Scarleteen

I was born AFAB, and started really hating being called a "woman" or "girl" around the time I turned 11. Thankfully, I was close to many queer communities and my parent is queer themself. I didn't stop using she/her pronouns until I was 15.

I switched to they/them pronouns, but I never really liked them... she/her pronouns I actively dislike, he/him pronouns I'm ehhh towards, and they/them I'm very neutral on. I've tried other pronouns, such as neopronouns, and the only neopronouns I felt somewhat positive towards (but didn't like a lot) were joke ones I said as a joke, and felt positive because I thought it was funny.

I know many people just don't use pronouns or gendered language towards themselves at all, but I don't want to do that either. So I'm just using they/them.

It feels a little sad, though. I wish I had an identity I could feel happy in instead of just ambivalent. The only time I think I've experienced "gender euphoria" is when someone asked if I was a boy or girl because they couldn't tell. I know it's not a universal experience, but I just feel put down by it.

Hi crowcaw73

I can hear how much thought you’ve put into finding the words that feel “right” for you, and imagine that it feels kinda sucky to hear other people describing feelings of gender euphoria when you’re mostly feeling neutral.

I don’t have new pronouns to offer you. What I wonder about instead is changing the goalposts. Maybe gender euphoria doesn’t have to be the goal, maybe gender neutral is actually okay? Maybe good enough is…good enough?

Like sex positivity and body positivity, gender euphoria is a powerful way for a community to reclaim something that has historically been denigrated or marginalised. It can also be powerful for individuals in the community. Holding it up as the gold standard that everyone has to reach though? That becomes yet another thing for us to fail at. That’s why I like neutrality as a realistic goal, that hopefully still allows us to feel good about ourselves more broadly. Does that make sense?

For what it’s worth, you’re not alone. I mostly feel “eh” about words used to describe my gender. I’ve done my examination, I’m settled on woman, it doesn’t feel euphoric, but it’s close enough. I find my joy in other ways.

How does it feel to look at your gender this way?

Meant to post this a while ago, but logging in was difficult because the "login" page doesn't work and you need to find some weird seperate page to do it. Here's what I wrote a while back:

Yeah... I said in my original post "I know it's not a universal experience, but I just feel put down by it." so I get what you mean by gender neutrality being a more realistic goal for most people.

I just wish I had a better goal to feel more comfortable? Like, they/them is good enough. Doesn't /bother me/ beyond the "I wish I felt stronger about this"

Post getting messy so putting it in numbers.
1. Many people describe cutting their hair or changing their appearance in some way help them feel more happy with their identity. But I don't know about doing any of that. I'm really really attached to my hair, and if I did go to cut it I'm terrified of the idea of whoever cutting it deciding to "do their own thing" instead of what I ask for, since that's happened to several people I know. Like, "oh you're a girl and you want short hair? You *don't* want it to look fem?? Whatever, now you have a Karen haircut". I know there are tips like going to a barber shop instead, but all of these options cost money which we don't really have. I've thought of cutting it as a highschool graduation thing, but the idea of it being done wrong really really scares me.

2. There are a lot of they/them characters (and one real person) that I really admire and sometimes wish I looked like. But I don't like putting effort into appearance! I just want to wear PJs and whatever I want... but that doesn't help Me and my trans-masc friend often feel kind of sad about how, if you're AMAB and want to look gender-non-conforming, you could wear a skirt or wear makeup or whatever other girly clothes. But if you're AFAB and want to look gender-non-conforming, you have to... put a lot of effort into it, I guess? Me and my brother share clothes all the time, my mom's clothes are mostly stuff she got from the boy's isle. But none of that is "looking gender-non-conforming" anymore, it's just "not wearing girly clothes." There doesn't seem to be an easy way to do it.

Hey crowcaw!

Technical stuff:Just a note to say I tried logging myself out and clicking the login link in the top-right corner of the page (which takes you here: ucp.php?mode=login) but didn't have any issues logging back in. Can I ask if there were any error messages and what browser you're using? I know one of our staff did have issues logging in a couple of weeks ago.

Gender stuff: I'm relating a lot to much of what you're saying. That sense of disatisfaction with the language, or the modes of self expression available to you is certainly a thing I have experienced.

I know gender-affirming language can be very empowering for lots of people but there are sometimes implications in popular ways of speaking about these things that sometimes seem enthusiasctic to a fault with regards to what that language can actually achieve. There's an expectation that we should be experiencing something like what you describe as "Gender Euphoria" when someone usese the right pronouns, or we find the right haircut/outfit... which for me and for many, particularly non-binary people I know, has never really happened.

I will say that while I generally cut my own hair, I have enjoyed having my hair cut by friends, or by other queer people and it can become somthing that isn't really about how it looks, but just an experience among friends (I'm sure many a janky styling trend has originated that way). So maybe if, at this point, there isn't really a haircut you can ask for or anything it could be useful to explore your local queer scene, find out if anyone is cutting hair, see what their work looks like. Looking at things in a far vaguer way, making a mental scrapbook, can help you navigate some of this stuff in the future.

It's also ok to be like "There's nothing I like right now" and leave it at that for the meantime.

I was going to say what Jacob did: I can really relate to this, too. And, like you, I would say the rare times I feel what I understand gender euphoria to feel like for people have been either when gender has been completely removed from an otherwise gendered situation when it comes to me, or when someone has just been confused about my gender to the point of not having any idea. I also feel a lot like you do about pronouns: "she" bums me out hard, "he" doesn't bother me, but doesn't feel like a fit, and "they/them" doesn't fill me with joy, it just is the best fit of currently available choices.

Too, my body and presentation stuff around gender really only comes up in the context of other people. Alone, I can look any of the many ways I look, dress any way, and feel just fine. It's when other people decide that my body, its parts, my clothes, my hair, my face, have a given gender or are an expression of my gender. How could I be expressing a thing that literally isn't there for me?

I also was going to suggest learning to cut your hair yourself to start. I mostly cut my own (and have trimmed Jacob's!), and while I have learned over decades, I did recently hone my skills a few years ago with a couple online classes that were totally worth the cost. I do want to add that I also love my hair. When I was growing up, all the men around, including my Dad, had long hair, and my mother's was usually short. I have my Dad's hair texture, and having it be long and wild provides a feeling of swagger for me that isn't attached to gender but is attached to my sense of myself. So, I feel you. Bad haircuts have gutted me in ways that have left me feeling very silly about how big my feelings were, but we feel how we feel, you know?

If you don't want to cut it yourself, we've helped people find trans/GNC salons or stylists before, and would be happy to help you. You also can ask someone whose haircut looks like what you want where they got theirs cut.

About login: If I am logged out and click "reply" on someone's post, it takes me to a login page with small boxes that works. But If I try to use the normal login page (https://www.scarleteen.com/user/login) I enter the login and it just reloads without logging in, even in different browsers. No error codes. (though I use firefox primarily).

gender issues: Thank you both for your feedback! It's nice to hear from people who relate and I feel far better than I did when I first made the post. I'm thinking of cosplaying more, since that's something fun with my appearance I can do with friends instead of just "slight variations on my appearance at home".

crowcaw73 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 3:14 pm About login: If I am logged out and click "reply" on someone's post, it takes me to a login page with small boxes that works. But If I try to use the normal login page (https://www.scarleteen.com/user/login) I enter the login and it just reloads without logging in, even in different browsers. No error codes. (though I use firefox primarily).

Gotcha! So everything is actually working as it should but I think it's more confusing than it needs to be, so I think we can try and change the wording on those pages.

/user/login is for staff access to the main site, whereas clicking 'log in' from anywhere within message boards, as you have done, takes you to the message board specific login page.

Thanks for explaining what went wrong, so I can improve stuff. I'm also glad what else I had to share was useful!