Awkward post excerpted from that, and seems to be saying the same thing. It seems to require a 'cast a wide net' approach, without a lot of expectations.

In a couple of weeks, I'll probably start going to this philosophy discussion group called "Thinkers and drinkers," but I have yet to work up to it.

This part of the Captain Awkward article stuck out to me:

"But she’s, if not thriving, doing way better now! Not because of my advice, but because she changed her outlook from big picture to small. In her own words: I changed my math-head from “I went 15 hours surrounded by people today without a soul to talk to” to something more like “who did I talk to today? Oh yes, Carolyn! She’s so nice!” Never mind that she and I spoke for maybe four minutes, or that maybe she was the only person I talked with that day. It’s not like it’s up to me to *make* every interaction positive/productive (cf “you don’t have to make it work”), but it is up to me to really love it when it is."
...I love the idea of not having to make it work, but damn is it tough when my definition of "working" is too stringent
....When I first went over the part about the "math-head," I read it wrong. Internally it went "I went 15 hours without any soul talk" to something more like, "who did I talk to today? Oh yes, Carolyn! She's so nice!" Which still didn't feel like much of an upgrade.

I think part of the issue for me is that I struggle to find a lot of people interesting. It sounds really asshole-ish for me to say--and maybe it's my depression talking--but I tend to gravitate toward really intense people. For the most part, I've been keeping in touch with my parents and old friends who are far away for the "soul talk" I find so necessary. Relatively speaking (i.e. in adult terms) I've been lucky since moving to this city. I made one really close friendship who moved away, and another fairly close one at work. I have some other shallower friendships that could be built up if I pushed them in that direction, I guess. It doesn't feel like enough though, by any stretch, and I know I need to keep cultivating.

For the moment, I've been going swimming and hanging out with my downstairs neighbor a lot. I appreciate her as a person, and I realize that she cares about me and likes talking to me. At times, I feel distracted from my problems when we hang out, which is good. But most of the time, the conversation is meh. I try to ask about her interests and her health but want more back. She does occasionally ask questions that show she's paying attention, but it's rare. As a reporter, I am pretty good at asking questions and sharing observations...the skills are there but true interest on my part, like, isn't. I know how to "do the things" and engage people but just find that the insight/feedback/vulnerability/follow-through from other people consistently stinks. But again, maybe that is just the depression talking.

For right now, I'm still staying mostly in my hovel. But I'm trying in little ways to ask people already in my world for real companionship and/or help when I need it. Admittedly, the responses have been warmer than I expected. I don't really like feeling, though, that I have to be an emotional basket case for people to show their real cards, re: friendship, deep talks, etc.

Heather: I did want to thank you for your mixtape articles. I first read the "Process This" link about getting the most out of therapy, and am actually going to email my therapist with some things I feel are not working, and perhaps get us to focus on different areas. Right now, I'm still struggling to manage a lot of death-obsessed thoughts, and need more help with that from him.

I ended up reaching out to my ex a couple of days ago, and it culminated with him coming over to get his stuff. I wasn't really ready to see him, and I told him so, but I let him come over because I think he wanted to feel unencumbered and able to take space / move forward. In typical fashion, he showed up an hour later than originally planned and told me that he didn't need his microwave and coffee pot and that I should sell them and keep the money. I didn't really want to be bothered with that, but arguing seemed dumb. Other than that, things went about as well as they could've gone. We both talked about what level of contact would be comfortable, etc, and agreed that it was too soon for us to be hanging out, but that we wanted to stay in light touch for now with eventual hopes for friendship. We were both kind to each other. He made a point of being professional, so to speak... and projected being in a much better place since the breakup. A lot of "Yea, I mean, I'm good. Just working on projects and trying to focus on my mental/physical health."

He said I should focus on myself and getting healthy, and that that was what he was focused on right now. He invited a few hugs that went on for a very long time. During the last one, I said I cared about him and I missed him, and reiterated that I hoped we could be in each other lives again down the line. He then said, "I think about the future a lot too" and used my nickname and said "we" a few times. It was a mixed message that felt accidental on his part.

I think he went to hang out with friends after he left my house. That made me feel kind of shitty, because it seems like everything has upgraded for him. My mom says people process things differently, and at different times, and that she very much doubts he's hunky dory. I don't know though. I wish him well, but am embarrassed about the depth of my own suffering lately. No use comparing, I suppose.

The shittiest thing though is that the old friendship/humor/rapport is still there. Just with a wall. I can't tell if him showing up was a helpful reminder that he's done with me, or if it mainly sucks. It definitely seems like he's trying to make a decision and stick with it, regardless of how he's feeling.

Obviously there's no guarantee that I'll ever see him again, of course. But I think I've done all I can really do. For the moment, I'm trying to get my emotional/mental compass working again. My mom keeps saying that it's going to take time for this veil to lift, but I'm panicking because I have so few positive feelings to grab onto. This current mental landscape is really, really scary. (It's been this way for several years, but was exacerbated by the breakup). I made an appointment to see a psychiatrist but there were no open time blocks until the end of September. Even then, I haven't gotten much out of antidepressants in the past and find that they create more anhedonic feelings. I am not sure what else they can offer me. So I've also been looking into ketamine infusions, which are supposed to be somewhat miraculous for resetting the brain.

It's been six weeks since he moved out. I'm starting to feel like this level of sustained distress response isn't normal. Just kind of scared and needing relief.

[Sam W]

Hi Stuck,

First off, I think it's awesome that you feel able to ask for changes with your therapist, and that you've been doing research into what you'd like to talk with the psychiatrist about when you see them. Those are big steps in terms of making sure the help you're getting from them is, you know, actually helpful.

With connecting with people, I find a helpful technique is that if I think something is depression brain talking, then it's probably depression brain talking. If nothing else, anything that sounds vaguely like "this is pointless" is usually depression brain piping up. Depression is so often a voice of self-sabotage, of keeping us away from the things that would actually make us feel better. And I feel you on just how terrifying it can be when that voice feels likes its dominating our internal monologue.

With that captain awkward quote you mentioned, it's getting at the idea that some positive contact and interaction is better than none. Too, it usually takes awhile for people to forge closer bonds where those deeper conversations take place. Paying attention to the smaller interactions in the interim can help us feel less alone. It sounds like you're actually taking steps to have those interactions, which is great even though right now it probably doesn't feel like nearly enough connection in the wake of what you lost. As much as you can, try to be patient with the process and yourself, and keep looking for opportunities for more connection.

I'm glad your ex came and got the rest of his stuff, as I imagine having it around wasn't helping with the breakup feelings. Those mixed feelings you're describing are really common when people interact with their exes after a breakup, because parts of the connection are still lingering, and it can feel easy and natural to slip into old ways of communicating. Now that his stuff is gone, have you given any thought to maybe decorating or reorganizing the space in ways that help it feel like yours and yours alone (I think Heather mentioned this awhile back as a strategy)?

[Stuck11]

I'm getting ready to move out of the apartment we shared in early September, luckily. Right now "home" still feels like a horrible time capsule. I've moved a few pieces of furniture around, but to really re-do things seems weird in light of the move.

Right now I'm trying to quiet the voice in my head that is saying he doesn't miss me at all.

After he left the other day after getting his things, I asked him to share with me some vacation photos from last year. (He got his stuff, I want mine). He said sure, but then said there were a lot more photos than he thought, and that they would take a while to upload, but that he would do it over several days. I offered to mail him a flash drive. He said that would be easier, but then said I should just drop his house by instead of mailing it. I told him I would send return postage if that was an issue, and said I didn't want to impinge and thought it best to give us both time. I asked if it was okay to send the flash drive to his home address and he stopped responding.

I don't know if he was hurt by me not stopping by, or what. He said the other day that he was basically ready to be friends, but that he couldn't handle heavy conversations about the breakup. Then he was saying texts from me brought up a lot of memories (that I don't think he's ready to deal with).

I guess I'll just mail the flash drive and leave it alone. I can't tell if he's punishing me with the text delays or what. Or if he's just not handling the whole situation well mentally.

On the one hand, I got the vibe that he was fine and going about his business. But there are other things that make me wonder. I guess it's just hard to live with the idea that this person is probably thrilled to be gone, that he's out and about, and that most of his biggest problems (as far as he's concerned) were caused by me and our toxic situation.

I feel more nuanced about it, obviously. My mom says I shouldn't assume I know what other people are thinking, but this is really hard.

[Sam W]

Hi Stuck,

I tend to agree with your mom, if for no other reason than trying to divine what someone else is thinking or feeling with limited information is a great way to exhaust yourself (and give them more space than they maybe deserve in your brain). It does seem, from what you're describing, that he wants to be the one in control of if or how you two continue to communicate. I will say that if texts from you a bringing up a lot of memories, then he's not nearly as ready to be friends as he's insisting he is.

I wonder, what if you gave yourself permission to stop trying to divine how he's doing and treat any remaining interactions with him as purely practical? For instance, getting the photos from him would be about only getting those photos, rather than trying to gauge how he's doing at the same time. That might feel kind of cold, but it may also help you in not expending too much of your own energy stores on him.

[Stuck11]

Thanks, I'm trying to just stick with the practical. It just creates so much anxiety to have someone blow you off, or be unclear, especially after they've checked all their own closure boxes. He wanted his stuff back and I gave it to him. Now I don't get my stuff back, so to speak.

I sent him a really quick follow-up message, i.e. "Hey haven't heard back about the mailing address, want to make sure my USB makes it to you. Do I need to put a unit number or anything?" And then, "Let me know if this is ok."

I don't really know why these interactions create so much anxiety. I WANT us both to have space and feel unencumbered. I even feel bad for asking for the damn photos, and wouldn't unless I thought there was a good chance he'd disappear off the face of the planet entirely. I don't like feeling so hooked in, I guess. Just super hard not to go down the rabbit hole of over-analyzing. I feel almost trapped into pursuing him for basic things we'd already talked about. I hate it.

I mostly fill the time now with exercise and reading and talking with my downstairs neighbor. But everything still feels somehow wrong and bottomless, and, on the off chance that I'm not obsessing about it, I feel guilty, like I've taken my eye off the ball. It's so weird and horrible

[Stuck11]

We ended up having a confusing, circular conversation that ended after he'd offered to drop off a usb with the photos, then backtracked and said he would but them onto a Google drive but that "he would need time" if it wasn't urgent. I guess I hereby give up on all of it. No contact or low contact, with him needing to at least initiate. It's just hard because I know you're probably right about him fading out--if not forever, for a long time.

If there's a pattern of disappointment, why would I expect anything more now? There was just a part of me that thought we, as humans, could rationally communicate and be vulnerable enough to function. Guess not. Trying to just make the decision and kill all the hope that remains (who knows why it's even there at this point).

[Jacob]

Hi Stuck,

Just dropping in briefly to say i'm sorry that this is so tough. It sounds like emotionally speaking you've been making lots of progress. Mourning relationships of any sort is hard and it sounds like you are going through it as best you can.

[Heather]

Hey there, Stuck. I just wanted to drop by, too.

You know, with your ex, I suspect some of what is happening is that you are no longer behaving/operating within the same (dysfunctional and IMHO, emotionally abusive) dynamics as you were before and, as a point of fact, he may NOT actually know how to operate outside them with you. Or, he may know how, but it just may not be what he wants: it may not feel as fulfilling to him to engage in healthier ways. After all, behaving differently means he no longer gets to be in so much control, including of you and the way you behave towards him. In what you've been posting since the breakup, I keep seeing what look a lot like him behaving to try and get you to behave the way you used to, but him a) having less opportunity now that you've started having some boundaries and limits and b) you not behaving those same ways anymore.

I know that can feel like yet more rejection of you, but tbh, if he's rejecting you more and more on the basis of you doing things like having limits and boundaries and being less dependent on his approval of you...well. I know that still hurts, of course, but I also think someone rejecting us because we're being emotionally healthy people and that isn't as appealing to them as the alternative is the kind of rejection we want, even if it feels bad, you know?

Btw, I totally understand -- at least I think I do -- why you still have been holding out hope. I know all about that kind of struggle and feeling, and I'm so sorry you're in it, because it BITES.