guilt and confusion over identity and fearing "fetishization" - how to cope?

[candikelp]

I've been very conflicted about all of this lately, and figured this was the best place to look for answers. I wasn't sure where to post this since it's kind of a combo of topics, so hopefully this is the right place on the boards.

So, I've been questioning my gender for a while - probably back since January. I was assigned female at birth, so obviously I'm coming from the position of being seen as "girl" or "woman." I first started questioning this back when I was 16. I'd had a reoccurring thought of using they/them pronouns, because sometimes she/her felt odd? I also dissociated often (I've since learned that dissociation, especially depersonalization which I experience, can be a symptom of that). But for some reason, I never did anything about it? I just dropped it and ignored it.

So I picked it back up this year, 6 years later. I started using they/them online, but I don't have much experience with it, because I have no one to test it out with in real life. In video games, I've used it before, which is fine and all, but I don't really have a great read on it. But best I can tell, it doesn't bother me, and I think I might even like it sometimes. I have a hard time discerning my feelings about it though, unfortunately. Also I call myself non-binary. Just non-binary, no specific label.

And then during all of this questioning and searching into this stuff (I've read lots of people's posts on social media about their trans experience in particular), I thought "what if I felt more like a guy?" Which is where things got even crazier. I've been questioning like mad: am I agender but sort of feminine leaning? Am I bigender? Genderfluid? I don't mind terms like "girl," though "woman" feels distant. Then again, I've used it before? My feelings fluctuate a lot, but generally, something doesn't seem quite right. With masc terms: "Boy" I'm uncertain about. "Man" also feels incredibly far away. I don't look anything like a man or like I'd use he/him pronouns, which makes it worse when I think "hm, maybe I would like that!" and then I look in the mirror and have to immediately stop, because it makes me feel dumb and stupid. It just all feels very unrealistic of an idea for me. Like I could ever be trans. Even if I do sort of want it to an extent? It's felt potentially good at some points, but I don't know. It's all a mess.

I will say I do feel very envious of men - trans men a lot, but also cis men. Non-binary transmascs too. Especially when listening to music, there are certain male singers who sound so good, and I think maybe I wish I could sound like that. But then I agonize over whether I'd really want to "give up" what I look or sound like now for that? I also agonize over "would you rather be a man or a woman?" and what all of that means to me. I've fantasized pretty typically about being a girl in the past, and I do like parts of that still to an extent - which make me feel very much like all of this is probably just fake and I'm being delusional. I've fantasized briefly about being a guy too though, but it's never quite the same: that and I fear romantic or sexual fantasies imagining myself as that (I'll touch on that further down). I do think I could still be attached to "womanhood," though that may be nostalgia and sentimentality speaking...? But to be fair, part of those fantasies involves an invented, fantastical version of myself who's more like the typical girl. Like the idealized version of a girl.

When it comes to me in reality, I feel disconnected and off. When people refer to me by name or by "she/her", I almost feel like they're talking about a separate person. Like I'm playing the role of a character with that name. A shell of a person, split into two halves: mental and physical. I often look in the mirror and don't really recognize the person looking back as me. I have no idea who I really am or who "myself" is. It's all a bunch of "what am I?" But of course, that's probably all linked to depersonalization. I do have mental health issues, and depersonalization can be linked, so there's no guarantee any of that disconnect is due to gender or appearance.

Though I have had potential signs: when I was first going through puberty, I would layer shirts up to avoid wearing a bra and ignore my chest growth, until I couldn't anymore. I remember not really wanting a big chest, and even now, I feel like I could still go smaller, even though they're fairly small still. I continuously refused to look at my naked body as a teen - but that could very well be related to a mental problem I had at the time where I had uncomfortable intrusive thoughts upon seeing myself, which were unrelated to gender.

When I turned 18, I got more comfortable with my body by specifically telling myself it was pretty (and it is! There are probably people who wish their body looked more like mine) and at least it had that going for it, even if sometimes it feels like... just a body, rather than my body. I'm not entirely sure I feel super comfortable in clothes - I only ever wear a t-shirt and jeans. That's it. Everything else is just not right, and I don't like it. I also hate how limited I am in expression - I don't ever feel comfortable exploring, and anything girl-like is only ever just fine. I can't enjoy dresses, makeup, nails, earrings, etc. Even somewhat feminine women's clothing (like a blouse and flowy pants) just doesn't work for me. And then in the opposite direction, I'm not sure what to say. I don't want to be particularly masculine either. Butch women, for example, are super cool and all, but they're not me. I also fear trying anything new: I think I want to change things, but what if I hate it? What if I'm disappointed no matter what? So I'm just paralyzed and stuck where I'm at, scared of change while simultaneously dissatisfied.

So there's that and also: I really really fear fetishizing...
I have to confess something and this makes me feel super guilty to admit: I used to watch a lot of porn (I don't think my usage of it was too extreme or anything though), and much of it was... gay porn. Like, specifically men. Not all of it, but a good portion of it. And I feel shameful confessing that. Like, yeah, part of it is because I do like men (it's kind of a passive interest much of the time, at least when it comes to actual men versus men in theory, like in daydreams or fantasies or fictional men. It's definitely stronger in the latter. I may be on the aromantic or asexual spectrums - I used to identify that way - but I'm not really sure) and of course, men often show more pleasure in that kind of media? Like making more noise, showing more pleasure, etc.

It makes me feel gross to admit though, because I think: "that's not for *you*, you freak" and "you shouldn't have watched that! stick to hetero or solo stuff!" Even now I sometimes still think "well, it was enjoyable to watch..." and feel guilty for that, like how do I stop liking that? I wish I could train myself out of it sometimes. I have also read yaoi and BL in the past, though I've cut back especially lately with all of this questioning, out of fear. I can't even comfortably read romance novels with a main romance between men now. I just have to stick to straight romance novels. And there are times where I've seen drawings people have made of pretty-looking men and felt simultaneously that they were appealing, but also envious. I then feel I have to scold myself for the envy, because that's not what real men look like! It's a drawing! It's worse if it's NSFW art, because then it feels like a fetish. Like that's not real!!

Any time my envy of men starts to veer towards a route of "well, if you were a man, you'd be gay, right? Because you're into men" and "do you maybe feel envious of gay men?" I start dialing back hard and scolding myself again. Even when people say things like "well, if you're non-binary, every relationship is kinda gay," I immediately wanna say "nope! not me!" because I don't want to invade the term or look stupid. Like it's laughable to call someone who looks like me and likes men gay. I do potentially have an interest in other non-binary people, but that's a lot more faint, and even then I'm not sure I'd want to call that gay. I may not necessarily be straight if I'm non-binary, but I refuse to use the term gay. Nothing wrong with it, obviously! Being gay is perfectly fine and cool, of course! I just don't wanna invade it - especially if it'd be disrespectful and fetish-y. Like why would I be envious of gay men? If I was myself a trans man, then that's different, but there's no guarantee of that, and so it just comes across as a straight girl wanting to be special, which makes me so angry with myself. Heck, I do the same thing with "trans," as in "I'm not trans, just non-binary" because I don't wanna take up unnecessary space in places where I don't belong.

So this makes me extremely concerned. Do I only have interest in being non-binary, especially in regards to more "masculine" genders, because I like dudes to the extent that I've convinced myself I wanna be one? I know I've seen people complain about people who detransition because they only wanted to be "pretty boys" and didn't like the effects of HRT. And I'll be honest, much of the men I am envious of are fairly androgynous or even feminine. I just keep thinking I'm a silly dumb cishet girl who's out of her element. I feel gross, like a freak for questioning all this and being envious. It makes me wish I could back in time and force myself to give it up and not explore this line of questioning. To just accept that I'm probably a cishet woman or maybe ace/aro leaning. And I wish I could stop having this weird envy towards men, especially with regards to trans men, or interest in things that start veering towards gay men. Because I don't know how to give it up and I wish really bad I could just shut it down thoroughly and stop thinking about it. The guilt and shame just get to be too much.

Anyway, sorry for all this mess of words. I don't know if I covered everything, but this should be most of it. I still feel stupid and dumb, and I just want to feel better about all of this.

edit: I'm now realizing this probably would have been better in the "gender" category since it really is primarily about gender concerns lol. sorry for that.

[Latha]

Hi Candikelp!

I can see that this confusion over your gender has been bothering you, so I’m glad you feel comfortable talking about it here. Your post has covered a lot of important ideas, so I want to start by touching on a few that stood out to me.

Growing up, I think we learn that gender is meant to be self-evident - you are expected to know it when you see it. So I understand how it can be disconcerting and even painful to think of yourself as a man if you don’t match the image of what men should look like. You are not stupid or dumb for wanting to explore masculinity in your position, or having complicated feelings about the kind of man you would want to be. For what it is worth, if men can be androgynous or feminine and still be men, then trans men can be so too. It is possible to be masculine is a feminine/androgynous way, so it is okay for someone to want to transition to being a feminine man.

All you need to be trans is to not identify fully with the gender you were assigned at birth. You don’t have to identify as trans if it doesn’t feel right, but you aren’t taking up unnecessary space, because this space is meant for you. The word trans isn’t a limited resource - you are not taking anything away from other trans people if you use it to describe yourself.

Exploring your gender isn’t a test that you have to get right. You can try something just to see how it feels. If it doesn’t work out, you haven’t done anything wrong. You can also change the words you use to describe yourself as many times as you want. This isn’t fake, or attention-seeking; it is just a part of the process for some people.

I know I've seen people complain about people who detransition because they only wanted to be “pretty boys” and didn't like the effects of HRT.

I don’t have the full context, but I don’t think it is justified to complain about other people’s gender exploration. So, some people tried HRT and decided it wasn’t for them - that is to be expected.

What do you think of this so far?

[Sam W]

Hi candikelp,

In addition to Latha's excellent advice, I have a few more thoughts to add.

On the "people detransitioned because they weren't pretty" I feel confident that that's a case of certain corners of the internet making up a guy to be mad at. I know a lot of trans guys, and none of them have expressed that, nor do they actually know anyone who has gone off T because they were disappointed at not being pretty. As Latha said, even if people DO do that, that's their choice and their gender journey, but I also wanted to flag that some of what's twisting you in knots is that you're running across some ways of talking about gender and transition that don't really reflect reality.

I also want to say that, as much as you can, try to go easy on yourself for enjoying gay porn. For starters, it sounds like engaging with that material was/is part of trying to understand your own gender and sexuality, or at the very least made you reflect on it a bit, which isn't a bad thing. But, more importantly, I'm not really a believer in the idea that we can only engage with porn of certain sexualities is those sexualities are our own. For starters, it just doesn't reflect what we know about how things like fantasy, desire, and arousal actually are; we can be into things that we'd never want in real life, or that might literally not be possible for us in real life. But more than that, I don't think consuming sexual media of a given identity is the same a "festishizing" that identity. Plenty of women enjoy gay male porn while also treating the gay men in their lives with respect and as whole individuals. If you want an example of what fetishizing a sexuality looks like, a good example is straight men who consume lesbian porn and then treat lesbians they meet in real life as only existing for their sexual gratification, or assume that two women kissing in public is for their pleasure, not because those two women want to kiss each other. Do you kind of see the difference there?

[candikelp]

I do agree that people can explore with HRT and are within their rights to decide it's not for them without judgement! I wouldn't make fun of someone even if they did do that, so I do feel like the posts I saw about that topic were unkind about it, but when people say something like that, I start to feel like that might be describing me if I did try it out. I guess I was just kind of worried that I'd be that kind of person and that I'd be setting myself up for disappointment by hoping for HRT to do something it won't. I just get so frustrated about not feeling like I'm "myself" (as in, my body or the person I am to other people) and any physical presentation feeling flat to me, and that tied up with the envy and interest in exploring my gender like this makes me all sorts of distressed at times.

As for the fetishization thing, I do the see the difference there. It's just that there's so much discussion of that being a bad thing to do that it weighs on me and makes me feel really guilty for having done and it and liking it. That and it contributes to my worry about having unjustified reasons into potentially wanting to explore gender or transition. As I said in my first post, I sometimes worry that any desire I have towards men is influencing my interest in wishing I was more like one - primarily because the kind of men I envy are also generally the kind of men I find attractive. I know transition isn't all about looks - those change with time, after all, and not everyone is going to look the same - so I just feel afraid that it's just because of vanity or because I've idealized it in my head, not realizing the reality of what it will mean. I definitely feel like I want it sometimes, but I worry that I want it for all the wrong reasons. And if that's the case, I don't know how to cope with all the envy and how disappointed it makes me that I don't look like that. It would also be incredibly embarrassing for me to try going through with transitioning just to find out that it was because of some dumb reasons, and now I have to undo it all.

Essentially, in my head, it's a back and forth of "am I really trans/non-binary? I'd like to be, I think, but I'm not sure. what do I do about this?" and "I'm probably just exaggerating it all and making it out to be something it's not out of wishful thinking. how do I stop all of this obsessing and just accept that for good?"

[Sam W]

Hi candikelp,

You know, in my time both doing this work AND just being someone who knows a variety of trans and nonbinary people, I will say that if that thought of "I'd like to be trans/nonbinary, and I'm pretty sure I feel like I am" keeps circling back, that's usually a sign that you're not exaggerating or making it up.

I hear you saying that you don't feel like yourself, and that physical presentation tends to feel flat to you. I have a few thoughts on that. One is, what if you stripped away the gender elements, just for a little bit, and thought about what your self-presentation would look like in an ideal world? In other words, are there kinds of dress, grooming, etc that do make you feel a bit more at home in your skin, or that you're curious about trying because you think they might?

Too, would you say you're in an environment where you feel safe, or maybe even encouraged, to explore self-expression, both in terms of gender and more generally? I also wonder, would it be helpful to have some more context for what getting on hormones (it sounds like T is what you're interested in, but please correct me if I'm wrong)? We have a few great pieces on the site, including one that talks about the option of low-dosing testosterone, and I'd be happy to grab those for you.

You know, it sounds to me like there's some overlap between who you feel attraction towards and who inspires a bit of gender envy in you. I want you to know that's actually pretty common (there's even a joke in queer women spaces about "do I want to be her or be with her"). Our self-presentation may overlap with the presentation of those we're attracted to; that's not a sign we're wrong about our gender, or that you're setting yourself for disappointment if you transition.

I am curious; what, to you, feel like the "right" reasons to transition? And what feel like "wrong" ones?

[candikelp]

That's fair that it probably means something and I'm not just completely making it up. I just worry because I can't tell and it gets confusing and hard to discern what I'm really feeling or what I really want. That and the doubts I have make me uncomfortable, and I can't tell if I really would be more comfortable one way or the other.

I do think there might be some ways I'd prefer to look like in an ideal world, but because I'm not sure I really can look like that or that I'll even like looking that way, it's hard to work towards. It's also challenging because my mind can change a lot about it. But yeah, I can sort of imagine it. Like I said though, it's difficult to be sure what I'd actually like or enjoy. Sometimes I think of the way I look now, which is fine by all means, and I can even point out things that are good looking about myself, so it makes me think that maybe I really wouldn't want to change. Problem is I'm not sure those things are really making me happy. But who's to say changing them would also make me happy? I guess I worry no matter what, I'm just not going to feel right.

Unfortunately, no, I'm not in an environment like that. My family wouldn't hear anything about this - they'd freak out and immediately try to talk me out of it or mock all of it. It's why it's hard for me to figure out how I feel about things like pronouns or gendered words, because no one I know in real life would help me with that, sadly.

I do want to take some steps to at least try changing things, but it's hard to know where to start and I fear regretting it. Like cutting my hair - it's long right now and the last time I had it cut short was in high school, and I didn't mind it then (it was fun to me at the time), but looking back, I don't like the way it looked. I could try to go for something else, but I don't know what, and I just fear it'll look just as bad. It's easier just to imagine looking different and liking it than it is to actually do it and risk disappointment, essentially. Which is another reason, I guess, for me feeling like this could all be wrong - like what if it's only nice to think about but not something that would be good for me in reality. But I do plan on trying, since it's pretty much harmless. Another part of that is the fact that I go to a hairdresser who usually does haircuts for women. I'm sure she could do men and probably has done so before, but I don't feel comfortable at all asking her about trying something (I've literally known her and gone to her for haircuts since I was a kid as well, so that's an issue).

As far as information on going hormones, I'm open to that, yeah. I've done research already and looked at pictures of people who have gone on it and listened to their experiences, trying to gauge a lot of things. Like when certain things happen in transition, or how some things can be avoided (hair loss, for example). But I'm always curious about more stuff regarding this, even if I won't do anything with it.

I've heard of the "do I want her or do I want to be her" thing before, so yeah, I can see that... I just guess I worry about confusing attraction and envy. Could be both, but what if it's really only attraction? That sort of thing.

Now that you've asked me about the "right" or "wrong" reasons to transition, I can say it's obviously not that simple, but I do think sometimes maybe I want it for the wrong reasons... like the attraction element, or thinking it'll fix all my issues with personal expression. Transition isn't a panacea, of course, and I don't wanna think of it in an unrealistic way and end up disappointed because I made a mistake. I know a lot of trans people felt like they weren't able to continue as the gender they were perceived as originally, and I don't know - I guess I could? Like it's not as though it's unbearable? I don't feel great about my expression, of course, like I've said, but I don't know that that's gender so much as it's other stuff. It's also confusing for that reason.

And then there's people who say things about women feeling alienated from their gender because of patriarchy and all that, which has me further worried I'm just going through that or something. Which would be really disappointing. But maybe that disappointment is just because I'm trying to run from it (and everything else I've said)? I don't know. I'd hate that, because I don't like any insinuation that I don't have good enough judgement about myself, but they could be right, I don't know.

[Sam W]

This is all really helpful, and I do want to say that a lot of what you're expressing is things I've seen in conversations with other trans and non-binary folks I've spoken doing this work. I think a big part of that is that, on a societal level, we tend to tell young people they don't know what they're talking about, even about their own experiences and feelings, and then heap even more "you can't really know those things" onto queer and trans people.

I'm sorry that your family isn't a safe space for you to be out, even if that's just about the fact you're questioning your gender. And you're right that them not being accepting is making this harder by cutting off some avenues of exploration for you (I imagine being in Texas, period, right now also doesn't feel like the safest place to explore your gender). One thing we could help with is finding you ways to feel more connected to trans supportive spaces (in addition to here), so you'd have somewhere to experiment with how it feels to try being like yourself.

I do also think your plan of the haircut and other smaller, lower stakes ways of gender exploration is a great one! If you want some other ideas for how you could play with gender without drawing too much attention to yourself, this guide has some ideas: Trans Summer School: Gender Expression Gear. And here are some good resources on what to expect with hormonal parts of transition: Wonderings About HRT, The Lowdown on Low-Dose Testosterone

I'm also curious, if you wonder if some of this is about you not feeling confident or at home in your self-expression, period, what if you pursue some low-stakes ways of trying out ways of expressing yourself. Those ways don't need to be ones that make you look good to others, or that you've been told are desirable, but rather ways that make you look in the mirror and go "hey, I really like what I see!" That might help give you clarity about to what degree, if any, gender is playing a role in that overall "eh" feeling you have about yourself. Are there some things you can think of that you'd like to try?

I think it's fair to say that patriarchy creates a situation where a lot of women have negative feelings about their own gender, in part because it's presented as "lesser" or as only being "correct" if done a very specific way. But we also know that plenty of women reject or counter those messages or feelings by embracing non-normative gender expression (like butch women), while others realize that what's behind the dissatisfaction is that they're not women, period.

I hear you expressing that while your current gender isn't unbearable, it doesn't feel like it fits all that well, and you certainly don't feel excited about it. And that when you imagine yourself expressing in a different way, you feel a bit more excited. To me, that alone is a big indication that exploring your gender, rather than just staying with one you feel "meh" about, will probably benefit you in the long run. But, more importantly, at the end of the day, no one else gets a vote on what your gender really is; that's a decision you get to make, based on what feels right to you.