Mixed messages and depression

[Stuck11]

Hello again... I feel bad for using this site so much lately and will make a donation here soon. I just wanted to see if you had any thoughts on how to recover from being sexually rejected. Since my partner stopped pursuing me for sex and accepting my advances--probably about 8 months ago--I've had a really hard time seeing myself as a sexual being. I feel kind of disgusted with myself, internally. I haven't touched myself in months because I now associate sexual thoughts with emotional pain and rejection. He wouldn't really talk about why he wasn't wanting to have sex, until he finally came out and said he "had no romantic or sexual feelings" for me "at least not right now." Before that, he suggested that I get some lingerie or that we watch porn together.

He also has said he didn't want to be "sexually connected to pain." Before he left, he said a bunch of stuff that stung... Like how he thought our chemistry was always a little off because I was never comfortable, and thus he could never really explore sexually with me. (He even wondered if I was more into women??) None of this was communicated in a way that was actionable as it was happening. I don't think he really asked how he could make me comfortable---and when I tried to volunteer that information it would have mixed results.

He has reflected on our sex life in other ways... He said the first time we had sex was the worst sex he'd ever had. (Neither of us had had sex for a while before that, and I was more inexperienced). But then we eventually learned and started having great, sensual sex. During better times in the relationship--when questioned--he said admitted that things felt, at least initially, more natural with his previous partners, but that he was satisfied and happy with our relationship...that we would get more comfortable as we got to know our bodies and each other. It felt very affirming.

Still, throughout our relationship, he has sometimes struggled to keep an erection, in large part due to performance anxiety concerns or tiredness. I tried to react calmly to that and focus on other sexual activities, but I always wondered about his attraction level and our seemingly different needs for closeness.

I realize it's hard for someone to admit their loss of attraction, but the limbo went on for a really long time and did some real damage. I started to get more jealous of other pretty women just out in the world, and paranoid about whether he was seeing someone else and just not telling me. (He swears he wasn't). I sometimes feel ashamed when I see pretty women now... How effed up and anti-feminist is that?

I used to watch porn and have toys and stuff, but now my mind is just walling off that aspect of my experience. When I think about moving on to other people, or even missing sex, I cringe because I worry about all the things he didn't say out loud. Like secrets.

I've never had a great relationship with my body--I think I'm attractive enough but feel threatened by my own sexuality. But this is the absolute worst I've ever felt about SEX as a thing.

Can you recommend ways of, like, reprogramming my thinking? Or even little things I can do to make myself feel less like "the girl he lost attraction for"?

[Heather]

You can use the site and our services as much as you want, and while we always appreciate donations, our services are intended to be free, so that's certainly not something you need to do!

Per usual, there's no way to get around this: your ex really sounds like a jerk, and maybe like he's just a jerk full freaking time. I'm so sorry for some of the things he's said to you and the way he's treated you, including the way he seems to boomerang you between being a real jerk and then acting like a sweetheart. That kind of behaviour does a real number on a person (and it also seems in alignment with my impression of him as an emotionally abusive person, btw).

What sucks the most is how much you've obviously internalized his words and actions, and how it sounds like they've basically turned into what you think of your whole sexual self, period, what this one person thinks. I'm not surprised this has had that impact, particularly because I really do think you have been in something emotionally abusive and without any awareness of that until very recently, but I'm certainly sorry. Goodness knows you have enough to recover from already from this relationship.

I think that what you need to do most is work on disconnecting your view of yourself -- sexually and otherwise -- based on this guy and your relationship and experiences with him. He's ONE PERSON. Just one. He's also one person with a history of making you feel bad and treating you poorly, and from what I can tell, who really has a hard time seeing you at all because he's so full of himself and so centered on himself. As far as I'm concerned, he doesn't have any authority here, but even if he did, what ONE PERSON thinks of us sexually -- and if any one person is or isn't attracted to us (and who knows the truth in what he's even said to you) -- doesn't tell us much of anything about ourselves. It certainly doesn't tell us a thing about our OWN sexuality, only about that person's, if it even does that.

Can I ask: before this relationship, what was your relationship like with your sexual self? How did you feel about yourself sexually? You say you felt threatened: can you tell me a little more about that? What were any other sexual relationships you had with people like?

[Stuck11]

Hey Heather, I am having a lot of trouble calling him emotionally abusive, and thinking of him in those ways... at least as like a defining thing. I think a lot of the stuff he said about sex was to keep me comfortable. Even if there wasn't necessarily full disclosure. For most of the relationship, he was very supportive and patient with me sexually. But I think he withheld things because he knew I was uncomfortable with myself and would blow things out of proportion / not take them in the right context. Granted, some of these more recent comments have been insensitive, for sure. I'm sure he's gotten kind of sick of being asked whether he's seeing other people, even jokingly, by me.

Not to say that justifies it, but I can understand why people sometimes try to manage the reactions of others--especially around sex--to avoid hurting them. I'm not great about being forthright all the time in those arenas either, though I've tried.

I think he was trying to be comforting for a long time around sex and then kind of got tired of it. I do have a lot of insecurities that I probably shouldn't place on others.

I don't really feel like I was 'the victim' in terms of sexual stuff for most of the relationship. It's disorienting now to think about all this.

I guess I've always been somewhat uncomfortable around sex. Just not comfortable with partners at all, except for this most recent one (to a limited extent).

A guy I dated for years before this one used to have sort of hollow sex with me and didn't really care if I climaxed. It was sort of routine and felt okay. But I felt like a stand in which is sort of dehumanizing. I didn't really advocate for myself sexually. Will learn from that next time.

With my more recent ex, I did feel comfortable at times. But I always felt uncomfortable with the sort of play acting that seems required to initiate sex. It feels fake. I'm much more of a grungy sexual person who just likes being close and letting things go from there. that's the only way it feels genuine to me. I feel really sick about how our culture paints women and I sort of want to abstain from that. I always felt weird about even lingerie. Just so many hang ups.

[Heather]

I don't want to divert this to a different topic than you were asking for help with, so are you okay if for now I set aside your feelings about whether or not your ex was -- in general, and also around this -- emotionally abusive? I am concerned you're not seeing some things that seem pretty clearly to be abuse, manipulation and/or controlling to me from all the posts you have made, but at the same time, you're out of this relationship for now, so I don't feel like you're in danger of any more of it at the moment, and I also want to be sure to give you the help you asked for.

Let me know if you have an issue with that: if so, and you want to, we can circle back to that topic, okay? If not, if you're open to talking about it another time, I am, too.

In terms of your sexuality and how you are feeling in it and your body right now: so, do I have it right that there were two partners in your life, so far? And both, from the sounds of things, didn't involve sexual lives that really felt like a good fit for you, or if they did, didn't stay that way?

For instance, it sounds like playacting may have felt like a thing you had to do to initiate sex with one or both of them. I say with them, because I'm not sure where you got the idea that that's required to initiate sex, save that it must have felt that way with those guys? It's certainly not required! By all means, we can't exactly just "let things happen," because sex doesn't "happen," but is about actions people do. If everyone involved was waiting for sexual things to happen...well, they wouldn't! Of course, we also always need top verbalize some things in order to be doing consenting right. But you certainly can go about it by being generally physically and emotionally close, without anyone getting done up or anything, without wearing anything you aren't into or don't like to wear for yourself, and by just trying physical things together and doing (while asking as needed, including -- as you noted in an earlier post -- making sure everyone involved feels comfortable and is into what's going on) whatever feels good to everyone involved until anyone or everyone involved doesn't want to anymore!

You do say that you and your ex had great sex at one point: what do you feel like made it great for you? What were the elements involved that fit your wants and needs?

[Stuck11]

Hey Heather, I've been thinking a lot about the sexuality stuff but am having trouble even putting things into words. I've ALWAYS had feelings of dis-ingenuousness around sex and pleasure. Fear too.

I've only had two regular sex partners. I had a one-night stand with a third guy. And I've done some non-intercourse 'fooling around' with probably 4 or 5 other guys.

I remember my first ever kiss feeling scary, my second "first kiss" with my recent ex feeling scary. (I actually remember coaching myself throughout the experience, e.g. "Relax, it's just ___. You KNOW him.") I don't really remember a lot of kissing with the others, though there might have been some.

My first sexual relationship was fairly damaging, admittedly. I remember being uncomfortable a lot but not wanting to offend anybody. I remember feeling like I was on display, and feeling like I was consciously manipulating my partner's desire visually. Our sex was fairly unemotional. I never came, and my partner wasn't really able to figure out how to make things pleasurable for me, aside from in a cursory way. I had been a virgin before him, so I didn't really know how to coach him. We just weren't comfortable with our bodies, or each other, and we didn't really have a practical language around sex. He wanted sex a lot, and sometimes I would just go along with it. There was no oral and very little emphasis on me. It seemed more about his ego and his getting off. I felt invisible and shitty. I remember crying once while we were having sex and he didn't notice for a really long time. Meh.

This more recent relationship was the first where I could be more honest about what felt good and what didn't. (Though still not fully honest). My partner convinced me to let him go down on me, which was uncomfortable at first but eventually lovely. During our first sexual encounter, I remember feeling critiqued... Sometimes I would feel nervous or overwhelmed and pull back--or like I was needing to perform--and I would kind of stop and be quiet or even laugh a little. He would pick up on the hesitation. He used to say things like "We have to keep the transitions sexy." Sometimes I think that was him pushing his own sexual insecurity onto me. Like, he would lose his erection a lot in the middle of things--even when they were going smoothly--and then that comment would crop up. I couldn't relax like 80 percent of the time because I felt sort of responsible for his being turned on or not. His being sexually "on" always felt tenuous. As I got more used to his body, I would just kind of roll over during those instances or we would do some other kind of sexual play. He never was really able to explain why it was happening--and he didn't like to talk during sex much at all. Even if it was just a second taken to reorient and get on the same page.

A couple of times he got frustrated after going down on me for longer than usual, because he couldn't figure my body out and he didn't feel like he was getting enough direction from me. But I honestly didn't know how to direct him. Sometimes nothing feels good or sexy, even when you want it to.

He had certain things that turned him on, or got him going. And often that meant going down on me. Sometimes I didn't want him doing that right off the bat, and would indicate I'd rather do something else. He took that as rejection sometimes--or would sometimes say he needed that to get started. That put me in sort of a weird position, consent-wise. Because you don't really want to shut down your partner's sexual wishes--even if they don't exactly line up with yours in the moment.

I will say that, for all of this, he was very aware of when I was not fully "into it." He would have a difficult time continuing, and would tell me so. But sometimes I just needed time to work out the kinks in my mind or get things moving. Still, that was too long of a runway for him, it seemed.

Early in the relationship, my sense of our sex life was: "Do it now or you'll lose your chance...Don't mess it up!" type of thing. Either because the erection would go away, or the transition wouldn't go right, or something. When I would bring this concern up to him, he would kind of brush it off and indirectly indicate that I was overthinking and just needed to relax into it.

I guess I was also uncomfortable because he'd had more sex than I had, and referred to past partners as "experienced." He didn't go back and reminisce about these girls constantly or anything, but when pressed, did tell me about some of his previous sexual experiences. Like having sex in a train car once on the way to California with a girl he'd just met.. or one of his past girlfriends "being super clear about her boundaries and what felt good." He would say that those experiences -- at least through his teenage memory lens -- "were like porn, even though in reality they probably weren't."

I just got really threatened by that, as somehow who'd only had intercourse/sex with two people before. When I told him so, he basically said he wished he hadn't told me, and that I shouldn't worry about it. That he didn't compare partners and enjoyed being with me, and that we'd get more and more comfortable as we grew together.

He also watched porn. This always bothered me on some level, but I gradually got more comfortable with it and started to enjoy it on my own too.

I also think we had different sex drives. I liked sex because it helped me to feel close and more emotionally connected--and I seemed to want it more regularly than he did. When I would initiate, it always seemed to be a bad time. 8 times out of 10, he WOULD NOT be influenced by my attempts at initiation. Whether that was hugging him, or trying to kiss him, or even me saying out loud "How about we...?" It was like a control thing for him. He determined the tempo, and I didn't like that. So I mostly stopped initiating after a while--or would make super obvious gestures like showing up in lingerie. When I acted like my 'normal self' in pursuit, I'm not sure he realized that I was trying to get sexy. It was too subtle for him or something.

You asked what about our sex life was actually GOOD for me. For all the weirdness and hang-ups, I will say that we did have some really sexy moments. I got comfortable with spit and messiness and making adjustments so that things felt better for my body. I got much comfortable talking about sex itself. Like scenarios that were intriguing, or thoughts/desires I was having. It wasn't, by any stretch, TOTAL comfort with him or myself.... but it was the best I've experienced so far. I was able to orgasm sometimes through a mix of oral and masturbation. I never was able to orgasm during intercourse itself, but I hear that's not uncommon.

Overall, being with my most recent ex opened up the door to enjoyable, sharing sex. With his help, I developed a whole language around it--one that I was too scared to even approach before. I learned to be open-minded about other people's desires and more accepting of the regular ups and downs of sexual experience. I stopped feeling like everything had to be perfect--even though I still felt pressure from somewhere.

My hesitation around sex goes back to puberty, though. I always hated that guys acted so driven by it. I hated how guys would objectify girls, even in a passive way. I also hate the idea that guys are always walking around fantasizing about women... that it's automatic. Both of my exes have told me this. To be honest, sex seems like shitty distraction for the most part. I think it makes it so hard for people to just CONNECT with one another genuinely in the world. So often, one or both people in an interaction (myself included) are influenced by sexual feelings. Sex makes people competitive and dishonest too, I find. Both monogamy and polyamory seem like recipes for misery. Just always that feeling of possibly losing someone, or having them find somebody they fit with better.

I guess I don't like how much people are controlled by sex. And how our society's teachings about sex make us all insecure. And how gender dynamics that I WANT NOTHING MORE THAN TO SHED end up cropping up during sex.

There is just no happy medium that I've found. Even as I type this, I'm thinking, "Oh well, you've just never had good sex" and "Just not the right partner." Which sets me up for this expectation and journey that seems horrible right now. Sorry to sound so negative about this. I'm just pissed.

I bet this is probably the longest relationship board essay you've ever gotten, huh?

[Stuck11]

I guess I feel like I'm turning into an asexual person entirely because of fear. My body and brain are literally like, "NOPE. Sex=confusion and scary negotiations. Sex=not knowing what feels good even when you've tried everything."

It's super frustrating. I used to at least have a sex drive. Now I don't give a shit. I literally don't even think about sexual things with people. It's totally walled off in my mind.

[Siân]

You know, I think you're being pretty hard on yourself here. It's really normal for our interest in sex to vary over time, especially in response to big life events - it's no surprise that in the recovery from a breakup, from a relationship that made you feel pretty bad a lot of the time, that your interest in sex would be limited - or absent even. Sometimes our brain/body just decides to shut that shit right down until we're in a place where we feel safe again, and that's okay.

It sounds like there's a broader thing going on here too, about how you feel with sex and your sexuality more generally. I do honestly think that your partners have hindered rather than helped, and in a different context a lot of that would feel different, but perhaps as you start to heal you can also give some time to figuring out what the things that YOU want from sex look like, what feels good to YOU etc. Some of the things you describe already learning, like a language to talk about sex are really great tools, and things like reading around and learning as much as you can, as well as fantasy and masturbation can help you think about what a happy sexuality looks like for you - what do you think?

You've already mentioned some things - like wanting to initiate as you, not having to put on specific clothes etc. and only doing things like oral when you're into it, that are probably parts of the jigsaw.

Oh, and I hear you on the gender dynamics thing! The good news is that there are other people out there who also want to leave that baggage at the door.

[Amanda F]

Sian is right - you're being hard on yourself. None of those difficult experiences were your fault - they're a product of the crappy sex education (or lack thereof) we receive, which doesn't tell us anything about how to learn what we enjoy, how to communicate with a partner, how to deal with transitions, etc. And, as you said, the gender dynamics that are baked into our culture. Fortunately, not everyone buys in to those, and there are definitely people out there who are loving, understanding, flexible, and patient when it comes to sex/attraction.

It's no wonder you're feeling sort of asexual - sex sounds like it's been pretty stressful in the past. Being hard on yourself is just adding more hard feelings to the pile, though. I've been through some super similar situations which also affected my sex drive, and it made me angry and frustrated (at myself AND at the people I'd been with) - which just made me feel even less interested in sex! It took a while for me to change my frame of mind to something more positive, but that's what started making the difference.

it's normal to experience changes in libido. There will be periods in your life when it goes up and down - it's part of being human. So the way you're feeling now won't necessarily be how it is forever. And it can change depending on stuff going on in your life, the partner you're with, the more you learn about yourself...etc.

In the meantime, I think the less you are directing your negative feelings about yourself, the better. You don't deserve your own ire and frustration; you're doing the best you can, and that's enough. Can you find space to say to yourself, "Those experiences were difficult, and that wasn't my fault, nor my body's fault, nor my libido's fault." ? Do you think you could try to be gentle/patient with your body/libido while you're on this journey? What would that look like for you?

[Amanda F]

And just to respond to your comments about having a partner who was frustrated during sexual experiences in the past, because of timing or transitions or whatever -

-You 100% get to take as long as you need to to feel good. Whether it's 5 minutes or 30 minutes or an hour. Your body is awesome and so is its timeframe, whatever it is. And partners need to listen and respect your timeframe and your needs.
-You don't have to maintain 10000% arousal throughout a sexual experience. It's okay for it to ebb and flow - in fact, that's normal.
-You get to decide what sex means to you, and what kind of sex you want, and whatever you decide is perfect, acceptable, and wonderful. No one else decides that for you. Although our culture certainly tries to...in the end, YOU decide.
-Every single one of your sexual preferences and interests (including those that may not be present right now) makes you awesome and unique. Please don't let anyone - not a person, not our culture - tell you otherwise.

In short, I know it may sound a little cheesy but you're wonderful the way you are. People will try to talk you out of that, our culture will try to convince you otherwise, but believing that you and your sexuality are effing awesome is one of the most powerful things you can do. It may not feel natural at first, but try to convince yourself a little bit every day. You can change how you feel and how you think with practice.

[Stuck11]

Thanks to you both. I'm hoping that, in time, some of the negative filters will come off and I'll just feel safe around my partner. A lot of the situations with my ex DID feel like my fault. Like if I'd have been more sexually experienced they wouldn't have happened or something. But at the same time, it never felt like a dance where he was as worried about me as I was about him. I guess I continue to question the whole thing because my ex was always very natural and comfortable with his body, and that seemed to give him some kind of authority on sexuality, you know? Like I was the one bringing all of these hang-ups and discomfort and wanting more conversation.

I'm trying not to be so hard on myself, but it is a slog. Maybe with time. I just don't like feeling scared right off the bat. So often, things that are sexually close feel like tests I have to pass I can't tell if that feeling comes from having partners who don't fully see me, or what. It's very frustrating to not understand the basis of all that.

Sometimes I think about how many times I've had to will myself through sexual experiences. I remember, after my first partner, thinking that I wouldn't have sex with someone unless I was wildly attracted and this and that. I don't know that I've EVER had the 'tear your clothes off' feeling with anybody. Sometimes I think maybe I judge my partners too harshly, or get too obsessed with details of the experience as opposed to the whole picture.

Like, how are you supposed to deal with transitions? I just remember we'd be in a position that wasn't super comfortable and we'd start to shift--and I might ask a question or suggest something--and then we'd have to like work back up to him being hard. Sometimes that worked, sometimes it didn't. Which was fine, except for the "keep the transitions sexy" comment, which made it seem was like I was expected to put on some exhibitionist, disingenuous show. I've always hated performative masturbation, or making those porn-y suggestive faces, or fake dirty talk. I literally cannot do it. I just never understood what was meant by 'keep the transitions sexy.' Like why I am the only one who's responsible for that?

I think part of the thing that made me so angry is that I know at least one reliable way to get myself off, but it takes a while and it sort of physically repetitive. My partner didn't get much enjoyment out of doing that, and it radiated off him, even though he didn't say anything.

On some 'get by in the world' level, I wish it was easier to just be like "Hey sure, go ahead and let's have sex despite the fact that foreplay is one-sided and I'm dry as a sheet." Or "Hey it's fine that you say you want me to take control but don't actually let me" or whatever. Or better yet, I wish it was easier to find someone who didn't just care about the outcome: like "I want her to be into it" and "I want her to be comfortable" and "I want it to feel natural" without really going the distance to understand what goes into that. I'm just SO angry. I'm angry because people who care about you are supposed to do that, and ask questions, and not bullshit you into thinking they're satisfied with your sex until BOOM they're not, and it's too late... And all the negative things you believed they were thinking about your sex life turned out to be true--even when they denied them. Crazy making.

I hate that I have to worry about being "sexually inexperienced." I don't like being compared. I don't know what to do with men's bodies always. I just find it hard to believe that people actually come through on the other side of this shit and really enjoy being together physically.

I'll try to go with whatever's happening. I don't judge my lack of libido necessarily, but I do judge my performance in this past relationship.

I'm in sort of a bad place tonight, as you can probably tell. I'm reaching the end of the 3 weeks of no contact I requested from my ex, and I don't know how to handle that.

[Stuck11]

I'm just not coping well at all with this breakup. It has really wrecked my sense of reality and the feeling of loss underneath all of my negative comments about him is massive. I can't even let it in. Even the shift of things going from so great to so bad. It's unfathomable to me that that connection is shattered and can't seemingly be rebuilt, at least not for a long time. It feels like yesterday that things were okay, and that I felt really loved. Like somebody really didn't judge me and was okay with me the way I was. I would give anything to have the rapport back, even in a limited way. I think it would still be there somewhat if we were to see each other.

We're a couple of weeks out now, and I'm incredibly up and down. I want to see him but everyone tells me not to...and instead to set boundaries, do self-care, etc. I still don't know whether he even thinks of this as a breakup or just a break. That's how confusing it got. I guess it doesn't matter, because it feels like a breakup.

I just don't feel strong enough to keep doing the 'right' things. I told him I'd probably reach out at the end of 3 weeks. I want to send some gesture of goodwill but I don't know what shit storm that will start.

I walk around feeling angry most of the day, then that sort of crumbles into tears at night. Every way forward seems dysfunctional. I'm a mess and things don't seem to be improving.

[Sam W]

Hi Stuck,

You're in the midst of a very rough breakup, with someone who really did a number on your self-esteem prior to it happening. All of those messy, conflicting emotions make a lot of sense in that context. I'll touch on the sex stuff in a moment, but I want to focus on the fact that you're coming up on three weeks of no contact and how you're feeling about that first, since it's a more immediate source of stress.

I hear you saying like you're not improving or making any progress. Something I'd offer to counter that is, even in the time you've been talking with us, you've taken some really big steps. Too, it can help to think of breakups as a sort of grieving process, complete with different emotional stages. Right now, you're solidly in a stage where you're angry (and goodness knows you have a lot to be angry about), and as you move through those emotions, you'll probably start noticing other feelings coming to the forefront.

At the three week mark, what if you did something to mark it for yourself that was a celebration of some kind? That may feel counterintuitive, but it could give you a way to acknowledge the milestone that doesn't involve reaching out to him and potentially setting off some really intense feelings (or giving him an opening to further blame you for what happened). Too, when you've been feeling those urges to see him or contact him, what do you usually do to redirect yourself?

You mentioned the issue of transitions during sex. The honest answer is that while sometimes they can be "sexy," sometimes they're just going to be awkward or necessary. Sometimes people will kiss and touch or talk dirty during them, and if a partner with a penis loses an erection during the shift, they'll use that as an opportunity to do non-insertive activities that they both enjoy. Honestly, for as much as he talked-up his ex for being good at communicating, it sounds like he wanted you to be able to intuit what he meant by things like "keep the transitions sexy" without ever giving you more detail, which is bound to create some frustration.

Do you feel like your level of sexual experience versus his came up a lot when you were together? (I also have some thoughts about the objectification and gender dynamics you noted earlier, but I want to pause here because I just launched a lot of text at you).

[Stuck11]

Hey Sam, I think I have taken some steps with this breakup. But they feel kind of hollow, in the sense that I'm only doing them because I feel like I'm supposed to "to get over this." None of it seems like it gets to the heart of what I'm feeling. It just feels like a protocol. I don't know how else to make it feel more individual to me--or real or calming.

I think I may try some small celebration once this weekend rolls around, or shortly after. "Like hey I'm still alive." But I do think I will reach out to him because I told him I would when I initiated the whole no contact thing. Just keep it very simple and basic, like "Hey I hope you're feeling stronger and that things are looking up. I'm still pretty shaky so I need some more time, but wishing you the best."

That way it's a boundary re-set but also honoring the connection I want to honor. Maybe it's stupid, I don't know.

Normally I'm not drawn to text him unless I'm feeling really guilty. That feeling has eased somewhat, I guess. I usually go read or watch tv or exercise or call my mom when it gets really peaked.

I guess I feel some fear about reaching out and actually SEEING him because I know it will be a harsh dose of reality. Once that does happen, I don't think he'll actually blame me for anything. I think he won't talk about it at all.

I'm not super scared of texting him, but I do think it may be mildly triggering. Or make me wonder about things I shouldn't.

In terms of the sex stuff, he didn't rub his experience in my face or anything. But his past came up enough times where it started to create niggling doubts about his satisfaction or something. Who knows though, I might've just been anxious and given it more weight/spin that it deserved.

[Heather]

Hey there, Stuck. Sorry to hear you're still having such a hard time.

I'm only passing through right now, but plan to come by and spend some more time tomorrow catching up with you and your posts.

But in the meantime, I do just want to say that I hear what sounds like you trying to kind of normalize or rationalize what actually sounds like pretty shitty, selfish sexual behaviour on your ex's part to me. So, if one of the things that has you tied up in knots is the idea that his behavior and the sexual dynamics you two had are as good as it gets (oh my goodness, it's so not), or something you'll have to put up with with everyone you have a sexual relationship with (also nope). In my mind, it looks like you've had bad luck with partners so far on the whole, and I'd suspect that the future holds better things for you in this regard.

[Mo]

I wonder if it might help to reframe things, just a bit, and focus on getting through these hard times instead of getting over all of the big painful feelings you're having right now. For one thing, the hurt and anger you feel right now is justified! I don't think it's something you have to push aside or try not to feel. What I want for you right now is to keep moving forward, taking care of yourself as well as you can, and focusing on your emotional needs as a priority.

[Heather]

How you doing today? <3

[Stuck11]

Hey <3 I'm doing okay. I'm heading home to see my parents for a few days--really looking forward to relaxing a little and being away from the apartment I shared with my partner. I'm still getting a lot of guilt twinges, and worrying that he will never speak to me again. Just stuff that I know is out of my control. This weekend is when I have to decide on an approach, preferably one that honors my emotional state. I think I've accepted that he's probably in no position to be a consistent friend or partner, but I still seem to need the reassurance that he is: doing better, still out in the world, just more separate. It's a weird thing. I don't like the NC thing very much, but I know it's been good for me in a lot of ways. But I do hope that I'll eventually be able to hold boundaries without cutting people totally off.

The anger is still very real and at times consuming. I'm trying to distract myself with people and exercise. There's just a sense of disorientation that continues... It's very unsettling and I keep drifting back to the past, thinking that a conversation had tomorrow would somehow magically feel like the old ones did. E.g. healthy and open and cheerful. But I know it probably wouldn't because it's too soon.

I like the idea of framing this as "getting through" rather than "getting over," and focusing on my emotional needs. They're just very hard to recognize/identify now. I know that certain things lead to an anxious body/brain. That's about it. Naming things like loneliness and guilt are easy, but knowing what would fill those gaps (conversations with others, feelings of connectedness, creative expression) is still difficult in the moment. It's the difference between "I feel physically lonely" versus "I want a hug." I'm much more adept at the first kind of statement.

So yeah, just trying to survive. Hoping that this day stays calm.

[Heather]

For sure, I like Sam's framing there, too. I think things like this are much more about getting through them than "over" them. I think the "over" stuff in your case is probably much more long-term and more about letting go of and unlearning some of your own patterns, and seeing more of your own blind spots, so that you can have better, more fulfilling, more equitable and certainly far healthier relationships in the future, of all kinds. I think as you can start to do that, you'll find ways to be with people and have them in your life without it becoming all-consuming or all about them and not much about you, without having to cut them off, but instead, by having good boundaries from the front and insisting on same from others.

I'm glad you're feeling angry. I think you have a lot of sound reason to be angry, and I think it's really important to let yourself have and feel those feelings. I know that you can't be in them all the time because you have to do all the things you need to in your daily life, but I'd encourage you to at least give yourself some times where instead of trying to distract from those feelings, you just go all in and experience them as fully as you can, you know?

[Heather]

Btw, it's a bit to the side of things, but I wanted to hone in on one thing you talked about in your sexual life with your ex just to give you maybe one solid example where he was really going about things in a way that was crummy, but that it seems like you were made to feel was required of you and commonplace, and maybe might be the case with every partner.

Personally, if I found myself with a partner who couldn't be really chill and cool about the numerous moments of transition or needed pause or adjustments or communications or interruptions that often happen during sex (including even with ourselves in masturbation!), I'd be reconsidering being with that partner. My expectations of someone who I'd say is a person able to be a good sexual partner is that during those times they have good humor about it (in fact, I'd say without that, there's likely a lot of the fun of sex you/they might be missing out on, since some of it really comes down to the very human and awkward moments like these), and that they aren't making demands about how their partner behaves during those times or asking them to sexually perform in any way. Someone saying (especially the way it sounds like he did) that you have to "keep those moments sexy" sounds to me like a person who isn't really ready for how sex is in real life, versus in porn or fantasy.

When I listen to what you've said about the sexual conflicts, a lot of them sound like you not feeling able to just be yourself with a partner during sex. I also hear what sounds like you thinking, because of these experiences, that just isn't something you can have. But not only CAN you find sexual partners where you can just be yourself during sex/sexually, I'd posit that if and when you wind up being sexual with someone where it feels like you can't, that's the tipoff that that person isn't the right partner for you and that you want to move on and not be with that person in that way. There are absolutely partners out there for you where it doesn't have to feel like it has for you in this way, and where it can go very differently, in a way that feels right for you in all the ways.

[Amanda F]

Personally, if I found myself with a partner who couldn't be really chill and cool about the numerous moments of transition or needed pause or adjustments or communications or interruptions that often happen during sex (including even with ourselves in masturbation!), I'd be reconsidering being with that partner. My expectations of someone who I'd say is a person able to be a good sexual partner is that during those times they have good humor about it (in fact, I'd say without that, there's likely a lot of the fun of sex you/they might be missing out on, since some of it really comes down to the very human and awkward moments like these), and that they aren't making demands about how their partner behaves during those times or asking them to sexually perform in any way. Someone saying (especially the way it sounds like he did) that you have to "keep those moments sexy" sounds to me like a person who isn't really ready for how sex is in real life, versus in porn or fantasy.

Seconding Heather!

I also used to feel a lot of performative pressure from partners and I thought that was normal. Like, "I guess this is how sex is." But not everyone is like that. It was really mindblowing when I discovered people who were happy to laugh, take their time, and make our individual comfort the focus of the sexual experience, rather than focusing solely on being turned on and reaching orgasm. And I've found that these people tend to be a bit higher on the overall maturity scale.

Like others have said, sex is full of awkward moments, things going not-quite-according-to-plan, weird noises, and more. The more we can accept and honor those awkward bits, the better the fun, arousing, pleasureable bits become. It does take some practice, so honor your own timescale, too. No pressure in any areas - not even the goal of not feeling pressure.

Take your time, explore what feels good and right to you, and no matter how you're feeling try to be patient and kind to yourself. Those positive feelings are key to better sex overall (and just a happier self, I think).

[Heather]

Hey, Stuck. Thinking of you and hoping you're hanging in there okay.

[Stuck11]

Hey Heather and everybody <3 I so appreciate all of what you've said here about sex and getting comfortable with one's own desires and exploration. The broader view is helpful; I definitely need to work on being patient with myself and becoming more in tune with what I need in a partnership (sexually or otherwise). For me, there's always been such a feeling of scarcity around connection. I think that feeling leads to bad choices, taking things on other people's terms, at their speed, etc.

A strange thing I've realized over the past couple of weeks is this: I have a deep belief that people who are "on my wavelength"--intellectually or emotionally--won't actually like or accept me. (Like people who communicate in styles similar to mine, or who have more obviously compatible interests, etc). I feel too seen by them, somehow. To be honest, I feel really freaked out and boorish and judged around them. I think I'm drawn toward people who are a little guarded or unusual or self-focused. I feel safer with the idea that I can sort of swoop in and expand their world a bit, without being judged so harshly for MY shortcomings. Obviously, these different/guarded/unusual/self-focused people have things that I envy too... most often great creativity or drive. It's not a one-way street. But I do sense when there are feelings of insecurity or persecution emanating from a person, then I identify with and gravitate toward that. It's like I naturally "get" those people, as opposed to the ones who are more self-assured and comfortable.

I talked with a close friend of mine recently about how I was feeling about my ex losing sexual attraction toward the end of our relationship. She said something that made everything seem more okay somehow. "This is just something that happens at the end of relationships. It says nothing about your sex appeal. Sometimes the person might not even know why they've lost attraction. And sometimes it takes a while for them to identify that it's even happened." I think she's right, you know? I rarely hear about relationships ending without people simply growing apart and not wanting each other in the same way.

I'm still struggling a lot with taking the focus off of my ex and putting it back onto me. It's a powerful reflex, to ruminate about what went wrong. It's a battle every second not to obsess, judge myself for obsessing, gaze at the total destruction of the relationship, etc. I hope it gets easier to break my attention away from those thoughts. Really, I think my brain isn't yet able to face the full reality of "me." The "me" of right now is pissed off, short with colleagues, short with my parents, explosively grieving, disconnected. It's hard to turn the rudder and face that. Even a slow turn is hard.

Right now though, the main thing I'm reckoning with is the feeling of having caused harm, or having been a contributor to a "toxic situation." (I've always gotten hung up on things like that... it's weird. When I started driving, for example, I would often make little mistakes and work myself into a frenzy about how you can hurt someone with a car and you need to play YOUR part on the road PERFECTLY to avoid that). I know that our relationship was unhealthy, and that it hurt both of us in different ways. Some of that was caused by natural incompatibility....but most of it was caused by destructive communication patterns. When I think back to how miserable my partner seemed at the end, I just feel awful. Even though I know we're supposed to learn and grow through relationships, I hate that there are casualties. Even though I know my partner was seeing things through a negative filter, that filter was HIS reality, and through it I became the oppressor/enemy. It's not something I had control over, but I'm incredibly sad that I came to represent that for him. Because I love him very much, and have always wanted the best of everything for him. That mismatch in understanding feels like an absolute tragedy to me. It's like a car wreck I can't stop staring at. I also can't stop wondering about the bad stuff I did without even meaning to, or being aware of.

I don't want to hurt anybody, ever. And I know that I have, intentionally or not. It's just really hard to forgive myself.

I know this post is a lot. I still have a lot of nights like this, where it feels like I'm hemorrhaging thoughts and emotions.

[Heather]

It's a lot, but it's not too much here. I'm glad you're sharing, and it's good to know what's going on with you and how you are. I have some other things to say, but because my mind is like a sieve these days (perimenopause is special, let me tell you), I want to say one big thing I think is really important first.

Based on everything I've observed and learned in my life -- in my work observing or learning about other people's relationships, and then in my own personal life, with my relationships with partners, relatives, friends, and seeing their relationships too -- there's one big thing I know for sure, and that's this: you often can't be a great partner in a shitty relationship. It's also very difficult to be a great partner when someone else is doing a shit job of it. And it's nigh unto impossible to be much more than a substandard partner when you're in a relationship that is outright dysfunctional, controlling or abusive. In a word, when it comes to relationships, just as it goes with most things, the container determines quite a lot about what can go inside of it. You really can't be a great partner when the environment you're trying to be a partner in just isn't nurturing that.

In dysfunctional relationships, we can try very hard to stay functional ourselves, but the machine of the thing is such that it grinds us down over time, that we often slowly conform to it's patterns and grooves, so gradually we often don't even feel it. We can push against dysfunction, and we often will a lot: we can resist it sometimes. But ultimately, we generally either conform, and if we don't, we get pushed out, or leave ourselves. Do you know what I mean?

Everything I know about this relationship that you were last in is that it was dysfunctional at best, and that there are also parts of it that seem very clearly to involve emotional abuse on the part of your partner. I hear and appreciate that you're also concerned about your own behaviour, which is obviously a good thing: it's good to be vigilant about our own behavior when it comes to making sure it's as healthy as it can be. But so far I -- and none of our staff who have interacted with you or read this thread -- haven't seen you report anything you did that feels abusive. You have, on the other hand, posted a lot of behaviour from you that feels very familiar when it comes to how people tend to react with people who are being emotionally abusive and doing things like gaslighting, subtle put-downs, and the like. I have also seen some things I get the clear sense that, your ex having known some of these more vulnerable things about you that you're sharing here, your ex capitalized on.

So much of what you have said here, both about the past and then about your thoughts and feelings about all of this as you go, have made very clear you tried very hard to be a good partner to this person, even when they were making you suffer. Even when it seems clear they weren't making that same effort to be a good partner to you.

Were you the best partner ever to this guy? I think it's fair to say you probably were not, but that limitation was at LEAST somewhat, and probably mostly, in part due to the strong limitation on that by virtue of this relationship being dysfunctional and in some ways even abusive.

I want to add, just so you don't feel so vulnerable standing out here in that alone that this is a thing I know very well because separate from my job, in my personal life I have found myself in this spot more than once. I think for me, doing the work I do, and also having the baggage and history I have, makes it really easy for me to believe that if a relationship is shitty, it's probably because *I* am not doing all the things I can or that I am obviously not being a great partner, and so if I just do All The Great Partner Things better, then it'll be fixed. I think that if I'm really honest with myself and look back at all my relationships -- very much including with my parents, my sibling, friends and for sure partners -- I have probably cumulatively wasted half my life thinking and acting that way. (Ooof, is that tough to take in.) But go figure, even when an apparent relationships expert tries this, it still doesn't work. One person can't fix a broken relationship. And the only person who can fix a broken partner is that person. Trying to just do the heavy lifting of your own, then your partner's, AND much of the relationship itself so it can be better is just never going to work. All those parts --- you, the partner or partners, and the relationship -- have to be working together to do that, and if a relationship is busted from the front, if it's abusive or dysfunctional, NO ONE can act differently in it unless or until the entire container of that relationship changes, a thing that often won't or can't happen when everyone is still in it and when anyone who was in it isn't doing their own growth and change work with a deep dedication to it, no less. The way most dysfunctional or abusive relationships are fixed are by people getting out of them, alas.

From everything I can tell, you are remarkably insightful and honest and aware of your own stuff. It's pretty amazing, especially given your age. (I also am going to bet that it'll be a little harder for you to find partners that are a great fit for you because you're so ahead of the game in that department.) And by all means, I think that insight you have about who you seek out and who you avoid is valuable af. I think that once you work through more of this and whenever it is that you want to start dating again, you should lead with it, and see what you can do to make yourself move at least a little outside your comfort zone so you can start interacting more and being in relationships more with people who are more on your level, and, go figure, probably a lot more emotionally healthy and aware, as well.

But I hope that you can figure out a way to start putting this thing where you keep focusing on how much you sucked or did things wrong in this last relationship will end. I feel confident you've probably done that enough, and before you even split, for a good ten relationships by now. I don't think it serves you, and I also personally think some of it is residual self-blame leftovers left from your emotionally abusive partner. Like I said, were you an amazing partner to this guy? Probably not, but you probably couldn't have been because the relationship you were in and the person you were in it with were not environments that would have allowed you to be. <3

[Stuck11]

I think it's just such a shame how things degraded, and how the cycles of dysfunction took over. I don't know why there's such an intense urge on my part to "fix" it, or repair aspects of the dynamic. Maybe it has something to do with seeing the core of the person as positive and loving... and that feeling like that's the 'real' version of them.

My friends are all telling me to put hope on the shelf for now, and focus on my own emotional healing.

The three weeks of space I asked for from my ex expired this past weekend. When I asked for space initially, I made it clear I would check back once the time was up. So I wrote an email expressing goodwill in general, and the hope that, down the line, we could recover the core of our friendship. I said I hoped his life was going in a good and healthy direction, and that I still cared a lot about him. He didn't respond for a couple of days, so I got worried and texted him to make sure he was okay. He responded kindly, said he's okay, that he'd been busy and would reply soon, and sent me an e-hug. But he didn't really continue the conversation and I haven't heard anything since. It feels weird and crappy. I'm just leaving him alone, but the thought that he might never see or speak to me again is scary. I still have some of his things at the house.

My parents say to give him space, and that's what I've settled on. They say that the effort and caring I put into the whole thing will eventually make itself apparent by his actions. That they'd be very surprised if he never came back around in some way, shape or form... even if things turned out to be different between us. I guess I figured we'd at least see one another one more time.

It's pretty devastating for now, and I kind of regret severing the connection by asking for space. Because it does feel severed, like there's nothing I can do.

[Heather]

I generally think that people's behaviour usually shows us who they really are. Obviously, with manipulative people or behaviour that's trickier, but in general, I think we should figure that, as Maya Angelou says, when someone shows us who they are, we should believe them.

I also know that;'s complicated when someone once behaved one way, but later behaves differently. I think in those cases we generally need to figure that that person changed -- as we're all changing all the time -- and who they are showing us they are now IS who they are now. And boy, I certainly understand how painful and sad and tough that can be.

I personally think the way he's responding isn't because you asked for space. I think he was the one who, from the start of all this latest stuff, started separating from you, very clearly. It is something it seems he has obviously continued to do, which also isn't surprising to me because it's the predictable trajectory of someone who started pulling away and has kept pulling away save for ways they could get their needs met by you (such as the housing situation for a while).

I want to ask you something candid, one, because I am not sure I know the answer, but two, because I think you should: this person that this guy is now, this person he's been for months, THIS is who you would be back into some kind of relationship with if he was open to that. Can you talk a little to give me a sense of why you want to be close to this person who has been treating you these ways for all these months (and in some ways, far longer)?

Or is it who he used to be you want to maintain a relationship with? If so, he can't be -- so he won't be -- who he used to be, because it's now now, not a time before now, and this is who he is now. Do you feel like that's something you're struggling to accept?