Scarleteen

(Context: I am a 24-year-old trans woman who's unpacking a lot of stuff from her childhood.)

So, I finally talked to my mom about sexuality recently -- the parental control software they put on the family computer came up, and it spiraled from there -- and I asked, "what would you have told me if I'd been brave enough when I was 13-14 to tell you I enjoyed looking at porn comics frequently, or that I was frustrated that the parental control software was blocking me from them, or that I was fascinated with the idea of the succubus because I had thought that sexual desires were something I was supposed to grow out of and hadn't realized that acting on them could be good and fulfilling for adults until I saw it framed as being like relief from hunger?" And she told me that she wasn't sure, but that if I'd been clear about how bad it felt, she and Dad would probably have taken me to a therapist because they wouldn't have known what to do in that scenario.

Here's the thing, though: I've been talking to therapists for years now about other stuff, and I've never felt like my high and early sex drive is something that would need therapeutic treatment -- because I've never felt like I couldn't control it or that it had impacted any part of my life besides my other hobbies. But ... even when I've been in a committed, cohabitating relationship as an adult where I was having sex regularly, I've still found that it's impossible for me to not treat sex or sexual urges as my highest priority, and ... I'm in a weird lacuna between "my interest in and fascination with sex is higher than what is socially acceptable or even feasible within the bounds of my relationships, and it makes some sense under the social model of disability that I could be described as having compulsive sexual behavior/hypersexuality" and "but I don't WANT to learn how to focus on or prioritize other things, I want people to recognize that I have higher needs than most people and help me fulfill them!"

So, my question is mostly ... do you think it makes sense to pursue therapy? Are there things that it could help me with that I'm not considering? Or is it just going to be about self-control/self-denial/however else they want to frame the idea that wanting sex all the time is something wrong with me and not with society?

Hey Halcyon,

(I like your username!)

Welcome to the boards! It seems like you have a lot of self-awareness regarding your relationship with sex. I'm about to attend school for counseling, so my response could be a bit biased, as I am one of those people who believe that one doesn't necessarily need to seek out therapy to "fix" or "treat" anything, but rather just have a space to unload. You mentioned that you're unpacking a lot of experiences from your youth. Plus, the idea of conforming to society's standards of what a "normal" sex drive is, especially if you feel like yours is controllable and doesn't impact your daily functioning, seems frustrating and difficult to delve into on your own. With that being said, it wouldn't hurt to see a therapist, but it's important to make your boundaries clear. It could help to get an outsider's perspective on this battle you're facing, as well as the experiences from your youth that you're reflecting on and working through. I do want to mention that a therapist should not be labeling you off the bat like that, and if you've had experiences where they have done something similar, then that's just not right. So, have your previous experiences with therapy been any good? Or have they been accusatory like that? Also, if you decide to not pursue therapy, do you have any friends or a support system that you can talk about this with? Again, I think that an outsider's perspective could be key. What do you think?

Hi Nicole!

one doesn't necessarily need to seek out therapy to "fix" or "treat" anything, but rather just have a space to unload. [...]
a therapist should not be labeling you off the bat like that [...] do you have any friends or a support system that you can talk about this with?

I'm very lucky to have friends I can talk about this with at length. The reason I'm considering therapy is that so far none of them have been able to offer solutions -- if they all lived in my city, they could probably help, but the Internet allows for a certain clustering of compatible people that the world offline does not, and I've had an incredibly hard time meeting people whose houses I can take the bus to, let alone who would be able to touch me as frequently as I need. Because of this, I am looking to therapy for a diagnosis, in the hopes that it could open up some kind of resources of which I haven't previously been aware -- I've spoken to my general practitioner about touch starvation in general, but so far I haven't really been pointed in the direction of resources to deal with that. I can unload with my friends; a therapist had better offer me solutions so I don't have to pick it up when I'm done.

the idea of conforming to society's standards of what a "normal" sex drive is, especially if you feel like yours is controllable and doesn't impact your daily functioning

Well, there's the thing. It's controllable to the extent that I can fulfill what is expected of me at a job. It's not, I'm growing to understand, particularly controllable on my own time, because it remains unfulfilled. I'd be perfectly happy in my nonconformity if I was getting the kind of contact I crave, but so far I don't have any mechanisms for doing that -- even if I really don't want to assimilate, I'm worried that it's necessary for survival.

Hi Halcyon,

I do think there could be some merit to digging into this with a therapist, particularly a sex positive one or just a straight-up sex therapist, since it seems like this might have hit a point where you're noticing it impacting other things that matter to you. A diagnosis might be tricky, because while there are "sexual disorders" listed in the DSM, there's the issue of to what degree those identify real concerns versus just reinforcing narrow ideas about what constitutes "normal" sexual desire. If you'd like help locating a therapist who'd be a good fit for addressing what's going on, that's certainly something we can help with.

You mention that your sex drive feels like your highest priority and that it's very hard to control on your own time. Can you say a little more about what that looks like? Does it feel like other things that do matter to you are getting neglected as a result of that desire for sex?

It does feel like other things that matter to me are getting neglected -- even when I have time to work on creative pursuits or go read at the park or take care of my living space or even just get out of the house and do something, I feel like I end up staying at home and masturbating or messaging with long-distance lovers because it's easier and because it affects me emotionally/neurochemically in a way that the others don't. It also makes it difficult for me to find in-person companionship because of the online clustering effect -- if I want physical contact, I have to give up "people who understand me intimately and share my niche (and often impossible) kinks" for the exhausting grind of dating apps and scheduling and transportation time, all just to have sex with people who can only touch me all-too-infrequently within the context of human bodies and negotiated mutual consent -- the latter of which is primarily a concern because I feel like my sex drive has historically outstripped a lot of partners' and I feel like the only options to resolve it are to control partners (bad for everyone) or abnegate my own control (doesn't actually make other people want to touch me more).

I find myself returning again and again to "Touch" in Mira Bellwether's Fucking Trans Women (NSFW https://archive.org/details/fucking-tra ... 6/mode/2up) -- yes, I'm touch-starved in general because of the atomization of American society, but I also feel touch-starved intimately. When I was in an in-person relationship, my partners would just ... do other things, even if they were in the same space as me, and I get that they had other things that they wanted to do, but it made me feel anxious and upset that they weren't also touching me, that I had given my body to them and they weren't using or appreciating that gift. So many of my problems feel dependent on others' actions that therapy feels pointless -- I can be brave and clear and open all I want, but there's no way to say "it feels like a violation of my boundaries when you aren't touching me" under current models of consent, because other people don't necessarily want to touch me all the time.

Hey there, Halcyon.

If it's helpful at all, whatever my possible issues at hand are that have me considering therapy (if I am not already in it, mind, which I usually am), I tend to ask myself these sorts of questions to help me clarify my needs around it:
• Do I need some extra support and help right now that a therapist can likely provide?
• Is there somewhere I feel like I need to do some personal growth around, and is that something a therapist can help me with?
• Do I feel stuck with something?
• Do I feel like with a given thing, or as a whole, I've tapped out what I can get from myself and those around me, and I need some extra help?

In your case, I also wonder if it might be worth asking yourself if it might be helpful to think about if it might be of value to you to get an objective source to help you go through all of this and work out what is and what isn't actually problematic for you and your relationships. In your posts in this thread, I am hearing a lot of uncertainty about that, and feel like even just having some sessions with someone to help you work through that piece alone could probably be helpful.

Personally, the issues I'm seeing when it comes to your desire for sex isn't about what's normal in terms of what you want when it comes to frequency. That's just one of those things that's both really diverse, and also tends to stigmatize people that some nonexistent normal says what "too much" and "not enough" are.

But when you talk about things like resenting partners for doing other things that aren't touching you, and feeling kind of like a bottomless pit in terms of no amount of touch feeling like enough, that sounds to me like something where a therapist could potentially really help with things like potentially finding out if there's anything underneath that constant craving you might want to make sense of, how to be with partners in a way that works for you and them even when the desire for touch doesn't feel like a match, and maybe also some ways to fill this feeling of need that aren't just sexual or from others.

Were I in your spot, and decided to look for therapy around it, the kind of therapist I'd be looking for is a sex therapist, and also someone ideally very somatic in their approaches and focus. Oregon is a pretty good place to be in to find that kind of help.

I appreciate the advice and I may well look into a sex therapist with a somatic approach, but I'm not sure if I've entirely communicated my problem? I'm not concerned with any stigma or help managing my emotions, I'm concerned with access. I have tools to deal with resentment and relationship struggles. There's all kinds of things underneath that constant craving that I don't particularly feel like sharing here -- I don't know where you're getting uncertainty about what does or does not work apart from me not explicitly saying what those things are, and it worries me when you say "ways to fill this feeling of need that aren't just sexual or from others". Yes, those may be necessary as a last resort, but I never said I felt like a bottomless pit -- just that the bottom of my pit was much deeper! Just because I haven't gotten enough touch yet doesn't mean that no amount of touch will satisfy me, and I would rather figure out ways to get more instead of defaulting directly to "it's hopeless".

[Editing for additional clarity:] I think, like ... on some level it perpetuates the stigma when you default to "there's something underneath it" or "you should look for other solutions" -- and I know there's a limit to what help you can provide, but it makes me feel like you don't believe my assessment of the problem as "my sex drive is higher than most people's and I deserve to have those needs met".

Hi, Halcyon. I'm sorry if you feel like we're missing you here.

I assure you, I don't assume that because someone has a desire for more frequent sex than others (I don't use the term "sex drive" because it tends to be an inaccurate description of how we know human sexual desire does and doesn't work) that something must be wrong or that they are pathological. I myself am someone who has been that way most of my life -- who has had more frequent desire for sex than most of my partners -- if it helps to know that.

I said some of what I did because I'm seeing you describe what could be -- or may not be -- two separate things here: a desire for sex and a desire for touch. Those aren't usually the same thing, even though they can obviously intersect. You also said:

When I was in an in-person relationship, my partners would just ... do other things, even if they were in the same space as me, and I get that they had other things that they wanted to do, but it made me feel anxious and upset that they weren't also touching me, that I had given my body to them and they weren't using or appreciating that gift.

That, to me, sounds like something different than a frequent or even constant desire for sex. You're saying here that not being touched when you could be is upsetting to you, and that's the piece that to me, were it me, I'd be like, "Hmm, that seems like something I should investigate," because we should be able to accept not being touched by others when they're busy with other things pretty easily. And I do think that if we're talking about that level of need, to the point where you feel you aren't appreciated and feel anxious if someone isn't touching you when you want it, that is something that maybe shouldn't be answered by just being touched all the time or being sexual all the time, because it's going to be hard to create those kinds of scenarios that are emotionally healthy for you and/or other folks, and where it might help you most to find some answers or strategies for that that aren't just getting all the touch you want when you want it OR being upset and anxious when you can't.

I also am reading you saying that you want some kind of diagnosis around this, and while I can't say if there is one, a sex therapist would certainly be the right person to start with for that. If you need any help finding one, we can probably help you with that.

That all said, it also may be that some of this is just about you wanting sex more often than any one partner is offering, in which case, if you haven't already been constructing or thinking about open relationships, that also is a potential next step here. By all means, for those of us who desire sex more often than we find a given partner does, this is one common way some of us go about answering those desires. I'm happy to talk with you about that if you want.

I appreciate your thoughtful response; thank you for putting some of my fears to rest.

I'm well acquainted with polyamory; the major problem I run into there is transportation and access to partners. Having to schedule time together and coordinate transportation and what we're doing and making the most of the limited time in our schedules makes me feel rushed, trying to cram everything I need or want into what moments we have together -- I've lived with partners before, but I'm not confident in being able to do so again soon.

I think that the way you're framing this as "not being touched when I want" is ... telling, because in my head it's far more about "others not wanting to touch me". There isn't a "when" I want, at least not yet -- I haven't ever been in a scenario where I would say "no" or "I'm busy" or "I'd rather do something else" unless I'm using the toilet or eating. There are certainly times when I recognize that it would make it harder to do other things if I was having sex or being touched non-sexually, but I don't feel like I've ever been ... satisfied enough for that to be a meaningful choice? (And I have been finding that a lot of non-sexual forms of touch feel unsatisfying when I can ask for them -- I'm not sure how much is "reminding me of my current lack of access to sexual touch" vs. "the kinds of touch I enjoy the most are usually perceived as intimate even when they don't necessarily hold that context for me".) Either way, it's frustrating when I feel like I've clearly communicated that I am fine with and indeed enjoy people touching me spontaneously -- and then they don't.

I do think I'm going to look into sex therapy to try and problem-solve, and I'll check back in if I need help -- but it's frustrating, if not unexpected, to hear that "it's going to be hard to create those kinds of scenarios that are emotionally healthy for you and/or other folks", because it's hard for me to care about my own emotional health at this point. I'd rather be hurt in a different way, ideally one that people at least know how to respond to if I decide I can't put up with it, than continue to feel the hurt I feel now.

Hi Halcyon,

I think it might be worth exploring where that pressure to cram everything into one visit is coming from. Do you feel like it's pressure you're putting on yourself? Like it's side effect of new relationship energy where you feel like you need to ALL THE THINGS with this person right now? And are the things you're feeling you have to cram into that time span all sexual? Or do they include other components of the relationship as well? I ask because, as you mentioned, living with partners isn't always a viable (or, in some cases, wise) option, but in order to actually find partners we have to figure out ways of navigating the logistics of dating.

I do think speaking with a sex therapist is a sound next step in all this, and I want to highlight some things from your response that it might be worth exploring with them. The first is that combined issue of you not caring about your own emotional health and you feeling hurt by other people not being able to give you the level of physical attention you want, because it sounds like those are sort of entwined.

Too, getting to the root of why it feels like harm when someone else isn't able to, doesn't want to, or doesn't think to, touch you could unravel a lot of this for you.

You may also want to explore this point with a sex therapist: "the kinds of touch I enjoy the most are usually perceived as intimate even when they don't necessarily hold that context for me." Obviously, what someone perceives as intimate, sexual, or both is very personal and will vary from person to person. But if you've noticed that you don't see things as intimate/sexual that the majority of people would read that way, that is something you'll have to learn how to navigate, even if it's just at the level of you and a partner understanding what each of you does, and does not, consider to be intimate touches.

Woof! Busy couple of days. So:

It's definitely not all sexual, it's all kinds of quality time. If I'm not living with someone, then opportunities to fuck and cuddle and cook together and watch/listen to shows together and collaborate on creative projects and parallel play and all SORTS of things feel so few and far between because we have our own homes to go to and maintain and the travel and housekeeping opportunity costs are immense.

I think the reason it feels like harm is because I have, both growing up and as an adult, been pretty touch-starved, partially due to personal experiences (homeschooled by parents who were not particularly open with touch) and partially due to the touch aversion present in the modern American culture that created them -- and then if someone can't or doesn't want to or doesn't think to touch me, that hurts because where else am I supposed to get it? I can't just be okay without it, that's not how humans work. It hurts because it sends the message "I will not fulfill a basic need of yours and I will not even express sympathy that you need it, let alone point you in the direction of someone better equipped to help". The part of me that would rather be abused than touch-starved is the same impulse that lets Paul Atreides keep his hand in the pain box in Dune -- yes, it's needless and coercive, but in that situation it's the only way to survive.

Living apart can for sure limit how much quality time we're able to spend with a partner (or with friends and family, for that matter). But the coordination and costs and time spent apart are just one of those realities of dating that we have to figure out how we're going to navigate if we want to find or connect with partners. Since it sounds like you've had at least one partner in the past, can you give me a sense of how all the logistics of that relationship happened? Are there things you found that worked that you could apply to finding future partners (including in a poly context if that ends up being something you want to pursue)?

As far as those feelings around harm, I do think this is another place where working with a sex therapist could be really beneficial. In particular, with the feeling like or thinking of a partner touching you as being one of two extremes: either they're touching you all the time when you're together or they're denying you something you need and doing so to send a deliberate message about how they view you. Neither of those things is realistic, and in order to have relationships that are both healthy and satisfying, it could help to figure out ways to accept the far more realistic middle ground, which is that a partner will likely do their best to touch you if they know that's important to you, but the moments when they're not doing that aren't about them denying you anything.

Too, with a good sex therapist, you two could brainstorm other ways of getting a lot of physical touch, such as going for a massage or going to a hair salon (lots of gentle, often pleasant touches there).

I do also feel like I should point out that abuse a) wouldn't necessarily mean you were less touch starved (plenty of abusers don't use physical means, or refuse to be physically demonstrative with the target of their abuse) and b)has far more long-term, severe consequences than not being touched by a partner as often as we want. That may be obvious, but I bring it up because that framing of "abuse vs getting your needs met" is something else to unpack with a sex therapist.

My only cohabitating romantic relationship involved me going "winter break is coming up and I really don't feel safe going back to my parents' house, would it be possible for me to stay with you" a month and a half into a relationship that started as a chance encounter, and that worked out enough that when COVID hit the following March I moved in again, and then we started looking for a house that we could live in while I finished college and I lived with them from that April to October, though the relationship ended that August largely due to me not managing my needs well. Cohabitation has been a factor of luck, and while I am trying to figure out how to move to where my current primary partner is, that takes time and more money than I have right now.

Dating apps have always been hostile to me because all the communication is one-on-one and there's no, like ... ability to be in proximity without a date? Discord servers have been much friendlier to me because they're like college in that there are other people around and other things to do and both I and people I'm interested can "show up" without it having to be an actual date -- we're already there and neither of us has to initiate or plan a meeting. I don't drink, I don't like concerts... and even if I did, it seems like everywhere people Show Up without it being an interpersonal thing has an entry cost these days, and I don't have that much money (which is why visiting a massage parlor or hair salon even once seems laughable). Even the Filipino community center where I volunteer is -- while supportive and wonderful and a place I have been able to ask people for hugs -- far enough from my house, not open for long enough, and usually not busy in the right way for me to talk and connect with people my age enough for it to be a reliable Place Where I Can Hang Out With People I'm Interested In. If you have suggestions to mitigate this, I'd be happy to hear them!

I also feel like you're misreading me when I talk about other people not wanting to touch me -- I said it sends a particular message, not that I think that message is deliberate. I know what people mean and I am capable of separating intent from received message, but that doesn't address the problem -- it's a bystander effect problem, where everybody assumes that I'm getting my touch needs met by other people and so nobody meets my needs. This is why I bring up abuse -- I of course know that abuse doesn't necessarily mean I will get my touch needs met, but I also don't know how to get them met without being abused. I'm not yet willing to face the terrible working conditions involved in sex work, although if it was safer I'd pursue that career in a heartbeat -- and while I'm sure there may be decent people out there who want to touch someone as often as I want to be touched, I haven't found any and don't know where to look, while our culture supplies me with so many narratives of abusers who act entitled to their victims' bodies in a way that makes me think I could get what I want ... and while abuse may have far more long-term, severe consequences than touch starvation (which, again, isn't about any one individual not touching me when I want but about not having other options when a partner says not right now), we at least have a social framework for addressing those consequences. There are shelters for victims of domestic violence; there aren't shelters for victims of isolation.

Hey, Halcyon: I don't have to bandwitdth to reply to you more fully today, but I do need to ask something of you in the interim. I need to be frank, but please know I don't want or intend to hurt your feelings or to make you feel bad.

Statements like this...

This is why I bring up abuse -- I of course know that abuse doesn't necessarily mean I will get my touch needs met, but I also don't know how to get them met without being abused. I'm not yet willing to face the terrible working conditions involved in sex work, although if it was safer I'd pursue that career in a heartbeat -- and while I'm sure there may be decent people out there who want to touch someone as often as I want to be touched, I haven't found any and don't know where to look, while our culture supplies me with so many narratives of abusers who act entitled to their victims' bodies in a way that makes me think I could get what I want ... and while abuse may have far more long-term, severe consequences than touch starvation (which, again, isn't about any one individual not touching me when I want but about not having other options when a partner says not right now), we at least have a social framework for addressing those consequences. There are shelters for victims of domestic violence; there aren't shelters for victims of isolation.

...feel pretty awful and insensitive to me as a survivor of several different kinds of abuse and violence as well as someone who has worked with so many people in life and work to get them out of or help them heal from these kinds of abuse. Talking about abuse as a way to get wanted touch, or comparing not being touched when you want to be in any way to the harm of violence, feels like a framing of abuse that I think deeply minimizes and wholly misrepresents the impacts of physical and sexual abuse. I'm not the only survivor here by a long shot, so I suspect I'm not the only one who experiences statements like this the way I am.

I need to ask that you just please keep in mind that you're in community here, not one-on-one therapy (and I do think this is a good example of how therapy could be beneficial to you, because it allows you to talk more freely than you can in community), and a community with survivors of abuse in it, okay? <3

That is absolutely reasonable; I am sorry I was insensitive and you did not make me feel bad by saying so. I am also sorry about the delay in getting back to you; I had other stuff on my plate today.

Going forward, what is a good way that I can demonstrate that I am keeping the safety of community members in mind? "Just keeping it in mind" is too vague for me to act on -- it doesn't point me at a specific action to take or specific content guidelines, and while I understand that what I said minimized survivors' experiences, I don't understand how (as in, I do not understand how what I said came across as "I think what I am saying is a good and accurate perspective on how to meet my needs" as opposed to "this is why I have the perspective I do, is there information I'm missing?"), so I don't know what to change in the future.

[ETA, for clarity's sake: I do not think my current hurt is comparable to being abused. I was trying to say that I feel like I cannot alleviate my current hurt without accepting far worse hurt.]

Hi Halcyon,

Thank you for that question. Heather is out today but I'm going to bring it to them when I next see them.

In the meantime, I really do think that seeking out a sex therapist would be a sound next step for you if possible (or even a therapist who is sex positive and competent in discussing those issues). There's just a lot of stuff around touch, need, and distress that I think will be best addressed by someone in a one on one, therapeutic context.

Thanks for the update; I have been scheduling some consults with sex therapists in my area. Thank you for recognizing the distress aspect.

Hey, Halcyon, I really appreciate the way you replied to my ask. Thank you.

I'm going to try and answer what you're asking for as best I can.

I think a "how" that can be helpful is to figure that you are talking to an abuse survivor when you write. You don't strike me as an insensitive person, so that may tend to this stuff all by itself. I also think the way you explained what you were trying to say was better in this respect, if that's helpful. <3

Were y'all waiting for me to get back to you?

Hi Halcyon,

I think at this point we were taking our cues from you as to whether you think this is all something to keep talking about here, or whether it makes the most sense for us to help you figure out how to access and work with a therapist who can really dig into this with you.

Agh, heck, okay. Was gonna check back in but then life came at me -- I think ultimately I do need to access a therapist, but money is tight right now, and I just need to wait for that to clear up.

I have also been learning/uncovering more about some of my own emotions and responses independently, and I do think that a lot of this is coming from stress or something similar, and that I probably would be able to feel significantly greater satisfaction from intimacy if that was addressed. Unfortunately, most of my stress is just coming from shit life syndrome, so I don't quite know what to do about that.

I think that realization about stress is a very helpful one to have had! And I hope you're able to connect with a therapist soon, if only because they may be able to help with some amount of that.

With the overall crummy life stuff, I've seen people address that a few different ways. One is to dig into all the elements that are contributing to that crumminess and see if there are any, even if they're small, that they have some ability to fix or get rid of in some way. Another is to go what I call the "Dale Cooper" direction and do one, nice thing for themselves everyday, ideally something spontaneous. Even small, nice things can help break-up that feeling of everything being crap.