The mysterious rules of dating

[Sunshine]

So... I was browsing around the internet and somehow it really struck me these last few days how many guys voice complaints along the lines of "we have to organize dates and pay for everything, but she gets to decide whether we have sex or not. This isn't fair and therefore feminism is bad." (Well, something along these lines). And I was like, what? WHAT?

The last time I heard about the kind of dating you see in (old) movies actually happening, I was talking to my grandparents. In whose days sex had to wait until after they were married.

I have never dated - I met my first boyfriend through a shared hobby and we were friends for a while, then slowly became lovers and are now life partners who share their finances, so the question of "who pays" when we go out doesn't really come up (he usually does hand our money to whoever we're paying, but that's because I have social anxiety and he's kind and wants me to have a relaxed evening). The people I know well enough to talk about their love lives don't report going on "traditional" dates either.

So my question is: Do "the man makes plans, reserves a table / seats / whatever, picks the woman up in his car, pays for everything, takes her home and then tries to have as much sex with her as she will let him" dates really happen? Like, for real? In this century? If so, why? And is the idea really that the guy is supposed to be "rewarded" or "compensated" with sex? If so, where's the difference between this arrangement and hiring a sex worker?

I'm sorry if I sound offensive or judgmental, but I really, really do not understand. Also, if this is happening and the man isn't happy with it, why on earth doesn't he just say so and change things?

[Mo]

I do think it's worth noting that articles of "stuff men hate!!" and similar topics generate pageviews, which is what websites want; I'm sure there are guys who think these things but I wonder if maybe the extreme end of "traditional dating views" aren't represented in a skewed way to essentially get the reaction you have (which I do not fault you for one bit!) because that drives traffic.

Some people drift into this sort of dating framework through inertia, I think; if it's what's modeled in the culture you consume or maybe by parents/adults around you then you might not take the time to really consider why that model is all you're seeing. And it probably does work for some people! I can't speak to why it does because it certainly doesn't work for me, and I think it's a model that mostly breaks down when you're dealing with anyone but a straight couple.

[Heather]

Also: sexism. It still plays a huge, huge part -- as does the heteronormativity that's part and parcel of it -- in many people's lives, relationships and the way they approach or think about both.

[Sunshine]

I think what creeps me out the most is when people talk / write about sex as if it were something women only "give" to men if they are payed, bribed or manipulated. God forbid we think about sex as something a woman would choose to do for fun and / or love. Also when guys say they feel "cheated" when they "invested in a date" and then sex didn't happen. So, like, our company in and by itself is worthless? Thanks a lot... Why even go through the whole dating ritual if the only goal is sex anyway? Why not just go up and ask: "want to have sex with me?" Or use a hook-up site / service / app?

Mo, you are probably right that this kind of attitude gets blown up and exaggerated on the internet to get attention and provoke people like me, but I've just been seeing it so freaking much lately. So much... in so many different places.

I actually like "going out" the old-fashioned way if the context is clearly not sexual. Whether I am having dinner with family in a nice restaurant or it's me who invites a friend out to see a movie, I like the idea of giving someone an evening as a gift, and I think it's equally pleasant to be the giver as it is to be the receiver. Just the idea that if it happens in a romantic setting, you have to "pay back" with sex - that's what upsets me, because it is just so wrong and insulting in so many ways.

[Mo]

I absolutely agree with how creepy it all is! I think a good thing is that there are plenty of folks who enjoy dating in a non-transactional way. Sometimes it might not be really evident if someone has gross views about "treating" a partner, but I think in general it's something you can suss out before things have gone very far.

The last time I started dating someone, we'd been set up by a friend and met up at a bar. I wanted to head off any sort of payment awkwardness so when we were about to order I said "hey how about I get this round, and you can get the next one?" Some of that was just to get the issue out in the open, but also to send feelers out about his feelings in general. I find that if I am on a date with someone who will NOT let me pay for anything myself I feel uncomfortable with that. I enjoy being treated, sure, but I want to date someone who will let me do the same.

Sadly sometimes it's not easy to tell if someone feels entitled to sex due to something they've done for you (whether you've asked for it or not) before they explicitly let that entitlement out in the open.