Scarleteen

Hi everyone. I am at a loss about how to proceed regarding my mum, and I would like to vent/get some feedback maybe, until I can go back to therapy in a couple of weeks. I have always received such helpful feedback here at Scarleteen, and it feels like a 'safe space' to me, even if I don't post often, which is why I thought of coming here. Sorry for the really long post ahead, and thanks to anyone who reads.

In a nutshell the situation stems from this: I grew up with a mentally abusive father, I would say narcissistic as well. My mum, who was isolated and unhappy, used me as her friend/confidant to complain about my father nonstop since I was very little. This led to me never feeling like I had a 'safe space' with my family, or a 'home' even. I was never able to develop normal, healthy bonds with either of my parents, which resulted among many things in me being extremely independent and detached from them. My relationship with my father is purely informative, as the bond with him is 99% nonexistent. He seems to respect this, even though he doesn't like it, and doesn't push for more closeness, probably wouldn't even know how to do that anyway. He has stopped abusing me mentally as well, since I won't let him anymore. So my relationship with him is extremely distant but sort of stable, and I have no need for more or for 'fixing' anything.

Things are different with my mum. I used to be closer to her than my father, since while I was growing up my dad was always "the bad guy" (I saw this through his abuse and through my mum's confidences and criticism), while she was just 'a victim'. I initially sympathized with her, and was unaware of the lack of boundaries she was pushing on me and their consequences. However as I grew up and became more detached she started a push-pull dynamic with me, where she would cry her eyes out to me and ask me for advice, then call me selfish and constantly say "you're just like him" when I didn't want to spend time with her (which was a direct consequence of how uncomfortable I felt with the whole situation, even though it wasn't totally conscious). So my relationship with her has a history of being unstable, where I would try to unconsciously establish a boundary, and she would want me to be loving and close to her, then would retaliate when I wouldn't.

Time went by, and a few years ago my mum reunited with an old boyfriend. At the time she had already tried divorcing my father twice, but he had blackmailed her both times into not doing it. She was miserable, possibly clinically depressed (no one in my family ever got any therapy or thought they needed any) and had been for as long as I can remember. So she started cheating on my father with this old boyfriend, my father eventually found out, and they got divorced. However, during the time she was cheating on my father she decided to tell both my sister and I, expecting us to just know and not say anything. She would tell us which day she was meeting him, tell us how the day went, show us his gifts, leave said gifts around the house and so on. She was beaming, and by wanting to share this she behaved like a 14 year old in love for the first time keeping the secret from her parents - not like an adult. Seeing this and the situation she put me and my sister in made me grow even more distant, and even though I tried to explain this to her, she would not understand.

Fast forward to now, my parents have been divorced for 5 years and my mum has been living with this person since then. However, since she fears my dad will reduce her alimony or take it away from her altogether out of jealousy if he finds out she is still dating this person (I think part of the alimony details were just an informal agreement between them, I don't know any legal specifics but apparently it wouldn't be hard for him to do this), she has been pretending for 5 years that she is living somewhere else, with my aunt, instead of with her partner. And she decided from day one that my sister and I would be in the secret, so every time me or my sister visit her (we live 6 hours away, by car), we have to pretend we are somewhere else. My father is an obsessive person, so this means we have to double check the bus times, etc, we are supposedly taking to go to the "official" location because he double checks everything we tell him. We have to be on our toes at all times, aware of what we say so we don't accidentally give anything away. Hide pictures we take in her house (which is clearly not my aunt's house), risk having car complications on a road we are not supposed to be on... it's honestly nerve wracking. However to my mum this is nothing, barely something that needs to be mentioned, just a small favor she asks of us. And when I complain, she calls me childish and accuses me of wanting her to lose her alimony. She does not understand or accept at all that what she is doing to us is wrong, and this has strained my relationship with her even more.

For the past 5 years, since she got divorced, I have been living abroad, so the situation has only been problematic when I visited and I always tried to push through it because I knew I would be leaving again soon. However I am now back in the country, and even though I have been warning her for the past 5 years that she had to figure out a way around this because I would not stay a part of her charade anymore, she didn't do anything. And now that I am back, the situation has blown up between her and me. The distance I need to keep from her for my own wellbeing is so big at this point that I just don't want to visit, and I don't feel like talking more than a couple times per month at most - I feel so betrayed by her irresponsible, childish behaviour that I can barely talk to her, if I do I snap super easily and it escalates into a horrible argument each time. She is back at her push-pull dynamic where she begs and cries and insults me to try to get me to "love her", but accepts no responsibility for the kind of relationship I have with her, just accuses me of being selfish and having a heart made of ice, ie: it's basically all my choosing and my fault.

I have tried to reason things with her calmly, explaining which things that she did damaged me, and how I need this distance from her as a result of our history. I have begged her to attend therapy to try to understand all this better, since she doesn't seem to understand anything I say, just goes back to her "love me, love me". She has claimed she needs no help and therapists are all moneysuckers anyway, and they just read things off a book and brainwash you (which makes no sense because she has witnessed how seeing a therapist for two years has helped me a lot with my depression). She has also claimed she has no money for it because she lives off alimony and my father will retire soon (but she has built herself a house with a garden in the past two years and is traveling to Paris on holiday in a couple months, plus she doesn't even know how much or how little therapy costs). It's all hopeless - talking to her just breaks my brain. Interacting with her makes me regress and feel physically ill.

So basically, I am at a loss. I need to keep my distance but she keeps pulling for me to get closer, which makes me furious, which makes us clash. She accepts no responsibility and won't look for help. It's not that I want to have a closer relationship with her, I don't need it or want it, but I don't know how to face her anymore - I am currently looking for a new therapist to try to work on how to make this situation more stable, even if it's only from my side, because what else can I do? I even suggested joint therapy and she refused. My only other option seems to be cutting her out drastically.

I guess my goal putting all this out here, aside from venting, is looking for some form of validation, because after fighting with her yet again during Christmas (she started crying her eyes out then shouting at me about me not saying "good morning"...which I tend not to do, not just to her, and she knows this, it's just me and my "general detachment") my brain is so broken that I am starting to doubt myself. Do I have a right to want a distance and try to keep it? Do I have a right to feel betrayed by her childish behaviour? Isn't what she is doing to me and my sister for the past five years (asking us to lie for her without ever considering whether we wanted to be a part of it or not) absolutely wrong, no excuses possible?

Oh, Kotori, I am so sorry to read all of this.

Living so long with that kind of complete lack of healthy boundaries from and with a parent is a very hard thing to live with, and it sounds like you've tried very hard to do what you can to make things healthier in your relationship with your mother. Alas, it sounds like she's just not willing to put in any of that kind of effort herself.

By all means, you have the right to want the space you do, and reading all you've written here, it seems to me that until or unless your mother is willing to try and build, create and be part of healthy change in how she interacts with you, it really looks like all you have left to even do to try and get that for yourself. I also can certainly understand your feelings of betrayal: when our parents won't really be our parents, and behave with us more like pals or like WE are the parent, it is very emotionally difficult, and will often leave a person feeling parentless, as, in this way, you have been. I also hear you expressing feeling manipulated by your mother, and I can certainly see how you'd feel that way, too: her behaviour seems very manipulative to me.

Besides listening more, if you'd like, how can we best help and support you with this?

Thanks so much for your support and very kind words Heather, it's reassuring to feel validated. The few people I have talked to about this in the past actually all seem to be apalled that my mum would behave like this, and act sympathetic towards me. And lately this raises a different fear in me as well - the fear that I am the one unconsciously manipulating the situation to make people sympathise with me and cast myself as the victim, and that my mum is the real victim. I am good with words and stringing logical arguments - got this from my dad, who is a master at verbal manipulation, and I learned how to be just as good as him if not better during our endless fights as I was growing up. My sister and mum never learned how to do this (my mum is actually quite bad at following/constructing logical arguments), meaning that now when I try to reason with my mum logically, she feels and claims I am the one manipulating the conversation to get to the point I want, while casting her in a bad light.

So I guess that I sometimes fear that I might be "cherry picking" or blowing out of proportion "certain bad instances" and leaving out the good when I talk about my mum (like when I was put in a mental hospital a couple of years ago because of a slump in my depression and she immediately flew to the US to stay with me for months, among many other things). Maybe I have constructed such a solid narrative about my traumas growing up that I compel people to "buy it" without questioning. Like I said I have always been good with words, and I know well how to use them in a manipulative way, even if I despise people who do that. But since I have the ability to do it, who's to say I'm not deluded? After all my father is completely sure that everyone but him is in the wrong, and he is not aware of being abusive or manipulative. Who's to say I'm not acting just like my father did towards my mum, since I snap at her for nothing every time she speaks, and she is right in her accusations of "you're just like your father"? Maybe I am the narcissistic child of a narcissist who is unaware of it.

I tell myself that I am an introspective person, who reflects on herself and her faults, and who has been in therapy for two years and never received any feedback pointing in that direction (even if my family issues were never the topic of therapy, just my depression)... so that must mean something, right? Wouldn't such a thing shine through? Or maybe... I managed to manipulate my therapist into thinking what I "wanted" for two years, instead? I don't know. I am confused and feel guilty. My mum's accusations do this to me (this is part of what I mean when I say "my brain is broken" - I don't know what I believe anymore. Maybe a part of her manipulation, maybe there's truth in what she says, maybe both?). I am hoping that since my new therapy is going to focus on these issues, I can get some reassurance regarding my own behaviour.

Aside from going back to therapy and working on my own issues, would you say there is any point in maintaining a relationship with my mum, if she is not willing to put work into this? Because if she doesn't do anything from her side it seems to me that no matter how much therapy I go to, things can't get more stable because she will never accept my distance and I will never be the loving daughter she yearns for. It would cause me great pain to cut her off, mostly because she would be in immense and unbearable pain as a result. But at the same time, I feel my own mental health should be my main concern even if she never understands and hates me for it. Would you say cutting her off is something I should consider at this point?

I think it is helpful when thinking like this to remind yourself that someone who was, earnestly, like you are afraid you are, would not be asking themselves these questions.

Sounds like you know that from experience already with your family, but it's easy to forget, I think, especially when you are so scared of being like people you know are...well, in one way or another, scary.

In terms of making decisions about how you want to have a relationship with your mother - including the option of not having one at all - I would suggest you lead with your own self-care. After all, healthy relationships leave room for that, so if we ever feel we have to choose between our own self-care and a relationship, or any way of interacting within one, we can know that we're probably choosing between something very good for us and something very bad for us, and what's healthy and good for us is always the best choice. Does that make sense?

I know, for the record, from a very personal place, how hard these kinds of choices are to make. There have been years when I didn't even speak to some or all members of my family, by intentional choice to take care of myself (and hope that maybe, just maybe, they might actually do their own work, even if for no one else but themselves), and even when that is the better choice - and personally, it so was for me - that sure doesn't make even considering it an easy one or something that doesn't hurt like hell and feel awfully scary. I am very sorry you're in the position to have to even consider this stuff.

I do want to add that the suffering your mother may feel if you do separate yourself from her isn't likely something she can't bear UNLESS she also chooses, should that happen, to stay exactly as she is and not do her own work to process that and take the responsibility she needs to for you and for herself. And we're she to choose not to do any of that and suffer greatly as a result, that would be on her completely, not on you. You making space to have some boundaries because someone else won't allow you to have them no matter what you do is not you hurting them, but you doing what a person needs to for themselves to have those boundaries, because we all need them. You see, from your mother's behavior and also how it makes you feel what happens when people go without or refuse them.

In terms of making decisions about how you want to have a relationship with your mother - including the option of not having one at all - I would suggest you lead with your own self-care. After all, healthy relationships leave room for that, so if we ever feel we have to choose between our own self-care and a relationship, or any way of interacting within one, we can know that we're probably choosing between something very good for us and something very bad for us, and what's healthy and good for us is always the best choice. Does that make sense?

I do want to add that the suffering your mother may feel if you do separate yourself from her isn't likely something she can't bear UNLESS she also chooses, should that happen, to stay exactly as she is and not do her own work to process that and take the responsibility she needs to for you and for herself. And we're she to choose not to do any of that and suffer greatly as a result, that would be on her completely, not on you.

All this makes a lot of sense, even if it doesn't make the guilt go away completely, but it still helps A LOT to hear it from someone else. I just feel so at peace when I am not interacting with my mum and nothing reminds me of her, much more focused and relaxed. To be completely honest, right now I wish she would just not contact me for a year or something like that, so I could focus fully on my career and other struggles I am going through. I am so tired of having to keep dealing with family issues year after year, in one shape or another - it seems it will go on for the rest of my life, and all I have wished for since I have memory of things is peace of mind. However she will not be the one to take the step to stop interacting with me, it is I who would need to make the choice, and I am still unsure, but if I knew she would be at peace with it, I would do cut her off for some time right away.

Anyway, I have managed to push my therapy start date to this week, so I will be able to start working on things. Thanks so, so much for the support Heather. It really does wonders to feel understood.

Of course. I'm happy to give it.

I wonder how you might feel about trying to set no-contact limits for shorter periods of time for now? In other words, how about telling your mother that you will not be in contact, and are asking her not to contact you, for a month? Obviously, she may not respect that boundary, but, of course, you don't have to pick up the phone, etc. It just seems like starting smaller than what you ideally want might a) allow you to at least start getting the kind of space you want, b) allow you to start setting and holding those lines, c) give your mother the start of some practice working with those limits and d) perhaps help you build up some comfort and confidence setting those limits, holding them and feeling out what having the real space you want is like for you so you can have that experience to inform these choices as you go.

I would add again that your mother having peace with any of this really is about her: if she doesn't WANT to be at peace -- and it sounds like she doesn't, in part probably because she doesn't yet know how to live with boundaries, sans manufactured drama and conflict, and is resistant to seeking out help to learn how to live differently and in healthier ways -- she won't be. But I'd say she's made clear she's not at peace no matter what you do: she's not at peace when you're allowing her not to have boundaries with you, she's not at peace when you're trying to have them. This is how you can know pretty clearly that it just sounds like your mother, as a person, is in conflict and not at peace in and with herself, and that's just not something you can do for her. It's something she can only do for herself.

I know that that stinks: even when someone has hurt you very badly, if you love them, you don't want them to suffer, so seeing them always suffering is painful, and I'd say it's human to kind of go to the magical thinking -- or that person's insistence with their own delusional thinking -- that says you can make it go away or make it better. But if they won't do anything to change that, there literally isn't jack you can do, since you can't even support them in a process or journey they won't choose to be any part of. Know what I mean?

On the other hand, sometimes limits and boundaries with someone like this can put them in a position where they are more likely to seek out help to change or acknowledge they have to. That's not what this is all really about: this is all really about what you need to do to care for yourself. But what does that also happens to be the thing most likely to make your mother have to face up to some of her own stuff. It might not, of course, but enabling her in any way only supports her in not having to change or acknowledge her way of operating is unhealthy and harmful to all of you, including herself.

I wonder how you might feel about trying to set no-contact limits for shorter periods of time for now? In other words, how about telling your mother that you will not be in contact, and are asking her not to contact you, for a month?

I am unsure. Actively expressing my wish to not talk to her, even if temporarily, and even though if it should be sort of clear by now anyway, is further expanding the distance I need from her in a very obvious way. I think it could further aggravate things, as in she would have a new item in her list of "things Kotori does which make me suffer and make her an awful daughter". Even though I know it is not my responsibility for her to be ok, but I think she could become even more fixated on her own suffering and my own "wrongdoings", if that's even possible. I was actually talking to my sister recently about these issues and she said she wished she could cut all contact with both my parents for a year, as well, without me having brought that specific thought up to her. The thing is that having them not talk to me/us through "force", without them actively agreeing to it, would still leave me/us feeling tense and guilty, and not put them 100% out of our mind. So I'm still not sure it would be worth it. Either way, if I do it, progressively may be the best approach. I'll keep thinking about it.

I hear you talking a lot here in ways that sound like you thinking you can control her feelings and reactions to things: you can't, and that's just not the way to go about any relationship with anyone. Of course, the way she's raised you has taught you to try and do expressly that -- and has led you to believe that it's you, rather than she, who's responsible for her feelings -- but you're very clear you want those dynamics to end so that they don't have to be part of your life anymore.

It may be that you just need more help, over time, getting away from those codependent patterns, before you can really even get started with any of this, and that would certainly be understandable. Again, they're going to be very deeply entrenched with you because this has basically been the whole of your life when it's come to your mother, probably starting long, long before you even knew this wasn't okay, and also being something that's probably been a big part of how you have learned about any kind of relationship and interpersonal dynamics, which will make this stuff hella sticky.

By all means, when anyone who has been codependent starts to behave differently and outside that mold, they will have some pretty hard, scary and conflicted feelings. Doing right, when it comes to NOT being that way, is going to feel like doing wrong, because you've been taught and trained, in a word, that it is.

So, what do you want and feel ready for here? Do you think you can go ahead and take some baby steps with the space you want, knowing you are going to have those feelings, but do what you need to for yourself anyway, and just have them and deal with them? Or do you feel like you might need more time and help -- like from a therapist who can work with you expressly on this -- before that feels like something you can handle?

(I would add that there isn't likely anything that's going to put a parent 100% out of your mind, especially one where there's been so much dysfunction and conflict. Alas, we don't get to have that for more than small periods of time -- as in minutes, hours or maybe days, but probably not longer than that, if that. So, I'd not try to think of that as the goal with any of your choices, because that's just not something realistic no matter what you do, though I certainly can understand why it's something you want.)

I guess I am at the point where I know very well (rationally) that my mum's (or anyone's) feelings/reactions are not my responsibility, but I still feel (irrationally) there is something, somehow, I can do to make her feel not so bad and therefore improve the dynamic. But of course that's not true and as you put so well, it's part of the codependent pattern that was ingrained into me. It doesn't happen just with her, either - just this morning I realized that part of the reason I feel so awful about the situation where I have to lie to my father about where she lives is not just because of her disregard for me and my sister in putting us in this situation - but also because apparently I feel deeply responsible for avoiding my father getting hurt if/when he finds out, despite my almost total lack of emotional connection with him. I am working very very very hard at making my friendships and relationships not codependent (they have been in the past), and I think I am slowly succeeding at that, but the relationship with my parents seems to be a much stickier issue.

I am certain about what I want, but not so much of being able, right now, to keep it up without being consumed by feelings of guilt (as in, I know there WILL be guilt no matter what, but it shouldn't completely block me, or make me so miserable that I need to cave in - I am not sure at this point that will not happen). I guess I need more help before I can take more steps - this is going to be the sole focus of the therapy I am starting tomorrow.

I'm so happy for you that that starts tomorrow!

I'm also so very sorry that you're struggling so much with this and have such a huge thing to try and unlearn and learn how to do differently anew. I think it's super-easy to feel overwhelmed with something like this, because, of course, it IS overwhelming. I hope that you feel able to give yourself permission to only be taking baby steps and making gradual progress over time, since that really is the best anyone can do.

Thanks again Heather. I actually feel proud of my baby steps, just wish I could be done already, but am not frustrated at myself. Fingers crossed for hitting it off with my therapist tomorrow

It's a lifelong process, truly.

I know that doesn't sound like the best news ever, because you wish it had a point at which it was just done, and that point was now, no less, but it really is never done. It does, however, tend to feel less and less difficult, and less and less like it holds you back, and more and more like the work you do with it benefits you and the whole of your life. For me, with anything like this, that's the bright spot: while the big yuck stuff we have to work through sucks, the work and growth that we do to process and heal from it IS of benefit, and probably wouldn't be something we'd put as much effort into otherwise.

Tell me about it! Working with my previous therapist on my depression, however much it sucked, made me grow and learn and evolve at a 1000x faster rate than if I had never suffered from it. Silver linings, I guess?

A sort of related question - I had my first therapy session today, and even though it was ok, I am wondering: any tips on how to know if a therapist is "the right fit" for me? For example, me and my therapist in the US got along fine, and I did feel comfortable, but I'd say we didn't 100% click, and I'd like to find a really good fit this time. I'm wondering if there is something specific I should be on the lookout for, or if it's a matter of "you'll know they're the one when it happens", and I shouldn't worry about it

I'd suggest asking a lot of questions, whatever you have about this person and how they work, in general. Too, if you have a sense of WHY you and your last therapist didn't click, you can talk about that with a new one and see if their answers sit well with you.

But too, unless you do a really thorough screening -- both based on information about them that's published someone, like on a webpage, for you to see and review, and based on a first visit where you are basically taking a good deal of time to essentially interview each other -- it's often going to take an appointment or two to get a feel for that. Even when you do all that and everything seems good, it still might a bit of time.

I'd just make a pitch for you to trust your intuition and your gut sense of things: if something feels really off, or you just get a sense this isn't going to be the right person for you, ask for a referral. Therapy is expensive, and it also takes a lot from us in terms of time and emotional energy. Staying with a therapist that isn't someone you feel good with is like doing that in any kind of relationship: at best, a waste of your time (and theirs).

It's not that things feel/felt off per se, it's more about a friend of mine describing a strong connection with her therapist that I never really experienced with mine, and that she says made her improve her situation in leaps and bounds. But that might be an unrealistic expectation on my part. Maybe that's not really necessary, as long as I don't get a gut feeling that I should look for someone else. I'll trust my gut, and I'm definitely going to wait for a few more sessions before deciding anything. Thanks

That tends to just take some real time, and dedicated work on BOTH parts. So, when a therapist is brand new, probably no one is really feeling quite that way, especially since no one can turn stuff around in a huge way in therapy in a short period of time. That kind of change tends to take at least months, and usually longer.