I kinda need help with everything

[ellie___]

Okay so I have a bunch of things I'm having trouble with. Firstly, my sexuality: I really really want to like guys, and I feel like I can be attracted to guys and enjoy looking at guys, doing some kinds of physical stuff like holding hands, being touched, etc, but I hate kissing them. Every time I've ever made out with a guy it's felt like kissing a brick wall and I just sit there waiting for it to be over. Sometimes I even open my eyes in the middle of it because I get bored. I know that's not normal and I don't really know why it's happening. I've only made out with three guys in my life though so maybe I just haven't found the right one yet? It's still kind of a pattern though and I don't want to keep getting with guys when it leaves me feeling kinda empty afterwards. But I still don't know if I LIKE them. And I feel like I could have sex with a man and in my head I want to do it but I just feel like if I don't like kissing them I won't like having sex, right? The furthest I've ever gone with a guy was getting fingered and that just felt kinda uncomfortable and not enjoyable for me, but I'm not sure if it was because he was bad at it or I wasn't getting turned on or both. But then again I feel like I have been turned on by guys in the past when they touch me/do certain things. I just really don't like kissing them- it just feels like having someone put their mouth on my mouth, which is exactly what it is.

And then for girls my situation is kinda different because I've only been with one girl but I did way more with her than I ever have with a guy. When I was kissing her I actually liked doing it and I didn't want to stop and doing stuff with her was really turning me on. And then when she fingered me or ate me out it felt really good and I'm not sure if she was just better at it or if it felt better because I was more aroused with her. And then I gave her head which I've never done to a guy and she also told me I lost my virginity and idk how I feel about that so I still haven't really decided if I technically lost my virginity or not and I'm not even really sure what virginity IS for two girls and how to tell when I actually have lost it. Oh and also she didn't want a relationship (I wanted one at first but then I decided I just didn't want one with her) and I've never actually been in a romantic relationship and having only hookups is kinda starting to get to me mentally. She still texts me sometimes but it's literally just to ask me to come over she doesn't even try to "talk" or whatever. And the last time we hooked up it left me feeling so shitty bc at the end she was just like "ok let's be done" and then I had to drive her home (bc I had just gotten my license but she still had her permit) and I was like wow okay I just got used. And I still kind of want her because I think I crave some kind of emotional connection and intimacy that I'm never going to get from her but I can't accept that she really doesn't care about me. I also don't think I can really separate sex from love though.

Okay and I also kind of have a problem with porn. Not a problem just confusion. I can't give myself an orgasm unless I'm watching one very specific kind of porn which is straight male perspective blowjob porn. It's ironic actually because the first time I saw a dick irl I almost cried and refused to do anything to him bc it was terrifying (but from what I've heard straight girls don't like giving blowjobs either so I'm not alone in that). I can't watch lesbian porn because it's so fake and they will be doing stuff that nobody would ever do and enjoy in real life so I just can't get into it. And when I'm watching a guy and a girl I can only watch it from the guy's perspective. I don't know if that makes me straight because it has a dick in it or gay because I'm watching it from the guy's perspective but it's literally the only way I can orgasm. And I hate the sound of guys moaning. I know a lot of girls get turned on by that but if I hear a guy moan it just turns me off and I get annoyed. But I obviously get turned on by hearing girls moan.

I also just hate liking girls because there's so much less options and it's so much harder and it feels so isolating a lot of the time.

[Sam W]

Hi ellie___ ,

So, from everything you're describing, it does sound like your sexual orientation is, if not lesbian, maybe bi, pan, or some other form of queer. It does sound like you experience much more intense or consistent sexual attraction to girls, but some folks who are bi, pan, etc notice that they experience attraction to different genders in different ways. As for how porn fits into all this, it does sound like the kind of sexual media you like tends to center on enjoying watching women in sexual scenarios, which is another indication that you're something other than straight (you're right that lesbian porn made for straight men is often not the greatest, but the suggestions in this piece might help you find lesbian porn that's more your style: https://www.scarleteen.com/article/sexu ... ueer_media).

But, it's important to keep in mind that all of the above is just my read on things. If and how you choose to define your sexual orientation, and what words you use to refer to it, is ultimately up to you. You--not me, not the internet, not anyone else--are the boss and the expert of your own feelings and experiences.

I hear you saying that liking girls feels hard and isolating, and goodness knows that can be the case. But there are also things you can do that might counteract some of those feelings. For instance, are you connected at all with the queer community in your area? Do you have friends or family who are lesbian, bi, etc?

[ellie___]

I'm the only (first?) gay person in my family so that makes it hard enough. Idk if any of my siblings are gay because I'm the oldest but if they are they're very lucky because I already had to go through the work of wearing my parents down to the idea of having a gay child. Especially with my mom it's hard to not be open with her but she has this weird thing where she's convinced that being gay is bad for me (I mean she's not 100% wrong considering what my sexuality has done to my mental health), but I don't think she understands that I literally don't have a choice in my sexuality because for years she's been trying to coax me back into being straight. She'll tell me stuff like "it's a much more difficult lifestyle" or "two girls are more dysfunctional than a man and a woman" or "gay women have a harder time dating" and ironically she's not even wrong. The problem is that she thinks she's being helpful when she's really not because again, she doesn't get that I can't just choose to change my sexuality so while she thinks she's giving me actionable advice in reality all she's doing is make me feel worse when I was already feeling vulnerable by sharing this side of me with her in the first place. (The weirdest one she ever said was when she essentially told me I was attracted to women because I had mommy issues, which was kind of a weird thing to hear from your own mother). But because of that I don't have any desire to tell her about the things that do happen to me with girls because anything negative just reinforces her pre-existing beliefs that two women are unnatural, while I'm trying to open her up to the idea of me being happy with another women- meanwhile I've only ever been with one other woman, and my experiences with her were pretty negative (sexually much more positive than with men, though- she was just an asshole). And that's the thing: girls are allowed to be assholes just as much as guys, and I can get played by a girl or used by a girl just like straight girls do with guys, but all of a sudden when it happens to me it's suddenly a "sign from the universe that I shouldn't be gay" whereas with straight girls it doesn't mean they should switch to women, it just means that the guy was an asshole. Idk maybe I'm assuming things about my mom, as I haven't actually told her any of this, but that's just kind of how I expect her to respond based on past interactions. At least I have my dad to tell stuff to- and I love and appreciate him so much for that, like he gives me girl advice and really is my #1 supporter, but there's no denying that a father-daughter relationship is inherently different than a mother-daughter one and I really wish I could have the same relationship with my mother as I do with him, but I just don't know if it's possible right now.

Most of my friends are very okay and comfortable with me liking girls (they have to be to keep up with my situationships and imaginationships) but at the same time all of my close friends are straight. Literally my last gay friend was a gay guy who lowkey hated me and actively helped ruin my mental health (and also left me a letter with a "joke" death threat and negative comments about my sexuality after I hooked up with another girl in his basement- like I understand that I made a mistake but he took it way too far). So he's not in my life anymore but that also means I have like no gay people in my life. Hopefully I can make new gay friends this year who aren't literally psychotic. But I also have this thing where I don't really strongly identify with being "gay" or "lgbtq". Like obviously I like girls so I am- I don't really have a choice because society chooses to label me and the label for someone who likes the same gender is gay. But I don't like being defined by a label or boxed into the "lgbtq" and I prefer to just view myself as a person with attractions like everyone else (one of the only things me and my ex gay "friend" agreed on) and I distance myself from the pride clubs, stuff like that, because I just want to be viewed as normal. Like I get a shock every few months when I remember that I'm gay- for context, I think about girls virtually every day. I just don't think of those thoughts as gay, I think of them as normal, and that's how I want everyone else to think of them so I feel like being super pridey and gay club-y would be counterproductive to that. Idk if that makes any sense.

[Amanda B]

Hi ellie_,

I hope it's okay I'm stepping in here. I'm sorry to hear it sounds like your relationship with your mom surrounding your sexuality has been complicated, and I'm glad to hear you do have some support from your dad and friends.

I see you've discussed feeling isolated for liking girls, while also feeling a resistance to engaging with LGBTQIA+ communities. It makes sense that you don't want to be confined by what other people may understand LGBTQIA+ identities to mean. Words you use to express your sexuality are your own. That said, LGBTQIA+ spaces can come in many forms. Have you tried engaging with LGBTQIA+ communities and spaces? If you have, how did you feel in the space? If not, what do you think may be holding you back? I know you mentioned just wanting to be viewed as normal. Can you speak to anything else that may be creating a boundary with exploring pride clubs and similar spaces?

[ellie___]

Like sometimes I go online but I don't really "fit in" in the online gay spaces if ykwim. Because everyone is so into different labels and like pronouns and stuff and they're usually like 13 and there's nothing WRONG with that, it's just not relevant to me at all and I don't engage with that kind of stuff- like the only thing queer about me is the fact that I'm attracted to women and even that doesn't feel "gay" to me. I don't even have a sexuality label because that's too much to deal with rn. I'm not going to the pride club with the emos and the furries or whatever. Also I have other stuff to do besides "engaging with the community" like I play sports, do clubs and homework, and attempt to have a social life why would I spend time on that. I just prefer to be normal and I HAPPEN to like girls and it's not exactly a secret but I don't go around declaring it either. It's just annoying every time I remember that there's really so few people like me irl. Like I have so many friends who can just go to a party or go out and meet a guy or hook up with a guy and that's just not how it works for me and it's so unfair. When I get older there's dating apps and stuff but high school just sucks for gay dating. Like even now I'm going into a summer program soon and everybody hooks up with people there (I used to hook up with guys at previous summer programs back when I was still interested in guys and it was so easy) but there is a legitimate concern that there's just going to be nobody there who's gay who I'm even interested in which is so annoying. So in that sense I guess I wish I was more connected to the community where I just wish there were more people (girls) in my life who were gay. I just don't want people to look at me and have their first thought be "oh she's gay" because there's so many other aspects of my identity that are more important to me than my sexuality.

[Sam W]

You know, if you don't want to have a label, or engage with certain queer spaces, that's absolutely okay! Sexual orientation, like basically any identity characteristic, is one where we can make it a large part of how we interact with the world or a small one (and honestly for most people it ends up being just one of many parts of themselves that can be more or less central to their lives as they move through it).

Part of why I, and others here, were asking about engagement with queer spaces and community is that it's one of the more obvious ways of making it easier to be a girl who wants to date other girls. Being in queer spaces removes the assumption that any girl is automatically looking to date boys and vice versa, and also means you're way more likely to bump into girls who want to date you than you might be in high school more generally. You're right that dating is generally easier for straight people, but there are actually a lot more queer folks out there than people assume. The trick is finding them which, as you pointed out, can be extra hard in a small environment like high school.

Too, being in spaces that are explicitly queer isn't mutually exclusive with having a social life, playing sports, or doing other "normal" things with your time. Queer, or at least queer friendly, social groups exist in basically all hobbies, and if you have an LGBT center nearby they are often where those groups and hobbies happen (or at the very least they can tell you where they do meet). So there could be ways to do things you already enjoy in a space where there's a higher chance of meeting girls who want to date girls. Too, if you really want to have a higher chance of meeting other gay girls in high school, you might want to give that Pride Club a second look, because that's where at least some of them are likely to be (and in my experience, not everyone in those clubs is an emo or a furry, although the ones who are are usually pretty chill people to have lunch with).

I think one of the trickier things about being human is that the degree to which we can control what other peoples first thoughts about us are is pretty limited. So, while there are things you can do to signal a certain identity is more or less important to you, I do think it's helpful to figure out how to be okay with the fact that when someone sees you, say, holding hands with a girl, they're main thought is going to be about your sexual orientation.

[ellie___]

no it just pisses me off when people talk or theorize about my sexuality especially behind my back because i KNOW those conversations have happened and i see the looks that ppl give me if the girl i used to hu w walks by or if someone mentions something gay. one time i used the word fag in a piece of historical fiction- like i don't even use that word in conversation but it was literally a historical fiction piece so ANYONE is allowed to use it in that context- and i could see two girls who i considered to be my friends look at each other and then start laughing to each other and whispering about it like they were in on some fucking secret. like it's not even that big of a secret that i'm gay but why does everyone act like some kind of fucking detective about it just mind your own business. and guys. i hate guys so fucking much they're so gross about it. one time a guy hid behind a staircase to watch me make out with another girl and i don't even want to KNOW what he would have seen if we hadn't caught him (and my friend's 13-year-old brother was there watching too which is so uncomfortable bc he goes to school with my brother). and then the next day in school he told the entire school hallway that he heard me "moaning at the top of my lungs while i hooked up with another girl". he didn't even apologize when i confronted him later like he couldn't even IMAGINE how that might have been embarrassing for me? i told his gf too bc she was literally in the house at the time and i was like "u know ur bf was watching me with another girl bc it turned him on like he was being really pervy and gross" and she didn't seem to find anything wrong with it either. why is everyone acting like this shit is okay?? and don't even get me started on the people who immediately ask me "so wait how do two girls have sex" the second they find out i like women. like no thank u i don't owe u a fucking description of my entire sexual history just because i came out to you so use google or your imagination if you're really curious. so i'm not really in the mood to be perceived as gayer lol. i'd also rather be gay the way i am now than weird gay if u know what i mean. it's possible to be normal and gay but those people aren't in the pride clubs or the lgbtq centers yk.

[ellie___]

okay also major departure from that entire conversation but another thing that really annoys me is when i have any sort of problem ever related to girls and every single counselor/adult figure is like "go to the gay centers". like have i struggled with my sexuality yes but getting played by a girl or feeling used or getting two std scares from the same girl but still going back to her bc i'm so attached (dw there were no actual stds) aren't "gay" problems and they're not going to be solved by an lgbtq help center. i have girl problems in the same way that straight girls have boy problems and the fact that everyone's response is so different just because my problems happen to be with the same gender is just another way of making me feel more different when people don't get that i'm NORMAL. even now the entire conversation has shifted into my sexuality and how i can connect with more gay people and how i can find lgbtq help when if you go back to my original post that's not even what i was TALKING about.

[Sam W]

I'm sorry that you dealt with so much grossness and violations of your privacy; and it doubly sucks that people didn't take those actions seriously because they were done to two girls. Sadly, there really is a tendency to assume sex and other intimacy between women is meant for spectators rather than the people involved.

Since you want to shift the conversation away from your sexuality, what would you like to talk about instead? Your initial post covered a few different things, so is there one you want to prioritize getting help or advice around? It sounds like the one to tackle might be your feelings about/dynamics with this other girl, but if that's not the case we can take things another direction.

I do want to say that one thing to keep in mind as we talk about all this, and about how to navigate things like dating and relationships, is that the very fact you're interested in and dating women is going to remove your ability to be perceived as normal in a lot of spaces and by a lot of people. In theory, it shouldn't; gay people can look and act and be interested in, well, everything. As you pointed out, there's probably more overlap in the struggles of dating while gay and dating while straight than not. But the reality is that a lot of people will see you holding hands with another girl, or find out that you're dating one, and lump you in with all the "weird" queer people without a second thought. So figuring out how to navigate your feelings around that is going to be part of your dating experience more generally.

[ellie___]

ok well my problem with the other girl who we'll call banana (because even tho she doesn't have a penis she's still a dick). basically i kinda had a crush on her and then she asked my friend to ask if i would "get with her" and bc i was stupid i assumed she liked me when she was actually just horny. so then i got attached and i hooked up with her but for some reason she rlly wanted to do it in my friend's basement which was so fucking stupid so we hooked up in my friend's basement and my friend's DAD walked in and it was so awful and it literally ruined my friendship with him and got me kicked out of his house permanently. but like this was the psychotic asshole gay guy friend. and then turns out banana didn't like me which broke my heart at first but then i realized her personality actually wasn't good at all and i wouldn't have wanted to date her anyway. oh also my ex friend left me this letter telling me everything he hated about me with a "death threat" but i couldn't turn it in bc it had stuff about like drinking in it but it's okay bc it wasn't a real death threat he was just being an asshole. then i made out with another guy bc banana was like over and i had a crisis bc it felt like kissing a brick wall even tho he was really hot. then my friend texted me that banana wanted to hook up with me AGAIN and bc i have no self respect i did it and i gave her head for the first time. that was the night that my friend's bf was watching us and it was so fucking awkward. and then after a while she was just like "ok let's be done" and we left and i felt so shitty bc i was hoping to get some sort of intimacy or just like positive feelings but i literally went home went to sleep alone and felt like shit. and then a few weeks later she texted me when she was super drunk begging me to come over and like sleep with her and i rlly wanted to but i didn't. then the next day she texted me a paragraph ab how she had CHLAMYDIA and that i needed to get tested bc of that one time i gave her head a few weeks ago. so i freaked tf out and literally almost outed myself to my parents (especially bc my mom doesn't like that i like girls so imagine what happens if i tell her i have to get an std test bc of a girl) and then ten minutes later she was like "haha get pranked" like what the fuck makes her think that was fucking funny. like that could have ruined so much for me wtf is wrong with her. so i left her on opened and i thought she got the hint but then apparently she didn't bc she liked my instagram story and then texted me asking "hey r u home". like wow i don't feel used at all banana thank u for reaching out. she didn't even bother with like a first sentence just straight to the point. but i was like ovulating so i was really horny but i was in another state and i told her i was getting back on friday but i actually stayed longer and didn't tell her i wasn't going to be back so i think she got annoyed but i'll never know bc then she went to camp so she doesn't have her phone and i don't have to deal with her for seven weeks. she's rlly hot tho and i want to hook up with her but i also want to force some intimacy out of her like cuddling or aftercare or something bc i'll go insane without it. like she's a girl how does she not need that? i have no fucking clue. and i was also lowkey thinking what if i went to the junior dance with her bc we have this weird dance where u NEED a date like u can't just go with friends but u also have to sign a form if ur gay and idk if it's worth it to sign the gay form for someone i don't even like. but i'm also like in love with her even tho i don't like her as a person if that makes any sense? i think i'm just bonded bc she took my virginity.

[Latha]

Hi there, Ellie! I hope you don't mind me jumping in while I'm on shift. Let me know if I'm missing anything.

Before I get to talking about this girl (and I will, in a moment) I want to say a few things about the friend you mentioned. From what I've understood, it doesn't seem like he was a very good friend, but I'm sorry your friendship ended like that anyway- the circumstances sound awful.

Just an aside on the use of the word 'psychotic': that word is used to describe a real and serious medical condition where people have difficulties telling what is real and what isn't. Using it to describe bad behavior stigmatizes people with the condition, and they really already have enough to deal with, don't they?

That isn't to say you are unjustified in expressing your frustration. Leaving you a letter with all things he hated about you was cruel enough, but including a death threat- even if it wasn't serious, or was a 'joke'- was truly unacceptable behavior from him. You've played it down, but I imagine it was scary. Am I correct in understanding that you didn't report it because you might get in trouble for drinking?

Also, you mentioned having a crisis after kissing that hot guy because it was dissatisfying. Do you want to talk about that? If so, what about it feeling 'like kissing a brick wall' gave you a crisis?

Now, about Banana. If you don't mind, I have a question: Are you really in love with her, or are you in love with what you hope she could give you?

It is so understandable that you want some sort of emotional reciprocation and intimacy from this girl. Queer loneliness is a real thing. But you can't make her want to give you those things. Intimacy isn't something girls need and boys don't- she may not be interested in that kind of relationship.

It really can hurt when someone we like doesn't return our feelings- but also, you said it yourself, you don't even like her as a person. If you go out with her, or go with her to this dance, it may just end up as unsatisfying as the previous incidents seemed, from your descriptions.

(On that note, you're right, this dance is weird- you need a date but you can't go with a friend and you need to sign a form if you're gay? What strange rules... are these official policies from the school, or are they perhaps socially enforced?)

Regarding STIs: It really was unkind of Banana to joke about you possibly having chlamydia. But let me tell you two things: One, getting an STI can be scary, but it isn't the end of the world. It can be difficult, but STIs are generally treatable and manageable. Of course, I understand your worry was about accessing healthcare when you might have to talk to your mother about what happened. That is reasonable. Two, practicing safer sex will help you mitigate such risks. For example, latex barriers like dental dams can help prevent the transmission of STIs like chlamydia. If you'd like, we can give you resources on sexual health and safer sex, or we can answer any questions you have.

[ellie___]

1. no he's fully getting threatened with the psych ward but bc of how badly everything went and how much he destabilized my mental health i'm honestly not concerned with his life anymore. ig i could have used a different word but it's just a figure of speech
2. ya my parents were strict and i didn't want the letter to become a huge thing so i just ignored it. it wasn't like he was actually gonna do anything he was just being an asshole bc i got him in trouble with his parents the night before.
3. that was the first guy i did anything with since being with a girl and also the most recent and i did it in part to prove to myself that i was still slightly straight. and so while i was kissing him i realized i didn't even like doing it and then i like opened my eyes in the middle of it to look around and basically i was so out of it that all i was thinking was "omg i'm gay". so then i like freaked out bc i don't want to be fully gay but ig i don't rlly have a choice.
4. no like i'm not in love with her but also i still rlly want her in a way that doesn't make sense bc she doesn't care about me and also i wouldn't even realistically want to date her. idk maybe i'm intimacy starved or something
5. no those are like the official rules of the dance, it's not enforced by the school it's like an outside thing but it is endorsed by the school so everyone goes. u have to go with a date of the opposite gender and if u want to go with a same-gender date u have to sign a form proving ur not "just friends" or whatever which is so stupid and also annoying bc why can the straight ppl go with their situationships but i can't go with mine without signing a form saying we're like dating.

[Sofi]

You're right in your frustrations about the dance, those rules are unfair and don't help your feelings of wanting to be perceived the same as everyone else. Society does "other" queer people, as you have unfortunately found out firsthand, and it's a valid thing to be frustrated and upset about.

Regarding this girl specifically, it sounds like it's less about her and more about craving intimacy, like you said. It might be best to let her go, since she's causing you to feel all these negative feelings. You deserve to be with someone who doesn't make you feel used, or abandoned, or any of that and who reciprocates your feelings and intentions. How do you feel about the thought of letting her go?

I did want to remind you that you're in a community space here and the message boards are public, so our users can and do read these posts. Many of our users as well as all of our staff are very involved in queer spaces and you have described us as being 'weird' and not normal, which creates the opposite of what our goal here is, which is a safe space where people can be themselves and not be judged or talked down on. It's okay for you to express your concerns about not being perceived as normal if you get involved in queer spaces and communities, but it's not okay to talk down on people who do choose to, make sense?

[ellie___]

wait i forgot about the dental dam thing and i just looked it up wouldn't putting a piece of latex there literally ruin the whole point? like would it even feel good with that thing in the way? idk i feel like i can typically trust other sixteen year olds to not have an std (she didn't even have one she was just being annoying and i also think she exaggerates how much she gets around).

i'm fine with letting her go and i don't even particularly want her in my life as a person but i rlly want her just bc the sex was rlly good and i'm attracted to her and i want that physical fulfillment yk. and then i keep thinking about her and i can't get her out of my head. but i don't want her emotionally and she'll never be there for me emotionally anyway. i'm trying to figure out how to separate sex from love and be able to do it without emotions involved so if anyone has advice on that that would be much appreciated.

[ellie___]

I've had a lot of struggles with my identity that I'm still trying to navigate. Firstly, it's becoming overwhelmingly clear that I'm not attracted to men (if you can give me a way to make kissing them not feeling like kissing a black hole I would love that) but I just never get that spark around them the way I do with women. I just feel like I could never marry a man because being intimate every day with someone I have no physical connection with would depress me so much. But because of that, my last link to heterosexuality is quickly disappearing and that is TERRIFYING to me because being perceived as gay is so different than being perceived as bi and if we're being honest I'm scared of being gay.

Almost everyone in my life is straight, and a lot of the time it's off-putting to straight people when someone is gay. Coming out is my least favorite thing in the world, and I wish we lived in a world where no one had to come out as anything. But we do, and so when I come out I make it as little of a deal as possible to avoid rocking the boat if that makes sense. Most of the time I just mention a girl and don't say a word about sexual identity. Like today: I was having lunch with my friend who I met through work, and we were talking about our lives and drama and everything, and my whole sneaky link situation with another girl came up in conversation (because the girl was a mutual friend of hers and the conversation just led to it). No mention of my sexuality, nothing, it was just NORMAL, we talked about it for a few minutes and moved on. She was completely straight, but she could engage just as well as if I was talking about a guy because I was approachable and "normal" and made the conversation about relationships, which everyone understands and which is the thing I actually care about, instead of constantly centering our conversation or my identity about being gay. That's all I want, is for the fact of me liking girls to be causal and normal, and the less I lean into gay stereotypes and heavily gay "communities" and the less I bring up and emphasize the point of me being gay, the more possible that is. That doesn't mean my sexuality is hidden- it's acknowledged, but silently, and we all just move on with our lives. Obviously there are always homophobic people who will hate me no matter what, but I find that on a broad scale, I don't get "othered" for liking women- I would get othered for being super declaratory about being gay and centering my identity around it. Not to mention every person is so different, so why are we even assuming that a community of all gay people would automatically be more relatable to me than a community not focused on sexuality? A lot of the time I resonate with straight people more than other gay people just because we're more similar as people- and who I am as a person isn't defined by my sexuality.

So that's basically what I'm saying. I'm not trying to make anyone feel less-than if they engage a lot with the queer community, and that's not to say I never will engage with the queer community either because I'm sure I will at some point. I'm just trying to explain why it's less important in my life and why I try to make those communities less present in my OWN life. And I obviously don't mean that every queer person is weird because by society's definitions I am also a queer person so why would I even make that stereotype about myself. I try to avoid that "weird" label for the reason that I'm in high school and I don't want my experience to revolve around an aspect of my identity that I didn't choose. But that goes for all types of identity; like people who go around constantly wearing Trump merch- or any political figure, for that matter- are also weird for making that such an integral part of themselves. I'm just saying I want to be seen as a multifaceted person and I don't want people to just look at me and go "oh she's gay".

[Sam W]

Hi ellie,

So, dental dams can change the sensation of oral sex, but people who use them still report it as being pleasurable. Too, making assumptions about other people's STI status is a really good way to, well, end up with an STI. Plenty of people aren't sexually active in high school, but plenty of people ARE, and we know that nearly half of all new STI cases happen in people ages 15-24. That's why we, and other sex ed organizations, are such big champions of people using barrier methods, including dental dams, for sexual activity.

When it comes to wanting to separate sex from love, is there a particular reason you want to be able to do that? For instance, are you getting the sense you're someone who prefers more casual sexual relationships to more long term, monogamous ones? Does having sex but not romance feel safer, emotionally? Something else?

There are a few things I want to pull out from your response about your sexuality, so bear with me okay? The first is that basically everyone in your life is straight. So, when you make assumptions about how much we center our sexuality, or how many of us lean into stereotypes, or how much you'd have in common with a group of queer people, you're doing so with basically no evidence and making decisions about where you would or would not fit in based on it.

To give you an example, I'm still in a group chat with my closest friends from high school who and we have, to a person, turned out to be queer, trans/nonbinary, or both (some of us knew back then, some of us only put it together more recently). But I'd say those identities come up very little, and either about big stuff, like being scared about anti-trans legislation, or almost...incidental? Like "check out my nonbinary pride eyeshadow look." And as someone who's had queer people in my life for, well, my entire life, that's really the pattern I think is the most common; for most people, queerness is one part of their identity that moves towards and away from the center of their interactions depending on relevance.

Too, I hear you explicitly saying being gay scares you. To be honest, I saw that in your responses even when before you made it so plain. And that's part of why I was asking you about whether or not you had ties to other queer people or places; because that fear you're describing is something a LOT of queer people have experienced, and I wanted to know if there were people in your life who might have been through something similar and could offer advice.

So, when you hear me, or other people here, say suggestions like that, know that we're not doing so because we think everyone who is queer has to, or should, make that the center of their identity; instead, we're thinking about all the users, friends, family, or moments in our own lives where what helped with fear around being gay, or frustrations around dating while gay, was finding another person who went "oh yeah, I've been there, do you want to know how I dealt with it?"

Finally, I hear you saying you don't want your identity to center on something you didn't have the ability to control. I also hear you saying you are, and want to be, "normal." But if I've learned nothing else in three decades, it's that "normal" is something entirely controlled by other people. Norms are generated by groups or cultures or families, and being normal will always be a slightly unachievable category because it's going to change as you change contexts. Too, for most of us there comes a time where something about us excludes us from that category. Of course, lots of people can and do base their choices on what will let the be seen as whatever "normal" is in that context, but in my experience that's exhausting. My bigger point here is that if you don't want your sexual orientation to be a defining trait of who you are, it's beneficial to think about what you DO want your defining traits to be other than "normal," so that you can work on cultivating the parts of yourself that are, truly, in your control.

[ellie___]

I'm definitely not a person who wants short-term sex instead of long-term relationships but my ex or whatever i'm even supposed to call her is and I want to be able to hook up with her especially over the summer without being emotionally devastated every time afterwards because she didn't care about me. I'm just trying to detach myself from her. Lots of people do fwb I'm just trying to figure out how to do it without feeling bad about myself yk.

It's not like I'm opposed to being friends with gay people that wouldn't make sense I'm opposed to being friends with gay people on the basis that we're all gay because that just isolates me from the rest of the world because like 95% of people are straight. Idk maybe part of it has to do with the fact that I grew up not understanding my sexuality so I just thought something was wrong with me when I was attracted to women (because think about describing what it feels like to have a crush without understanding what a crush is I literally thought I was a psychopath for feeling that way about other girls). So then I grew up terrified of anyone finding out about my sexuality and maybe I haven't quite grown out of that yet.

And fine if you're really going to force me to be honest and be like a therapist or whatever the reason I want to be normal is because I've spent enough time in the closet, and therefore in situations with all straight people who weren't aware I wasn't straight, to know how people who are openly gay are treated and talked about. I can never be popular popular because I don't like guys, and I'm not chasing that specifically. But I've seen over and over again people's social lives radically change after coming out, and the way people talk about them changing, and I'm sorry that I don't want that to happen to me. I already KNOW those conversations have happened behind my back even though nobody would ever say anything bad to my face. And maybe I keep trying to be normal so I can keep those conversations that way, behind my back, and have people treat me normally even though I secretly know it's pointless and everything is changing like my friend judging me for the clothes I started buying and the girls in my fucking English class talking about my sexuality even though it's none of their business. I NEED to be at least a little straight so I can talk about boys with other girls even though I don't even fucking like boys and it's terrifying that I'm going to be left out of everything because of it. But either way the less "gay" I act the more comfortable it is for everyone involved, including me, and I can like girls without acting "gay". And do I need gay friends probably but in case you've forgotten there's not actually that many gay people and most of the time I just don't connect with (or honestly have any desire to connect with) the ones at my school, and it's not my fault that I'm friends with straight people when most people are straight. And again, for the trans/nonbinary community (and I am NOT shaming anyone for anything I need you to understand that) I just don't relate with that and yes, those people are treated VERY differently by everyone else and I just don't want to be a part of that. That's not to say I would ever do or say anything harmful and I'm sure they're all great people but you have to understand the context of what I'm saying. If anything I need more friendships with straight guys (because they actually like girls) but so much of the time they're gross and pervy or just automatically assume that I want to get with them because I talked to them.

[ellie___]

I had a camp friend who I bonded with rlly quickly. Like I've never become best friends with anyone more instantly in my life. She was christian and hated gay people- one time she told me that she could never be friends with a gay person and then told me i was her best friend in the same sentence. ironic. she also used to make fun of me for being so boy-crazy (ig while i was faking it i went a little over-the-top) even tho i knew i didn't even like boys. and if she knew i was gay she never would have even talked to me. idk just thinking.

[Sam W]

So, I'm going to ask you a question and I want you to just sit with it for at least five minutes before typing a reply, okay? When you think about the fact that, in order for a lot of people to not treat you badly, or at least differently, you have to push a specific part of your identity so far away that it's functionally in the closet, how do you feel? Anger? Frustration? Resignation? Happiness? Ambivalence? And, most importantly, who do you feel that anger towards?

Too, when you think about being gay, if you don't want to come out now, or ever, you don't have to. That's a place where you're the boss of what happens? But what's the plan if, say, you meet a girl you want to date? Are you going to hide that? Never talk about her to people? It might help to do some thinking about what things would feel worth the risks of coming out. You don't even have to have an answer right now, but that's one of those things where being prepared tends to keep us from having a worse time down the line.

On a more practical level there are, in fact, way more gay people out there than you seem to be assuming; and that's even more true when we toss in all the other queer identities and nonbinary/trans folks. Now, there is, as you pointed out, the confounding variable of being in high school; even big high schools are a small slice of people your age, and the teen years are also a time when people are figuring out things like sexual orientation, so there are people around you who are gay but haven't quite worked that out yet. And there are also probably people at your school who are in the exact same boat as you; they know they're gay, but they're not sure they want anyone else to know. If you're happy with your friend group as it is, then there's no need to change it, I'm just pointing out that there are likely more gay people in your school than meets the eye. And if you're not happy with your friend group, we could certainly talk about ways to make the kinds of connections you do want.

Throughout our conversation here, you keep coming back to the idea that if you don't act gay, the unpleasant stuff will be less likely to happen. First off, I think it's worth asking yourself what you're picturing when you say "act gay," because, again, from your own description you haven't been around that many gay people to even know how they act.

But, more importantly, I'm going to let you in on one of the most aggravating realities of the world: there is no amount of "not acting gay" that will protect you from people being crappy. Honestly, it seems like you already know this, and that you've seen first hand that even doing your best to not act gay, people treat you differently and, generally, worse. I think you may already be figuring out that the idea that if someone just doesn't act too gay they'll be fine is a trap; it tells us that "we're fine with gay people, just not those drag queens" then "we're fine with gay people, just not the ones who are so loud asking for the right to marry" and on and on until we're at "we're fine with gay people, as long as we never have to see or think about them ever under any circumstances, ever, even a little bit."

We can certainly talk about how it feels to be realizing that, how it feels to have peers whispering behind your back and judging you for it, and we can talk about what might work when it comes to addressing those feelings. We can talk about how to deal with the very real fears of how people might treat you if you come out, or how they've treated you when you've been found out. But in any conversation here, we're going to be operating from the reality that there is nothing, save staying deeply and painfully closeted for their entire life, that a queer person can do to avoid being treated differently or badly for their sexual orientation.

[ellie___]

For your question: obviously I feel frustrated. But the situation is different than you think. People are super nice and understanding to my face and (don't kill me for using this word) they're "normal". People who know I like girls, people who know about my history with girls- they're fine. I'm not isolated because of that. Yes sometimes people say weird things and maybe talk about me differently but I'm not ISOLATED and for the overwhelming majority of the time I'm fine because we've progressed enough as a society where people understand that gay people exist. Even my doctor who was a middle aged woman who I thought would judge me for SURE was supportive (even tho she was confused at first as to how I could have had sex but never been penetrated by a penis until I reminded her gay people exist) and told my mom I was making very "healthy choices".

I just don't want to be one of "those" gays- and I know you say that society sees every gay as one of "those" gays, but in my experience (maybe high schoolers are different) that's not true. And ik there are some who view me and talk about me differently and even though that kills me there's nothing I can do about it besides minimize it.

For your second paragraph I think you have the wrong impression because I am mostly out already so idk what ur saying.

I'm so scared of the fact that I don't like guys. I'm more approachable and understandable to straight girls because I have a history with guys. The whole dynamic between me and others is completely thrown off if I reveal that I don't have any interest in guys. I don't know what to do. I think I'm just going to keep telling people I'm bi because it's easier. But doing physical stuff with guys depresses me. Idk.

Also I have a question about porn bc this is a sex ed site. What is like a normal amount of porn to watch, and what would be considered too much? Also the only kind of porn that turns me on is stuff that I'll never actually experience irl (hint i watch a lot of guy perspective porn and idek what that means for my sexuality) but I think I might be starting to desire stuff I can literally never get (like a blowjob). Idk if that makes any sense because I'm a girl and I'm not trans and I don't want to be a guy but I almost want to experience a blowjob the way a man does? Or maybe that's just because lesbian porn sucks so this is the next best thing.

You keep suggesting unpacking how it feels to have people whisper and talk about me or treat me badly because of my sexual orientation and that's the problem. I don't WANT to play the victim. So many people thrive off of playing the victim but I just don't want to be one of them. Yes it doesn't always feel fun to be gay, no shit, but the point is that although it inevitably will happen I can make my situation so it doesn't happen often and really minimize the impact of the judgement by not being super "gay". I'm no less attracted to women, I'm just not annoying about it and because of that people treat me better than if I was covered in pride flags and shit all the time. And I don't see why everyone keeps making that out to be a problem when it's actually a solution. It's not harming my mental health either. Coming out as not liking guys is WAY worse for my mental health than coming out as liking girls. I don't even come out anymore, I just mention something that points to me liking girls and while people are processing I just keep on talking and make it clear that there's no room for questions or a conversation, and people get it and move on with their lives and it doesn't have to be a big deal. Ideally.

[Michaela]

Hi Ellie,

I hope you don’t mind me jumping into your thread. First off I want to address your questions about porn. We can’t really say a number of what is the “proper amount” to watch or not because it depends on the person and what feels right to them. It might be too much if you find that watching porn is interfering with different aspects of your life, is that the case? It is also totally normal that fantasies do not always line up with our desires in the real world. A good way to approach fantasies is without judgment and if you want it to be something that only lives in your head for enjoyment then why not let your mind think of whatever is arousing to you? Since you mentioned lesbian porn again I wanted to re-link this article Sam shared above about finding more queer-centered sexual media. Have you had a chance to read through that article?

Because I am new to your thread and there is a lot that has been discussed here already I want to summarize some of the things so far to make sure I’m understanding things and to figure out the best way to move forward. So you are pretty certain you like only girls as those sexual experiences have been the only pleasurable ones for you. But, you are struggling with your identity of being gay because you are in a very heteronormative environment where you feel like being gay signals you out and where it becomes an overemphasized part of your identity. And something you are struggling with is having close friendships with other men and women after you come out to them (them acting weird around you, etc.) but you are not interested in pursuing queer spaces. Am I understanding some of the main points from this thread correctly? Are there other important ideas that you want to add?

A reason we tend to keep circling back to unpacking how you feel about certain things is because processing emotions is a really important step that can help us to better understand ourselves and situations. It is not “playing a victim” as you are not acting or performing these things you feel, they are your genuine experiences. Taking the time to reflect on them is definitely not thriving on them but providing yourself with the space to find clarity, as it seems like that is something that you came here originally to find. Is that still something you are interested in? If so we would be happy to keep diving into some of these experiences and your thoughts on them. Or do you have a more specific question about these things that you are experiencing that you want to ask?

[ellie___]

Oh also I was under the impression all year that I was going to be doing a summer program this summer and I was so excited because I thought I was going to have a chance to kind of reinvent myself, yk be more open about my identity and everything. And I was supposed to leave today but turns out I got dropped from the class because I didn't submit a vaccination and it was my fault because all the emails got sent to me but they went straight to my updates folder instead of primary, and I just never checked updates. So I cried literally all night and now my eyes are puffy and I don't know what to do and I've never been more mad at myself because I feel like my one chance to reinvent myself is gone and also the one thing I was looking forward to all summer. That's not really related to sexual health but it's all I've been thinking about.

Idk for me the main things are not liking men, which is something I've been really struggling with, and the problems that come with liking girls. Bi is so much nicer than lesbian (which isn't a word I would use anyway) and I'm fully aware that's internalized homophobia against myself but I just can't make myself comfortable with it. I almost don't even want to admit that I'm fully gay, even though I know I must be because I don't like doing stuff with guys and I can't imagine myself marrying a man. But it's so scary and idk how to deal with it.

[Heather]

Hey, ellie. I'm the founder and one of the directors of the site and its services. I've been keeping up with your posts but I haven't been able to engage with them, and I want to be honest with you and let you know why.

It's very clear you have a lot of internalized bias against a lot of different groups when it comes to anything other than straightness. But you have been *externalizing* it here in nearly all of your posts, which means that all those negative statements about some groups of people and ways of existing are things the rest of us -- some of whom are people who are in these groups, like us "weird queers," for example, or queer, gay or lesbian folks who don't meet your standards of normalcy. People you keep calling "those" people. You say your homophobia and related bias aren't harming your mental health. I think you don't realize that even if that's true, they can harm the mental health and well-being of some of the rest of us.

A lot of us have had to live with all the bias and bigotry around our orientations, identities and relationships for a long time, including in very direct ways: for me, that's about four decades worth, an experience you both have not yourself had and I don't think, reading some of your statements here, you actually yet understand the gravity of. You've posted some things that make clear you've been given little tastes of it, so I do think you potentially can understand it better and take it into consideration by applying some empathy to your ways of thinking.

Coming to find this kind of bias broadcast so much here, in this place I created in some part to be a safe space for all of us, no less (and boy oh boy have I dealt with en masse harassment for that: I have to even have a special address from the state I live in to make it harder for people to stalk me), a place where we don't have to worry about having to soak in that stuff, is not only painful and heartbreaking, it's also something that can make it very difficult to interact with you.

So, I need to ask something of you: I need you to remember that this is a community space where lots of people are reading, some of whom are the people you keep disparaging, dismissing or diminishing. I need you to change how you are posting here with that in mind, being more considerate of the whole community here. It may be that for some of what you want to talk about here, this just isn't an appropriate place, and you may need to find a setting where you can voice some of these feelings without causing others pain. Do you understand what I'm asking of you? Do you think you can try and change how you post here so that you can get what you need, but also keep the rest of us in mind?

[ellie___]

okay so it's been a few weeks and before i start i'll just apologize. i know why i have the perspective i do but this probably wasn't the place to voice it so i'm sorry for being inconsiderate. i was also having a really rough time with my identity so i think i just kept getting more and more angry at no one in particular and that was pretty evident through my posts.

anyway here's the problem i'm having now. i've basically had a summer of celibacy- the last time i kissed someone was two months ago and my last time doing anything sexual was way before that. so basically i've been rlly- yk. my wonderful sneaky link who makes me want to rip all of the hair out of my head every time i interact with her texted me a few days ago. basically our mutual friend is having a little bday event at the end of this month with both of us and then like eight other people. my sneaky link and i have only ever hooked up at group events (owing half to the fact that we both have relatively strict parents and i have cameras at my house, and half to a theory i have ab her having a public sex kink but that's a whole other thing) and based on something vague she texted me i think she's under the impression that we're going to be hooking up at the party (she only ever texts me to booty call me- isn't she so romantic). but when i tried to get her to elaborate she disappeared off the face of the planet bc that's what she does- she disappears. now don't get me wrong i want to hook up with her- if anything i don't want to wait until the end of the month- but it CANNOT happen at this party. between the guys, several of whom have a history of spying (i'm not in the mood to wind up on pornhub) and the fact that there's going to be a bunch of other ppl there, including her parents, i am just not comfortable with that. but how am i supposed to tell her that if she won't text me back? i literally cannot double text bc of my own pride. also the one and only time i tried to have a serious conversation with her she basically ran away from the topic, finally told me "i rlly liked getting w u so if u ever feel like hooking up give me a call!" and disappeared.

[Carly]

Hey ellie -- sorry to hear that this person has been hard to communicate with. Hate to say it, but the only two options I'm seeing are 1) double text anyway or 2) try to talk about it at the party. You're not going to be able to state your boundaries or discuss her expectations unless one of these things happens. If she dips during the conversation, that's on her, because you would have at least put your cards on the table. Does one feel more doable than the other?

I also want to address Heather's post and your apology. Your previous posts in this thread impacted our staff emotionally. Though I appreciate you taking the time to apologize up top, I don't think it's exactly fair to just breeze past that into another thing we can help you with without talking about it a little more. Do you understand Heather's ask to you in their response? It sounds like you're understanding how your feelings about yourself impacted the way you posted, but it would be helpful for us - as people who want to feel comfortable and safe engaging with you here - to understand how you're intending to change your tone and interact with us in the future. Does that make sense?