I'm confused...

[veggiemonster]

hi...so i just had a breakup recently and things have been pretty messed up since then. My boyfriend, and best friend, of almost two years broke up with me and things havent been alright with me. At first i was desperate and wanted to do anything i could to maintain a connection. i even told him i could ignore my feelings and be friends with benefits if that would be something he was interested in. At first he wasnt but then he eventually came over to talk about it. We talked a little but not enough before he started to kiss me. things got a little heated and we stopped and talked a bit more, still not enough. He kissed me again and things heated up again. at some point in this process i know i told him i was on my period, didnt want to have sex, and wasnt ready for it yet. but things kept going and neither of us were thinking clearly. anyway, he started having sex with me, but stopped because he said it was too many emotions and he couldnt do it. we talked a little more but things still didnt feel clear but he said he had to leave. somehow we were on slightly better terms after though. a week or so later, i realized that i wasnt desperate for a romantic relationship but did want to be real, honest friends, ive never been close to someone like ive been with him, and i really needed him as a friend in my life. we talked and he seemed super on board and interested. but at the end he started bringing up physical intimacy and sex. he said he felt different now and still very attracted to me but the emotions that made him stop before were under control now. he also brought up how before i said i could ignore my emotions and it would be fun. i told him i thought being physical would be a bad idea, even though i was physically attracted to him i knew i didnt trust him enough for that anymore. i said no and thought it was clear. we talked a bit more about it and other stuff and things seemed great. it seemed like we could actually hang out and be friends. later that night, he brought the sex thing back up, it felt like he kept pushing it and i just kind of got curious and wanted to see. he came over and we had sex but it was terrible. the whole time it felt like it was about him and i felt pushed and like he didnt care about me and there was no connection there. i felt used and gross. he offered to talk the next day but we ended up talking a bit right then, still not enough for things to be clear before he said he had to go again. the next day came around and i asked to talk, he seemed really reluctant and i had to push him to talk to me. we agreed it was a mistake and also to ignore it and move on. the day after that i texted him asking about something and he didnt text for a while. i got mad and brought up how we agreed he had to communicate more to make a friendship work and suddenly, even after everything he said about being friends, he said "i dont feel inclined to talk to you or hang out, sorry." i felt so used and got very depressed and started texting him nonstop like a crazy person. i felt like dying and like i was worthless. he didnt seem to care and was more annoyed that i was texting and being crazy. now i decided we are not on good terms and i dont think i want the friendship because he isnt the same person he used to be and the person he is becoming doesnt deserve me. but i keep thinking more and more about what happened that night we had sex, and the more i think about it the more i feel manipulated and used. i think i might have been raped, and its freaking me out and i dont know for sure. so i guess thats my question, was that rape? and what do i do? i talked to a friend and it helped a little but i really want some clarity because she wasnt sure

[veggiemonster]

sorry that it is super long im just super overwhelmed and have been having a really hard time and needed to get some stuff out and clear stuff up, ive never posted here before so idk if this is like a normal okay thing

[Heather]

I am so sorry to hear all of this, and it's absolutely fine what, and how, you have posted, veggiemonster.

How do you want to approach this? It seems like one big thing in this is that you are concerned you were sexually assaulted. Do you want to start there?

If you do, the core of sorting that out is looking at if you felt you did or did not consent to what happened, and if you did or did not feel like you were able to give (or withhold) consent.

[veggiemonster]

I believe that if i had asked to stop then he would have stopped. but what does it mean that looking back on it i feel like i was persuaded into it? earlier that day i had told him it was a bad idea. i shouldve stuck to my guns and went with it, but i faltered. i feel like it wasnt my fault though, after i said no, shouldnt he have just stopped bringing it up? does that mean something significant?

[Heather]

What I hear you saying is that you felt coerced: like you did NOT feel able to say no. And yes, after you set a limit and said no, he should have accepted that limit. When someone doesn't do that, and instead keeps pushing, that is, indeed, coercion.

[veggiemonster]

what does that make this situation then? is sex plus coercion mean rape? because thats how i have been thinking about it. at first i didnt want to think about it that way, but now i feel almost inclined to, and i dont know if its because i feel wronged and upset and want to have a scary title attached to it, like proof he did something wrong, or if it was actually rape by definition, or both

[veggiemonster]

and if its about for my own want to define it that way, is that unfair or untrue, or mean it wasnt rape or whatever im thinking? does any of this make sense?

[Heather]

Real consent is something that can only happen with real freedom, which very much includes feeling free to say no, and the other person respecting that. So, yes, when some kind of sex occurs within an environment of coercion, it is no longer considered consensual, and we're then usually talking about abuse or assault.

Really, the experts about whether or not sex between individuals was consensual are those individuals. What you feel this was, and how you feel about it, is what gets the most weight here, not what anyone else says about it.

What you want to do with that is up to you. I ind it helpful, however, to remind people that calling something assault isn't the same thing as charging someone with a crime. If you decide it is something you want to report to the justice system, then proving or disproving what this was will be for them to do, with the way they work. That's not something you can do just by calling this what you feel that it was. In other words, just calling something assault is not charging someone with assault or criminalizing someone else. Know what I mean?

[veggiemonster]

is it selfish of me to call it assault or abuse or rape then? i guess im the only person who can decide, but i tried to tell him how i feel and it got him mad and he said that i pushed it too, which i maybe did way back when i was feeling desparate and asking to be friends with benefits, but still even then i wanted to communicate more before hopping into anything, and at one point said i didnt want sex yet. but he says both incidents were as much my fault as his because i pushed it and brought it up and had said i wanted it. but i feel like the first time i needed more communication to be sure, even though i was the one to ask about being friends with benefits, and the second time i did say no but eventually gave and said okay because, like i said, i felt pushed and curious because of that as well. how much of this is on me?

[Heather]

No, I do not think so. Just like it wouldn't be selfish to call sex that was fully consensual consensual. At the same time, this is about you, your experiences, and your emotional needs, so it's also not like it isn't okay to BE selfish. Being "selfish" doesn't have to mean hurting anyone else, being self-absorbed or being a shit: what it means, at its core, is just focusing on yourself. And you get to do that.

I think it's fair to say that what you said about not wanting to be friends with this person now because of their behaviour is a very good idea. It sounds like this isn't someone safe for you in a bunch of ways, and I'd say it sounds to me like he's been demonstrating that quite clearly: with the coercion, with the refusal to take responsibility for things, with what sounds like some emotional manipulation, etc.

By all means, if you, yourself, engaged in any coercion of him in the past, then you did, and you'll want to work that through for yourself. But even if that is what happened, it doesn't make it okay for him to do, nor does it mean that he's not responsible for any time it is something he has done.

I can't tell you how much of this is about your own choices and actions: that's really one of those things that only you can sort out for yourself, over time. After all, I wasn't there or in your head: you were, so you're the expert of all that. But it sounds like you, unlike your ex, are pretty open and already into that thinking and exploring, so I don't see any cause for concern right now that you are evading responsibility where you may (or may not) have it.

Where would you like to take this from here?

[veggiemonster]

Im not sure where i can go with this. talking to him is like a brick wall, and i know i cant make him pay up but i really really want to (or sometimes, when i get really worked up, i would love to give him a big punch in the face honestly). i feel like i deserve something, and he doesnt agree, i think its okay for me to feel like he owes me something, because i loved him alot and he's been treating me like dirt. still i know that wont get me anywhere, i know all i can do is let it go, but i am an anxious person whose mind loves to run and run and think all the time. im bad at letting go in the first place, and this is one of the biggest things ive ever gone through. not just the assualt, but the whole breakup. he was my best friend and i would do anything for him, but he is just walking away and treating me like shit and everything is about him. thats not something i could do to anyone, especially a friend, even if we had been dating. i took things really seriously and dont deserve to be treated this way. i know i cant control him but i cant stop wishing it. idk, theoretically i know the answer is to let go, but in practice im depressed, lost, confused and dont know how to do that

[Heather]

I completely understand.

Do you think it might help to break this into more manageable, smaller chunks, rather than big sweeping gestures?

For example, how about you figure that for this week, you take care of yourself, and stick to talking to people you know to be supportive of you, and not have any contact with him. Going about this in smaller bits of time like that might be easier for you to sort through and go about, and I do think, again, this person doesn't sound safe for you in general, so just starting by staying away from them, for now, is a good way to go. It's also likely to make thinking through and processing this on your own a lot easier, since it sounds like he's been doing some gaslighting (twisting or spinning information or events to make you feel less strong in your own feelings and sense of things, and to favor him).

[Heather]

By the way, if you want to expand your support circle, your city does have a rape crisis support organization with a hotline. It's here: https://www.clevelandrapecrisis.org/

Might just be an additional person or group you can connect with where it's a given you will be supported, and who can help you through your thoughts and feelings with this well.

[veggiemonster]

i want to do that, and i know its a good idea. but most of the friends that i feel comfortable talking to about this situation are very good friends with both of us. they are supportive of me and great friends but also are there for him and supportive of him. we also see each other all the time because we share a class and both do the same sport (our distance track team is coached with both the boys and girls together). and thank you for the hotline, ive actually called it for a friend before but felt more comfortable coming here for some reason with my own stuff. i might call them later on though

[veggiemonster]

also if i need to talk about this with other friends who i havent already talked to, there is alot of explaining to do. with emotions and relationships i tend to be very private and not share much, even when the relationship was wonderful i didnt talk about it alot, so id have to start from the beginning, and at this point i dont know if i can do that over and over again.

[Heather]

Sharing a social circle is often sticky when it comes to this stuff, for sure.

So, would you like some help when it comes to figuring out who you can talk to, and also with setting boundaries when it comes to contact with him right now?

[veggiemonster]

I don't know how to ask about figuring out who to talk to, since it involves knowing people in my life, but if you have ideas id appreciate that. also if you have advice about setting boundaries that would be very helpful. he keeps doing alot of fun things with my friends and ive felt really left out, and thats not something i can handle right now.

[Heather]

How about sitting down with paper and pen and seeing about coming up with the names of people that a) you trust, and b) were your friends first OR are really only close with you?

I get feeling left out, for sure, and unfortunately, it's pretty common for someone who has done something wrong to someone else they want to avoid responsibility for to do things like try and get in the good graces of shared friends first.

There are a few different ways to come at this if this isn't something you're going to report or don't want known widely:
1) You can ask your friends for some time to hang out for yourself, and say you really need some time with them without him around. If you only want to present that as being about you two being split up for right now, that's okay (and that'll usually be something people have dealt with before and know is a thing). You get to go about any of this in the ways you need to to handle it at your own pace and in your own way.

2) You can let him know, clearly, you are asking for space apart, and do not want to be in contact when and if it can be avoided. I'm happy to help you come up with a way of doing that with him you feel comfortable with, if you like.

3) This can also be a good time to reconnect with old friends you may not have kept in touch with, or to try reaching out to expand your social circle so that it has more people in it that aren't "shared" between the two of you.

I also want to add that when we are asking people for support, we get to only share what we want to or feel up to. In other words, you don't owe anyone the whole story, or any part of it at all, because you're asking them for support. All we really owe someone who is giving us support is kindness, respect and gratitude, as well as the willingness to be supportive of them when they want that from us and we are able to give it, okay?

It's okay to ask for support and say that we're not yet feeling up to sharing all of the why or the details. After all, we can be supportive of someone even without any details at all, save them telling us how they'd like for us to support them.

[veggiemonster]

I think the space thing won't be an issue because when I was freaking out and texting him alot because i needed him, he was the one to ask for space. for him i think he just wanted me to stop texting cause he found it annoying and was thinking about himself and not that i needed him or was hurting. but i feel like that could translate into the space we are talking about (?). i dont feel like its fair for him to have this net of people to make him feel like he hasnt done anything wrong, i want him to sincerely know what he has done and know its wrong and be responsible. i dont have control but i want that. thats a good point about expanding my social circle/talking to old friends, ive been avoiding that because i havent had the energy, i still dont but should get off my butt anyway. i think i need to work on asking for help, i always have, but probably now more than ever.

[Heather]

I agree with you: it isn't fair. The thing is, unless that is something HE wants to change, it's not likely to change. And it doesn't sound at all like this is someone anything close to taking that kind of responsibility. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with you wanting that, because of course you do! But you probably won't be served well by anything that keeps you holding on to that want, or relying on it, because it's just not likely to be met by this person unless they -- on their own, and because they wanted to, for themselves -- radically changed. And that kind of change not only would require a pretty massive change in who this person seems to be so far, it would also take a lot of time, probably years, at the least, rather than days,m weeks or months.

So, you obviously want to figure out -- and this, too, will likely take you some time -- how to acknowledge you want that, and that isn't understandable you do, but that you are not likely to get it. After all, someone at all likely to give you that just isn't going to be the same person who behaves the way he has otherwise. In other words, the kind of person willing to take real responsibility for sexual coercion isn't the kind of person likely to engage in it in the first place.

Whether or not your shared friends are doing any kind of enabling with him -- knowingly or, more likely, without knowing they are -- around this isn't really something you can control, unless you feel up to and want to tell any of them what happened. You get to do that if you want, of course, but if you don't want to, or want to, but don't feel like you could handle what could happen with that, that's simply one of those things that's out of your hands.

One big thing I would suggest is that you see what you can do right now to focus on you, not him. In other words, focusing on him, what you want from him, how people are friends with him puts the focus on him, rather than on taking care of yourself and on you. Staying in that focus on him also kind of keeps you in something unhealthy. Seeing what you can do -- and again, this stuff takes time, so this isn't about a sweeping change you magically make right now -- to move your focus off of him and unto yourself is going to do a better job of showing you, and then giving you, what you need.

[veggiemonster]

That sounds like a good plan. Alot of this change happened rapidly in him, the whole breakup and everything came as a shock. He had a big breakdown before we broke up and he self harmed and carved my initials into his arm and broke down in front of me and it was scary. But all i wanted to do was be there for him and support him and soon following that he dumped me and didnt want to be friends. Right now he isn't who he has been, he is changing obviously. But it still all so fresh that wouldnt this be the best time for him to stop that change. I know i have no control but still, for whatever reason, i want to and worry about him still because this isnt who he is, he doesnt have to be this way. Is that really bad to hold on to? Even if i dont know who he is now is it bad to still love who he was? or is that gone and i cant help?

[veggiemonster]

it still sounds pretty desperate but even if he doesnt want to be friends, i was still his best friend for a long time, and im having a hard time just walking away from that. because i love the real him, or what was the real him (if change can cement that fast) and still worry and want to help, which i know im not allowed to

[veggiemonster]

basically i know i need to accept that it is what it is and i cant help him anymore, but i took out commitment as friends and as partners very seriously, ive never just walked away from a friend, even though he is doing that to me.

[Heather]

I just think that right now, you need to focus on taking care of you. And some of that is going to be about dealing with the sense of grief and loss you feel around this person, which is obviously complex, as you've got grief and loss here in a few different ways.

Too, we can still have what feelings we have with someone and yet change how we interact with them. Alas, as it seems like you know, we can't just make ourselves stop loving someone. That's pretty outside our control. But what we CAN control is how we interact with them, and what we put our time and energy into, and I think that you're going to do better for yourself by doing what you can to try and keep that focus on you for now, what you want and need in the present, and what is within your reach with those things. Know what I mean?

I think the truth is that this person isn't going to let you help them even if you want to, but even if they were, their behaviour makes clear it's not actually safe for you to be close to them in that way. And if it's not safe for you, you have to do what you can to steer clear. Not only does trying to so that for or with them put you in harm's way, their behaviour makes very clear that even if you didn't give a hoot about your safety, they aren't going to let you in in the way we let people in to let them help or support us.

This guy may be in a bad way, but you know, you are in a bad way right now, in large part because of the harm this person has done to you. We can't help people who will harm us. It's not safe, it's not sound, and them doing harm is as clear a message as it gets that they don't want or won't accept our help in the first place. You need help right now, and you have something big you are going through right now, so I'd lobby pretty hard for putting your focus on yourself and your needs, and taking it away from his as much as you can.

[Heather]

I hear you, btw, on walking away from friends being hard. But he's already walked away, and worse still, he's done you harm, making very clear he's not willing or able to be your friend anymore. I know that hurts like anything, both the loss and the harm, but we just can't be friends with someone who doesn't want, and isn't able or willing to really be part of, a real friendship with us.