Scarleteen

Hello everyone!

So I'm in a relationship that has lasted almost two years. I'm very happy with the dude I'm with, but lately something become more and more of a problem. There have been an (alarmingly) increasing amount of times that I've almost felt more like a masturbation sleeve than a sexual partner, since my BF gets off and then we're done and go do something else. I'm going to have a serious talk to him about this, but I'm reaching out to you for ideas about what I can say and what I can suggest to him, because there's a huge problem wrapped up in all this.

The biggest problem is that my BF doesn't like vaginas. I'm 100 % sure that he's straight (or at the very least mainly attracted to women), but he still finds women's junk completely repulsive. He enjoys PIV sex just fine, but he doesn't want to look at it, taste it, smell it, touch it or in any other way even acknowledge that it's there, and even nods in agreement when gay characters on sitcoms talk about vaginas like they're monstrous aliens. I have no idea why he feels this way. Since I know this probably will be brought up: I don't think there is some trauma involved since he has never had any problems with intimacy of any other kind. For example, he didn't have any trouble with manual stimulation when I was new to PIV-sex and needed a lot of preparation. I've been having thoughts if he might be asexual and just hasn't realized it, but I don't know for sure and I don't know if I should ask. When I've brought up asexuality as a concept before, he's just sort of dismissed it (not as "it doesn't exist", more like "eh, people are weird, I guess"). Just putting that out there.

But back to the subject at hand. All this means that he never ever touches my feel-good place, and the times I've flat out asked him to do so he doesn't refuse, but he makes it very clear that he doesn't find any part of it any fun at all. So I stopped doing that a long time ago since I don't want to force him to do something he clearly doesn't want to do, just like I have never asked him for oral sex since he's been pretty clear from the start that it's not something he's ever going to do. He has agreed to sex toys, but the ones we've tried have either been a) woman focused, which left him unstimulated and bored (and he said he "didn't get the point", which kind of put me off the whole idea anyway), or b) couple vibrators, which just ended up feeling painful for me and weird for him. And, just for the record, I have never reached orgasm from penetration alone and it doesn't seem like I ever will. So what I need help with is this:

What could I possibly suggest that he could do to make the sex better for me?

I want to talk to him about this, but I want some suggestions that I can give him so he won't feel like I'm putting all the pressure to fix this solely on him. I don't want my sex life to be me trying to toss off an orgasm in less than five minutes next to my kind-of-bored BF for the rest of my life, which is what it is right now. What is there I can suggest to him that doesn't involve hand-to-vagina contact, mouth-to-vagina contact or sex toys? I just can't think of anything right now, probably because I'm wrapped up in all the feelings about this, so I'm reaching out to you for some ideas about what we could try together.
Is there anything else to try? Does anyone have any ideas? Is there any way I can salvage this, or am I doomed to grow more and more frustrated and resentful until I end up breaking this off over this? I really don't want to break up with the greatest dude I've ever met just because of this.

Welcome to the boards, Shorty. (As a short person, I just had to double-check myself because that felt like I was insulting you. )

This is perhaps going to sound like a stupid question, but since you didn't say this explicitly in here, I want to ask it so I can know how to best help you: in your sexual life, with anyone, do you WANT a sexual partner who WANTS to have quite a lot to do with your vagina? Do you want a sexual partnership where a partner wants to, and enjoys doing -- and feels comfortable with -- things like oral sex for you, as you've brought up?

Also, has your boyfriend ever felt differently, or has it been like this with him per him not liking, feeling comfortable with, or wanting to engage with your genitals in any way other than the intercourse that he enjoys that area of your body for (and from what I can tell, pretty exclusively, and maybe even in a way where he's kind of tuning out that that IS that body part and it is attached to a person)? Has he ever seemed to be sexual with you in ways that seem to be about both of you, not just himself? In other words, is this new, or has this always been like this, you just have only now, two years in, hit the wall with your patience for it and with not having a sexual life with this person you yourself enjoy?

Has your sexual life together ever been something you have really likes, felt was a good fit for you, and one where you have felt your partner has been as attentive and responsive to you and your body on the whole, and your enjoyment on the whole (or at all!), as his own?

Thank you, Heather, I'm glad I found this place.

Heather wrote:This is perhaps going to sound like a stupid question, but since you didn't say this explicitly in here, I want to ask it so I can know how to best help you: in your sexual life, with anyone, do you WANT a sexual partner who WANTS to have quite a lot to do with your vagina? Do you want a sexual partnership where a partner wants to, and enjoys doing -- and feels comfortable with -- things like oral sex for you, as you've brought up?

Haha, that might have been a good point to bring up. Honestly, yes, I do. I don't demand that they treat it like it's the finest thing they've ever laid eyes upon, but I do want someone who doesn't mind interacting with it. And I would love to have a partner who, again, at least doesn't have a problem with oral sex because I have always had a huge interest in that stuff. In a perfect world, that would be him, but I suppose he can't just make the feelings he has regarding female genitalia to go away.

Heather wrote:Also, has your boyfriend ever felt differently, or has it been like this with him per him not liking, feeling comfortable with, or wanting to engage with your genitals in any way other than the intercourse that he enjoys that area of your body for (and from what I can tell, pretty exclusively, and maybe even in a way where he's kind of tuning out that that IS that body part and it is attached to a person)? In other words, is this new, or has this always been like this, you just have only now, two years in, hit the wall with your patience for it and with not having a sexual life with this person you yourself enjoy?

This has always been the way it's been with him. I didn't realize just how much he disliked female genitalia in the beginning of our relationship, since he didn't seem to mind back then, but it's like it's become more of a problem for him now that he doesn't "have to" touch me there. And it's like I've just realized that I can't go on like this forever (or who knows how long, a year? 5? 10?).

Heather wrote:Has your sexual life together ever been something you have really likes, felt was a good fit for you, and one where you have felt your partner has been as attentive and responsive to your body on the whole, and your enjoyment on the whole, as his own?

Honestly? No, not really. I loved it in the beginning, when I had the thrill of exploration and trying something that was completely brand new for me (and as culturally important as sex). Now, on a really bad day, I can feel like my body and my needs are nothing but nuisances to his sex. He does realize my need to get off, and does occasionally apologize when he realized that nothing really happened on my end, so he's not completely blind to the problem but doesn't seem to suggest anything that doesn't involve his penis. That's why I'm trying to fix it, I'm trying to find something that I can truly enjoy that at the very least doesn't bother him. Because I can see myself in a very long relationship with this guy, everything is perfect except for *this*.

Okay.

So, I'm going to be frank, even though I know this is going to suck to hear. A two-year pattern like so much of this has been isn't at all likely to turn around. It sounds to me like this is simply how this person IS, and you two have also now established a longtime pattern of a sexual life that basically (intended or not, and I am SURE on your part it wasn't), probably helped cement that, and sent a clear message this was okay, basically.

It really sounds to me like maybe you and this guy are great in other ways together -- I don't know anything about the rest of your relationship -- but that a sexual relationship (or at the very least, an exclusive one that doesn't allow you to have sexual partners who want to be sexual with you and actually regard and include you in ways that aren't just about what gets them off themselves) isn't your right relationship. By all means, if you want to try and see if this is stuff he WANTS to turn around -- who knows whether or not he can, but if he doesn't want to, whether he can or not doesn't matter -- then I'd say everything you have said here and just as frankly and honestly as you have said it. I'd make very clear that your sexual life as it is and mostly has been the whole time is NOT going to work for you, because your wants and needs simply can't be at all met this way. You (like pretty much everybody) want a sexual partnership where your partner is into you and your body, is having sex with you to do something WITH you that's just as much about your enjoyment as theirs. You want a sexual partnership where a very important part of your body when it comes to your sexuality and what you want is not only okay with your partner, but something they want to be engaged with, not just for your enjoyment, but for their own. Again, none of this is something weird about you: this is all basic stuff people tend to want. If the roles were reversed, he'd be feeling the same way, no doubt.

So, where do you want to go from here? Do you want to, as it sounds like you do, try and first air all of this and see if he's willing and able to actually hear you, get the gravity of this, and see what he has to say? If so, do you feel able to just say what you said here?

If you don't want to have that talk -- especially if you have before and it doesn't seem to result in any changes, including his just getting that this is a giant issue -- how about a talk to figure out what kind of relationship IS the right one for you, so that you have the freedom to seek out sexual partnership with someone who...well, to be really blunt about it, both really seems to want to be a sexual partner and one who can meet the basic wants people tend to have with sexual partnership, most of which sound like they are and have long been missing for you here?

Btw, am I getting that this was a first sexual partner for you? If so, that can certainly make something like this harder to navigate, since you won't have had any other sexual experience to fill you in on what partners who do actually want to be partners, and what a sexual life that does really have you and your body as a whole, real and fully considered part of it -- and not just in an academic way, but in a super-lusty way that's exciting for everyone -- is often like. Like that not "minding" someone's genitals isn't even ground zero, honestly, and that instead, everyone having any kind of sexual contact with someone else actually needs to be enjoying themselves for those interactions to be healthy and happy for everyone.

So, if I have that right and you want to talk about what we should generally be looking for and expect in honest-to-Betsy sexual partners, feel free to ask away.

You know, on some level, I'm not at all surprised to see this answer. This has been fluttering in my head quite a lot, the fact that sexual compatability is a pretty big deal and as it stands right now, we're just not compatible in that area. It hurts to see it laid out, and it hurts that I'm basically just realizing that it's all true. And it hurts even more since we basically just agreed to move in together. This will be like a slap out of nowhere, and to be honest, I'm not sure how he's going to get back up.

I just hope we can find some kind of solution here. I am completely sure that he loves me, and he frequently expressed how glad he is to have me and that he can't wait to start our life together. I really don't want to hurt him as bad as this.

Heather wrote:If you don't want to have that talk -- especially if you have before and it doesn't seem to result in any changes, including his just getting that this is a giant issue -- how about a talk to figure out what kind of relationship IS the right one for you, so that you have the freedom to seek out sexual partnership with someone who...well, to be really blunt about it, both really seems to want to be a sexual partner and one who can meet the basic wants people tend to have with sexual partnership, most of which sound like they are and have long been missing for you here?

There is one thing I didn't bring up, since it didn't really seem relevant to the issue at hand, but he has said on several occasions that he would have no problems with me getting together with other women for sex. I've played with the thought before, but I dismissed it before since it didn't seem right that I would have license to do something that I wasn't ready to give to him in return (that is, I would not be comfortable with him sleeping with other women). Ironically, I wouldn't have problems with him getting together with other men for sex, but there's no point in bringing that up since he doesn't want that at all. I just brought that up now because I can't help but wonder if that wasn't a very stealthy way of offering a solution to this, since it would help my sexual needs, but that still wouldn't help our problems in the sack.

Heather wrote:Btw, am I getting that this was a first sexual partner for you? [...] So, if I have that right and you want to talk about what we should generally be looking for and expect in honest-to-Betsy sexual partners, feel free to ask away.

Yes, he is my first sexual partner. I really didn't have any clue at all what to expect from sexual partners, because no one in "real life" ever talked about what to expect (except "be in love", I guess?), so I had to build my expectations from the media. So basically, my expectations were "your lover will want you because you're Scarlett Johansen, duh", and I'm not Scarlett, so I had/have no idea what to reasonably expect from a sexual partner. I have an idea of what I expect of myself, but I have no idea what I can reasonably expect from my partner.

You know, I'm not even so sure sexual compatibility is the right frame for this, because no one is going to be able to be in a reciprocal, satisfying sexual relationship with someone who a) only seems to want a partner for their own wants and needs that are all about them, and/or b) not only isn't into, but is repulsed by, the body of a partner. In other words, I don't think it sounds like this person would be able to be a sexual partner with ANYONE right now: it sounds like the only person they might be able to be sexual with in a way where everyone is at all likely to feel regarded and satisfied is themselves.

Can you fill me in on why you think being honest about this and holding lines when it comes to not being sexual with someone who doesn't seem to want to be sexual with you in a real way is "hurting" them? You voicing all of this, after all, is just you voicing what has been happening for a long time: just stating reality. And so far as I can see, the person who's been being hurt here, for quite some time now, is you. Not regarding someone else as a person when we are having sex with them? THAT is hurtful. That is hurting someone (especially since someone with a modicum of emotional maturity and regard for the other person would be opting out of sex if they knew that about themselves, not just having it anyway because they can still get what they want).

For sure, if you two want to talk about opening up the relationship, I don't see any reason not to (though I'm still feeling sure you two being sexual together isn't going to be good news). People in open relationships don't always have the exact same "rules" for one another, and to be perfectly honest, I don't see many women lining up to have sex with someone like this anyway unless he was very different with them than he has been with you, which doesn't seem likely. In other words, if you're not cool with that, I'm betting he wouldn't have much opportunity to explore it in the first place if this is how he's going to be sexual with women. It also doesn't really sound like he wants to be, not women who have vulvas, anyway.

Do you want to talk more about some basics you should be able to expect from sexual partners, and some things to be on the lookout for to know, much earlier on, if not before being sexual at all, can show you someone either isn't likely to be a good fit for you, or isn't really able or willing to be a real partner for anyone?

Here are a couple links that might be helpful to at least give you some food for thought to start with:
• http://www.scarleteen.com/article/advic ... understand
• Yes, No, Maybe So: A Sexual Inventory Stocklist
• Reciprocity, Reloaded
• http://www.scarleteen.com/article/bodie ... _it_anyway

By the way, if you two have a kickass relationship otherwise -- like a great friendship -- moving in together may still be something wonderful. It's not like people have to be in a sexual relationship for cohabitating or making a home together to be a thing to do or something great.

But if what you want in living with someone is to live with a sexual partner, then yes, unfortunately -- and I'm sorry all of this is so hard and sad -- it sounds like this may be a decision to re-evaluate. It does happen sometimes that we agree to plan something and then change our minds. I'd also say that when there's a giant problem in a relationship, it's pretty common for people who want to try and hold onto it or save it to push for big steps like moving in together or having a baby. It's just that doing that is often not a good thing, as a) it usually won't fix the big problem or save something that's big-time broken, and b) it makes it even harder to radically change the nature or a relationship or move on from it.

FYI, I have a book to suggest to you that I need to recommend here to a lot of young women, and that's my friend Jaclyn Friedman's book/workbook "What You Really, Really Want." If you can find a copy, it does an excellent job of walking someone thought figuring that out when it comes to their sexual life, especially people (as is common for a lot of people socialized as women who pick male partners, whether those women are heterosexual or not) who just didn't learn how to even start with that and assure they are leading with their wants in their sexual lives, not with what they think they have to tolerate or what a partner wants for themselves.

Heather wrote:You know, I'm not even so sure sexual compatibility is the right frame for this, because no one is going to be able to be in a reciprocal, satisfying sexual relationship with someone who a) only seems to want a partner for their own wants and needs that are all about them, and/or b) not only isn't into, but is repulsed by, the body of a partner. In other words, I don't think it sounds like this person would be able to be a sexual partner with ANYONE right now: it sounds like the only person they might be able to be sexual with in a way where everyone is at all likely to feel regarded and satisfied is themselves.

Well, there has to be women out there who get off on penetration alone and hates oral sex as well, right? But, I see what you mean, if he was someone that I'd just met and wasn't in love with him, this would all be a dealbreaker for me.

Heather wrote:Can you fill me in on why you think being honest about this and holding lines when it comes to not being sexual with someone who doesn't seem to want to be sexual with you in a real way is "hurting" them?

Well, because I am telling a man that loves me deeply that I am so displeased with something he's doing that I am having serious doubts about my capability to stay in a relationship with him. Of course that's going to hurt. Especially if it turns out that he can't fix this, even if he really wants to. Logically, I know that staying displeased with this will just make everything worse down the line, but I feel that I am hurting him in that way.

Heather wrote:For sure, if you two want to talk about opening up the relationship, I don't see any reason not to (though I'm still feeling sure you two being sexual together isn't going to be good news). People in open relationships don't always have the exact same "rules" for one another, and to be perfectly honest, I don't see many women lining up to have sex with someone like this anyway unless he was very different with them than he has been with you, which doesn't seem likely. In other words, if you're not cool with that, I'm betting he wouldn't have much opportunity to explore it in the first place if this is how he's going to be sexual with women. It also doesn't really sound like he wants to be, not women who have vulvas, anyway.

No, I know for a fact that he wouldn't be different with other women than with me. Other women's vulvas hold no more interest for him than mine does, which at least is a small comfort. Then I know it's not just a case of me being a train wreck. I have no idea if he has been different with other women before (except the oral thing, that's always been a no as far as he's told me). I don't know, is this something I should bring up to him? That he will find it extremely hard to find anyone that will be pleased with this sex as long as he stays like this? Or is that just insensitive and hurtful, coming from me?

Heather wrote:Do you want to talk more bout some basics you should be able to expect from sexual partners, and some things to be on the lookout for to know, much earlier on, if not before being sexual at all, can show you someone either isn't likely to be a good fit for you, or isn't really able or willing to be a real partner for anyone?

I'd love to talk more about the basics, but would you clarify the last part of this questions (from "can you show someone"), I really don't understand what you mean there.

Heather wrote:FYI, I have a book to suggest to you that I need to recommend here to a lot of young women, and that's my friend Jaclyn Friedman's book/workbook "What You Really, Really Want."

Thank you, I'll try to get hold of this.

I actually think it's pretty safe to say that if someone has a vulva and wants it to be any part of their sexual life, unless they're getting off on a partner being repulsed by it, they're not going to have a happy or satisfying sexual life with someone who feels that way. So, sure, there might indeed be a person or two out there who doesn't want anything to do with their own body parts except intercourse like that, but a) that'd be very unusual, and b) even more unusual would be someone who feels like that AND also is happy as a clam with a partner who only seems to care about getting themselves off. You know?

I wouldn't talk about what all women will or won't like with him, no. Because really, in your relationship, it doesn't matter. even if every women EXCEPT you thought the way he was being sexually was the best thing ever, that wouldn't change that it's not okay for you, and what you two need to talk about is your relationship, and the two of you. And it also sounds like regard for you, period, in this department has been so minimal that I think talking about you is waaaaaay overdue. Know what I mean? Focus on you, and remember that this is about your own wants and needs: they are valid, and would be even if they were unusual.

Personally, I think in our most intimate relationships, it's NOT telling the truth -- and in this case, just voicing a reality you both know about already, but aren't talking about or really addressing -- that does real damage and that hurts people most, especially in the long-term. For sure, acknowledging, if this is how this goes, that you want a bonafide sexual partner and this person doesn't seem to want to be one in some ways, and, in other ways, just isn't able to be (if he is, in fact, simply repulsed by your genitals for the most part -- I say if, because I'm not sure if that's really what's going on, or if this isn't also about him just being very self-absorbed in sex with you or others), is a sucky conversation to have to have, especially this late in the game. And I'm sorry that you have to, but I do think that at least one of you is going to keep getting hurt here if you don't, if not both of you. I don't think avoiding these truths is what's least hurtful.

Per what I said that didn't come across clearly, let me have another go at it.

Let's say you were, right now, starting to look for a new sexual partner, and wanted to do all you could to assure that they'd be someone who could really be one, and someone with whom it was more likely, rather than less, you'd get a sexual partner, including things like having equal regard for you, your body, and your sexuality.

Can you tell me what you might be asking them about, and what behavioral or verbal cues you think would tell you about if they'd be likely to be someone good to pursue sexual interactions with, or someone where that probably wasn't the way to go?

(That isn't much clearer, I'm afraid. I'm exhausted from overwork and trying to meet deadlines, so I'm sorry if I've become totally incomprehensible!)

Thanks for the clarification, Heather, and sorry about your stress. I guess I've been piling onto that with all this. But for now I'll have to mull over these questions and return to this tomorrow. Good luck with your deadlines.

Thanks!

I also just wanted to come back and leave a few thoughts I had about you and your situation after I last posted, should they be helpful to you.

I DO think something you SHOULD bring up with him in these talks is asking him to put the shoe on the other foot. What would HE do if he had a sexual partner who showed up for a kind of sex they wanted, that was mostly about them, then ended sex when they got off, without regard for the other person's desire to keep going or do the same? How would HE feel about a sexual partner who was not only not into his body, but outright repulsed by parts of it? Would he stay in that sexual relationship? How might it make him feel about himself? What would HE say to you were the roles reversed?

I also think that if you're going to talk about opening up your relationship, you still need to make it a given that you hold a line about sex together, should you have it, not being as it has. That if he also wants to still be sexual with you, he has to a) WANT to engage with your body parts and with you as a whole person, and b) if he does, has to be sexual with you in ways that reflect that.

If he just can't, or he just doesn't want to, that's how it is: that isn't anything for him to feel ashamed of, or to try and fake if it's not there, but if either or both of those things is just how it/he is, then he can't keep having sex with someone when he won't or can't regard them as much of himself, and if he is not okay with their body parts, or worse still feels a strong aversion to them. That's just not healthy for the other person (in this case, you) OR him. It might even be worth asking why he thinks he's been and stayed sexual with you when those things have been the case. Why be sexual with someone when you don't feel a strong desire to be with them in sexual ways, and when you don't seem to want to, or are able to, see sex with someone else as doing things together that are about everyone feeling seen and regarded? The answers to that might be illuminating for you both.

I also wanted to share something a little personal with you. One of my very best friends, someone I regard as family and as a soul-brother is someone I was in a romantic and sexual relationship with for around three or four years. There was -- not like this, mind, but still -- both some romantic and some sexual incompatibility that kept coming up, and we both wanted a relationship that wasn't sexually exclusive at that point anyway, so we opened things up. (Again, this wasn't someone unable to be a real sexual partner to me, and we were still very into each other sexually and otherwise.) Within about six months, it became clear that really, we weren't just a good fit in those ways anymore, period, even though we so were before. We stayed living together for about another six months, and I have to say, the talks we had in that last year were the deepest, richest ones we ever had, and the most intimate we had ever been. For us, shifting to a platonic friendship was the best thing ever. had we stayed with how we were, I'm not sure we would have gotten so much more close and stayed so close, which we both would say now would have been a tragedy, since we love each other so dearly and both couldn't imagine our lives without the other in it in some way.

So, who knows what will happen with the two of you or what you decide. But I wanted to put that out there because a lot of people have this odd idea that the only way to be serious with someone, to have them have a big place in our lives, or to be intimate is if something is sexual and romantic. That just isn't so in so many ways, but that includes with people we HAVE been in those kinds of relationships or interactions with. Sometimes -- if not all the time -- really finding what the right relationship is for us, rather than being attached to a kind we want or feel we have to have to be close or important, is actually what really lets us love each other as fully as we can and really lets us be intimate.

And one more thing! (Don't mean to make a big pile, but your plight is in my head and my sympathies, so my mind is still on it.)

I want to make sure you also know that our wants -- whatever they are, seriously, WHATEVER they are -- can't hurt anyone. A want is, ultimately a thought or an idea: thoughts or ideas don't hurt people. People can have any kind of feeling you can have about wants (or thoughts, or ideas), and sometimes that feeling is a disappointment that our wants and theirs aren't the same or don't work together, but that's not our wants hurting anyone. That's life sometimes being painful at times when one person wants a thing, and the other wants something else, in a word.

What CAN and does hurt people with someone else's wants is how they go about trying to get them met (or what people actionably DO with wants, thoughts or ideas). So, for instance, the way your boyfriend has gone about trying to get his sexual wants met has hurt you: not the want, the actions he chose to try and get what he wanted. Or you, suppressing yourself from openly and honestly sharing and going for your sexual wants (and simply stating out loud what has been the reality where both of you can hear it), for whatever reason you have. Those things are actions, and the pain from them is really from the action, or our feelings about the want (or not-want), not the simple want itself.

Does that make sense? And can you see how the idea that just being honest about what is and has been going on with you two sexually and how bad it is and feels for you -- just telling the truth that what you want from sex isn't at all what this person wither wants to or can give -- is about hurting your partner isn't sound at all?

Okay, well, I brought this up to him today. It was frightening, and I knew the timing wasn't great since there's so much else going on in our lives right now, but I decided that there's no perfect time for these kinds of talks anyway and that I should bring it up while I'm calm and composed rather than in some highly emotional state.

He was completely understanding, grateful that I felt that I could bring this up with him and even said that I was brave for doing so. He understood that my needs weren't being met and promised me that he would try to change. We did also discuss what it would mean if these changes wouldn't be enough for me, and I told him that the fact that he listened to me and that he is willing to change and to try new things is enough for me right now, but if things don't get better in the long run, then we might be better off finding partners that are better suited to our needs. That did hurt and frighten him, I could tell that it did, but I hope that he feels secure that I'm not going anywhere as it stands right now. And just to clarify this in case someone wonders, I did tell him that he had to let me know if anything we do is wrong for him so we don't end up with a sex life that is better for me but horrible for him. I guess we'll just have to talk a lot more about sex than we have so far.

All that said, we're not entirely sure how to proceed. He put it pretty nicely: "I wouldn't have a problem at all to make the changes you need if you asked me to do the dishes more often, but I don't know how to get better at sex, I don't know where to start". And I understand his problem, especially since I'm not sure how or where to begin with this either. I told him that it had to be a journey we take together, and that we can take baby steps as long as we're progressing. Like I told him, just the fact that he understands my problem and wants to help me change it is half the battle won, as far as I'm concerned. But I might need some help regarding where to go from here. How do we learn to be better lovers for each other?

Heather wrote:I also wanted to share something a little personal with you. One of my very best friends, someone I regard as family and as a soul-brother is someone I was in a romantic and sexual relationship with for around three or four years. There was -- not like this, mind, but still -- both some romantic and some sexual incompatibility that kept coming up, and we both wanted a relationship that wasn't sexually exclusive at that point anyway, so we opened things up. (Again, this wasn't someone unable to be a real sexual partner to me, and we were still very into each other sexually and otherwise.) Within about six months, it became clear that really, we weren't just a good fit in those ways anymore, period, even though we so were before. We stayed living together for about another six months, and I have to say, the talks we had in that last year were the deepest, richest ones we ever had, and the most intimate we had ever been. For us, shifting to a platonic friendship was the best thing ever. had we stayed with how we were, I'm not sure we would have gotten so much more close and stayed so close, which we both would say now would have been a tragedy, since we love each other so dearly and both couldn't imagine our lives without the other in it in some way.

So, who knows what will happen with the two of you or what you decide. But I wanted to put that out there because a lot of people have this odd idea that the only way to be serious with someone, to have them have a big place in our lives, or to be intimate is if something is sexual and romantic. That just isn't so in so many ways, but that includes with people we HAVE been in those kinds of relationships or interactions with. Sometimes -- if not all the time -- really finding what the right relationship is for us, rather than being attached to a kind we want or feel we have to have to be close or important, is actually what really lets us love each other as fully as we can and really lets us be intimate.

Thank you for this story, Heather. I do know that relationships change and end, but the thought of ending my first relationship was frightening and hurtful. I don't know if this would happen for us or not, but it is a kind of comfort to know that he might still remain in my life as a friend, even if not as a partner. So thank you.

As for your question about how to find partners that want roughly the same things sexually that I do: I've been thinking about it, and I honestly have no idea at all. I don't know how to bring up my and their sexual needs at a good point in the relationship, and I certainly don't know how to navigate this question without making an awkward mess of it all. I'm beginning to realize that I may not know myself and my needs as well as I should.

I am so pleased to hear all of this, and I agree, it was brave. I don't have enough fistbumps to share for how excited and happy I feel about you advocating for and standing up for yourself and your sexuality like you did, especially with the emotional stakes feeling so high, and communication having been so stifled for so long with all this. (I picture a thousand cheering yellow Minions here, but you may not share that particular fandom. )

I absolutely have ideas about where you -- you, yourself, and you and he together -- can take it from here. I'm going to map out my thoughts on a plan, but you can obviously do what you will with it. You're also welcome to ask me to suggest more things if anything or everything here doesn't feel like a fit.

One of the first things I suggest is you both fill out one of these: Yes, No, Maybe So: A Sexual Inventory Stocklist. There's a printable PDF of the checklist itself at the bottom of the page to make doing and sharing it easy.

Then you can sit with each of yours together. This format can make talking about differences easier, especially since it is all so clear and detailed when you fill it out and, when there are places where people's wants intersect or are similar, it can make finding them super-easy. I think doing that together will be important self-work for both of you (in different ways, mind, but still) AND give you a real reality check and some starting points for talking.

I have some books in mind that might be helpful to you or both of you: My book -- though as I'm finishing the second edition, the one out now feels all dusty, even though it really isn't, and I know what's in it is still pretty amazing -- is a basic sex and sexual relationships guide, and it sounds like you could use one: It's "S.E.X.: The All-You-Need-To-Know Progressive Sexuality Guide to Get You Through High School and College." But if you want something else, or something skewed more to couples and sex, you might try (or also try) "Our Bodies, Ourselves" by the Boston Women's Health Collective (always an amazing resource, and I was a contributor to this last one so I know even more now how amazing), "Come As You Are," by Emily Nagoski (new, and killer if you're a science nerd), or Betty Dodson's "Sex For One" (which I think would be great for you, but also enlightening for your partner) and "Sex for Two."

It sounds like for him, something that has to happen here is for him to do some kind of work -- a therapist or counselor would be ideal, I think -- so he can figure out how he actually feels about having sex with partners, period, and then, if this repulsion to vulvas is for real (I don't mean to sound suspicious, I just am having a hard time wrapping my brain around him still wanting to put his penis in something that repulses him, and wondering if it's really repulsion, or that's more something he's either just saying or has kind of told himself about not having an interest in sex that's really also about another person), sorting through that. It just sounds like before you two can make many decisions or, if it's something that can be worked out, work out the issue of you wanting a partner who's into all of your body and into your pleasure as well as their own, he has his own unanswered questions that need answering, and then probably some help figuring out what the right choices are with all those feelings, and what he really can't do with someone else in a way that's going to be healthy for that other person, and maybe also even for him. Is that something you think he'd be open to?

I think if you can also find ourself a counselor to help you learn more about and be a better advocate for your own wants, and help you better feel like you not only get to have them, but they matter and shouldn't be suppressed or anything you feel bad about, that would be great for you. Is that something within your reach?

I'd also suggest for you that since you've expressed you feel like all or most of your education and exposure with sex and relationships was from pop culture and mainstream media that you spend some time just exploring the site here and reading articles. We've got thousands and thousands of pages here that can really give you the education and frameworks you have been lacking and have felt you need. And it's all right here and free!

Since it sounds like opening up or radically changing the nature of the relationship is also one thing, as possibilities, you also are starting to talk about, and may talk about more, would you like some book suggestions around that?

This is just a start, so again, I'm happy to talk more with you about it, and again, I hope that however challenging, you feel really good about the steps you've taken here. They're a very big deal, and hopefully without sounding patronizing, I'm feeling really proud of you. I hope you also feel proud of yourself.

Thank you! I'm glad that I did work up the courage to do this. He still feels that it was good that I did this, but now he's begun to feel pretty sad about the whole thing. He feels like it's strange that our relationship is based on whether or not I get off (yeah, I do think this is an unreasonable thing to say, but I guess he's still a little upset and needs to work out his feelings and expectations about all this), and I've explained that it's not the most important thing ever, but it's far too important for me to ignore. He's still willing to try changing this, though. I'm just feeling a little sad about this whole thing as well. I didn't want him to feel like this is all that matters to me, and I'm a little upset as well that he would think that I'd value sex over him, as he put it. But, well, we'll try.

Heather wrote:One of the first things I suggest is you both fill out one of these: Yes, No, Maybe So: A Sexual Inventory Stocklist. There's a printable PDF of the checklist itself at the bottom of the page to make doing and sharing it easy.

Thank you, I think this is where we'll begin. I've just sent this to him and he's looked it over. We'll see how this works out.

Heather wrote:It sounds like for him, something that has to happen here is for him to do some kind of work -- a therapist or counselor would be ideal, I think -- so he can figure out how he actually feels about having sex with partners, period, and then, if this repulsion to vulvas is for real (I don't mean to sound suspicious, I just am having a hard time wrapping my brain around him still wanting to put his penis in something that repulses him, and wondering if it's really repulsion, or that's more something he's either just saying or has kind of told himself about not having an interest in sex that's really also about another person), sorting through that. It just sounds like before you two can make many decisions or, if it's something that can be worked out, work out the issue of you wanting a partner who's into all of your body and into your pleasure as well as their own, he has his own unanswered questions that need answering, and then probably some help figuring out what the right choices are with all those feelings, and what he really can't do with someone else in a way that's going to be healthy for that other person, and maybe also even for him. Is that something you think he'd be open to?

I don't know, honestly. I know that he's not opposed to therapists in general, but I don't know if I should suggest this to him. And I did talk to him some more about his revulsion. It turns out that he seems to be completely hung up on the fact that people's sexual organs are also their urine expelling organs, which makes them dirty, and that they also lubricate, which is no different to him than snot or any other generally frowned upon body fluid. So that does make a little more sense, I suppose, but it doesn't exactly make me feel like he finds me (or anyone) sexy.

Heather wrote:I think if you can also find ourself a counselor to help you learn more about and be a better advocate for your own wants, and help you better feel like you not only get to have them, but they matter and shouldn't be suppressed or anything you feel bad about, that would be great for you. Is that something within your reach?

Yes, I'm already seeing a therapist. We've been working on some other issues (mainly my extremely negative view of myself), but one of those issues is the fact that I always consider my needs as worth less than others, and that behaviors that I would consider unreasonable for someone to do to someone else is not as unreasonable when done to me. Which I suppose ties into all this.

Heather wrote:I'd also suggest for you that since you've expressed you feel like all or most of your education and exposure with sex and relationships was from pop culture and mainstream media that you spend some time just exploring the site here and reading articles. We've got thousands and thousands of pages here that can really give you the education and frameworks you have been lacking and have felt you need. And it's all right here and free!

Thank you, I do like browsing this site. I'll have to do more digging to find the basics.

Heather wrote:Since it sounds like opening up or radically changing the nature of the relationship is also one thing, as possibilities, you also are starting to talk about, and may talk about more, would you like some book suggestions around that?

I don't know if that's the most suitable thing for us right now, but I would still like some book suggestions if you've got them at hand. I still think that poly communities and relationships have a lot to offer when it comes to how to communicate within relationships, so it couldn't hurt.

Heather wrote:This is just a start, so again, I'm happy to talk more with you about it, and again, I hope that however challenging, you feel really good about the steps you've taken here. They're a very big deal, and hopefully without sounding patronizing, I'm feeling really proud of you. I hope you also feel proud of yourself.

I feel a bit conflicted now. I am proud that I brought it up, and I'm proud of him that he responded so well, but now he just seems sad and conflicted about this. Like he feels like he's second place to the sex in our relationship. I don't know how to reassure him that I still love him for him, not for the sex, and still maintain my need to work this issue out together.

I have some thoughts.

Before anything else, props to you for taking so many steps to take care of yourself and your own growth and care in all this, between coming here, taking part on counseling and asserting yourself in this relationship. You're doing all the right things, even though they're all likely more hard than comforting or easy.

I hear you saying that despite making clear this is not about your whole relationship, but the sexual part of it, he's trying to make it seem like you're talking about the whole relationship. I can't know if he's doing that to intentionally try and manipulate you, or because he, himself, isn't getting or feeling that your whole relationship is more than your sexual relationship. But either way -- or if something else is driving that entirely -- what you can do is just hold a clear line with that when he goes there, like by saying, "I'm not talking about our whole relationship. I'm talking specifically about our sexual interactions and the sexual part of our relationship." You may have to say it every time he responds like this, but if you just hold that line, he can't really wiggle around it and obscure, intentionally or otherwise, what's actually going on here and what you're actually talking about.

Of course, you and I know what the deal is. After all, if how things have been for you sexually was about your WHOLE relationship, there's probably no way in hell you'd still be in this. That you are seems to be almost entirely because you don't experience the rest of the relationship like you do the sexual part, and he isn't (or at least, you haven't told me if he is) behaving the same ways in other parts of the relationship like he is with sex, like by only doing what he wants and what satisfies him.

Really, here you are, two years in, talking about moving in and being willing to even try and work on this and create positive change. If all of that, and the loving ways you interact with him in general, aren't reassuring him, there likely both isn't anything you can do to make that happen, nor anything your SHOULD do. If all of the love and care and commitment you show him aren't enough, that's about something that's an issue for or with him, for him to work on, not for you to try and fix. Make sense?

I also have to say, I find him suggesting that your whole relationship is based on whether you get off or not really dismissive, and it also sounds emotionally manipulative to me. In a word, it sounds to me like a guilt-trip meant to make you feel like crap and perhaps not hold this line. I'd suggest that if and when he says things like that, you take a strong stand to counter them. This is SO not about that. Yes, you want to feel satisfied -- which orgasm is part of, but so is simply having your body regarded as something other than gross, and having your sexual partner treat you like a person, not a sex toy -- in your sexual interactions, just like HE clearly wants to for himself, something you've tried to support for him to your great detriment for years, no less. But It is a big bunch of bullshit that your relationship hinges on you getting off or not, so you need to call that stuff out and let him know that you don't appreciate him pulling that kind of dismissiveness of the bigger issues or emotional manipulation.

I hear you saying he responded very well, but based on what you've posted, I'm personally not feeling that impressed. All I'm really seeing is that he didn't respond super-badly (though it seems he may be working up to that), which isn't "well" in my book.

(If you don't mind, btw, if you feel up to filling me in on the larger context of this relationship -- who is this guy, how did you meet, what IS great about the rest of your relationship and how much do you both really seem to enjoy each other, where DO you feel like you connect well, etc. -- I might be able to help better. I feel like I'm lacking a lot of context. If not, that's okay, too.)

In terms of what he says about the revulsion, does this also apply to his own body parts? And to all body fluids? If so, then what it sounds like he's potentially dealing with is a phobia, a form of OCD, or both. Those are things that only a qualified mental healthcare provider can help him with, not you, me or anyone who isn't that kind of person.

I do want to ping back to the place where he said he didn't know where to start with this, because I think the core of where he starts is by doing all he can to take responsibility for his own stuff and to start seeing your sexual wants and needs as just as important to you as his own are to him. By all means, it sounds like the dynamics over the last two years could send a different message, but that wasn't about you being okay with any of this, it was about you not knowing it shouldn't have been this bad and not knowing how to stand up for yourself and put a real value on your own wants and needs.

I wonder if you and your therapist -- and your partner -- might be open to a session with the three of you where your therapist helps you do that with him, but with a mediator? It might also be valuable for that person to objectively observe how he responds with any of this: that could help them help you better in all of this. And if he is being manipulative in any way with all of this, they're probably going to spot it, and that's good, because if that's in the mix, you need to know about that and inform your choices and actions with it.

(Just FYI, I have to be away from our direct services for the rest of the day, and will be away from my office tomorrow for outreach and my own therapy. So, I might not be able to pick up our conversation again until Friday.)

So it turns out that I had too much other stuff to get back to this before Friday as well. Heh. Well, short update: it turns out that I brought this up in a time when everything else in his surroundings decided to mess up at the same time. There’s a lot of issues in his family which has surfaced right now, on top of some close friends with medical issues and his own study-related issues, and most of his energy seems directed to worrying about that. So he’s talked to me about this, and after he promised that he wouldn’t forget this or sweep this under the rug, I agreed to let this matter rest until he doesn’t have to constantly worry about these other issues.

So, yes, a part of me worries that I just let him get away from this without doing a damn thing about it, but mostly I trust that he’s telling the truth about needing more peace of mind to process and work with this. And he did seem very aware of what I’ve talked to him about when we did have sex, and even tried doing something I've asked about before (even if it didn't work out right now), so at least he didn’t shove it all aside at once.

So yeah, that’s what’s going on with this situation right now. Not ideal, but I guess that’s just the way it is.

Heather wrote:Of course, you and I know what the deal is. After all, if how things have been for you sexually was about your WHOLE relationship, there's probably no way in hell you'd still be in this. That you are seems to be almost entirely because you don't experience the rest of the relationship like you do the sexual part, and he isn't (or at least, you haven't told me if he is) behaving the same ways in other parts of the relationship like he is with sex, like by only doing what he wants and what satisfies him.

Oh, no, the other parts of our relationship are great! We have a lot of fun with virtually all other aspects of our life, and he’s completely understanding when I have to (or want to) do things that he’s not keen on, like dull parts of my job or hanging out with my own friends without him. He doesn’t do stuff like this any other area.

Heather wrote:Really, here you are, two years in, talking about moving in and being willing to even try and work on this and create positive change. If all of that, and the loving ways you interact with him in general, aren't reassuring him, there likely both isn't anything you can do to make that happen, nor anything your SHOULD do. If all of the love and care and commitment you show him aren't enough, that's about something that's an issue for or with him, for him to work on, not for you to try and fix. Make sense?

Yes, absolutely. I agree that if this keeps up, then there’s probably something else going on that’s either way over my head in the fixing-department. But I’m sort of having a wait-and-see approach to this right now. I’m still hoping that it’s just a case of hurt feelings (or maybe pride?) or confusion rather than something else going on.

Heather wrote:I hear you saying he responded very well, but based on what you've posted, I'm personally not feeling that impressed. All I'm really seeing is that he didn't respond super-badly (though it seems he may be working up to that), which isn't "well" in my book.

Well, maybe. I’m not sure either about his actual response right now. Maybe his comments about our relationship being based on whether or not I get off was more of a response to everything that’s been going on lately. I honestly don’t know. But I have to say that the comment about whether or not I get off did make me feel pretty concerned about what he was actually trying to do. I certainly hope he wasn't intentionally trying to be manipulative.

Heather wrote:(If you don't mind, btw, if you feel up to filling me in on the larger context of this relationship -- who is this guy, how did you meet, what IS great about the rest of your relationship and how much do you both really seem to enjoy each other, where DO you feel like you connect well, etc. -- I might be able to help better. I feel like I'm lacking a lot of context. If not, that's okay, too.)

Absolutely, but not right here in the forums. Can I PM you about that instead?

Heather wrote:In terms of what he says about the revulsion, does this also apply to his own body parts? And to all body fluids? If so, then what it sounds like he's potentially dealing with is a phobia, a form of OCD, or both. Those are things that only a qualified mental healthcare provider can help him with, not you, me or anyone who isn't that kind of person.

Yes, but to a much lesser degree. He doesn’t have a problem with blood or drool or something like that, but he does consider his own sexual fluids to be dirty as well. He doesn’t seem to mind cleaning it up and such, probably because he’s used to it and can’t avoid it, but he has told me on several occasions not to touch it or do anything else with it but wipe it up. And me giving oral sex to him isn’t something he approves of either, but in that case it’s less “ew gross, no” and more “but it’s dirty, why would you want to do that?”.

Heather wrote:I wonder if you and your therapist -- and your partner -- might be open to a session with the three of you where your therapist helps you do that with him, but with a mediator? It might also be valuable for that person to objectively observe how he responds with any of this: that could help them help you better in all of this. And if he is being manipulative in any way with all of this, they're probably going to spot it, and that's good, because if that's in the mix, you need to know about that and inform your choices and actions with it.

I would be open to that, but I have no idea what he would say to it. But unfortunately, my therapist sessions will end very shortly, and after that I’ll have to find a new one. I might bring it up with the new one, but considering the time it’ll take to find one and get started with my sessions, this might not be relevant anymore. I have no idea.

Hi Shorty,

Heather will be away for most of the day so I just wanted to let you know that your message isn't being ignored. Once she gets back I'm sure she will have more to add.

I've been following the conversation and want to jump in with a suggestion (forgive me if it's already been made). I think taking a break from sex would be a good idea, especially if your partner feels like he isn't in the position to do the work that would be required for you all to (just start) getting on the same page. Of course having these conversations won't mean that you all will necessarily desire the same thing sexually, but because this has been an ongoing issue I think it is important to discuss before moving forward so it does not continue to get pushed aside or reinforce the pattern Heather described.

Removing sex from the equation is really a way for you to take care of yourself and your needs as you have already been doing (Because they are important!!!)

I can't say for sure, but I do worry that your boyfriend is avoiding this issue with you. As you already said, it can never feel like the right time to have a difficult conversation, but I would put this up there as pretty important (especially since you all are still having sex). This is not going to be one of those one time only talks, but an ongoing process. I understand not wanting to feel like you are pushing your partner, especially during difficult times, but you must be a factor as well if he feels, even with all of this things going on, that he is still in a good place for a relationship.

Hello Ashleah! Thank you for letting me know.

My boyfriend did suggest taking a break from sex, but then he initiated sex anyway, so I suppose he might have been joking or changed his mind. Sometimes I do find it really hard to work out if he's joking or not. I think that it might be a good idea to take a break, but I'm kind of backing off making any suggestions about this topic at all at this point, at least until things start cooling down a bit. It might be worth bringing this up a bit later, though.

"I understand not wanting to feel like you are pushing your partner, especially during difficult times, but you must be a factor as well if he feels, even with all of this things going on, that he is still in a good place for a relationship."

That is an excellent thing to keep in mind, for myself as well. Thank you.

Just coming in today. PMing isn't something we do with users (we have PMs turned off because there was no way to make them so that someone who wanted to harass users couldn't come in, register, and use PMs to do that). But I certainly could set up a time with you, if you'd like, to talk in our live chat service, which is private.

Btw, above, you say your partner initiated sex: does that mean that regardless of it being something you wanted, or that has yet to happen in a way that really regards you, that's different than it has been, you felt you had to have sex with him? In other words, I'm just checking to make sure you are aware that just because someone asks us to have sex, or starts touching us in a way that's sexual for them, we are by no means obligated to be sexual with them. And that doesn't change just because we're in some kind of ongoing relationship with them.

I agree with Ashleah, I think you two taking any kind of sex off the table for now while -- or until -- you start to really work on all this and even figure out how you're going to go about that is not only a good idea, I think the alternative, especially since the dynamics of all this still sound really off (like you not knowing when your partner is or isn't asking you to be sexual with him in the first place) to me.

Just FYI, what you describe about your partner with fluids does sound very much like a phobia or OCD to me. I'm not in the position to make that kind of diagnosis, both because I haven't talked to him and because I don't have that kind of education or licensing, but if he's at all open to seeing a therapist for an evaluation, I think he should. Even if this wasn't playing a huge part in your sexual life with him, it likely gets in the way of his life and a healthy self-image for him, all by himself.

Okay, sure, the chat service sounds like a good idea. But I might not be able to know when I can chat or not until next week.

No, I didn't feel forced to have sex with him. He just started touching me, and as it got more sexual he caught himself, paused and asked me if I really was okay with it and I gave him permission to go on. And we've had several talks in the past that stopping sex or saying no at any time and for any reason is okay, no questions asked. We've both turned down sex without any drama before. And this particular time, he did also try some things which we have rarely or never done before that I've really wanted, but for unrelated reasons it didn't work out this time despite him trying.

I don't think it's my boyfriend's fault, really. I guess I've just picked up some kind of idea that unless I've got a really good reason to turn sex down, or really really don't want to have sex right now, I might as well go on with it. As far as I can remember, he has never pressured me into anything. I guess I just assumed that communication regarding sex would just happen naturally in a relationship, and now I'm not sure how to start prodding this. But I guess the first step would be to ask what he wants when he does X or Y?

I do agree that seeing a therapist would help him, both with this and other completely unrelated things, but I'm not sure that I should bring it up. At least not right now. Maybe when things calm down a little. This whole situation that's going on right now is sort of throwing wrenches into everything else right now.

I'd actually suggest that perhaps you ask him if, for a little while, he could leave the initiating to YOU. If you can get some practice doing that, and get a break from the established patterns with him touching you (and only asking after he's started, not before), and you feeling obligated to go along with what he wants unless you have a "really good reason" (which, FYI, any reason is, but you make clear you intellectually know that but still react sometimes in a way counter to what you know), it will probably be a lot easier to start breaking old, not-good patterns and establishing better ones.

You know, really, assuming he's someone capable of taking care of himself, seeking out therapy should be something he does for himself, not something you have to bring up or push. If he's looked at all into how he feels about bodies and fluids, he will undoubtedly have found information about OCD and phobias, and recommendations to seek out mental health help. So, either he isn't good at taking care of his own stuff and looking into it, or he's done that, but isn't doing anything to try and help himself -- and you -- in this department.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't suggest it, and I hear you on the timing of things (when it rains...). But I'd hope that if he's at the point in life where he's talking about things like moving in with someone else as a partner, and being sexual with someone else, that he doesn't need another person to suggest he takes care of himself and gets things that are clearly big problems evaluated, you know? Out of curiosity, is he at least as old as you are? In other words, is this someone around your same age, or is he considerably younger? Is he generally independent, like financially supporting himself? I ask just to get a sense of where he's at with taking care of himself so I can have a better sense of if this kind of self-care is something he's just intentionally avoiding, or if it's just way above his skill-set when it comes to his life skills and experience at caring for himself.

Per chat times, no worries. I have just finally gotten my giant manuscript turned in last week, and am still barely starting my getting caught up with all the things here that have sat waiting, so you just let me know when it can work for you if it's something you want.