Does this count... or am I just overreacting?

[MusicNerd]

hey! so, a couple days ago, I had some pretty scary flashbacks to some things I didn't even realize until recently my mind had deeply suppressed for a very long time.

essentially, when I was a little kid, a member of my family used to guilt-trip me into going along with his weird displays of affection towards me (I'd rather not say who right now, because I just feel too disgusted by all this)-- as in, he used to do weird things like kiss my neck (and not like by-accident either-- he said it was his way of "expressing love" because it "felt good to you"). and whenever I'd flinch, he would question me about it, and I would tell him I didn't want him to do that and how I just wanted a hug instead. sometimes my body would react to things like neck-kisses, and I would feel gross about it afterwards.

other times, he would say things like how, "if i were one of the boys in your class, i would definitely be in love with you," and as i got older, sometimes he would pinch my butt and talk about my figure, and say/do other weird things like that. he finally stopped when i got old enough to learn how to more harshly verbalize my boundaries a bit more strongly. but even then, every now and then he would do things like randomly kiss my shoulder, and I'd flinch in surprise and tell him to cut it out, and he'd be like, "jeez, if this is how you are to me, what're you gonna be like in a relationship?" and i got so angry that i barked back, "well, obviously i'm not gonna be in a relationship with you, so that shouldn't be any of your concern now should it?" he hasn't done any more of this stuff to me in the past 2-3 years, but that's also probably due to the fact that I don't live at-home anymore.

another thing that's been on my mind since remembering all this is that: I'm not sure if anyone I'm interested in would want anything to do with me knowing this person, this family member, used to do these things to me. like, I told one of my friends, who was super-supportive and understanding, and that's basically the only person I've told. and i also wonder now, like, since people I've gone out with in the past have done things while we're making out, like kissing my neck, and I really enjoy it when they have... do I only enjoy it because of what happened to me when I was a kid? it just makes me really upset to think that that could be the case. but another part of me also wants to stay open to romantic/sexual relationships, because some part of me wants to keep fighting to prove that his disregard for my boundaries can't take away the relationships I want in life. idk if I'm making any sense, I know this is probably just one giant ramble.

so, idk if any of this counts as sexual abuse or anything like that, and there were other things too that I don't feel like going into, but... all I know is it makes me feel really weird and gross and ashamed. I was literally shaking and puking after I had the flashbacks, and idk maybe I'm just overreacting about all this.

I'm gonna be starting to see a therapist soon (once their practice matches me with someone based on the criteria I laid out for them), but I'm kinda scared that she'll see these things I'm describing as me overreacting because this person never touched my genitals, or that she'll think I'm trying to start trouble or something like that. I don't even know anymore.

[Karyn]

Hi MusicNerd.

First off, I don't think you're overreacting. This person's behaviour sounds completely inappropriate, and they clearly do not/did not respect your boundaries, which is a big deal on its own: it's not surprising you feel weird and gross about it. Too, please know that sexual abuse does not have to involve anyone's genitals to be abuse, and whatever therapist you end up seeing should know that.

Per your concerns about potential future partners, it's pretty common for people who've experienced abuse of any kind to have those concerns, to wonder whether someone who's interested in you will change their mind after hearing about abuse. As much as I wish I could, I can't promise you that you will never experience that, but hopefully with time you'll be able to really know (not just in a sort of intellectual, these are the facts way but in a "yes this is the TRUTH and I feel 110% certain of that" way) that a) this doesn't make you any less worthy as a person and b) anyone who feels otherwise is someone who isn't going to be a great romantic or sexual partner to you and isn't someone you want in your life. The friend you told who was super-supportive and understanding? THAT, and nothing less than that, is the response you deserve from absolutely everyone.

It's also quite common for survivors to wonder what kind of effects abuse has had on their sexuality in terms of what they like or don't like, and it can be tough to untangle: sexuality is so very complex. It sucks to think that someone who treated you badly could have shaped something so personal that's supposed to be positive, and it isn't unusual to feel like sexual abuse has sort of 'hijacked' your sexuality, for lack of a better term. A therapist is probably the best person to talk to about that, but if you like I can also leave a note for some of our other staff who might be better placed than me to advise you on how to manage those feelings until you can see a therapist.

All that said, what do you think you need from us right now? How can we help you?

[MusicNerd]

hey Karyn, thanks so much for responding!

First off, I don't think you're overreacting. This person's behaviour sounds completely inappropriate, and they clearly do not/did not respect your boundaries, which is a big deal on its own: it's not surprising you feel weird and gross about it. Too, please know that sexual abuse does not have to involve anyone's genitals to be abuse, and whatever therapist you end up seeing should know that.

yeah, that's very true. yeah, I guess I just have to remind myself that it's not okay to have had my boundaries disregarded over all those years.

Per your concerns about potential future partners, it's pretty common for people who've experienced abuse of any kind to have those concerns, to wonder whether someone who's interested in you will change their mind after hearing about abuse. As much as I wish I could, I can't promise you that you will never experience that, but hopefully with time you'll be able to really know (not just in a sort of intellectual, these are the facts way but in a "yes this is the TRUTH and I feel 110% certain of that" way) that a) this doesn't make you any less worthy as a person and b) anyone who feels otherwise is someone who isn't going to be a great romantic or sexual partner to you and isn't someone you want in your life. The friend you told who was super-supportive and understanding? THAT, and nothing less than that, is the response you deserve from absolutely everyone.

mm, yeah... I guess it is important to not only know that this experience doesn't make me "any less worthy" of love/sex/relationships/etc.... and also, that yeah, it is important to know that my friend's reaction should be the norm and what I deserve-- so, thanks for saying that. <3

It's also quite common for survivors to wonder what kind of effects abuse has had on their sexuality in terms of what they like or don't like, and it can be tough to untangle: sexuality is so very complex. It sucks to think that someone who treated you badly could have shaped something so personal that's supposed to be positive, and it isn't unusual to feel like sexual abuse has sort of 'hijacked' your sexuality, for lack of a better term. A therapist is probably the best person to talk to about that, but if you like I can also leave a note for some of our other staff who might be better placed than me to advise you on how to manage those feelings until you can see a therapist.

All that said, what do you think you need from us right now? How can we help you?

idk, I guess just someone to talk with about these different feelings I'm having? or maybe some ideas about support groups I could join regarding sexual abuse? though, I suppose those things are meant for a therapist, but idk. or even some ideas on books/articles that talk about moving on from sexual abuse would also be pretty helpful, too.

[Sam W]

Hi Musicnerd,

We can certainly help get you started on finding the support that's going to work best for you. You're right that a therapist or counselor would be the best place to start working through these feelings. If you are seeing one or have seen one in the past, is this something you'd be okay discussing with them? And if you haven't seen one before, do you have any sense of what kind of mental health resources you currently have access to?

You could also look into local resources for survivors of sexual abuse. Sometimes those are stand alone resources, but they're often connected to a rape crisis organization. Too, it's helpful to think about what you're looking for from that resource. Would you want to see if they offered one on one counseling, or would you be more interested in going to a group?

In terms of other resources, you're certainly more than welcome to keep using the boards here (and the main site, of course). Some of the older threads between us and other survivors might offer you some insight. You're also free to make a post asking for advice or thoughts from other users who've gone through sexual abuse. Another online resource is Pandora's Project, which is made for survivors of sexual abuse and assault. I've also had clients in the past recommend a book called "The Courage to Heal" as something that helped them work through their feelings, so that could be worth exploring as well.

[Redskies]

Hi, MusicNerd. I'd definitely be happy to be one of the people here to talk with you about how you're feeling; as you asked about support groups, perhaps you might also like to know that I'm a survivor of childhood sexual abuse by a family member, so there's definitely a strong element of peer-counselling from me on this subject.

If you'd like to look at an online community and support group, we often recommend Pandys: http://www.pandys.org/ . Many people (although of course not all) find it very helpful to talk with and listen to other people who are at a similar stage of working through things. If you'd like something in-person and you'd like our help finding something, we'd be happy to pitch in there too, just let us know.

We can definitely make suggestions for resources! I'll put this post up first, then gather you a few book titles. You may well also find some of the things on Pandys helpful - they're very good as a place.

Regarding your upcoming therapist, if you feel like this is a topic you'd also want to discuss with a therapist (sounds like it may well be), I'd suggest contacting the place where you're waiting and asking that the therapist they give you should also have training/experience around childhood sexual abuse (if you haven't already). That makes it more likely that you'll get someone with the appropriate background to help you best.

Really, no therapist or counsellor should be blowing off what you've said here, or telling you you're over-reacting. If they did?- that'd mean they're wrong and not up to the job of working with this. They wouldn't be right. I know it's scary that someone might say or think that, and it's horrible if it happens (I know from experience), but I want to say: even if that happened, you'll be okay. You already have the sense that that family member was behaving wrongly, and you already have at least one place - us - who've got your back. No matter if you stumbled into one or two people who weren't suitable for this kind of help, you'll be okay, and you'll be able to find the right person, people or place for the right support.

Like Karyn said, it's super-clear that this family member was stomping all over your personal boundaries - deliberately - and it's not surprising that'd give you challenging feelings. In the whole picture of what you've said, I also get the strong sense that this person's behaviour was sexualised. So, yes, I want to validate the feelings that you're having now and that it sounds like you were having at the time, that something was up.

Some of the things you're describing are very familiar to me as common things that child/young person sexual abuse survivors describe about an abuser's behaviour. An abuser "explaining" or "justifying" (yes, those are scare-quotes) their actions to the child/yp by saying that it's how they personally, or people generally, express love; telling the child/yp that it feels good to the child/yp; saying/implying that their behaviour is like a relationship, or is something the child/yp needs to do in order to learn about relationships or be better in relationships.

It's very common for someone's body to respond physically to physical or sexual stimulus, even when they didn't want it, felt afraid, or compelled, or ambivalent. It doesn't mean that we liked it, and our body's response is nothing to be ashamed of. If a comparison helps, the nearest is probably when someone taps below your knee with a little hammer: the automatic response doesn't say anything about you or your body, it just is.

I'm so sorry that you're feeling gross and ashamed. I know that my saying this won't make those feelings go away, but please know that you have nothing to feel gross or ashamed about. The wrongness in this situation is 100% about someone else's behaviour, and absolutely zero to do with you. I'm very glad that you've felt able to talk with a friend, and to tell us what you have: being able to tell safe, supportive people is usually a big, big move towards being able to shed some of the shame that wasn't truly yours to carry in the first place. Too, we understand that you're not ready or able to say or share some things, and that's absolutely okay. Whatever feels safe and right for you.

I viscerally understand the feeling of shame and that maybe no-one else would want you if they knew. I know that that feeling doesn't go away straight away, but to give you an image of how it might in time, of where the truth really is: I don't imagine you feel that about anyone else who's been abused. Knowing that you know a bit about abuse in general, I'm guessing you feel that someone else who was abused is just as loveable, just as desirable. You are too. In a real-world sense, if someone bails because of information like this, it's because they feel ill-equipped to navigate it, not because there's anything wrong with us. There's nothing wrong with us We just happened to be unfortunate enough to be around someone who wanted to behave in those ways.

[MusicNerd]

Thanks for responding, Sam and Redskies-- I'm gonna make two posts so that this won't get too confusing in my responses.

Hi Musicnerd,

We can certainly help get you started on finding the support that's going to work best for you. You're right that a therapist or counselor would be the best place to start working through these feelings. If you are seeing one or have seen one in the past, is this something you'd be okay discussing with them? And if you haven't seen one before, do you have any sense of what kind of mental health resources you currently have access to?

I have seen a therapist before, and it was actually someone who worked at the practice I recently reached out to, so I have somewhat of an idea of what they offer there. I also know that some of their therapists specialize in talking about sexual abuse, and I asked them to screen for that when I called them a few days ago.

You could also look into local resources for survivors of sexual abuse. Sometimes those are stand alone resources, but they're often connected to a rape crisis organization. Too, it's helpful to think about what you're looking for from that resource. Would you want to see if they offered one on one counseling, or would you be more interested in going to a group?

well, since I'm planning on seeing a therapist soon (whenever the practice gets back to me), I'd probably be more interested in finding a support group to go to outside of therapy sessions. I'm just not sure where exactly I'd find that for childhood survivors in my city.

In terms of other resources, you're certainly more than welcome to keep using the boards here (and the main site, of course). Some of the older threads between us and other survivors might offer you some insight. You're also free to make a post asking for advice or thoughts from other users who've gone through sexual abuse. Another online resource is Pandora's Project, which is made for survivors of sexual abuse and assault. I've also had clients in the past recommend a book called "The Courage to Heal" as something that helped them work through their feelings, so that could be worth exploring as well.

okay, I'll definitely look into the other threads + that book and resource you mentioned. thanks, Sam!

[Sam W]

You're welcome! I'm so glad to hear you reached out, and that you're advocating for yourself by asking them to place you with someone who has a background in working with sexual abuse issues.

As far as finding a group goes, the counselor you get hooked up with may know of one in the area. Or, a local sexual assault survivors resource may know if there are groups that you could join (you can usually call them and ask, you don't need to go in and meet with anyone).

[MusicNerd]

Hi, MusicNerd. I'd definitely be happy to be one of the people here to talk with you about how you're feeling; as you asked about support groups, perhaps you might also like to know that I'm a survivor of childhood sexual abuse by a family member, so there's definitely a strong element of peer-counselling from me on this subject.

Hey Redskies, thanks so much, I really appreciate it. also, I'm really sorry you too have gone through something like this.

If you'd like to look at an online community and support group, we often recommend Pandys: http://www.pandys.org/ . Many people (although of course not all) find it very helpful to talk with and listen to other people who are at a similar stage of working through things. If you'd like something in-person and you'd like our help finding something, we'd be happy to pitch in there too, just let us know.

We can definitely make suggestions for resources! I'll put this post up first, then gather you a few book titles. You may well also find some of the things on Pandys helpful - they're very good as a place.

okay thanks, I'll check them out! yeah, I'd like to be able to meet with a group in-person that deals with this kind of thing, and I actually just remembered a place in my city that even deals with people who've gone through sexual abuse even in their childhood. but idk, some part of me thinks that maybe I don't qualify because it wasn't bad enough and other people have gone through worse things. that could also just be my fears talking though, i'm not sure anymore.

Regarding your upcoming therapist, if you feel like this is a topic you'd also want to discuss with a therapist (sounds like it may well be), I'd suggest contacting the place where you're waiting and asking that the therapist they give you should also have training/experience around childhood sexual abuse (if you haven't already). That makes it more likely that you'll get someone with the appropriate background to help you best.

yeah, I know that they have therapists there who deal with sexual abuse, but I'm not sure if any of them specifically deal with childhood sexual abuse. I could call them tomorrow and see if that's something they could take into account in their matching process.

Really, no therapist or counsellor should be blowing off what you've said here, or telling you you're over-reacting. If they did?- that'd mean they're wrong and not up to the job of working with this. They wouldn't be right. I know it's scary that someone might say or think that, and it's horrible if it happens (I know from experience), but I want to say: even if that happened, you'll be okay. You already have the sense that that family member was behaving wrongly, and you already have at least one place - us - who've got your back. No matter if you stumbled into one or two people who weren't suitable for this kind of help, you'll be okay, and you'll be able to find the right person, people or place for the right support.

Like Karyn said, it's super-clear that this family member was stomping all over your personal boundaries - deliberately - and it's not surprising that'd give you challenging feelings. In the whole picture of what you've said, I also get the strong sense that this person's behaviour was sexualised. So, yes, I want to validate the feelings that you're having now and that it sounds like you were having at the time, that something was up.

damn, I didn't realize just how much I needed to hear all that. thank you so much, really.

Some of the things you're describing are very familiar to me as common things that child/young person sexual abuse survivors describe about an abuser's behaviour. An abuser "explaining" or "justifying" (yes, those are scare-quotes) their actions to the child/yp by saying that it's how they personally, or people generally, express love; telling the child/yp that it feels good to the child/yp; saying/implying that their behaviour is like a relationship, or is something the child/yp needs to do in order to learn about relationships or be better in relationships.

It's very common for someone's body to respond physically to physical or sexual stimulus, even when they didn't want it, felt afraid, or compelled, or ambivalent. It doesn't mean that we liked it, and our body's response is nothing to be ashamed of. If a comparison helps, the nearest is probably when someone taps below your knee with a little hammer: the automatic response doesn't say anything about you or your body, it just is.

huh... I knew that involuntary physical responses were a thing (which sadly is gonna take some time for me to not feel so disgusted by that happening), but I didn't realize that a lot of the "justifying" and whatnot was such a common part of this. damn, that's messed up... it's even more messed up, because i had another family member make excuses for this person's behavior, too, even though she didn't know the full extent of it (at least, I don't think she knew).

I'm so sorry that you're feeling gross and ashamed. I know that my saying this won't make those feelings go away, but please know that you have nothing to feel gross or ashamed about. The wrongness in this situation is 100% about someone else's behaviour, and absolutely zero to do with you. I'm very glad that you've felt able to talk with a friend, and to tell us what you have: being able to tell safe, supportive people is usually a big, big move towards being able to shed some of the shame that wasn't truly yours to carry in the first place. Too, we understand that you're not ready or able to say or share some things, and that's absolutely okay. Whatever feels safe and right for you.

thanks so much for saying all that, seriously it means a lot to me. tbh, I'm just pretty scared of what else my mind might reveal to me the more treatment I get-- like, this was bad enough to have to remember just because of some random thing in the news that set me off, and I'm scared of what else is in there.

I viscerally understand the feeling of shame and that maybe no-one else would want you if they knew. I know that that feeling doesn't go away straight away, but to give you an image of how it might in time, of where the truth really is: I don't imagine you feel that about anyone else who's been abused. Knowing that you know a bit about abuse in general, I'm guessing you feel that someone else who was abused is just as loveable, just as desirable. You are too. In a real-world sense, if someone bails because of information like this, it's because they feel ill-equipped to navigate it, not because there's anything wrong with us. There's nothing wrong with us We just happened to be unfortunate enough to be around someone who wanted to behave in those ways.

yeah, you're definitely spot-on about the fact that I don't negatively judge others who've been through abuse themselves, and I do in fact think they're just as lovable, desirable, insert-other-positive-adjective-here as anyone else. yeah, it's def gonna take some treatment and time to fully feel the truth in that.

[Mo]

Sadly I think some people are so reluctant or ill-equipped to deal with the knowledge that a family member is abusive that they choose to make excuses, ignore the facts, or choose to believe that the victim is lying or exaggerating in order to avoid having to deal with the truth.
Whatever the reason, I'm sorry you had a family member make excuses for the abuse; whether or not they knew the full extent of it, it's pretty bad to be dismissive and minimize the effects of something that's obviously causing distress.

About the group you found in your area - there's really no bar of "minimum misery" you have to meet to be able to go to a group like that. I'd bet the people running that support group want to help as many people as they can. It's ok to use the resources that exist even if you didn't have the worst possible experience! I know that when I volunteered for a rape crisis line there were times when it was quiet and all the volunteers would say things like "we know that assaults are happening, we know people who don't think their experience was bad enough to use our service, but we want to help them; I wish those people would feel comfortable giving us a call."
This isn't to try and push you into going if you aren't sure you want to - but if it is something that you think might help, I'd encourage you to give it a try and not hold back because you think your experience doesn't count or wasn't bad enough. If it's impacting your life, if it's causing you distress, then yes - it does count and you deserve to have the support you need.

[MusicNerd]

Sadly I think some people are so reluctant or ill-equipped to deal with the knowledge that a family member is abusive that they choose to make excuses, ignore the facts, or choose to believe that the victim is lying or exaggerating in order to avoid having to deal with the truth.
Whatever the reason, I'm sorry you had a family member make excuses for the abuse; whether or not they knew the full extent of it, it's pretty bad to be dismissive and minimize the effects of something that's obviously causing distress.

yeah, I guess you have a point there, that's probably why it was dismissed.

About the group you found in your area - there's really no bar of "minimum misery" you have to meet to be able to go to a group like that. I'd bet the people running that support group want to help as many people as they can. It's ok to use the resources that exist even if you didn't have the worst possible experience! I know that when I volunteered for a rape crisis line there were times when it was quiet and all the volunteers would say things like "we know that assaults are happening, we know people who don't think their experience was bad enough to use our service, but we want to help them; I wish those people would feel comfortable giving us a call."
This isn't to try and push you into going if you aren't sure you want to - but if it is something that you think might help, I'd encourage you to give it a try and not hold back because you think your experience doesn't count or wasn't bad enough. If it's impacting your life, if it's causing you distress, then yes - it does count and you deserve to have the support you need.

wow, I never thought that that was something that was talked about on the other end of a crisis line... that really puts things into perspective for me tbh.... but yeah, you definitely have a point there with, "If it's impacting your life, if it's causing you distress, then yes - it does count and you deserve to have the support you need." that's definitely true, and it's definitely impacting my emotional and mental well-being. hmm, maybe I'll reach out to them after I start seeing a therapist (which will hopefully be soon-- i'm calling up the practice tomorrow to follow up with them about something anyway).

thanks Mo (and really, to everyone who responded to this thread, thanks again!), I really needed to hear/read all that you wrote.

[Sam W]

Hi Musicnerd,

So glad this thread has been helpful! I want to add to what Mo said. I ran a support group for survivors this past year, and there was a wide variety of experiences that brought people to that group. The policy of the group was to treat everyone's experiences as equally valid and in need of support. In fact, one of the guidelines for the group was to not compare your trauma or healing to anyone else, because the group wasn't about who had suffered the most. It was about finding community and support, and helping each other heal.

Like Mo said, this isn't to pressure you into going to certain resources. But I wanted to demonstrate that most resources for survivors know how much variation there is in terms of experiences. And they'd much rather have someone reach out for help around something than have them not do so because they feel their experience doesn't "count."

[MusicNerd]

Hi Musicnerd,

So glad this thread has been helpful! I want to add to what Mo said. I ran a support group for survivors this past year, and there was a wide variety of experiences that brought people to that group. The policy of the group was to treat everyone's experiences as equally valid and in need of support. In fact, one of the guidelines for the group was to not compare your trauma or healing to anyone else, because the group wasn't about who had suffered the most. It was about finding community and support, and helping each other heal.

Like Mo said, this isn't to pressure you into going to certain resources. But I wanted to demonstrate that most resources for survivors know how much variation there is in terms of experiences. And they'd much rather have someone reach out for help around something than have them not do so because they feel their experience doesn't "count."

hey Sam, thanks for that. no, I definitely didn't get the sense that y'all were trying to pressure me into going to different resources or anything like that, so no worries there!

I really like that guideline tbh, that seems super applicable to a lot of spaces I've been in honestly. but okay, I'll try and muster up the courage to see them at some point.