Am I a bad person?

[aj2234]

A few months ago, I started chatting to a guy that I work with. Many guys at work objectify my body, and this particular person told me about it, and also complimented me, while dismissing the other guys at work as gross. I enjoyed talking to him. Eventually, the topic turned sexual. We discussed what we enjoyed sexually (without the intention to do these things to one another, as I'm in a long term relationship and he is in a committed sexual relationship), which only occasionally turned inappropriate on his part with comments such as 'where do I sign up?', to which I only replied with short answers or 'haha' to bypass the awkwardness. I really enjoy discussing sex and find it an interesting topic. My boyfriend, however, does not, and doesn't discuss it with his friends. I have discussed it with a few friends. Recently, I deleted the conversation, which also included simply talking about work, hobbies, television shows, and more mundane things. For some reason, I wasn't comfortable with it there anymore (we have also fallen out of contact). However, the guy I was chatting to still has access to the conversation. Although I enjoy sex and sexuality as a topic of conversation and my boyfriend knows this, I have never told him that I discussed my sexual interests with another male. Lately, I've been a bit moody and so I'm paranoid that I've done something terribly wrong, and that something will go wrong and somehow my boyfriend will see the messages and not understand my viewpoint. I know this is a long-winded scenario, but it's one that's making me a bit worried. I don't feel it necessary to mention it to him at this stage, as I do have a tendency to emotionally overact to things, but I was just wondering if I was in the wrong here, and have done something inappropriate? I can't decide for myself.

[aj2234]

Just adding a little more - I think the main reason I'm grappling with guilt here is because I never aim to be that bad person who betrays their partner. Friends of mine have previously accused me of flirting with a male friend, who I asked if I was, in fact, flirting with him, and he said that I was just a bright, bubbly person. I do actually discuss this sort of thing with other males in person very casually, without any innuendo behind it, which I don't feel guilty about it. I feel as though using messages, which could (as I said, in a terrible, far fetched scenario), be used against me is the main reason why I feel guilt, which makes me feel more guilty.

[Ashleah]

Hi AJ,

Can you tell me more about why you feel this is something that could be used against you? And is there a particular reason you think your boyfriend would be uncomfortable with you talking about sex? Anything that has happened in the relationship?

[aj2234]

I think saying it aloud (or at least typing it) is making me realise that this is just part of being an anxious person (for which I do have help available to me). I just feel like if his sexual partner didn't know about the messages and didn't view them favourable, they could be sent to my boyfriend. Which, I know seems pretty silly, but it's always that silly, niggling feeling that gets me. I don't think he would be uncomfortable. I told him that I have done it and he seemed surprised, which, in turn, surprised me. I think it's mainly the gender thing - with him not being as comfortable discussing it as I am, I don't know if it would make him annoyed to learn that I spoke about it to another male. There have been complications throughout our relationship, and one such complication (problems with his family, him being very busy and taking me for granted) did occur while I was regularly chatting to this person. However, it was just nice to have someone to talk to, period, rather than it being anything sinister.

[Ashleah]

Well being comfortable talking about sex and sexuality isn't really about gender. That would be something that would varied by the individual.

So in general, I don't think there is anything wrong with talking about sex, I don't think that that stops being okay just because you are in a relationship with someone. While respecting a partner (and being respected by that partner) is certainly a huge piece and requirement in a relationship, talking with someone else is not one of those things I would file under disrespect. And once we are in a relationship doesn't mean that we have to tell our partners everything that we do! Would you feel like you had to share every random conversations you had with your best friend? Probably not, nor do you have to.

That being said, you do seem to feel that you have crossed a boundary in your relationship. I say that because of the guilt that you say you are experiencing as well as you feeling like you need to hide this? Do I have that right? That is why I asked you more about why you are feeling this way and if anything has come up in your relationship that essentially makes you feel this is something you can't do. When a partner is doing things that makes us feel like he have to change behaviors that not a good sign. That doesn't just look like a person saying "you can't do this" but could be the person trying to make their partner feel guilty. You haven't indicated that is the case here but I wanted to check in with you about that. If that is not the case, I still don't think that you should ignore your feelings. It seems that something made you feel uncomfortable about the conversations you were having and it might be helpful to explore more of why that is!

[aj2234]

I think I felt guilty because I didn't know if I had crossed a boundary or not. I had actually told my boyfriend that I was talking to this person - if he looks over my shoulder I always say 'oh I'm just messaging (whoever)' and I don't hide that. I didn't delete the messages to hide them so much as I just wanted to forget about it, as the person and I weren't really talking any more.

I think I'm uncomfortable because he doesn't really talk about sex with me. And then to talk about it with another guy then sort of seems a bit...I don't know, odd, I guess? I never felt guilty during the conversations, and actually said to the person that it's an objective topic that I like to discuss. We did exchange photos of ourselves but it was only because we both shopped at the same store and were showing clothes. I guess I just doubt my own intentions sometimes, but telling you all of this, and hearing what you've had to say is making me feel like I'm feeling guilty over something that I shouldn't be feeling guilty over. I think I just got stuck in a bit of a cycle of guilt and worry and couldn't make sense of it in my own head.

[Redskies]

I'm wondering if some of your hinky feelings about that conversation are coming from your boundaries being overstepped by the guy you were talking to. Can I reflect back to you a couple of things you said when you started talking with us about this? You said

occasionally turned inappropriate on his part with comments such as 'where do I sign up?', to which I only replied with short answers or 'haha' to bypass the awkwardness

(bolding mine). I hear you there saying very clearly that you weren't comfortable at the time with how that guy was behaving in conversation with you, and that you wanted a different kind of conversation than the one he was apparently trying to have.

Does that ring true for you?

There's not only one way of talking about sex. For example, we - staff/vols - talk about sex a LOT here, but you can probably grasp in a fraction of a second that we talk about it very, very differently in a professional capacity here than we would if we were talking about it in social time with a couple of close friends, than we would with a sexual partner, and again differently to how we might talk to a therapist. What you said to us about liking to talk about sex sounded to me like you want to talk about it, but you don't want to engage sexually - even only in words - with a person you're talking about it this way to, and/or with that particular guy. He, on the other hand, was engaging with you in a personal way, and - how you described it - a way you didn't want and weren't comfortable with.

If I'm in the right ballpark here, would you like to talk about how to recognise, set, and hold your own boundaries in the future in these kinds of conversations, so that you can have only the kinds of conversations you do want?

[aj2234]

Actually, that's probably very true. That's a really, really, good point and I hadn't actually considered that it might where my feelings come from. I think you're absolutely right. I never wanted it to be a flirty, innuendo-filled conversation and for the most part it wasn't, but when those moments come up, it's difficult to respond politely without sounding flirty or overly engaged. For example, I sent a photo of myself and he said I sent it because I 'had the girls out' in the clothes I wore. I was insulted, because...of course I did? I'm a woman with breasts and I wore the particular clothes to university and then out. I tried to explain that I sent the photo because I purchased the clothes from the site we both liked, but he didn't really believe me. I think that's what bothers me. If my boyfriend were to see that conversation, because I'm trying to be polite, it does seem a little flirty. When really, it's not the relationship boundaries, but my boundaries that were being squished, making the situation uncomfortable and making me feel like I'd done something wrong.

I wouldn't mind some advice on it. I find it hard to assert boundaries. For example, as I said earlier, I do get objectified at work. I work as a waitress and have been told that the entire back of house like my backside. My manager even told me. I laughed at first because I was shocked but then it started getting unpleasant, and I felt as though because I laughed, there was nothing I could do in the situation aside from something severe, such as contact HR, which would probably garner negative reactions to me. While I don't need help with this large scale situation, I would appreciate some help with how to assert boundaries more clearly in conversations such as that, particularly where they've started positively, or I've replied positively to something in a similar vain to something else that makes me uncomfortable. I talked to this person yesterday and it turns out we're both happy and in relationships and he said he was happy my boyfriend is still with me (as we were having troubles), and that we were both happy that we're happy. So, I don't so much need help with this conversation, but future ones.

I don't think I've been successful when I've tried to assert boundaries. I showed girls at work a revealing photo of myself (which I was 100% content with doing) and then the back of house found out about it, including the person I was talking to. He continued to ask why he couldn't see it and I kept saying things such as 'girls only', 'well, you weren't there, so too bad' etc., which didn't work. So, I'm guessing a more direct approach might be perceived as less polite, but better in the long run?

I tried not long ago with a different person who kept saying 'suck my dick' in a joking, but obviously sexual way. I replied saying 'I have a boyfriend to do that to' to try and keep it light hearted, but also shut off his intentions, which I didn't feel really worked, as he said I was 'playing the boyfriend card'. This was despite this person having a girlfriend.

[Heather]

I have a couple things to suggest, just to get you started.

For one, how about just practicing with some self-talk where you are very clear and direct, like VERY clear and direct. Since it's just yourself you'll be talking to, it will probably be a lot easier to just start to feel out doing that without feeling too intimidated.

For instance, just to give you some examples based on a couple of your examples:

From that dude: "You sent that photo because you 'had the girls out' in the clothes I wore."
You: "No, I sent it because I purchased the clothes from the site we both liked."

(If someone doesn't believe you when you tell the truth like that, you just have to leave it and accept that. But if they push you per arguing against your own reason, then your next response is to tell them it's hurtful of them to push like that and say, "Please drop it, now.")

From your co-workers and manager: "The entire back of house likes your backside."
Response: "That's not an appropriate thing to say with a co-worker or employee. Please don't say things like that to me at work."

(I also would suggest always contacting HR with any sexual harassment at work, and wouldn't call that a severe response, but a very basic one. It's their job to protect you from negative outcomes, and in the long run, standing up for yourself is likely to garner you more respect at work, not less, even though I know it's scary to do and can feel like the opposite will be true.)

To the co-worker who didn't accept your no about seeing the photo: "No, you may not, and it's not okay to pressure me. I need you to accept my no, please."

(On that note, just as an FYI, when we ask for certain boundaries at work, we're going to need to respect them too. So, it also really isn't appropriate at work to be sharing revealing photos of yourself, and even in ways it might be, if you want others to respect that kind of boundary with you, it's important to reflect that in your own behaviour, lest mixed messages get sent. Make sense?)

From the person telling you to suck their dick: "Please stop saying that to me. It's not okay with me and I don't think it's funny."

Just going through these kinds of scripts alone and saying your answers out loud, so you can get used to doing it and hearing how they sound should help some. Sometimes it's harder in a high-stakes situation to assert boundaries when it's very on-the-fly and we're not used to giving clear answers with clear limits.

It sounds, too, like you might just need some help or coaching when it comes to really feeling that you, like anyone, are entitled to HAVE boundaries and to have them respected. Some of what you've posted about here and what you've said about it sounds, to me, like you don't really feel you have a right to that in a real way (like suggesting reporting sexual harassment to HR is severe, for instance). It's very difficult to set and hold clear limits and boundaries if we don't think it's okay for us to do that or really get that we -- as all people do -- have a right to those, and aren't being hypersensitive in doing so, but are just insisting we're treated with some vague modicum of respect.

This might be a good piece on the site to start with for you: Be Your Own Superhero: Learning How and When to Stand Up for Ourselves.

Too, a lot of people raised as women have unfortunately been taught that being "polite" or "nice" matters more than our personal safety or our feelings of safety. It doesn't, and again, just asking for basic respect when it isn't being afforded us isn't impolite, anyway: it's the people who aren't doing that in the first place who are being rude and aren't being nice.

This piece came out last year, and I thought it addressed that issue very well: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... men-curfew

This is a pretty good primer, too: http://www.bustle.com/articles/46527-6- ... we-need-to

Lastly, I want to add that with all the examples you've given here, you have most likely, if not for sure, been dealing with people who I feel I can assure you KNOW that they are harassing you in some way or just generally being out of line. I think that's helpful to bear in mind when you're struggling to be assertive, because it can be harder to be if you feel like people doing this don't know, so you're both having to educate them AND set limits. But they usually know, and more than anything, are often just testing to see if you'll let them get away with it or not. I know that's pretty gross, and doesn't feel so great to acknowledge, but I do think that knowing that makes it easier to set limits and boundaries, because you can know you're not telling them something they don't already know (and probably wouldn't do themselves, were the shoe on the other foot).

[aj2234]

Thank you Heather, I'll try and practice these sorts of things so I can try and shut down uncomfortable conversations should they arise again. They don't actually seem as rude as I would have thought, which is a bit annoying to learn in hindsight, but at least I know now. I think one of things that stops me from speaking up is that the nature of these men that I work with suggests that they would go down the period route and mock me if I was ever angry, which is just ridiculous and invalidating. It's definitely something that I can forsee them saying if not to me, than to another woman. I think I've been stopped before as well by thinking that they're just making fun, or teasing or doing something else seemingly 'light hearted' that doesn't match such a direct response. I think the politeness part factors in here, which is something I'll have to reframe in my mind so my boundaries are respected.

Per the photo, I showed girls who I worked with outside of work hours - it was at a dinner, then one of them (I don't know who) thought it would be funny to tell the kitchen, which I didn't enjoy. As I don't know who it was, and it was about 10 people (thought less than that saw the photo), I can't really pill anyone aside and express that. But, I guess it's fair enough that I have to minimise the risks to my own boundaries, particularly if it turns out I can't fully trust everyone to respect my boundaries (most know that, although I do like my own body, I don't like being stared at etc. by the B.O.H).

Uh, I know all about the politeness/gender thing, so it upsets me a little that I've engaged in it like second nature. A few situations in the Guardian article ring true for me as well. It's very upsetting that girls have been raised to put up with harassment.

I definitely know that some people try to get away with it at work - I really don't respect them and don't engage them in any conversation. They have girlfriends as well. It's a very uncomfortable thing. Although I haven't been forthcoming with expressing my boundaries, I still have an okay sense of myself and, in these situations, I mostly feel badly for their girlfriends.

I'll review my company's policy and might approach HR after a little research as well.

[Heather]

I'd cut yourself a break here about what you've internalized when it comes to gender socialization with this. After all, this stuff is SO pervasive, and so much of everything to do with gender and our gender or sex and our place in the world IS learned, so yep: much of our "natures" are things we learn and internalize and they will very much FEEL like nature, even though they're really nurture instead.

Unlearning all that crap and learning how to stand up for ourselves tends to take real time and effort (and patience with ourselves!): it's rarely something people just magically do nor come to -- unless they were raised with a bunch of challenges to all this and support in being assertive -- easily or without help.

I'm heading off for the day, but if you want to talk more, I'm around working all weekend, and would also be happy to help you with some thoughts about strategies if and when you do set a limit or say something isn't funny, and anyone's comeback to that is either sexism or misogyny (especially since the easy bit with that one is that if and when someone does that, it's about as sure a way to know they are actually aware you can have power and feel intimidated, otherwise they wouldn't be trying to take power away from you like that), or some other way of trying to refuse your limits.

[aj2234]

I know it is. The history behind it all and socialisation patterns, are very interesting, but also sad and disappointing to study because of the pure misogyny behind it. I'll relax a little with blaming myself for it. It's just a little frustrating to sit back and see that it's what happened.

I think you've giving me a good starting kit into beginning to assert my boundaries more and realise that, regardless of a conversation topic, boundaries can still be in place and deserve to be respectful. This has actually been a really enlightening thread - I really didn't realise I felt bad about my own boundaries. You know that big physical feeling of relief and loss of weight when you find your keys, or something like that? I felt that when I realised it might be my boundaries. So that's been really really nice for me and I think to answer my own thread, no - I'm not a bad person.

[Heather]

I couldn't be more glad to hear you feeling this way: hooray for meaningful and positive turnarounds!

[aj2234]

Thank you very much, Heather!