Scarleteen

Hello everyone,

there's something I've been fretting about a bit lately and I was wondering if any of the lovely people who frequent this place could give me any insights / advice.

Lately, I have begun hanging out a bit more with other women from work ("more" in my case being more than a month...) and I think I am even making a new friend, for the first time in years. This is nice, of course. However, they are all straight and most of them single and looking for partners, while I am neither and this causes a bit of uneasiness, because:

- When they talk about men they find attractive, I usually feel a bit left out and at a loss what to say. There seems to be some general consensus as to what is "hot" which I don't share; I am in a long-term relationship with a guy and happily so, but I am not in general attracted to male attributes or body parts. There are individual guys whom I find attractive aside from my partner, but I don't think this has much to do with the fact that they are male and the kind of traditional male beauty displayed by superheroes or athletes does really nothing for me.

- The older I get, the more I feel attracted to women though. Not all women, but women in general seem to provoke more of a response in me sexually than men in general. I don't want to leave my partner for a woman (the "being attracted to individuals" thing is stronger than any gender preference with me, plus of course I love him dearly) or open up the relationship; it's more of a theoretical issue, but it's there.

So what very often happens is that we sit there, the girls are happily discussing abs and pecs and jawlines and potential dates, and I just smile sympathetically and feel awkward and out of it and try very hard not to look at their breasts. This one woman whom I think I could even become friends with is very pretty and very friendly, and she'll occasionally take my arm while walking or give me a friendly hug and I must admit I like that a bit more than can be filed under "platonic".

My problem is not my relationship. My partner knows I am bi / pan and our definition of "not cheating" doesn't include not enjoying attraction to anyone else, we simply don't act on it. My relationship is just fine. The problem is that I am not being completely honest with other people and so of course have trouble making a real connection with them, also that I feel guilty / creepy for being attracted to women who have no idea that this is so and consider themselves in a safe, all-girls space. I never make any kind of advances and try really hard to not be inappropriate in any way, but I still feel like a predator, somehow.

I should probably just come out to them, but I don't feel we know each other well enough yet. I live in a very rural area, many people around here have notions about homosexuality, specifically female homosexuality, that haven't changed much since the 1950s. I grew up with a best friend who is lesbian, people used to think we were a couple and believe me, I have had my share of discrimination and being ostracized. As for being bi, I am not sure that's regarded in a much friendlier light and the word "pansexual" isn't even in most people's vocabulary.

Also, what would I say? "Just so you know, I like women, but I'm with a man and not planning on changing that any time soon because we love each other and are happy. Oh, and I haven't ever so much as kissed a girl either, but I am 100% sure that I'd like to, theoretically, if I weren't in a relationship already." Um... I am not sure they'd understand that...

My sexual identity just hasn't been relevant to my daily life for so long, I have no idea how to handle it now.

Hi Sunshine,

This is such a tricky situation to be in, especially in a place where part of your identity isn't even in most people's vocabularies!

Like you said, feeling attracted to people (no matter who they are) is totally natural and okay as long as one doesn't act on those attractions in ways that are not okay or respectful to the people around them. Since you are clearly not doing that and seem to be being very conscious and respectful of the women around you, why do you think you are feeling guilty about it or even like a predator?

And even though coming out to people, especially when you don't know them well, can be really hard and put you in a vulnerable place, it sounds like that is something you feel like you want to do and may even strengthen your relationships with these women (and if they react poorly, you don't need that kind of negative energy in your life anyways!). Since it sounds like the topic of attraction and partners comes up often, you could slip something into the conversation that way. Or another option may be to just bring it up yourself like "I have something I've been meaning to share with you all..." or something along those lines. What ways do you think you may feel most comfortable saying this to them?

One thing I want to mention is that you aren't being dishonest by not explicitly talking about your orientation with your co-workers. If you'd feel more comfortable coming out to them, then it's totally fine to, but it's not wrong or sinister in any way if you don't do it right now.

Hey Carmen, thanks for the reply!

I think I feel guilty because I assume that if the women I feel attracted to knew I was looking at them "that way", they would be grossed out and uncomfortable. When we were growing up, girls in school would not want to sit next to my friend or be in the communal shower with her because they felt threatened somehow by the fact that she is lesbian. Those who thought I was her girlfriend would extend this behavior to me. We never did anything, never touched anybody, never tried to flirt. Heck, we didn't actually find any of them attractive, but so it was and I guess it stuck with me somehow.

It's really nice to have a bit of a social life. I don't need much of that and I only like it in small doses, but it's nice nontheless. It's also nice to be accepted at work. I suppose I am actually terrified that if I came out, my school experiences would repeat themselves.

I've never thought of myself as closeted before. I've never lied to anybody and said I was straight, but people of course assume I am because I have a male partner and I suspect I've been using that to hide behind and not have to deal with any of the issues that other queer people simply don't have the chance of avoiding.

I don't think I'd like to make a big deal out of it, like some kind of great announcement. Maybe I'll let this one woman privately in on the fact that my first love was a girl, if the subject of teenage romances ever comes up again, then see how she takes that.

Another thing I think I am afraid of is being labeled as dramatic or attention-seeking. People could wonder, what is she coming out for when she's not looking for a romance / sex / dates / etc.? Or they could just flat-out tell me that I don't know what I am because I don't have any sexual experience to speak of outside my relationship.

Oh, and hello Mo, thank you as well for your kind words. I feel a bit reassured now.

Yeah, these people being colleagues from work doesn't exactly make anything easier. It's not as if there would be any danger to me; I don't live in a place where being gay is illegal or anything, my experiences with other people on this matter just haven't been the best.

*Sigh*... it's been such a relief lately when my friend has texted me and I've been able to talk to her naturally and honestly. She's out at work (and everywhere else), but she moved to a metropolitan area where people for the most part have more progressive mindsets.

Ah I am sorry you had to deal with that kind of behavior from people growing up - and it is so easy for those kind of things to stick with us unfortunately.
It's great that work has been bring some social life to you too
Bringing the topic up with one person first seems like a good plan of action, especially because you said you feel particularly closer to one of the women? And that way you can avoid having to deal with people that react in ways that make you feel like you are being dramatic too.
And like Mo said, if it feels like the opportunity to tell someone never arises or you end up changing your mind about talking about it, that is totally okay and there is nothing wrong with never telling them.
(Also I'm glad you have your friend as a support system to talk to! )

Hi Sunshine,

I personally relate to some of the things you're talking about here, so maybe hearing a bit about that might help you out some - it's definitely been immensely helpful to me to read and hear other queer/bi/"bi-umbrella" women talk about similar things.

I came to understand where I see myself as a queer person through my viewpoint as a disabled person, and I can still understand and explain it better from my disability-perspective - I hope that's okay with you.

I grew up with the knowledge and experience that I have a disability simply as a fact. It simply was. Conversely, queerness in women, and bisexuality, was absolutely invisible to me, and I had no idea there was even anyone else like me until my mid-late teens. So, my disabled-self had one hell of a head-start over my queer-self! I'm deaf, and I'm also hearing. I have massive privilege in that I can successfully navigate much of the Hearing world, and many Hearing norms and requirements. That's just a fact; it's also nothing I've ever had a hand in, it's just the way the world is. People don't usually realise I'm disabled: they assume I'm able-bodied. I'm also now partnered with a person who is clearly disabled, so I grasp better than many just how shitty the world and some people can be when someone's visibly disabled. I am profoundly grateful that that kind of shit doesn't get aimed at me, because, who wouldn't be. Who would want that?

I am still disabled. What I get instead is the world as a whole assuming I am not deaf, and automatically expecting me to be able to operate exactly as a non-hearing-disabled person would. Having my deafness and my disability ignored and invisibilised is not a privilege: it is a massive disadvantage. It denies who I am and hurts my soul; but beyond that, it's a massive practical issue. Default-assuming me non-deaf isolates me, makes life harder for me, humiliates me, occasionally puts me in danger. I've never done a single thing to make anyone think I'm non-disabled; I simply live in the way that works best for me, and they assume me non-disabled. For me personally, I absolutely reject the notion or language of "passing". What other people assume isn't about me or what I do: I know this because even after being told, asked, reminded, begged otherwise, some people continue to try to treat me as if I were non-disabled.

I've come to understand my queer self in this way, too. I think that the world in general likes to be able to slot people into the "expected" pre-made boxes whenever remotely possible, and only doesn't do that when someone seems so "other" that it's impossible. If - when - people assume I'm straight, that's not my doing: it's on them. They assumed wrongly, and it's not my responsibilty - nor should it be - to stop that happening, or to always correct it. I am a queer person simply living my life, and if people assume wrongly, that's not on me, or on my choices. Sometimes it can make me feel "closeted", which is deeply confusing and hurts my soul. The way I think of this is that they're doing it, not me: I was just standing there, and some people came and brought planks and nails and started building a cupboard round me. Like, clearly that becomes my problem!- but it shouldn't be, I mean, why are people building a cupboard round someone else, what kind of bizarre thing is that? What I do in response is up to me, whatever I think best.

I really hear you on struggling to find your comfortable self-space in a not-very-queer environment. It can be really hard! Like Mo and Carmen already said, whatever you think is best is absolutely okay. And a note about safe-women-spaces: I can't speak for how any individual women feel, but as a general thing, no-one feeling attraction to anyone else is absolutely not necessary for a space like that. After all, many queer-women spaces sound pretty similar to the group you described (apart from the interest in men, of course! ) - and in any group of queer women, it's pretty likely that several folk have previously dated each other, even.

I don't think at all that you've not been honest with your co-workers, which is likely obvious from what I've already said , so I don't think you have a single thing to feel bad about there. You also absolutely don't have to or need to say a word about your history - or any lack of it - with women. Straight people are not generally expected to "demonstrate" their orientation, so it's just one of those double-standards for queer people. If you want to tell your colleagues your orientation, I'd suggest not leading with explanations/defence of your orientation: it's okay standing by itself, you don't need to justify it. It's true that sometimes people say one or any of the biphobic (cos that's what they are) things you're concerned about; you could say something like "I know who I've had feelings for in my life, so I know my orientation." If you want to have those conversations, might you want to look out some basic bi resources beforehand, both to give you confidence and help you know what you'd want to say in response, or to pass on the resources directly to people if you don't feel like being Human Bi-Myth Buster of the day?

Wow, thanks Redskies! You've really put some things into perspective for me.

You are right, I never closeted myself. It's other people just assuming I am what they think I am, and my experience with my family, for example, has been that evidence to the contrary is just ignored unless I rub it right in someone's face. I literally said "I am bi" to my mother once and she just gave me a blank stare, then continued our original conversation. Never brought it up again after that, because our once stormy relationship has become really good otherwise and it doesn't matter that much whether she fully understands my sexuality or not. It just goes to show how strong the resistance can be towards acknowledging anything outside the box.

So far, I haven't said anything to my new-found friend either. We went out for dinner the other night, just the two of us, and it would have been the perfect opportunity, but it was such a nice evening and I didn't feel like making it awkward. Also, she's having a bit of a struggle with body image, because she's a bigger girl and our "lovely" colleagues are being nasty about her weight, and I think she's really good-looking and want to be able to continually tell her so without her thinking I am hitting on her (which I of course am, the teeniest bit, which is not a problem for me or anything I want to act on, and I don't want it getting in the way of what looks like a very promising friendship).

I'm glad that was helpful to you!

I'm sorry that I was on-point enough about the interaction with your mother, though: that kind of thing doesn't feel good. It's not a super-unusual reaction from parents - I think some truly have no idea what to do or say, and maybe others wish it might go away.

I've been thinking of an open discussion thread for bi women who are dating men, with masses of comments from queer women talking about all kinds of different experiences with that, and coming into it from many different places: http://www.autostraddle.com/we-see-you- ... en-300258/ I think it might really help you out, if you haven't already seen it.

Sort of along those lines, when I read what you've written here, what I wonder is: do you feel like the way you live your queer self, the way you present your queer self, is it right for you? Is it enough for you? When we feel right with ourselves, what other people think of us or what they assume about us starts to matter less. For sure, other people stil matter. For example, personal considerations of our individual circumstances - our safety, our connections to our family, our professional and social well-being - are part of the picture when each of us makes our own decisions about how best for us to live and present our own self. But what really matters is whether we feel okay with the reality we have and the choices we make about our life and our presentation. When we're good with that - even if it's not ideal, even if we've needed or chosen to make compromises - other people's views usually matter less.

I do get the sense that you might not be feeling queer/bi "enough" for your own self. That's not unusual for bi folk, especially bi folk in a different-gender relationship! It's probably something to pay attention to, though, and to consider what things might help you with that, and seek them out. Too, when you're talking about your concerns about hanging out with straight colleagues and about maybe telling people, I'm hearing a fair amount of internalised biphobia. I know that sucks. We all have it, because it's in the world. I think that having some more tools to push back on that in your own mind might help a lot, as might having more contact with and/or exposure to bi-positive communities and media.

I realise I've diverted some from your specific questions about your colleagues - I hope that's okay. I'm feeling like I'm hearing a broader, unexpressed need in what you're saying, so it seemed right to address it. If you'd like to pick up the extra stuff I'm bringing up and you'd like any resources or suggestions, I'd be very happy to put some your way; just wanted to give you a chance to digest and respond first

Thanks, I'm fine with broadening the topic.

Am I happy with how I live my queer self? For the most part, yes. I am happy in my relationship. I love my partner. I honestly and fully accept the fact that I am attracted to people of every gender. More than that, I like it, I think it makes my life richer, it presents me with more chances at happiness. Because when I see someone I find attractive, I don't feel jealous of their partners or unsatisfied because I can't "have"them or uncomfortable, it just makes me happy. I enjoy being attracted to people.

Am I happy with how I express and present my queer self? Not entirely. I do feel somewhat repressed because there's almost nobody I can share my feelings with. My partner is loving and accepting to no end, but he's straight as straight can be and I think he doesn't have any real understanding of what it's like to not be straight (the fact that he doesn't and is still so open and supportive is one of the many reasons I love him. He's an awesome person, really). My best friend is great to talk to about being attracted to women and queer issues in general, but because I was once madly in love with her, it's not such a hot idea to bring up how much I am still into women too often, because our friendship has taken very long to recover from that teenage mess and we'd rather not disturb the way things are now. (And of course I still have feelings for her. They don't hurt anybody any more and even if I were single and she were willing, I would not start a relationship with her because we would just tear each other to pieces and besides, we have radically different lifestyles that aren't compatible. But I still have feelings. Mostly happy feelings, loving unselfish feelings, but not feelings I think we'd both be comfortable discussing because of our history).

Aside from these two people, nobody knows I am not straight. My family, although for the most part perfectly okay with other gay family members and supportive of pro-gay legislation and equal rights, doesn't seem to want to know. And I think I'd find it really hard to explain to them the way my life is now. If I had a girlfriend, sure, I'd just present her and that would be that and I don't think anyone important to me would make a fuss, but I don't and I don't want people to think I am planning on breaking up with my partner, because that's really the last thing on my mind.

I think with other women, my main concern is, am I creepy. Is it wrong for me to look at women and admire them in a not-entirely-plantonic way when they don't suspect anyone is looking at them like that because there are no men around. I know I wouldn't mind if I were the one being looked at by another girl, heck, I'd probably be flattered, but my prior experiences have taught me that an alarming number of women think lesbians are scary and / or icky.

To give you another concrete example besides my colleagues: There's this bakery in town and one of the girls who works there is extremely, extraordinarily pretty. Sometimes, when I've had a shitty day, I just go there and stand in line for a while and linger and enjoy her presence. She just radiates beauty and kindness and tranquility. I enjoy the smell of fresh bread and the light shining on her hair and how nice and patient she is with the old ladies counting out their money. I finally buy something form her and smile and go away. It makes me happy. But is this okay? Isn't it a bit like those dirty old men who hang around the local swimming pool and ogle the female bathers? And the poor woman is at work, she can't go away if it should make her uncomfortable and she has to be polite because she's working behind a counter. That's the kind of stuff I am mostly worried about.

So, it's sounding like you could do with more people in your life who you can share queer stuff with. That's a pretty common, and basic, need: to have some people who share some aspects of ourself and our experiences. Anyone's options for that are really
- share more with appropriate people already in our life
- seek out some more queer folk and/or queer communities
and any combination of the two.

Might your best friend be someone you could talk more with? I understand that any feelings you have for her might be best left well alone, but that's a very separate thing from any feelings you have about your orientation in general, or from any attraction you feel to anyone else. It's a piece of homophobia, really, that queer folk will be automatically attracted to Everybody of our own gender. That's clearly coming up for you in the concerns you have about how other people will feel, too - I'm so sorry that you had those homophobic experiences. It's wrong and unfair for people to be uncomfortable just because we're a queer person near them. It's never wrong or creepy for anyone to have any feelings or attractions. I think there's a Reason humans can't mind-read: we all have all kinds of thoughts, all the time, that'd be inappropriate (and often irrelevant and fleeting, too) for other people to know. Our brains are our private space, and that's okay. We just want to watch how our behaviour affects others, is all. You seem pretty concerned for others, so I'd reckon it's unlikely that you're behaving in any way that'd bother or worry them. It's okay to just enjoy someone's presence and self! You're right to be especially conscious that someone's in their work environment and required to be polite to customers; again, that awareness and care for them is likely to keep you within bounds and not cause them to feel harassed or imposed on. I do think, too, that the way we're thinking about someone can make a difference: people who are basically ogling body-parts sometimes don't act as if there's a person in the body, and that comes across, and folk on the receiving end feel quite rightly dehumanised (and maybe scared, or grossed out, or etc..) You're describing appreciating the whole person, being very aware that it's a person you're having feelings about and interacting with, and that does make a difference to how the interest comes over, if/when it does.

By the by, the difficulties bi people face in mixed-orientation relationships - especially with straight folk - came up elsewhere just the other day in a different context. You're very far from alone in having some feelings about that, and those feelings don't say anything bad about you or about your relationship or your partner. It's natural to wish sometimes that someone we're very close to could share some very core feelings and experiences we have, no matter how close or wonderful they are in other ways. And, of course being bi or being more publicly bi doesn't mean you'd want to leave your relationship. it's just an unfortunate biphobic idea that floats around the world that we might always want someone "else" or "more" or "different". There are plenty of bi folk who are committed and/or monogamous.

Per the second option above - seeking out more queer folk and/or communities - I've suggested that a couple of times, and I notice you not seeming to really take that up. Of course, that's completely up to you, whether you feel like it's something you want to do or can do or not. I just want to check in whether you're feeling any barriers about that that anyone could help you with?

Redskies wrote:Per the second option above - seeking out more queer folk and/or communities - I've suggested that a couple of times, and I notice you not seeming to really take that up. Of course, that's completely up to you, whether you feel like it's something you want to do or can do or not. I just want to check in whether you're feeling any barriers about that that anyone could help you with?

Sorry, it's super frustrating when you give people good advice and they just seem to ignore it, I know...

Thanks for the links you gave me, btw, those posts were good to read. Amazing how many women are in a similar situation! If I am going to seek out more queer spaces, they will have to be online. I don't think there's any place specifically to meet with queer people in person and discuss these kinds of issues within an hour's drive from where I live. My best friend lives quite far away from me these days. She couldn't wait to get out of here, which is totally understandable. You might wonder why I stayed... This might sound really weird considering what I've said so far about the area where I am, but I like it here. I like living in the country. I like being alone a lot. I am a shy person who loves home and this is my home. So I stayed. Besides, I found work here.

Thank you again for taking so much time to talk to me and discuss things in depth. I really appreciate it!