ready to date

[sky]

Just adding that that wasn’t meant as me trying to argue I just want to be clear that I may have internalized homophobia but no one can say I’m transphobic. That’s something I have never been or will ever stand for. If it ever came off that I had insinuated that, it was NEVER the intention.

[Latha]

Hi Sky!

I understand that you had no intention to be transphobic. It isn't disrespectful to be in lesbian/sapphic spaces when you are curious about penises. Since there are sapphic women who have a penis, you may well be able to explore that interest with them. We should only remember that just because someone has a specific body part, that doesn't mean they will want to have certain kinds of sex with that body part. (E.g. Just because a person has a penis, that doesn't mean they will want to have PIV sex with that penis.)

Re: the last paragraph of Sam's post — did you have any thoughts about which step you might like to focus on?

[sky]

I completely understand that but even manual or oral, I don’t want anything to do with a penis is my point I’m trying to make. I have a curiosity but I don’t want anything to do with them.

I don’t know, it’s all overwhelming to me.

[Heather]

Just to be clear, what Sam was trying to remind you of is that trans women were born with a penis, and many still will have one (though many also will not call it that). Thus, some women themselves have a penis.

[Heather]

Per steps, would you do something for us? Can you cut and paste one or two of your bios from apps? If you do want them to work for you, then it may be that part of why they aren’t so far is that your bios may need some tweaking.

[Heather]

A few more things! I feel certain I have told you this before, but you are not actually old to be coming out. The average age of coming out was around 26 for Gen X folks and Millennials, and it’s only a few years younger than that for people your age.

So, please know and accept that many other queer who are dating or who you might meet in a queer bar will not actually have been at this any longer than you. Many of them will be as new to it as you are. Many queer people your same age will also be struggling with loneliness and belonging: these are historically common LGBTQ struggles. None of this is just you, not even close.

Too, very few lesbians are gold star lesbians. Sapphic or lesbian doesn’t and has never meant people who have never or will not ever be sexual or romantic with or attracted to men and/or people with a penis. It does now and has only ever meant women whose attractions are centered on or primarily to other women.

[Heather]

I got — and also forwarded to Sam — the one profile you sent us. We both have thoughts!

Am I right in that you have that one set just to looking for friends? If so, is that what you actually want, rather than a dating relationship?

[sky]

I didn’t realize that it was friends only lol I’m gonna change it to relationship as well.

What’s the thoughts? I’m silly and have no chance, I know I know..

[sky]

I just want to say something, I feel like if something is so scary and makes me feel so uncomfortable, it can’t be good for me right? Like dating makes me so scared and like being intimate with girls or anyone really, makes me very uncomfortable to think about.

When I’m in the situations of being in queer spaces, what do i do? Like am I just talking to people? Am I kissing them? What am I doing?

[Latha]

Hi Sky,

Don’t worry, Heather and Sam are very nice people — they may provide advice on your profile, but I can’t imagine them saying that you have no chance. That would be mean, and it is also untrue. It is okay to want reassurance, but do you see how this is an example of negative self talk? You may feel silly, but that doesn’t mean you actually are, or that other people will see you that way.

Being in queer spaces doesn’t mean you will be expected to engage with people sexually. It just means that you will meet other people who are queer. Especially at the beginning, the goal might just be to talk to people and get to know them. You don't have to date if you don't feel ready, but I think spending time in queer positive spaces may help you with your fears of not fitting in and some of the shame you feel around sexuality.

[Heather]

100% to everything that Latha just said there.

I also want to address this:

I feel like if something is so scary and makes me feel so uncomfortable, it can’t be good for me right? Like dating makes me so scared and like being intimate with girls or anyone really, makes me very uncomfortable to think about.

That depends on if the thing you are scared of itself is good for you or not. Feeling uncomfortable or even scared all by itself isn't an indicator of if something is or isn't good for us, especially when we are talking about things where our culture or experiences have manufactured fears in us that shouldn't actually be there. For example, internalized homophobia is at the root of a lot of these fears, and that's only there because anti-gay assholes and an anti-gay world put it in there. Not only is pushing yourself past fear and discomforts created by bias and bigotry not bad for you, it is far, far healthier than letting those feelings control you, which was the whole intent of their manufacture. Consider, too, that some people and things you really should have been scared of you haven't been, so you have to know that when it comes to a lot of this stuff, anyway, your fears and where they are happening are a lil busted.

Knowing what I know about you, I don't think most of these fears or discomforts are signals not to do what you are afraid of, I think they are barriers to you living your life. I think you are seriously, seriously stuck in them and that doing things like going into queer spaces and going on some dates anyway despite feeling uncomfortable or afraid would be the best thing for you, not the worst. I also think some of those fears are about holding on to false beliefs around so much of this -- about gender, about queerness, about sex -- that you don't want to address the reality of, probably in large part because after all these years of talking, some of your brain has to know how false they are and that the realities are simply much more complex. I think that feels intimidating to you.

But again, well heck, I know you appreciate what we do here at Scarleteen, so know that when I first got started doing this and was thrust really quickly into the public eye I was terrified. It's not something I felt ready for or even really wanted, but I think we can all agree that my pushing myself to take a positive risk with it benefitted a whole lot of people, and obviously created a unique space for me to be me in the world (very much including as a queer person) that I wouldn't have had otherwise.

That all said, these are also excellent avenues to explore with your therapist. I'd ask to talk about how to get yourself unstuck with some of this and how to identify fear showing you danger and fear that is instead holding you back, and how to try some things anyway that scare you that are good for you (for instance, I can see exposure therapy around germs being beneficial for you).

[Heather]

With the apps, here is my advice in a nutshell:
• HER tends to be one of the least-used apps, so personally, that would be my last pick for you. I certainly wouldn't make it your one and only. I'd suggest adding Feeld and Hinge (this isn't a product endorsement, this is just me helping you narrow things down to which populations tend to be using what apps). And by all means, on any of the apps, you have to make sure you are taking your time and picking what you are actually looking for and offering: if you are looking for dating or sexual relationships, put those things, not new friends.
• With the one you shared, there was a question where it asked what you have to offer someone else, and you'd centered your answer on making someone feel pretty. For more people than not, that's not something that is going to be the biggest thing they want from a partner, because it's just not a particularly big offering. On the other hand, over the years, I have heard you talk a lot about how you want to offer someone emotional and physical affection, how you want to do the mundane things of life with someone together and have them be sparky, not mundane, as a result, about how you want to really be there for someone else. These kinds of things are much better, richer, things to offer someone than something about someone's physical appearance. I'd think about these kinds of things when answering prompts like that.
• In your about me, you talked about things you like and don't, but most of those were on the surface -- I didn't see anything in "about you" that really talked about who you are as a person in any deeper ways. Those kinds of things won't make or break a relationship, so again, I'd dig a little deeper. I'd say some more rich, honest stuff about you: like that you're sober, for instance, that you caretake your grandparents, that you are ready to fall in love with someone, that you are in therapy (always a star in anyone's book since it means you already know we all need to work on yourself and you are already doing that), some dream you have for your life, etc.

[sky]

I don’t really want to do this I don’t think. I do want to find my person but I really hate having to put myself out there so intensely, I don’t know anything deep about me so how would I post it and what I do know, it’s like personal you know? Something I would tell the person I’m talking to not just anyone on the app.

I am really deeply afraid of getting my heart broken. I know it’s a common fear and I’m not alone in it but it’s so strong that I just don’t want to fall for someone just to feel like shit after and be hurt.

I don’t think anything would make me not think about the fact that once someone’s inside they are always inside, that the fluids are everywhere even if you can’t see them and like then you just sleep on the bed that there’s all that stuff on it???? No thank you, I will have to pass even though it’s something I want so so bad. I think if we were on a towel it would help but then it’s like you’re fingering someone and then you touch the doorknob to go out of the room and it’s like regardless the stuff is everywhere and no matter how you have sex it’s literally everywhere. Does that make any sense?

Back to what latha said, i understand I don’t have to be sexual with them in queer spaces but what do I talk about. No one has told me anything about what we do. Like I walk in alone and just stand there and go up to someone like oh how about them Yankees. Like what the hell do I do there???

I am trying hard to speak and not just shut down and stuff now, if there’s anything that doesn’t make sense that I’ve said please let me know. I feel open at this moment and am ready to have hard conversations

[Sam W]

Hi Sky,

I'm going to focus on the dating app stuff, and the meeting people stuff, because everything else right now is steering that conversation back towards the theoretical rather than the concrete.

Being vulnerable is scary, especially when it's something we're not used to doing in a certain context, or when it's something we've been penalized for in the past. But as you say yourself, the only way to find a partner, or to connect with them, is going to involve being vulnerable. That's one of those parts of life where we can spend all our time and energy cursing the heavens for the fact we have to do a thing that scares us, or we can take the steps to actually do the dang thing. And, often, taking those steps ends up being less scary than the thing we've built up in our heads, you know?

Too, it may help to reframe Heather's suggestions in your own mind. Right now, you're having that gut reaction of "this is too much and too personal." But part of why Heather is suggesting what they are is that those kinds of details aren't baring your soul or sharing your deepest darkest fears and secrets; they're details that flesh out the picture the other person is forming of you in their head. With the details you have listed right now, there isn't much to add any color to that picture, so people are just going to go "eh" and move on. With the details Heather listed, they're telling people things about you and your life that might fill in that picture enough that people are intrigued and want to talk with you more.

With what to do in queer spaces, literally every queer space I can think of has events, groups, etc that are dedicated to a specific topic or activity. Those are often less intimidating to start out with than a more general meet-up because there's something people are already doing or talking about that can act as an opener. Beyond that, it's often a matter of asking people questions about themselves and then actively listening to the answer and continuing the conversation with genuine curiosity; being warm and interested in what people have to say tends to be a lot more useful than sticking to a specific set of conversational rules or topics.

[sky]

Okay, I’ll change it, idk what to put but I’ll work on it. This is all really scary and idk how people do this, I really don’t understand why people choose to do this and I wanna not want someone. I don’t wanna do this. It’s so scary, I really don’t want to hurt someone or get hurt myself, which is why I keep up so much. I keep up walls to make myself not able to be close too for a long time. I don’t even know if I want the love of my life or if I just want to have sex and not see the person again.

I don’t know. I want to be open but then I realize my heart will get broken and I don’t wanna let anyone do that to me. If I have just sex then I get touch and intimacy and it won’t be such a long term investment to get hurt.

I have been talking to a girl for 2 or 3 days now, she’s cute and nice. I just don’t know what I want with this situation. I would go on a date eventually if we kept talking but it’s like why? I don’t have anything to offer except making them laugh and feel pretty because she is pretty and I want her to know that. Idk what else I would provide, I’m a chronically ill person who never knows what the day will bring. I know people date as chronically ill all the time and that is so wonderful but I don’t know what the day will bring, I feel very unreliable. You know it’s like you plan a date for 2 days, well in 2 days i could wake up and not be able to move. I have to see another specialist, but besides that. What do I have to offer if they want more then what I said.

I have talked about this in therapy some and it’s like, I like someone, but if I really like them I realize they deserve more than me. And so I let them go because they deserve more. Then the other part is, they gave every single girl in the city who is on there at their finger tips, why the hell would they want me. Why would they pick me. My therapist keeps getting on me that I need to work on my self esteem, and not doing negative self talk and then it’s like I say these things and she’s like no negative self talk and it’s like THAT IS HOW I FEEL. How am I supposed to express how I feel if I can’t “negative self talk”. I get so frustrated and then I just shut down with her.

And it’s like at the end of every single thought process is sex. That’s all I think about at the end of the day. Everyday, all day long it’s right there, I think about it, dream about it, make up moments in my mind of what I want. Etc. it’s ruining my life not being able to stop being so horny.

[sky]

I like this girl, and I’m wanting to stop talking to her even though we haven’t made any plans for a date, or even talked if we want to be in a relationship. I have convinced myself girls having sex with girls is boring and I’m going to be unsatisfied by it.

I could use more friends so I’m continuing to talk to her. I do like her though but I don’t know how I’ll have fun/nice sex. So I’m just torn but I notice that I do this everytime I feel attraction to a girl, I think of all the reasons why I’m not lesbian because of all the ways I dream of being with a man and talk myself into wanting men.

I do this every time because I don’t wanna be with a girl but all I want is to be with one. And like I think the sex is boring but then I watch lesbian porn and it looks sooooo good but then you all say porn isn’t real so then I don’t know what I think. Does that make any sense??? I’m so fucking stressed out about this, it’s unreal.

Edited to add that if the person I am seeing wants sex and we are monogamous then sex is something I will make happen for her, I just don’t wanna be bored by it.

I am going to make an appointment with a gynecologist to see about birth control or something to make me less horny. I don’t know what to say in order for her to understand how deep this goes for me and how I want it to just be a regular amount. Like I want to only experience this when I’m with someone, I have done research and I don’t really see anything but they make stuff to make you feel sexual arousal, they maybe have something to keep it at ease that I don’t know about. Can you explain how I can bring this topic up to her without sounding ridiculous?

[Sam W]

Hi Sky,

So, in these last two posts, you've hit on a lot of points. Here is a summary of my understanding of the main ones:
-You're still conflicted about the fact that to have a relationship means opening yourself up to the potential to be hurt, and feel sex is some way of getting around that risk while still getting intimacy.
-You're currently talking to someone you're interested in, but those negative beliefs about yourself are playing really loudly in your head.
-Your therapist has noticed negative self-talk is pattern for you and is actively pushing back on it (this is actually a common approach if a client struggles with that kind of mindset).
-You feel like being horny is ruining your life, to the point that you're considering going on birth control of some form in an attempt to control it.
-You're still struggling with those internalized, homophobic messages about lesbian sex being "boring" and with your own fears that you're someone not a "real" lesbian (I might go back and read what Heather said about "gold star" lesbians up thread) to the point that you're talking yourself out of continuing a casual conversation with this person you've been talking to.

That's a LOT of topics for two posts, and it feels like what often happens when we get into a subject where next steps are tough for you, or where you're not happy with the answers you've been getting, which in turn makes it harder to make any progress on the things you're trying to work on. So, for the time being, let's stick to topics and responses that keep us in that conversation we were having, okay?

I feel like a big thing to note on the dating front is that you've been talking to someone! So even with a profile that could use some polish, you're finding people who're interested in connecting with you. That suggests that if you did take the time to craft a profile where more of your personality shines through, you'd have decent luck finding people who are at least interested in chatting with you. How about making it your goal for this week to at least update one or two of the bigger sections in those dating profiles so it's a bit more fleshed-out?

Too, have you had a chance to look at the queer spaces in your area and see if there are any that are hosting events, meet-ups, etc, that you think would be fun to attend?

[sky]

I’ve glanced, and I feel like I’ve said it so many times that I’m just not wanting to right now. I don’t belong there and I just don’t want to right now.

You all keep suggesting it but haven’t told me what to talk about or what to do or how do I dress, like no one can tell me anything about it and it’s just something that’s too much anxiety for me.

[sky]

I really don’t feel like I belong there and politely ask if you all can stop asking me about that.

[Heather]

I have talked with you in chat before about things like how to dress (the answer is that there is no answer to that, because you dress the way you want to), or what to do (also not a thing with an answer because it depends on what the event is and who you are talking to) but by all means, we will stop asking about this. The thing is, these are the ways you meet other queer people outside the apps, so if you’re not open to this, and you don’t have other queer friends who could introduce you to people, then the apps are your only real option, and then those will be what we need to talk about if you are asking for our help in meeting people.

[sky]

I’m just feeling a lot of pressure. I’m feeling pressure from myself and society to have sex, with a man. I’m feeling pressure from you all here to meet queer people. I’m feeling pressure from you all here to not be with a man. I’m feeling pressure from my therapist to do this trauma therapy.

Im just not ready for any of these things and I’m incredibly overwhelmed by it all and I’m not being pressured at all by these examples (especially you guys) it just feels like I am and it’s a LOT.

I truly don’t know how to understand in my head that I like girls and it’s okay because I’m really struggling with being an adult and people seeing me and thinking like oh she likes vagina, oh she’s touched one because she’s a lesbian look at her she’s a lesbian with her girlfriend. I don’t know why that’s such a hard thought for me to have but I don’t want anyone to perceive me at all and if they do, I wanna be straight in their head. But I’m proud to be a woman and I’m proud to be a woman who likes women we are incredible humans. But I don’t want to LIKE them. Does that make sense. I feel like it doesn’t at all but I don’t know how else to explain it and no one understands it and I feel so so alone and isolated in this feeling.

[Heather]

This is an excellent place, I think, for us to revisit what you are looking for from these interactions with us.

It's you who have asked, for years now, for help meeting people, so if that is not something you want from us, then by all means, let's stop talking about that. We only are because you have asked us to. No one here cares, at all, the gender of person you choose to be with. In fact, in years of talking with you about this, I can say very confidently that is something you care about more than anyone else. So, that pressure sounds more like you than us, too, so if you want that pressure off, then by all means, I suggest you do whatever you can to do that.

I also hear this coming back round to something you and I have talked about in chat and on the boards for years, which is that you have a lot -- A LOT -- of internalized homophobia and a lot of compulsory heterosexuality in your head. But, as we have also talked about, you've been very resistant to truly naming and acknowledging that, and then seeking express help with that, which is one kind of help we could give you. Because yes, how you are thinking does make sense because that kind of thinking is a textbook result of homophobia and comphet. It is exactly the kind of thinking it intends to create. I understand this: I have been one of the primary people over the years telling you this and naming this for you. You are not only not alone in this feeling, this is something almost all queer people of any variety struggle with BECAUSE so few can not have been impacted by the profound amount of homophobia and comphet in our worlds and lives. If you said, to other queer people, "I love women but I am fucking terrified to be queer and to date like a queer person," (and that is ultimately what that whole paragraph you wrote boils down to) nearly every queer person you said that to would be nodding their head because most of us have been there.

You know already that I think you actually working on that and letting us help you do that is probably some of the most beneficial and helpful work you could do.

But you know, we can only help you with what you want or are at least are willing to accept help with, and to trust the expertise of the help, at least to the point you can actually take in some of what is being said instead of it endlessly going into the void because you are so often so resistant to just about anything we have to say or offer.

So.

Let's recenter. What do you actually want help with from us right now, and what kinds of help are you actually willing to accept? Take a little bit, see if you can't at least pick one place to start, and let's start again and take it from whatever and wherever that is, okay?

[sky]

What exactly is comphet?

I do want to work on it, I do I just always go to sex, every time and it overwhelms me so so deeply. We can talk about things but no matter what we talk about I will think about how I have to put my mouth on a vagina and I’m just so afraid to do that. I don’t know how to not go there. It makes me want to scream and rip my hair out I want to be able just to think about things normally and not think about sex and all the germs and the things I have to do in those moments and how do they happen, how do I do them.

I feel I won’t be able to get anywhere with anything until I have sex but I really just am not ready for some random person but I’m not allowing myself to get attached to anyone right now so then I’m just stuck here at spot one unable to move.

Do you get me?

[Heather]

We've talked about this in chat before, so I'll be brief. Compulsory heterosexuality is a term to describe the ideas we all get living in a world that not only only presents sex between cisgender, heterosexual men and women AS sex at all, let alone as the only truly acceptable way to be sexual, it centers it as the normal, or the ideal sex for everyone. It is most likely why, for instance, you believe sex between two people with vaginas cannot possibly be as exciting as when there is a penis involved.

This is a nice, clear breakdown of comphet (and also discusses a specific kind of OCD that can be at play with all this, too): https://www.treatmyocd.com/what-is-ocd/ ... tation-ocd If reel education is a better fit, this educator, Eva Bloom, talks about it a lot and does so very well: https://www.instagram.com/whatsmybodydoing/ I think her content would be great for you, period.

So, sex isn't going to fix your issues. Would that it had that kind of ability. It doesn't. I mean, a sex life you love and enjoy, over time, now THAT can for sure help you out here. But it's not like you can just bonk somebody and shazam: all of these feelings and fears and conflicts and desires you have are going to float away. None of this works like that.

That all said, I don't think you answered my question, and I need you to do that before we move forward here. So. Take some time -- not a few minutes, maybe a few hours, or even a day -- and let us know really clearly what you are asking for help with from us right now, and what kinds of help you would be open to accepting. It's going to be a lot easier for you and us to move forward in a productive way that actually has the capacity to benefit you once we know those two things. Until we do, I think we are just going to keep going in circles. <3

[Heather]

Hey, Sky. I see the posts sitting in the moderation queue, but none of them offer what I have asked you for and told you we need to move forward in a productive way.

In your last one, you start by saying you don’t know where to start. But that’s what I need you to take the time to figure out. I need you to tell me/us what you want to start with, clearly, and what kind of help you are willing to accept from us with whatever that is.

If you need more time to arrive at those answers, which it clearly seems you do, please take that time instead of leaving more posts in the queue that just keep us in the same loops and don’t answer those two questions. If you don’t actually know what you want help with, or what kind of help you are willing to accept, this just isn’t going to be a good use of your time and energy or ours.