posted here years ago - problem never gone away

[gcw_x]

I hope I'm not too old for this message board (I'm 24). I used to post here a lot about 6-7 years ago under a different account (I can't remember password for account or for the email address I had back then). Basically I was in my first relationship and I had a problem with enjoying any kind of sex, and didn't feel any physical pleasure etc. I'm pretty sure my posts would get really annoying because I just went and found them in the archives and they were pages long (I apologise!)

Anyway, years have now gone by and I have had many sexual experiences and nothing has changed, ever. I'm not entirely sure why I'm even posting here as I know there isn't an answer, but sometimes I just need to talk about it because everyone else I've spoke to is most likely bored of hearing it. I have tried not having sex or any kind of sexual contact involving genitals (with last boyfriend) as I thought maybe eventually I could start from scratch and go really slow as if I had never done it before. That didn't work. And with my boyfriend now the whole thing is just getting awkward. And to be honest, I just want to enjoy sex like many other women do. I search online for anything that describes me and I find nothing. All I find is information about women who can't orgasm from intercourse. That really doesn't interest me as I am aware that most women can't and I'm not unrealistic.

The only thing that is different now is I get sensations in my vagina when I am asleep, but only then. And it feels like it's sort of contracting but I'm not controlling it. I would say it is pleasurable but would be more if it didn't hurt at the same time. It feels like I have a bladder infection or something when it happens, it really hurts inside my stomach. But yeah, that's the only time I get any sort of pleasurable (kind of) sensation down there.

I have been to the doctor plenty of times and if I'm honest I'm not taken seriously and never really have been. I have referred myself to a sex therapist on the NHS but it was only 6 sessions and it was completely pointless. She literally said "Hmm I really don't know what's wrong with you!" She didn't say it horribly obviously, but it was evident that she didn't really know what to say, and the last three sessions we basically spoke about things other than sex.

I'm not really sure what I'm asking to be honest. I'm starting to think this isn't psychological but maybe physical. I've asked the GP if there are any examinations that can be done to make sure everything is in working order and all he said was "I don't know I'm not a sex therapist". Then briefly mentioned that he knew of a private sex therapist in another town. Sigh. I think I'm doomed to be like this forever. Sorry for my random message with no clear question!

[Sam W]

Hi Gcw,

I'm sorry to hear it's been such a frustrating process. If it's something you're open to, I'd suggest taking the referral to second sex therapist. That would be someone who knows how to approach any psychological aspects that are going on here as well as have at least some knowledge of the physical ones (for the record, that may be why the previous therapist talked about things other than sex with you. Completely unrelated parts of your life can have huge ripples into your sexual experiences). Too, to make sure I've got this right, have at least some of the healthcare providers you've checked with been OB-GYNs? While I think it's sound of you to keep pursuing the therapist end (generally if someone is in otherwise good health, sexual issues are likely to be psychologically based more than physically based), I also want to make sure the physical health care providers you've talked to have a good sense of sexual anatomy.

In the meantime, I'd suggest focusing on generating intimacy with yourself and other people (not necessarily romantic partners). You can read more about that here: Intimacy: The Whys, Hows, How-Nots, and So-Nots

[gcw_x]

I can't afford a private therapist. I have referred myself again to a free service but to be honest any mental health service here is pretty bad. I had a telephone appointment which was like an assessment, then the next appointment they cancelled so I had to wait another week, then when I had that phone appointment the woman who spoke to me said she wasn't sure what steps to take with me so she would call back the week after. THAT appointment was also cancelled so now I have to wait until next week. It's really frustrating and kind of pointless trying to get any help.

I haven't been to an Ob-gyn, I just googled how to get an appointment with one and it says I have to get referred by my GP. It also says if they don't think anything is wrong they won't refer you. It's the NHS so they don't really like spending money. I have been to the GP lots of times like I said and the last time I asked if I could get an examination and he said "I don't know I'm not a sex therapist". And that was it. I could also go to a walk-in clinic but not all of them provide that service and the one where I live currently doesn't.

I am just incredibly frustrated and I'm starting to feel bitter that my boyfriend gets to enjoy these lovely feelings and fall asleep while I lay awake staring at the ceiling because if anything I have woken myself up more by getting him off.

[gcw_x]

I also don't think there is much point in using an NHS sex therapist again which is only six sessions, my problem cannot even be slightly sorted in six sessions. I have had this problem forever. Her advice was to have a bath and then rub lotion on myself for twenty minutes. I did that and it was incredibly boring and my arms hurt. She also advised that I carry on faking pleasure a little bit for my boyfriends benefit as he is 26 and has a sensitive ego as he is still young. To be honest I am fed up of pretending so I didn't take that advice!

[Ashleah]

Hi gcw_x,

I don't blame you and I think it is good that you didn't take that advice. If I'm being honest I think you need to take it a step further and step away from sexual activities. You have said pretty clearly that you don't enjoy sex. It's not healthy for your relationship, or you personally, to continue to have any type of sex that you don't like. With this being something you have been dealing with for years, I don't think this is a scenario where you are trying something out to see if you like it. At this point, you know what activities you do not like and continuing to engage in them has probably exasperated the issue.

Can I ask how much of this you have discussed with your current partner? And do you all openly communicate during sex? Things like checking in to make sure the other person is okay with what is going on?

I certainly understand why you are frustrated. You have been dealing with this for a long time .I'm very surprised that the therapist would tell you to fake pleasure! It's clear that they were not the best fit for you, and really anyone, if their advice was to pretend you like something you do not and continue to engage in that behavior. That alone is enough reason to give a different therapist a shot!!! Just because your time their was less than helpful does not mean that every therapist you encounter will yield the same results.

As Sam said, issues related to sex are typically psychological, so ruling out anything physical is important. Have you asked them to refer you to an OBGYN? If not, I would suggest you just ask outright.

As you said yourself, this is not something that will be sorted out quickly. Even if you had a therapist you felt comfortable with, it is still something that would take time and a lot of work. Unfortunately, my advice would be to stick with it. I know sometime that sucks to hear, but finding the right team of professionals is going to be your best bet in managing this. Things certainly sound as if they are not going smoothly as you try to establish the proper care, but in my opinion, that doesn't make it pointless. That certainly doesn't mean you don't get to be frustrated with the process.

[gcw_x]

My boyfriend knows to an extent. It is so deeply engrained in me to pretend that it was very difficult to even tell him anything. Up until my boyfriend before him I just pretended, like I was a pretty good actress in that department. I acted out the whole process, from beginning to end, when actually I felt nothing at all. Me and my last boyfriend just didn't have sex. He was fine with that, but deep down I wasn't fine because I wanted to do it still, but there was no point.

With my current boyfriend, we don't really have sex. I just give him head or wank him off. Sometimes he will try and touch me but it doesn't do anything and half the time its bone dry and very obvious so it's just awkward. So then I just close my legs and he stops. But for me having sex makes me feel close to the person and that's what I want. But if I were to do it and not pretend it's just awkward because I don't do anything, my body doesn't respond. So the other option is to pretend and I admit when we do end up having sex which is rare, I will pretend a bit. It's like an automatic reaction as that's all I have ever done. Sometimes when I'm turned on in my mind I will get wet and obviously he then thinks that it feels nice for me and it's hard to explain that yeah I'm really wet but I feel nothing. He used to try really hard like he would take forever touching me and stroking me trying to make me feel good and it did in my head but physically theres no pleasure and I think he has just given up really and I don't blame him. At one point I think I actually said don't worry about me anymore I will just touch you from now on.

Yeah this therapist was actually really annoying to me. I know she is a 'professional' but I found her advice very basic. She told me to get a vibrator which I did and I literally feel nothing with it. It's one of those that has a shaft that goes in and 'bunny ears' for the clit. I have used it three times every time I felt no pleasure, but I did wee everywhere...

When I get round to it I will book another appointment with the GP and try and get an examination booked but I don't have high hopes of that happening. I currently live with my boyfriends parents and my doctors surgery is a train and bus ride away, I am also a full time university student now so it's difficult.

Thank you for understanding my frustration

[Redskies]

Hi gcw,

it sounds like by "sex" you're just thinking of intercourse. When we - and other sex educators and sexual health practitioners - say "sex", we mean all kinds of sex, including oral sex and manual sex. The answer to What's Sex? can and often is even broader than that, too, as that link talks about. Ashleah's advice about not having sex that you don't enjoy applies to all kinds of sex and all ways of being sexual, not just intercourse.

So, even if you're not having intercourse often or at all at the moment, you and your boyfriend are having sex, so the question still applies: do you enjoy the sex you're having? From what you said just above, it isn't sounding like you do enjoy it much. It's sounding like you're being sexual with him partly for his sake, and partly as a way of feeling close to him. Do I have that right?

Per the part about having sex in order to feel close to a partner: can you identify what part of the experience makes you feel close? With you sounding somewhat disconnected from the sex itself, it may not be the sex which is giving you that feeling of closeness, as a sexual disinterest or lack of enjoyment will tend to make someone feel more distant, not close. There's very likely ways for you to feel the closeness you want without you having sex that's sounding unhelpful and unhealthy for you, and we'd be happy to brainstorm that with you if you'd like.

If you're finding that you're automatically pretending when you do have intercourse, I'd really suggest taking intercourse off the table completely, and not just having it only rarely. If you're in a place where old, unhealthy habits are still automatic - in this case, pretending - then repeating those habits, even accidentally, is very likely to keep you stuck deeper in those habits and the mindset around them. That can only make it harder to break the habits and patterns that you don't want, and that seems counter to the progress you've made for yourself and that it sounds like you still want to make. Working on and changing something that's so ingrained is hard, so good for you for the progress you've made!

Bodies can and do have some involuntary physical responses to different kinds of touch. A physical sexual response - like getting wet - doesn't necessarily say anything about what's happening in a person's head, about whether they like the touch or not. it's basically like the little plastic hammer tapped under the knee: the person's leg will twitch, and that's nothing to do with what they wanted to do or how they feel, it's their body's automatic reaction to a particular kind of physical stimulation. Would that help explain it to your boyfriend? Too, I'd think that he also will have had experiences when his body has had some kind of sexual reaction (for example, an erection), and that physical response alone didn't make him want to be sexual at that time, because that happens to almost everyone sometimes.

I'd also suggest a significant change in the way you and your boyfriend are approaching being sexual, and I think it's important, no matter what else you might or might not change: I'd suggest that your boyfriend asks you first, before touching you or beginning to be sexual with you in any way, whether it's something you want. The model you described having at the moment - he touches you, and then if you close your legs he stops - is usually not a model that helps anyone feel good about the sex they're having, or feel like they're really in control of it. Being only responsive - deciding "yes/no do I like/want a thing that's already happening" - would, and does, cause problems for a lot of people, because it's unhealthy. When you're describing the kinds of patterns you have about going along with sex and pretending, this kind of model is going to be especially problematic for you, play right into the issues you already have, and make them worse. Do you need any help with how to make that change, or how to talk about it with your boyfriend?

[gcw_x]

Yes, sorry I know that sex doesn't just mean intercourse. I actually quite like doing stuff to him because I enjoy creating a reaction.. is that weird? I like that I can make him feel something thats so alien to me because I never feel it. I find it sort of fascinating and fun watching his facial expressions and movements and such, just because I'm touching him. And I believe if you are in a relationship with someone who has a sex drive then if you stay with them there needs to be some sort of compromise. We very very rarely have intercourse anymore. So I will carry on touching him.

I don't feel like I need him to ask me before he touches me. I'm not upset if he doesn't verbally ask. Sometimes he does ask, we will be sitting on the sofa and he will try and be cheeky and ask if he can touch me there and I just say no. But I find that depressing, I want to be saying yes. He doesn't touch me very often anyway. When he does while I'm wanking him off I think he responds to non-verbal queues from me like my body language becomes relaxed and I'm a bit more 'all over' him. Also I think it turns him on to touch me so I will allow it for a bit and then when it's just boring I want to focus on sorting him out I close my legs or move his hand away. I am not upset by him doing this. What I am upset by is I can't feel any pleasure and I would be upset about that regardless if he tried to touch me or not. And naturally, I do feel bitter sometimes that he gets to feel nice. I feel bitter that he can masturbate. I feel like it's unfair that other people get to do these things and I don't.

If I had sex with him to feel close I would have intercourse a lot more often than I do. What I'm saying is I like how close it makes me feel to him. I like us being sexy together. It makes me feel desired. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But obviously because I don't get physical pleasure its pointless hence why we don't really do it. I'm not ever doing something I don't want to do. I used to, before my boyfriends I would do things I was not comfortable with but now I don't. It's too much effort and makes you feel crap after anyway.

[gcw_x]

Oh and if it matters, it's always me initiating wanking him off or giving him head. He never initiates it probably because he respects the fact I have this issue. (Just in case you thought he was still initiating even though he knows I don't enjoy sex)

[Jacob]

Hey gcw_x,

Just lending another voice here, and have written a lot! There were lots of different aspects to your posts and I just wanted to cover as much as possible. I hope it's not too much of a barrage!

Ok so first...

You're saying you enjoy creating a reaction from your boyfriend, the feeling of being able to experience this fascinating thing just by touching his body. Cool!

On the other hand you're saying you feel bitter that he 'gets' to have those reactions, and feel it as pleasure.

These two things sound like they're both going on, and I think it'd be useful to look at them.

Regarding fascination, I'd go as far as to say that that fascination and that enjoyment is a form of pleasure which you are taking from the experience. How you describe it, it is something that is yours. If as you say it's your main motivation for initiating sex, something you are otherwise not into, it sounds like it could be a big piece of who you are.

After stepping away from sex for now, which ashleah recommended, I wonder if that fascination might be the thing to build on and explore, beit with your imagination, or with future partners, or your boyfriend. Is it something you can explore in other ways, or in more concentrated ways than you have so far?

With the feeling bitter. I don't know how you guys's relationship works but I really think it requires some genuine interest in each-others enjoyment to make sex and/or touch rewarding. I can really see how bitterness could build up if that isn't happening or how it might be very difficult to make that happen when even understanding your own enjoyment to communicate it is a struggle. If that interest isn't there, or you can't find it, then I'd say this relationship might not be for you guys. Having a partner be genuinely interested in what you do enjoy and whose pleasure you enjoy could make all the difference here.

Second...

I will add that it is in no way your job to protect your boyfriends ego. If anything that just prevents certain levels of communication. Some of what we go through in relationships can be uncomfortable to talk about. But doing so and being present with that discomfort as well as the awkwardness you mention can be the very place where intimacy happens. What Redskies says about pretending is spot on.

Third...

I am also picking up on something from your original post about wanting to enjoy sex 'like other women do'. With that it's super important to know that women and everyone experience or enjoy or unfortunately, at times, dislike sex in many many different ways for many different reasons. There are people who get most of their pleasure from certain types of physical contact, there are some who enjoy it best when the contact isn't physical at all, some feel it in some parts of their bodies, while for others it can be completely mental. It can be orgasmic for some people and non-orgasmic for others. So our first step (not a first step to fixing yourself, but just a step!) could be a big dose of self-acceptance.

That isn't an easy ask. For many of us, myself included, it can take years to keep it in mind. But it is useful to keep coming back to it. What works for you sexually may never match up to what (we might think) 'other women enjoy'... but you will experience things that nobody else ever can. We can't always control the ways our bodies, or our minds do or don't react to things. It is a very scary thing... but it's also part of the funkiness of being a person... and our bodies or personalities can present new things to us we never expected.

I wonder if seeking support down those lines could be more useful to you in the future?

[gcw_x]

That's ok I like as much insight as possible!
Ok so I guess the fascination is a form of pleasure. But what I mean by not feeling pleasure is I don't feel physical pleasure on my body. And that is what I want. Regarding building on the fascination thing, I have no idea how I would do that? I just like it when he reacts to a hand job.

In the next part, I don't know if I'm understanding you correct. Are you saying that it sounds like my boyfriend isn't interested in my enjoyment or what I like? Because I don't think that is the case at all. The problem is there isn't anything that I enjoy sexually regarding things being 'done' to me. So I don't really give him anything to work with. I have basically said to him there is no point. I am the one who is telling him not to worry about it because I literally don't have any erogenous zones. There's no point in him trying.

I know I don't have to protect his ego, I used to do that with men in the past but the only reason I occasionally pretend when we have the rare intercourse is because its so automatic I can't control it. It isn't really for his ego.

I know that not all women enjoy sex in the same ways, which is why I said 'many women' and not 'all'. It's just, people say the clit has a sole purpose of pleasure. People also say that sex can relax you, make you feel less stress and make you feel relieved. I don't have anything that makes me feel these things and it feels a bit depressing. My clit might as well not be there aha. I know that I probably might just have to accept that I don't have a physical sexual response, it just seems very strange because nowhere have I seen or read that that is possible, unless you fall on the asexual spectrum, but I am not asexual.

I don't know what I could feel that no one else can. It feels like it's the opposite for me!

[gcw_x]

Also, regarding the fascination thing with wanking him off, I am not 'turned on' by this. It doesn't turn me on. I just find it fun as in like when you tickle someone and their reaction makes you smile, it's sort of like that

[Jacob]

...but it is the thing you're enjoying most right?

We can't make a physical orgasmic thing happen in your body if that isn't the way your body/mind works at this moment. Many of our bodies have limitations, and while those limitations might change, they don't always. But we are also unique and this is what I meant with the idea you will experience things that no one else will. The pleasure you get from playing with his body is something nobody can experience the exact way that you do. Exploring it could mean doing different acts where the aspects of that dynamic - namely witnessing his reaction, being the person causing those reactions - are emphasised. If this is something he is interested in.

When I speak about interest in eachothers pleasure... I mean that with regards to both of you. If he has put aside his interest because you've asked him to, and you experience his pleasure as bitterness... then this is a problem. It was also a condition to my suggestion that you could further explore the stuff you said you enjoy. You may not be at that point now though, and that makes sense.

If you want the dynamic with your boyfriend or future partners to change... I'm thinking that you would really need to challenge yourself, and radically accepting the nature of your sexuality, as it is, would be one way I can think of to do that. Otherwise you'll end up in this particular dead-end again and again.

I won't pretend that isn't some difficult work and can connect to all sorts of underlying issues. It is also perhaps something to pursue in more of a mental health capacity than a sex-therapy or sex-education context. I know that my experience with NHS therapy took a few attempts between which I needed to learn more about what I wanted, realistically, from the therapy then the next therapist could assist me in the following steps I was taking.

[Sam W]

Hi gcw,

One quick thing about an earlier post you made: you mention being a full time student. Does your university offer any kind of student health services?

From what you're describing, it does sound like focusing on aspects of pleasure not tied to sex might be helpful right now. In your everyday life, are there things you do or that other people can do to you that make you feel good? For some people that's taking a hot bath, others it's getting a back rub or having their hair stroked, or eating something incredibly tasty. The reason I bring this up is that it sounds like chasing sexual pleasure is currently an exercise in frustration for you, so focusing broadly on ways that you can create your own pleasure or a partner can create pleasure for you might help.

[gcw_x]

My boyfriend doesn't like being touched elsewhere a lot of the time, he is highly sensory and sometimes can't even take me touching his tummy. He can't have massages or anything like that he would just squirm. Sometimes that is funny and we have a laugh about it but I can't really explore doing things to him to get a reaction because he literally cant take it most of the time.

I also think a lot of the time he also doesn't want to be touched because he can't actually do the things he really wants to do, like touch me and have full intercourse. And for him I reckon getting a handjob only gets a little boring.

I enjoy eating, but doesn't everyone? To focus on eating I think wouldn't help, I would just get fat. There isn't anything else I can think of really. Hot baths are boring.

I think the nature of my sexuality probably means I should never be in a relationship with anyone. Because it just makes me depressed that I can't enjoy sex with them and I'm depriving them of a sex life. Unless I meet an asexual person.

I think there is a counselling service at uni, but I don't need that kind. The kind where I talk and they listen. I've done that loads and it doesn't help anything. Guess I will just wait for my telephone appointment next Thursday unless they cancel it again.

For me, not being sexual at all makes me feel very distant from boyfriends. I know it's not like that for all (like asexual people) but for me, it does. So yeah perhaps I should just not have boyfriends.

Thanks for your responses.

[Sam W]

Hi gcw,

With the physical touch stuff, I was more wondering about physical things that give you pleasure, not things that he likes. Things that trigger those happy, pleasant feelings and endorphins in your body (and it isn't limited to touch. Some people get that feeling from things like working out). And with food, for me anyway, there are things I eat because I need food, but there are also things I eat that specifically give me pleasure. In your life, what things can you think of that give you physical or mental pleasure?

In terms of student health services, do they have a means of getting you to an OB-GYN that might help bypass some of the barriers you were worried about in terms of accessing that? And with counseling, when you've seen therapists before has there been much give and take between you and them in terms of what you have and have not found helpful in the past?

[gcw_x]

I was referring to the suggestion from Jacob of exploring doing stuff to him that give him a reaction which I find fun.

I can't think of anything that gives me that, I'm afraid. Eating Nutella from the jar? I can't make a habit of that aha.

I do enjoy cuddling my boyfriend a lot. That's the only thing I guess that feels nice so that's pleasurable I suppose. I just think that if I took all things sexual off the table he would essentially be my room mate not my boyfriend. But yeah I just think it's easier all round for everybody if I just stay single all my life. I might break up with him because to be honest what is the point? I'm in love with him but it's just depressing.

Oh, I'm not sure. There is a sexual health service but maybe they could point me in the direction of an Ob-Gyn. I will ask them.

I have had one to one therapy with 3 different people, the first therapist I ever had I didn't like. She was like one of those nodding dogs. Just nodding and smiling like even when I wasn't saying anything? Was not helpful. I don't find it helpful to go and talk to someone who just nods and says they understand. I could do that with my sister, or friend.
The other guy was a sex therapist and he wrote my GP a letter saying he thought I should be referred to a hospital in London as he didn't think there were therapists in my area that could deal with my issue. The NHS rejected it so I couldn't do that.

And the third was the sex therapist I told you about already. I have also had group therapy which was useful for dealing with emotions.

[Jacob]

I think cuddling sounds great. You can call that relationship whatever you want. There's no rule worth listening to which says you have to have sex with someone or you can't call them a partner/boyfriend/girlfriend.

Also, enjoying food doesn't have to be bad for your health. It can be about dining and cooking interesting and super tasty food in quantities that feel right for you.

To be honest, food and cuddling are awesome. I am glad you get enjoyment out of them!

[gcw_x]

I still find it very depressing and I feel distant.

Yeah I guess you're right there, it's just finding the motivation to cook! haha