Not sure

[Tigger1]

Hi
This is probably going to come out a bit jumbled but that's kinda how my head is right now!
Ok so I've been talking about not feeling ready for sex, I also spoke about how I had feeling for this guy.
Well we were on a 6hr cross country car drive the other day and he starting making conversations about us sleeping together whilst we were away. I told him, I was still a virgin and SO not up for sleeping with him or anyone right now or in the near future, (yep actually stood up for what I was feeling!) so anyway I changed the subject to the massive meeting we were heading to and the atmosphere got a little less serious.
we checked into the hotel that we were both staying in and headed to the meeting, it went really really well.
After the meeting we headed to a bar for a drink (I don't drink very often at all but we were celebrating) we only stayed for two drinks. back to the hotel we were in the lift when he kissed me, I was kissing him back but decided to stop it all in its tracks,
We ended up in my room for a debrief (yes probably not the best idea but the hotel had no lobby, no bar, no restaurant, no nothing)
After a good hour of debriefing and phone calls, he started kissing me again and yer I was kissing him back. It all got intense very quickly and fairly heated. I repeated my earlier statement of 'I'm not ready for sex yet, please understand that' to which he replied 'no problems'
After making out for a bit, I'm not entirely sure how but my trousers were undone and he was fingering me, it's all a bit sketchy, I remember my mind saying 'god no stop' my heart saying 'no, no, no' but my body was saying 'HECK YER!!' I experience something that I feel might of been an orgasm, BUT I'm not entirely sure if words actually came out of my mouth at this time!! I honestly can't remember.......all I know is I woke up in the morning without him and I'm not sure what else happened if anything. We drove to our next destination that day without anything at all being mentioned, I didn't feel like I could ask!

So my questions on this are! Not in any order of relevance though!

1) can your body react if your not there in mind/spirit.

2) how without asking him can I know if words actually came out of my mouth or will I just never know

3) do you know when you orgasm, I'm not entirely sure if it was a big o or something of an almost or nothing

4) where do I go from here?

Thanks, sorry it's so long and jumbled up.

[Sam W]

Hi Tigger,

To answer your first question, it does happen that someone can totally not want sex but their body still reacts to the physical stimuli (sometimes you'll hear rape survivors talk about feeling "betrayed" by their bodies during the assault). Our bodies can respond to physical touch when our brains (and mouths) are saying no, but ultimately it's what our brains and mouths were doing/saying that matters in terms of consent.

My concern from your description is that it doesn't sound like he asked before fingering you, and that you did not want that when it happened. In fact, it sounds a like he ignored the fact that you said you were not ready for any sex and kept pushing. That, plus the fact that you were under the influence (and enough so that it sounds like you have a hard time remembering certain things that happened) is setting off some alarm bells for me. How are you feeling right now about what happened?

Also, it sounds like you two work together (and correct me if I'm wrong on that). Is he like a co-worker or is one of you the boss of the other?

[Tigger1]

Hi,
Thanks for getting back to me. In one of my other posts I've mainly been talking to Heather about not feeling at all ready for any of this stuff and was given a few links to read and over time become more aware of sex and sexuality. I also mentioned that I had feelings for this guy of a sexual kind and as stated did feel pressured to kind of play catch up with sex etc BUT after talking to Heather and co about it all realised that I wasn't ready, far from it in fact and that I need time to think it all through. I accept that and was looking forward to gaining more info and reading the links you guys provided me with TBH before going any further with anything, realised that even given my age it doesn't make me a loser for not wanting to!
But obviously this guy has other plans. No I don't remember giving permission to do what he did. I was quiet happy just making out TBH.
Am feeling confused, anxious and fairly angry at the moment.
Due in part because I let myself get into a situation, did I lead him on?
It's not the first time I've had debriefings with other blokes in hotel rooms, it's part of our job. D there is no other location then it's just easier sometimes. (most of the guys I work with I'm fairly good friends with and usually it isn't an issue!)
Did I Make it not clear enough? I thought I'd made myself clear but obviously not.
We work together 2-3days a week, then I work 2-3 days a week with another guy who is just like my big brother.
We are suppose to be a working team with me in a slightly senior role. Have been working with this guy for a little while now, not I will say the first time we have been stuck in a room together.

[Sam W]

I think all of those feelings are totally understandable. I would actually say you did the opposite of leading him on. You were very explicit that you were not ready for sex, and said so multiple times. He made the choice to push beyond what you were comfortable with without asking for your consent, which is really not okay (let's say you had actually wanted to go further. The way for him to have known that was to ask you, not to assume). The way this situation looks from where I am sitting is that you were clear, but he chose to act as though you were not (and even if we give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he thought he was doing what you wanted, he still needed to ask for your consent before doing it). There's also the fact that you were there for work, so he can't really fall back on the fact that you were alone with him as a sign that you wanted sex.

Since it sounds like the way you work is structured means you might be alone with him again in the near future, how does the thought of that make you feel?

[Tigger1]

Hi,

Generally anxious to be honest, I don't want to be put in a situation like this ever again. I have asked my P.A. to locate places with restaurants or cafes within the hotels from now on, basically just said I didn't like staying somewhere I couldn't get a cup of coffee in the mornings (long standing joke about how much coffee I drink, helped to defuse the questions) so she is doing that today. I'm suppose to be in the road with him again next week for 3 days.
I think some of the anxiety i am feeling is because I'm not entirely sure it all stopped where I think it stopped, where I remember stuff happening anyway. I haven't a clue. Also anxious about what happened and how and just trying to figure out what I did so wrong.
Just playing the events I remember over and over in my head to figure it all out.
I don't want to make a bigger deal out of this than it is, if you know what I mean. People have far far worse happen to them.

[Heather]

I don't want you to be put in a situation like this again, either! I was so sorry to read these posts, Tigger: what happened here was just not okay, and I'm so sorry that it did.

Please know that this doesn't sound like you have done anything wrong here. Like Sam said, you were incredibly clear about your boundaries. The wrongdoing here was on the part of this guy, who overstepped them.

I don't find it helpful, when trying to process any kind of traumatic event, to put it in a cagematch with the trauma of others. It's not like you processing your life experiences for yourself steps on anyone else doing that with theirs, after all. The impact something has on you is about you and that experience, not about someone else and theirs. Know what I mean?

So, where would you like to take this from here in terms of talking with us? I'm around for the next hour or so on the boards, and would be happy to talk with you about:
• What you can do in terms of your own safety when it comes to this kind of general work situation or with this guy, period, moving forward
• What you can do in the event you want to make any kind of report about this at work or otherwise
• How you're feeling, emotionally, and how to process and make peace with some of those feelings that are in conflict
• How consenting SHOULD go (that one big piece I gave you about consent is also there for you for this) to both validate that you didn't do anything wrong here and for the future
• How to deal with feeling or having felt sexual desire for someone that has turned out to be a shitty someone, in a word
• Or anything else you want to talk about

[Tigger1]

Hi Heather,

Thanks again for being around. And thanks Sam for your help!! It's really nice of you guys to let me offload! I'm not entirely sure how I'm feeling right now, just let down I guess! In myself and him. I finally stood up for myself in regard to not wanting to do anymore than just kissing a guy and then my body went against me. I feel like my body has let me down for wanting something my head and my heart didn't. Im trying really really hard to remember the bits I can't figure out but it's driving me insane, I don't want to ask him what happened after what I remember, to be honest I never want to see him again as long as I live but that's not possible due to work.
I was so happy to have my feeling validated in relation to not doing anything that I didn't want to do and just giving myself time and that's it's actually OK to hold off as long as I want to and now well who the hell knows! Having my first sexual interest in someone and then to feel like this is just well to put it politely...rubbish!!
I'm just in this non sort of state where I'm not really feeling anything properly to be honest. Oh I dunno!
Shoulda, woulda, coulda and all that. I shouldn't have kissed him, I shouldn't of made that bit ok so then the rest wouldn't have happened. Woulda stopped myself from drinking if I had known what would of come out of it. Could of remembered stuff better if I hadn't of be drinking maybe....

[Heather]

So, looking at this, can I say a few things about this:

I feel like my body has let me down for wanting something my head and my heart didn't. Im trying really really hard to remember the bits I can't figure out but it's driving me insane, I don't want to ask him what happened after what I remember, to be honest I never want to see him again as long as I live but that's not possible due to work.

And this:

I shouldn't have kissed him, I shouldn't of made that bit ok so then the rest wouldn't have happened. Woulda stopped myself from drinking if I had known what would of come out of it. Could of remembered stuff better if I hadn't of be drinking maybe...

I feel like I can say some things about these bits that might be helpful to you both in processing this and in figuring out what you can practically do from here when it comes to seeing or not seeing this guy, or what half-steps you can take there if not seeing him isn't an option without leaving your job.

[Tigger1]

Ok thanks

[Heather]

I'll start from the bottom up, with this:

I shouldn't have kissed him, I shouldn't of made that bit ok so then the rest wouldn't have happened. Woulda stopped myself from drinking if I had known what would of come out of it. Could of remembered stuff better if I hadn't of be drinking maybe...

What I first want to do is give you an alternate scenario. HAD you kissed someone who didn't choose to do something sexual to you without your permission, what was done without your permission wouldn't have happened. Had you had a couple drinks with someone who didn't choose to do something sexual to you without your permission, what was done without your permission wouldn't have happened. Had you been drinking with someone who didn't choose to do sexual things to someone else who had been drinking, and understood that that really limits a person's ability to consent, there'd be nothing for you to try and remember.

In other words: see the common denominator here? It's NOT that you kissed someone, nor that you were drinking. It's that someone did something sexual to you without your permission. Without that someone in the mix, and that someone choosing to do that, this whole situation would have been radically different here. What this person did to you without your express consent isn't about what YOU did or didn't do: it's about what THEY chose to do TO you without your express permission.

The thing in the mix here that resulted in someone doing something sexual to you without your clear, express consent is THAT someone, not you.

In case it helps to be more clear: I can say for myself I have kissed an awful lot of people. I have also had drinks with an awful lot of people where there were sexual feelings on one or both sides, or where there was kissing I wanted. And the only times those things have resulted in any kind of sexual harassment, abuse or assault of me was when the other person chose to do those things. But the vast majority of those times, neither kissing nor drinking have resulted in that, and that's not about me doing anything different, it's about whoever I was with not choosing to do sexual things to me without my express permission, and not choosing to use things like drinking (nor taking advantage of my expressed lack of sexual experience, not my issue, but if it had been...) to take advantage of the situation sexually.

Make sense? I want to get into the other bits, too, but I want to see where this leaves you, first.

[Tigger1]

Yer that makes sense. Basically what your saying is that I'm not to blame here and that had it of been any other guy it wouldn't of worked out in the same way.
I just kinda think it's my fault.
But yes what your saying does make sense.

[Heather]

Just thought of another example in a totally different context that might help.

Back in the 90's, when I was still living in Chicago and drove a van, I was coming home very late at night after hanging out with friends. I drove down a major road to get there, and got stuck in a GIANT pothole. Because it was pre-mobile phone, because I was dead broke, because it was in the middle of the night, it was a pretty epic disaster.

I first went to the place where I made it all about MY apparent mistakes: if I didn't go that way, if I didn't go out that night, if I did have better insurance, if I wasn't so poor, and so on, I wouldn't have wound up there.

But the fact of the matter is that it wasn't about any of that: it was about the pothole, and the fact that I lived in a city that routinely let its roads go to hell and be full of potholes like that, potholes that city knew presented big dangers. SOMEONE was going to get stuck in that pothole. If not me, someone, and probably someone did before me, and probably someone did after me, too. If that pothole wasn't there, and it shouldn't have been, I would not have gotten stuck in it in the middle of the night, and then had to deal with all I did after.

People who choose to sexually abuse, assault or take advantage of people are a lot like that pothole: they are going to do those things to someone, and probably more than one someone (statistically speaking, one-offs with this stuff from someone are uncommon: it's more common for them to do it to more than one person). They're the problem, and they're the why of those things happening, because they're who chooses to do them. Without that person in the mix -- or someone else who also chooses to do that stuff to others -- those things can't happen.

It wasn't my fault there was a giant pothole in the road -- I didn't put it there, nor was it there due to my negligence at not keeping the roads safe -- nor my fault that merely by driving home, I was someone who wound up stuck in it. Just like it wasn't your fault you had the unfortunate bad luck to wind up in the company of a person who, from the sounds of things, clearly didn't care about getting express consent from someone able to give it to do what he did.

[Tigger1]

Yer that makes sense!

[Heather]

Great.

It will probably still take some time to sink in, of course. We live in a world much more inclined to blame the victim than the person -- or systems -- that actually does the thing that victimizes someone, so all of us have always internalized at least some of that, if not a lot. But hopefully, that at least gives you a place to start.

Give me a few here, and I'll have another response for you about those other bits I wanted to address. (I need more coffee first, it's still early over here on the west coast of the states! )

[Tigger1]

I hear the whole coffee thing!! It's mid afternoon here in uk and I'm on my tenth cup of coffee!! Haven't slept so need caffeine

[Heather]

I feel like my body has let me down for wanting something my head and my heart didn't.

It's a hard truth that our heads, hearts and bodies aren't always in alignment, and our bodies will often do things, or respond in ways, that don't match what we want in our heads and hearts, or don't respond in concert with how we're feeling or in ways we want.

For example, I have a chronic pain condition: my body does things all the time that aren't what I want, and that don't match how I feel: I can feel emotionally happy, and yet, my body still "acts" in ways that are anything but happy. I can do a ton of things that should prevent pain flare-ups, and yet, they sometimes don't, and I'm in pain no matter what I do, even when I do all the things a person possibly can to reduce or prevent pain.

And it's not easy to deal with, no matter what the situation or context. But I'd encourage you not to see how your body responded as letting you down. I don't think it did that, I just think that it was being a body. Bodies respond to stimulus, it's just what they do. But those responses aren't always reflections of our wants or our feelings, and that's not about them letting us down, it's just about them having their own systems -- and in the case with my pain condition, and what happened to you, we're talking about the neurological system -- that do what they do on their own separate from other systems sometimes, if you can follow that.

Im trying really really hard to remember the bits I can't figure out but it's driving me insane, I don't want to ask him what happened after what I remember, to be honest I never want to see him again as long as I live but that's not possible due to work.

It sounds to me like part of the problem with that is that you were intoxicated, which always makes memory difficult. Putting both trauma and sexual response on top of that adds more difficulty. I think you might just need to accept that you are probably not going to remember all of this if you don't already, even though I know that isn't easy to accept.

I would trust your feelings about not wanting to ask him, and would also add that him saying, "Well, what happened is that I did something to you without asking and when you were too intoxicated to give consent," would be highly unlikely, even though that sounds like what happened here. People who do this to other people are rarely going to cop to it, and I think the fact that he said nothing about it the next day is telling in the respect that it sounds like he knows this wasn't okay. After all, if it was, it seems to me that he would have at least said something like, "We work together, so how do you feel about last night? Is there anything we need to sort out between us so things don't get weird?" Know what I mean?

But I also think that it probably isn't emotionally safe for you to get into this with him beyond doing what you can to limit contact with him as much as possible, and, moving forward, to assure that you are not alone with him as much as you can. You certainly also can -- and I'd advise this if you feel able and it feels right to you -- to set another clear boundary that's something to the effect of, "I need to assure that moving forward, our only interactions are professional, and that you know our only relationship and interaction must be about work only. I also need to ask that whenever possible, we are not alone together, and the only rooms we are alone together in are safe places for me like an office. If we are on the road working and need to talk, I need to ask we only do so in public places like in restaurants or lobbies. If we are in the car alone together, I need your behaviour to be the kind you would have with, say, a male colleague who was your boss."

(Btw, some of this is probably also part and parcel of the kind of sexual harassment, in a word, many women unfortunately deal with when working with male co-workers, where some of them behave in ways they by no means would with their male co-workers. If you want to talk about that, we can, too.)

I have to pop out for a bit, but I'll be back in a couple hours, so can continue this with you if you'd like. On the other hand, it sounds like you need some sleep, so if you can get some, this all certainly can wait for another day once you've had some.

[Tigger1]

Hi Heather,
Thank you so much, I would like to talk about this further later today if your willing and able! I'm at work for about another 3hrs but then will be able to process things more clearly with you hopefully, am currently having to watch my back as he is with our group today.
Sleep is not my friend since this happened, it's kinda all I can think about!

Questions;
is this just sexual harassment then?
Am I making a bigger deal out of this than it is?
What if it did go further, how can I even attempt to comprehend losing my virginity in such a way?
Kinda feel a bit weird since that night. Physically I mean.

Thank you for allowing me to offload and for being compassionate!

[Heather]

You're welcome, and of course.

Per the sexual harassment, I don't see this as an either/or situation, but rather as more than one thing afoot. From what I can tell, this person has effectively sexually harassed you at work -- he kept bringing up sex with you in a work environment. And then he ALSO did something sexual to you without your express consent while you were also intoxicated: that's sexual assault.

How big a deal this is is really about how big a deal it is for YOU and how you feel about it, and you feel how you feel. If it feels very big and traumatic for you, then that's the size, as it were, that it is for you. If it didn't feel big or traumatic for you, then that would be it's size and scope. Know what I mean?

Virginity, and seeing it as a thing to keep, "give" or "lose," is an arbitrary and subjective framework. I can't speak to how you define and conceptualize it, only you can. But while it's not a framework that has ever worked for me, personally, or that I'm a big fan of, I know it's one a lot of people do.

That given, I'd suggest that however someone defines it, they only make it about consensual sex, about things they actually willingly choose, and are real agents in, not about anything someone else may do or has done without their express consent. To me, any kind of sex, if it's actually sex for everyone involved, must be consensual to BE sex: without consent, we're not talking about sex, at least not for anyone who didn't consent, we're talking about assault. I know speaking for myself, someone who was sexually abused and assaulted very early in life before I made those choices for myself, those things have nothing to do with my sexual life: they are outside things I do recognize as sexual milestones or sexual firsts (like I said, virginity as a framework has never been my bag for a bunch of reasons, but for those for whom it is, they usually see it as being about sexual milestones or firsts). Those things are things like the first time I chose to kiss someone else because we both wanted to be kissing, or first had kinds of genital sex with a partner that, again, we both wanted, that were actually about active, intended, and shared expressions of sexuality, not about victimization in any respect. Make sense?

[Tigger1]

Yer that makes sense I think. .......We are all heading into a meeting now. So if it is possible that we pick this up later today it would be helpful as do have other questions/feelings etc
Thanks again Heather

[Heather]

Sure thing. I'll be a bit spotty for the rest of the day -- racing to meet some deadlines -- but I will be checking on and off.

[Tigger1]

Hey, What a horrible day! Full of him smiling and winking at me from across a board room table! Far from pleasant! couldn't have a conversation with him today, too many people about and I'll be honest I just couldn't deal with it today! I've had a chance to re-read your comments and yes they do make sense to me.
For me this is a big deal, I didn't want this and it is affecting me.
As for work, my boss is male and i do not feel ready as of yet to talk this through with another male. If that make sense. I have found hotels for next week with restaurants attached so I won't have to be in the same bedroom as him alone. My job is my everything and I don't want to have to leave it.

I can't as of yet stop playing it over in my head, bits keep coming and bits keep going. Nor can I feel not somehow responsible for all of this (even though I do understand your comments)
Virginity to me hasn't really been about something I wanted to give to someone or whatever, I just wanted my first sexual experience to be pleasant and something I wanted and I know 100% I didn't want nor ask for this.

Emotionally I'm a mess, I put my trust in this guy, opened up to him and didn't expect this to happen, he's the first guy I've ever found I've had sexual feelings for and that in itself is a big deal for me and physically feeling weird.

[Heather]

I understand all of this. And I can't say how sorry I am he is clearly continuing to harass you at work. Honestly, this sounds really bad to me so far as someone behaving very unprofessionally and clearly not respecting boundaries. It even sounds like intentional intimidation.

By all means, like I said, it tends to take a while -- and that can be anything from days to years -- to let go of self-blame with anything like this. So, let yourself feel what you feel, cut yourself a break, and just do what you can to try and counter self-blame with gentle reminders that this wasn't your fault. They will sink in over time.

It might also help to understand that who we feel sexually attracted to, or who elicit feelings of desire in us, is not always about who's good or bad people. Our sexual feelings are chemical in so many ways, and neurochemistry basically doesn't filer out assholes when it comes to sexual desire (if only!).

What can I do for you for now? Would you like to create a plan per what to say to this person at work when you do have the opportunity? It seems to me like at least first getting the space you need, and getting back to having a work environment as free from any continued harassment or other abuse as possible is something very tangible with clear steps that is within your reach. It's really hard to process and heal from any kind of trauma if we keep having to soak in it and it continues.

[Tigger1]

Yes please and thank you. I can't be put in this situation again, I really really can't, I've done nothing but cry since I got back to my hotel room a little while ago, I'm going to head home tomorrow for the weekend and just chill before having to work with him next week, am really not looking forward to that.
I know (think I know) that we just did what I said but Is it normal not to feel clean? I feel so dirty and no amount of showering seems to take that away!
I know it sounds stupid but do you have any links that I could look at in relation to trying to figure out if my physical changes are related to that night? To be honest I'm not finding Google overly helpful and it's making it difficult to understand.
I'm just trying to work this whole thing out, as I've said my job is my everything, I've worked so so hard to get to where I am and I don't want to leave it but I don't want to have a situation like this. I can't.

[Heather]

It's really common for people to report that they feel dirty -- unclean -- after they have been sexually exploited, abused or assaulted. That's an emotional feeling, rather than a physical one, which is why washing doesn't tend to make it go away.

I don't know what you mean by "physical changes," so I wouldn't know what to refer you to. But unless you sustained injuries -- in which case, if you give me a sense of what they are, we can address those -- you probably have not had any physical changes as a result of this.

You don't need to justify how you feel about your job and the value of it for you: what you're expressing is a big part of what makes any kind of harassment or abuse at work so hard to deal with.

As I understand it, this person is subordinate to you at work essentially, yes? If so, I'd expect that a very stern warning from you with very clear boundaries should be very effective.

This might sound like a bit of rehash from what I already suggested, but I'd suggest something said and then also, ideally, in writing if you feel able, that's something like,

"I need to be very clear with you about a couple of things. It was inappropriate for us to even be kissing or flirting in our capacity as co-workers, and I take responsibility for my own part in that. However, it was beyond inappropriate for you to do what you did to me sexually without and against my express consent, and when I was intoxicated, no less. It is inappropriate for you to be winking at me in meetings or otherwise sexually harassing me. Starting right now, I insist you treat me the same way you would, I expect, treat a male co-worker or superior, and act at work, and in any interactions with me at all, in a professional manner. I also do not want any further contact with you that is not contact we have to have at work and that is only about work. If you act in any way outside of what I am saying to you, my next step will be to report this to HR (or whatever the next step up from you is when it comes to addressing any employee where you work behaving inappropriately)."

I hear you when you say you're not comfortable reporting this to your male boss right now, but this guy doesn't have to know you have that reticence, and I'd say it's best he gets the message you do NOT feel reticent to do that. The point with saying and/or writing something like the above is to both make your limits very clear and stop any further harassment or other abuse. Since it sounds like this person has been trying to intimidate you, it will likely be most effect if you come off, to him, as being even more intimidating.

[Tigger1]

I get that, I'm not an intimidating person, I've never really stood up for myself due to my self confidence levels being so low. So maybe that will go in my favour? As in he might actually believe I'm serious about what I'm saying/writing. Maybe?

Feeling unclean-didn't realise it was an emotional response to be honest, like I said I'm feeling kinda muddled right now so not thinking overly straight, I hope that makes sense.

Physical changes; one of the reasons I don't think it stopped when I think it stopped is because I have some bruises. and also had some spotting, not due period. Not known to spot between bleeds.