embarrassing question...

[MusicNerd]

oh jeez, I don't even know how to broach this in a non-embarrassing way, but here goes...

basically, even though masturbation physically feels good for me, mentally/emotionally it really hasn't been feeling great lately. like, I've recently stopped entirely because it makes me feel, I guess... pathetic? like, logically I know it doesn't make sense to feel that way, but lately that's how I've been feeling towards it and idk what I can do to feel less pathetic about it.

[Heather]

I don't see any reason to feel embarrassed about this, just FYI.

There are a LOT of pervasive, negative messages out and about when it comes to masturbation, including that it's "pathetic" to be sexual with and by ourselves, but laudable to be so with someone else. Of course, both of those essentialist messages are bunk.

What do you think is fueling these feelings for you? And since it sounds like there's a disconnect between what you know intellectually and what you're feeling, any sense of what you might need to get those feelings in more alignment?

[MusicNerd]

yeah true, there are definitely a lot of those negative messages out there, which intellectually makes total sense but tell that to my feelings. lol

hmm, well.... I guess these feelings in part come from those messages, but it's also partly due to the fact that like being sexual with someone else doesn't seem like something that's in the cards for me (which is due to a bunch of different reasons), especially as someone who passes as straight even in queer spaces (and also isn't really interested in cis straight men due to extenuating things).

but yeah, idk how to make my intellectual side line up with my emotional side. sorry, I know that that's not a helpful answer, but it's all I've got for now. lol

[Heather]

So, do I have it right that you're feeling, in part, like this is "pathetic" because it feels like the ONLY way you can be sexual, and that's not what you want?

If so, how about we talk to you about those feelings of hopelessness? The idea that you don't want a relationship with cis, hetero dudes but feel you can't have one with anyone else because you appear straight to people, for instance, strikes me as really flawed. After all, even if it were true that no one could know you aren't by looking (and of course, no one can know that about anyone just by looking, so that's flawed in a huge way from the front), that would only be relevant if you had no choice but to be a passive agent when it came to all of this, and that's not the case. If you ask someone out, after all, then they will know clearly you're interested in them.

[MusicNerd]

to answer your question at the top: yeah, that sounds about right.

I mean you're totally right that it's flawed that there's this idea of only one specific way to "look queer" (and it's a rant I go on pretty regularly considering how white-washed that image is anyway), but idk. I'm way too shy and socially awkward to be more of an active agent in these situations, IMO.

[Heather]

But those things don't have to be a barrier, and you'd need to work on them even if someone else DID initiate things with you so that you aren't a passive agent in your relationships or interactions.

When people say they're socially awkward, it's hard to know what they mean, especially since that usually is a response to the idea that there's a "right" way to be socially, or the idea that everyone else is comfortable in any given social situation. (Not true, in both respects. Plus, plenty of us feel socially awkward -- I'm among that number quite often -- but that hasn't been a barrier to pursuing sexual or romantic relationships, because we've just figured out how to work with it, which usually just involves accepting we feel that way and doing things anyway.) And shyness is also something people can learn to work with and manage, not some kind of impassable barrier. If and when it feels like a barrier, as it clearly does for you, that's a loud cue that it's getting in the way of what you want in life, so it's time to learn how to work with it.

Have you ever sought out any kind of help with that, whether we're talking about counseling, social skills workshops, or reading self-help books for shy people?

[Heather]

Btw, shyness often has a lot to do with introversion. Have you read "Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking," by Susan Cain yet? If not, it's freaking awesome, and -- I think -- is something that can be really empowering for introverts, especially if and when we're feeling like the only way to be is extroverted, and if we aren't, we're just screwed. (We're not.)

I also really liked this one, "The Introvert Advantage: How Quiet People Can Thrive in an Extrovert World," by Marti Olsen Laney Psy.D, and have passed it along to a few friends who also found it helpful.

[MusicNerd]

I've definitely tried counseling, and I'm currently trying to find a new counselor since I haven't been to therapy in a long time (and it's been really hard finding a counselor I'm compatible with), and it helped me become more confident in being more active in pursuing friendships, but I clearly still have a ways to go when it comes to pursuing romantic/sexual relationships.

oh, I've heard of the first book, but I've never read either of them so I have to check them out-- thanks! but yeah, I haven't been able to find a social skills workshop in my area or anything like that. also, I've definitely felt that feeling before of like "I'm not an extrovert so I'm screwed".

I mean, I feel like my shyness also kicks in a lot in these spaces because I feel like a lot of queer events/spaces are pretty hypersexualized and comes with the assumption that everyone (especially by my age, 21) knows what they're doing and has had at least one partner before.... which I very much don't, so I just assume they'd judge me for it tbh

[Heather]

You know, last night I was thinking about you with all of this, and remembering that incredible piece you wrote for your college paper: it was so bold, you knew from the front you were putting something out there probably a lot of people wouldn't get, accept or see your way, but you did it anyway.

It seems to me that when you're thinking about all of this, figuring out how to make ways for you to be yourself, go after what you want, and be bold like that might be the ticket. Maybe that means another piece for the paper about, say, queer invisibility when you're not white, or how tricky it can feel to get into queer communities when they can feel so sexualized. Or maybe it's just about trying to bring that writing-self to more of your in-person self.

I do want to mention a few things, for you, though. More queer people than not, around your age, won't have had sexual partners in queer relationships, both due to common lack of opportunity where they lived before college, because so many people still aren't even out yet, or because so many people are just as new to this as you are, and feeling just as scared to take steps and start to pursue relationships. So, I absolutely promise, it's not just you. (And even straight people, in your generation, are starting sexual relationships much later than in previous generations.) I'd also encourage you to try and let go of the assumptions -- like that you'll be judged, or that, if you were, that's not something you could deal with and shrug off, because you probably wouldn't want to be with anyone like that, anyway -- that I think are keeping you from things you want and not serving you well.

[MusicNerd]

thanks Heather, that's so nice of you to say, especially considering how bold you are I really liked what you said about bringing my writer-self more to my personal-self, but i'm not sure if I can do that, honestly. 'cause when it comes to my writing and my activism, i feel like i'm doing those things for causes that are bigger than just myself and where people's lives, not just mine, are on the line (especially when it comes to supporting other marginalized groups that i try to be an ally to), you know?

so like, yes i am personally affected by racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. but so are so many other people who feel like they can't speak up, especially if they don't have the privilege of going to an institution like mine and they feel like they have even less ground to speak as a result (which is false and messed up on so many levels), and that's part of what compels me to be bold and speak out and make my thoughts public. but when it comes to dating/sex, i feel like those things aren't really for any cause greater than myself, you know? sorry idk if i'm making any sense... i think my fears are doing the talking right now, 'cause it's just scary to be so vulnerable and it hasn't felt very worth it to be that way whenever i've tried it (at least in this part of my life).

mm, i see what you're saying about why other queer people could be in my position when it comes to lack of experience. idk, i feel like i've been out for "too long" to have had so little experience-- like maybe if i just came out a few months ago (as opposed to a few years ago), i'd understand more why i'm behind most of the queer people i know ('cause for whatever reason, i know a lot of experienced queer folks and very few inexperienced ones).

tl;dr - i wish i could be bolder and more sure of myself in this part of my life like i am in other parts, but idk if i can be tbh

[Heather]

Maybe consider -- whatever choices you make with any of this -- that, IMO, everyone benefits from any of us being real about our struggles and honest about things that have been problematic for us?

In other words, I think that for sure, any activism you want to do around this benefits you, but not just you. Same goes for going for what you want in a way that works for you.

You know, I have known people in my life who weren't able, for any number of reasons, to have same-sex or gender partners for a decade, sometimes even more, after they came out for themselves or even more publicly. Realizing we're queer, coming out or both don't somehow dictate some sort of timeline that's the same for everyone, or where there are "too soons" or "too lates" for pursuing or having queer partnerships in some kind of general way. Honestly, it sounds to me like despite being afraid of other people's potential judgement, you're dealing with someone with a lot of it already: you.

Perhaps some first steps with any of this can just be to try and recognize and start to work on that? Really, no matter what you do with partnership, you're going to benefit from learning to quiet your inner judge and learn not to let that internal voice, which rarely has anything good to say, get in your way.

[MusicNerd]

oh trust me, i've been trying for a very long time to quiet that inner judge, but they're a persistent pain in my butt. and (if you can believe it) even though it's gotten a lot less judge-y about a lot of things, it's continuing to be pretty obnoxious about this part of my life, so... idk, maybe one day it'll just randomly decide to go away, but who knows at this point.

[MusicNerd]

well, anywho, thanks for taking the time to answer my rambling questions and whatnot, Heather. I really appreciate it!

[Heather]

Of course. I'm always glad to see you here, even when the reason you're posting isn't about feeling so great. Here's hoping for more of the good stuff moving forward!

(You know, if it would ever help, btw, for me to talk with you about having been someone in queer spaces with a lot of sexual confidence and experience, often far more of both than my peers when I was younger -- being the kind of person it sounds like you've been thinking would judge someone in your position -- just let me know. In other words, I could certainly say more about that than just "People probably aren't judging you," if you wanted and thought it would be helpful for you.)

[MusicNerd]

hey Heather! thanks, i hope for more of the good stuff, too

yeah, sure, if you wanna give any input from that perspective i think that'd be pretty helpful, too. thanks, i appreciate you taking the time to do that!

[Heather]

Sure thing. This will be a bit of a loose ramble, since I'm not sure what you will or won't find helpful.

I have generally been pretty mindful about big differences in where I and any actual or potetnial partners have been at during my life, though I certainly got more mindful about it by the time I got into college. In high school, I don't think it was something I really took into account at all, I just figured that if someone else wanted to be with me sexually or romantically, even if and when we had experiential divides, it was all good. I only learned later that sometimes it needs to be taken into account when some part of it matters to anyone involved, or to make sure someone wasn't getting in way over their head (but based more on their own sense of self and needs, not based on my own ideas about that).

And really -- though obviously I only have my side of the story to tell with this stuff -- aside of GIANT chasms (like a partner I had in my thirties after I had had more partners than most people do in a whole lifetime who was around my same age and only after we got involved, let me in on the fact that they had kissed one other person, and that was it, and never had any kind of romantic or sexual relationship), I have never really had any of this be an issue, mor have I had partners who seemed to feel it was. For sure, there have been some talks over the years about some people feeling a little intimidated from the front with both my confidence and experience, but that was their stuff, I wasn't bothered, and it usually sorted itself out in time or by just talking it through.

Honestly, I think I have had bigger issues with people who have been at a similar -- or at least not ginormously dissimilar -- level of experience presuming they knew all of what to do without talking then people with less who asked a lot of questions. Questions with anything sexual always = good, and sure beats the alternative!

Too, I have known a lot of queer people in my life, including people who were much older than me, so while I was out way early (I didn't know you could be in, so that was less of a choice and more not knowing I had one, but it was fine for me to be out for the most part, so whatevs), I knew enough of people's stories to know there wasn'ty a too soon or too late, just a range of different circumstances and experiences and a range of what felt safe and right for different people.

By the time I was halfway through high school, queer spaces and communities were more of a default for me (I went to an arts high school inner city) so it's hard for me to think about how I approached those spaces because I was never approaching them as something alternative or really segregated, if that makes sense. In other words, for me, through so much of my life, queer spaces have just been...well, life. Like, I wake up in the morning, I go on about my life, and that's the space a lot of it has been part of. I'm sure that's part of what made most of those "spaces" pretty unintimidating for me because I didn't see them as something unusual or different, somehow separate from everywhere else. Maybe that's something you could try as a concept?

I also want to add that I can't think of a time I have ever thought about someone's sexual experience, or a lack thereof, as something that qualified or disqualified themselves as someone for me to date or be sexual with, unless it just seemed like that played a part in us just not being a smart or safe fit for each other. Same goes for thinking that someone's experience with sex or dating told me, all by itself, anything at all about them. I can't really even think of times I even asked someone about their history in that kind of way or felt like I had to know: sexual histories have often come up in discussions in my own sexual or romantic life, but more the way you discuss any of your life history, be it about your family, where you grew up, or what your goals and dreams were.

I'll leave this for now, and figure if there's anything in there you want to pull apart or talk about more, you'll find a bounce off of pieces of it. I do apologize for being a bit more rambly than usual: I woke up earlier than planned and was thrust immediately into a tech emergency here, and before I even had any coffee, no less, which my brains requires to function.

[MusicNerd]

no, that wasn't too rambly, don't worry about it! thanks

so like, as far as making queer spaces not feel "alternative" like.... i'm not gonna lie, i know i seem to always talk about this, but race tends to play a part in how comfortable i'm gonna feel in queer spaces. so, if i'm in a space that's advertised to QPOCs (or black queer people) specifically, then i tend to feel less out-of-place (not 0%, but less, because #MixedKidProblems) and there seems to be more comfort for me there (on my end and from other people-- like, i'm more likely to be approached by a person of color than a white person, for instance). whereas in spaces that are advertised as just "queer," that tends to usually translate to being predominantly white and male, at least where i live ('cause "white/white male = default"). and then when desirability politics (which is a whole other ramble i could go on-- sheesh!) and gaps in awareness/information come into play with all that? it makes things really awkward and feel not-so-great, so for my own self-esteem i tend not to wanna go. (i'd rather lower the odds of having someone grab my hair and ask me what race i am, for instance *cue the record scratch* ...which has actually happened, and that can really put a damper on things, honestly). so, while almost all of my friends are queer (many, but not all, of whom are QPOCs), when it comes to "queer" spaces, that's when things get a lil' tricky for me to navigate. tbh

but yeah, it's good to know that inexperience =/= automatic value-judgment/qualification-thing for all experienced folks, 'cause that's definitely an assumption i feel like contributes to my discomfort in some queer spaces, but i also feel like you're just a lot more open-minded in general about a lot of different things than most folks. lol (and like, i get i wouldn't wanna be with someone who's not open-minded about my inexperience, but like.... i also feel like it limits my odds of finding those connections by roughly a crap-ton tbh) but yeah, that makes sense about what you were saying with the whole asking-questions thing.

also, i know this is gonna sound like a ridiculous question, but: how did you get sexual confidence? do you think having the amount of experience you do contributes (now and in the past) to your confidence? sorry if those are weird questions, but it just seems like confidence and experience (from where i sit) are kind of a catch-22 situation for me -- as in, i lack confidence because i lack experience and place a judgment on myself, but i also lack experience because i place a judgment on myself which leads to lacking confidence which leads to me rarely being overt about showing interest in people (i've only done that a few times, and it hasn't usually been the best thing since i used to go for super emotionally-unavailable types as a super-unavailable person myself at the time)... and the cycle goes on and on in the most obnoxious way.

[Heather]

I'll work back to front here.

You know, I'm not sure I know the answer to that for sure, but I have a few ideas. For one, during my pre-teens and early teens, I lived in an abusive situation where there's almost nothing I wasn't put down for or made to feel like no matter how good I got at anything, it not only wasn't good enough, it wasn't good enough for me to "earn" not being abused. And I'm a fighter: I have been for as long as anyone who knows me in my life can remember, and so pushing back hard against anything like that is just, I can only assume, part of my nature. I also had a lot of practice learning to survive, which I think involved not putting any extra pressures on myself, since I would have crumbled under the weight of everything else if I did.

But too, I was very much on the early end of things when it came to sex and dating amoung my peers, and with where people are starting now, which is later than it was for my generation, I suppose it would seem SUPER early. I think one benefit of that for me was that I didn't really know NOT to be confident, or not to just go with my instincts with so much of this, including just taking risks and falling on my face a whole lot. The nice thing, IME, about falling on your face or putting yourself out there and getting shot down is that you get (well, not everyone, but I think I did, anyway) more resilient and less scared. It's easier, I think, to be scared of things when you haven't experienced that things can go in ways you don't want, and you can not get what you want, and be just fine, even if it stings or sucks.

I know for me, too, because I was assaulted early in my life, I think I had a strong urge to reclaim my own sexuality and really have it for my own, so not going for what I wanted just never felt in alignment with that, and going for what I wanted really supported my healing and sense of self in that regard. Mind, it's probably sound to mention that I am a very kineshetic person in a lot of ways, and also someone super-sensory, so sexuality and sensuality are one area of my life that I think have come easier to me than others, because they feel like home, if that makes sense. Same goes for the fact that I didn't come of age in the Bush or post-Bush anti-sex culture and all it touched (and still does). I came of age in the 80s, in a capsule between the anti-sex 50s and early 60s, and then when this whole nonsense cropped up again in the late 90s. I think almost anyone who came into their teens in the last 15-20 years has a lot more messaging that has gotten under one's skin that is very much not supportive of sexual confidence or ownership.

Next up!

If most of your friends are queer, and queer POC, no less, I'm wondering why you're not seeing your own social circle as a queer space? In other words, it sounds like you're kind of externalizing queer space and community where, in my mind, our community IS queer space, probably the biggest and best of it, no less.

I hear you about the great whiteness of it all (:P) and I don't think it's a side issue to mention it, especially when you're feeling it so acutely. I'm not of color, but growing up in a very diverse city and neighborhood, my queer circles being a mix was usually a given. Only once I moved to Minneapolis in my 30s and got into that queer community did I experience one that was much more white, and even as someone NOT of color, I found it weird and unfamiliar, and certainly problematic.

But it also sounds like maybe some of this ish may be more about things like events organized as Queer Events, or spaces advertsising as Queer Space? If so, perhaps part of the solution is looking more to your own community that is and can be, in and of itself, both those things, and sounds like it's a better, homier fit for you.

[MusicNerd]

starting with the first half of your post: yeah, that all makes sense actually, and I could see how you got to reclaiming your sexuality via those points you brought up. and I also think it's really brave of you to have gone after what you wanted despite all those things you mentioned, so I just wanted to say I think that's really awesome. also, please let me know at any point if you feel like my questions are too much or whatever, 'cause I know that was a lot of personal info and I really appreciate you being open about all that you shared, but I also don't want to make you feel uncomfortable or like my questions are too personal-- so just let me know!

yeah, I guess I'm still trying to process my (what I now recognize as) toxic and emotionally abusive childhood (inside/outside home), so I'll have to try and figure out how to build sexual confidence despite not really having any proof to back up the confidence as well as the messaging I received growing up that told me to feel otherwise. do you have any reading recommendations that deal with sexual confidence or anything along the lines of what we've been talking about?

on to the second part: yeah, I guess when I was referring to "queer spaces" earlier I meant spaces where I have opportunities to meet queer people I don't already know (which tend to be the Queer Events you mentioned and whatnot). but no, for sure, my friends definitely do feel like community, but they're also very different from me in terms of experience as well, so I rarely ever talk to any of them about this (only like 1 or 2 of my close friends know and that's it).

[Heather]

No worries about stepping on my toes: I'm fine with you asking whatever you like, because I''m good at saying no if I need to, or just saying something is private for me.

Have you seen the piece on the main site about building sexual confidence? If not, go use the search function on the main site and you'll find it. It's a goodie!

[Heather]

Here's the piece I was talking about, btw (was posting from my phone last time, so couldn't link you up!): http://www.scarleteen.com/article/gende ... fectionism

[MusicNerd]

ah yes, I just read it earlier today-- it definitely has some good info in it, so thanks for pointing me that way!

[MusicNerd]

Random Update: so yeah, i don't know what's been going on with the universe lately, but: did you recently happen to write a letter of recommendation about me to some queer folks in my city or something? lol if so, thanks so much! haha

basically, since we last talked my dating life has gotten a lot more active to the point that i'm having to space out my dates (which is still pretty weird for me 'cause i'm very much not used to this kind of attention, honestly). i went on my first date in like 8-9 months last week and i'm gonna be seeing a few folks (including that last person again who seems pretty cool! ) later this week.

i don't know why things have randomly turned around so quickly, but i just wanted to thank you for being patient and non-judgmental about talking me through my negative feelings around all this. it really helped and i feel a bit more comfortable (still just as anxious and socially awkward as ever-- but hey, still better!) about this stuff.

[Heather]

I didn't, but you know I would've if I could've!

That's such wonderful news, and it's so rad to hear you sounding so optimistic! I am always happy to talk with you and lend what support I can. Glad it helped!

[MusicNerd]

Another Update: i didn't know where to put this and i didn't wanna start a new thread, so here goes...

as i've been going on more dates with people lately, i've been starting to have a clearer picture of what i want out of dating-- which is definitely a good thing! but my problem now is that i'm worried that that's not what most people want.

basically, i'm happy going out on dates with different people and learning more about what i want and don't want, but now i've realized that (when it comes to non-kink-related things) eventually i'd like to find an exclusive romantic/sexual relationship (not like insta-commitment after the first date, but like getting to know each other over time and all that), and i've also figured out that i'm not really comfortable with the idea of having sex with someone outside of that context. i realized this after differing with someone on what we both wanted-- and while that was a bummer since i really was starting to like her and click with her on so many levels, i'm glad i didn't pull a Joseph-Gordon-Levitt's-character-from-500-Days-of-Summer and pretend to want something that i didn't really want. and while it was scary for me to be open and honest about what i'm looking for (especially since our radical politics lined up so well, too! *sigh*), i know that it was ultimately for the better for the both of us in the long-run.

now, my problem is i'm fairly certain this limits my odds greatly of being able to find someone who wants what i want (most queer folks i know seem to want casual sex, or sex before a relationship, which is totally fine, but not what i want at this point in my life) and i'm afraid i'll just scare anyone away with the fact that i'd like some sort of exclusivity or commitment to come before sexual things. and i wish i didn't want that, honestly-- i feel like it goes against what most people my age want (especially among most queer women i know who seem to do the opposite: sex first --> insta-U-Haul. lol), and i feel like what i want just makes things so much more difficult for me (and it also makes me view myself as being too uptight) even though it feels like something i'm the most comfortable with.

tl;dr - i don't have a problem communicating what i want out of dating when the conversation comes up (or initiating that conversation when i have to be the one to bring it up), but i feel like what i want is basically impossible to find, and idk how to not let this feeling keep me from being optimistic about my chances of finding someone who's okay with this and is also someone i'm compatible with in terms of chemistry, emotionally, intellectually, etc. because even if what i want is impossible, i'd rather still feel good and not totally-hopeless about my desires anyway.