Scarleteen

Hello! It's been a while since I've been here, but I am always so thankful for this resource.

I've got a bit of a lengthy story, so I'll try to condense it down. About a year and a half ago, I moved to Virginia to try something new, and to explore a new poly relationship. The relationship ended up not working out - I got in very deep with one member, let's call him Jay, and realized that I was in way over my head, emotionally. Things became very tumultuous and there was a lot of hurt on both sides. I felt like it was all my fault, and Jay and I would have lengthy emotional discussions that would leave me drained and crying and apologizing, even though I sometimes didn't know what I was apologizing for or I felt very blindsided. But I know I did plenty of "wrong" and had things to apologize. Eventually, I officially broke things off, which was definitely very painful for both of us. Jay would get upset with me and I would end up shutting down and not talking and just kind of accepting whatever it was he had to say about what I had done or how I had behaved. I eventually worked up the courage to tell him that the reason I shut down was because he would get angry and say hurtful things to me, and lash out. He apologized and for a period of time our friendship was better.

Jay really wanted, and still wants, a sexual relationship with me, and I was unsure about whether or not that was still something I wanted with him. We were physical two times in the past, during a period of time where I wasn't sure whether or not I wanted a regular sexual relationship with him. I expressed this before both instances we were physical and he communicated to me that that was ok, we could take it moment by moment, and that he valued my friendship, so I felt better.

Recently, I've gotten into a fairly casual relationship with another guy. I have had some frustrations with this person, although mostly I feel good about it. I expressed some frustrations to Jay. Recently, he communicated that sometimes he still gets jealous or upset at the idea of me being with someone else. I apologized (I don't know, I just do that sometimes) and said I'll be more sensitive. He then expressed sadness that I did not seem to definitively want a sexual relationship with him and I explained that I was worried he only wanted to be friends with me in order to obtain a sexual relationship. He assured me he did not, he only wanted a sexual relationship if I wanted it too, and I stated that that was the kind of reassurance I needed and I had been anxious around him because of my fear that he was only trying to have sex with me.

The other night, Jay sent me a variety of text messages saying he was worried about me, that New Guy didn't seem respectful, that I had only negative things to say about him. I explained that I had been venting but was sorry if I had upset him and would be more sensitive, wouldn't bring up New Guy again, and that I was fine and was aware of the shortcomings in my relationship with New Guy, and that there were positives but I had simply not expressed them. He still kept sending texts about how New Guy seemed not so good and how it "broke his heart" that this "not so good guy" go to be intimate with me but he didn't. I apologized for offering "too much information" and for causing any hurt.

I woke up this morning and I feel very upset and icky. I feel weird about Jay having said it "broke his heart" that some other guy was physical with me when he couldn't be. I feel upset and kind of angry because I feel like his "worry" is just jealousy and resentment at me, and he's asking me to justify my choices as opposed to genuinely looking out for me. At the same time, I feel like this is all my fault, I'm a bad person and a bad friend. I don't want to talk to Jay about this because discussions with him can be exhausting and lengthy and I often end up feeling confused, like I was driving along a road and suddenly I am in the middle of a forest.

I also feel weird about Jay contrasting himself with New Guy, that New Guy is this total jerk and he is this total not-jerk, when Jay definitely caused me a lot of hurt in the relationship I had with him. Jay also stated that he felt I was holding him at arms length, and it felt like an accusation even though he said he wasn't accusing me of anything. Sometimes I feel he wants a particular kind of friendship and I'm not sure I can give that to him but I'm nervous about saying anything because it'll lead to long and lengthy discussions and I'll get blamed for something and I just don't have the energy for that right now.

I feel nervous and anxious about expressing things to Jay because I'm afraid it'll get turned around on me or I'll be asked to explain/justify my feelings, or other things, that I don't have words for. I feel overpowered.

I also feel like maybe I am being dramatic and typing that last little paragraph was hard, because I mostly feel weak and ineffective, and I keep beating myself up over being a baby, or not being strong enough to communicate or handle confrontation.

I don't know what I feel. A little part of me wants to say I feel manipulated? But I don't know, and saying that just makes me feel like I'm "letting myself off the hook" and getting out of a tough conversation. I don't know, I'm confused and having a hard time validating my feelings. I'm sorry if this is jumbled. Thank you in advance for your help, and please let me know if I can provide additional clarification.

Hi JB,

I'm glad you feel safe talking to us about stuff like this. I think your internal warning bells are reading Jay about right. There were several things that jumped out at me, including how you felt like you were always in the wrong when you two were in a romantic relationship, his jealousy and possessiveness (that he is telling you about and making you deal with, and not in a constructive way), and how unhappy and anxious you are at the thought of even talking to him. Those are all pretty classic red flags, especially coupled with the fact that he seems to be doing what he can to set himself up as the "better" choice compared to new guy so that you'll stop exploring a new relationship in order to pay attention to him. I think it is very on the mark to read him as manipulative.

You are not a bad person, and not a bad friend. You are keeping withing the boundaries that you and Jay established, and you are trying to salvage some relationship with him in spite of him continuing to be very unpleasant towards you. Those actions are coming from a good place, but ultimately this does not sound like someone to expend that amount of energy and emotion on.

Do you feel comfortable setting further boundaries with Jay? And do you have other friends (or partners) who make you happy and who you feel safe with?

Hi Sam,

Thank you for responding. I feel...relieved reading this, like it's not all in my head, which I was worried it was.

I don't know if I feel comfortable setting further boundaries, because we have a lot of friends and interests that overlap - we are in the same group that meets weekly for a tabletop game, for instance. Plus, if I do that, he'll want to have more discussions with me, and I don't know if I'm strong enough to resist that, or at the the very least not be an anxious wreck about ignoring him or resisting those conversations. I have other friends who I am very close to (physically, and emotionally) who I hang out with regularly, and New Guy has been fun, despite the challenges I sometimes have with him. With New Guy, when he does something that upsets me I can call him out on it firmly and he'll apologize.

I also feel nervous about setting boundaries because when we were poly, I went through periods of jealousy - Jay is married and if I am being honest his wife/my girlfriend never really felt like the kind of partner I needed/wanted. I know when I was jealous I was mostly angry at myself for feeling such negative feelings, and I tried to express them in the context of "I can't hold this in anymore but I hate letting it out." I'm worried if I try to call him out on his jealousy he'll bring up when I was jealous in the poly relationship, even though I feel like we're handling our respective jealousies differently.

He also recently texted me this morning that he appreciated me talking to him this weekend and I should tell him if I'm upset because he doesn't want to give me more reasons to be distant and he's scared of hurting me. Maybe I'm being too hard? Maybe he's sorry? Is it possible he's manipulating me but not MEANING to? I feel confused.

Hi JB,

You're quite welcome, I'm glad it's helpful. For that text message he sent? I'm betting on further manipulation. Because, in the past, when you've told him your feelings, or what was upsetting or bothering you, you end up apologizing or getting caught in an endless loop or having to justify what you felt (at least that's how it sounds from over here). So, my bet is if you were to take him up on his offer, you'd end up back in that pattern. Maybe he means it , but keeps screwing up in spite of his better intentions, but at a certain point his intent ceases to matter.

A few other thoughts. I would start focusing more of your social energy on your other friends and on new guy, in order to keep cultivating those supportive bonds (plus, its going to be more fun to hang out and talk with people who aren't jealous and constantly causing you to apologize). For friends where you two overlap, try hanging out with them in non-group spaces as well.

It's pretty normal to be anxious about setting boundaries, especially with someone who acts like Jay does. I think you're right that he might try to reason you out of the ones you decide on. But what you can do is the following: "My boundaries are not up for debate. If you continue to try and debate them or get me to explain them further, I am going to hang up/leave/otherwise end this interaction." If he ignores that boundary? Then leave/hang up, and go do something nice for yourself.

Ok. I'll try. It's hard. I feel like maybe I'm being overdramatic, maybe I catastrophize and things haven't been so bad sometimes when I express myself? I just have a hard time believing I'm a reliable narrator I guess so I worry maybe things have gotten better but I'm still too weak. I am definitely spending more time with the Fun Friends and I will try to work on setting boundaries, but I'm really nervous and scared about that and I don't know if I can do that right now. I'll try though.

Then perhaps what you need right now is some real space -- including texts or email -- from Jay? It sounds like you could use it to be able to think all of this through some more, and also just build up your emotional reserves so you do feel more capable standing up for yourself with him.

Hi JB,

I want to second Heather's suggestion, and also let you know that the way you're feeling is not weird or out of proportion. When you've been around someone who acts like Jay does, it can be really hard to gauge and trust your own gut and reactions. So, spending time without contact may make it easier to learn to trust your own internal voice.

That's a good suggestion, I'm going to try and achieve that. I'm worried that he'll ask why I need space and even if I just say "I just need some space" it'll just morph into a discussion and a source of anxiety for me. I feel so silly - I'm anxious talking to him and I'm anxious when I ignore him.

Thank you for the reassurance Sam. It's hard not to gaslight myself, if that makes sense? I think I do that really often.

He can ask why, and then you get to say whatever you want to, including, "It's space for me and I don't want to share with you right now." And as Sam suggested, if this is on the phone and he can't even respect that boundary, you just hang up the phone.

...and of course, if it's come to that, then when you do take that space, I think you need to accept that this has gone way, waaaaaaay south, and what you probably really need to do for yourself with some of that time and space is make a plan to just change your life so this person is not in it anymore.

I am trying to accept this has gone way south, it's been hard because there are times, like now, when he's offering to let me know if he's upset me and he's apologizing and being really grateful that I let him talk/vent. I'm gonna try to change things, but I think it'll have to be slow because I fear more upheaval.

Our breakup was incredibly intense and messy and I was at an incredibly low point in my life, I don't think my anxiety has been that bad for a while, and I was having lots of thoughts of self-harm (which I never acted on). Luckily I am seeing an awesome counselor.

Thank you both for validating me. I really needed to hear this.

(by the way, I love both of your awesomeness quotients, I just noticed them - too funny)

Something that has helped me out in relationships where there is abuse/control or manipulation is to remember that once either or both of those things are in there, I have to figure there may be NOTHING that is not part of those things. So, even communications or behavior that seems benign may well be a manipulation, and in hindsight with this stuff, you usually discover that's exactly what a lot of the "sweetness" was.

So, sure, maybe he's being sweet now, or maybe he's just using what he knows gets and keeps you in the kind of control he wants. Since the larger context of this relationship is very clearly controlling, at the very least, I'd suggest you figure that most, if not all, of what happens in it is part and parcel of that.

It makes it a lot easier, IMO, not to get sucked back in or gaslighted when you use that sort of approach and framework.