In a polyamorous and exclusive group - we all got chlamydia

[lostinfour]

Hello,

I am trying to explain, but in the end, my questions are, should we, for health reason, start to consider that things were not like we initially thought, and is there a way to investigate better whether he's the culprit or not.

Eight months ago I joined in a triad (three people in a committed relationship) to make it... Whatever that is with four people. They were two women and a man. I am myself female. Well, in reality there was one woman, who I felt close and friendly to, but wasn't interested in being with romantically nor physically, so I guess it was more like two triads? Hard to put a label on this. We had been friendly for a while and I had felt a crush for the man and one woman for a while, until I decided to ask them out. I felt honestly happy and fulfilled, emotionally, lovingly, caringly and sexually, for the time it lasted. Honestly after thinking about it I preferred to be in a relationship where there is already a man and a woman to love. Maybe it was a little convenient that I already knew these friends who were open to it, but it felt like a gift from life to me. We were trying to keep communication open, and I had every reasons to believe that everyone was happy about the arrangement.

Last month, he announced that he had got tested and he had chlamydia. We now know we all have it, which is not a surprise. We all use birth control with no condom. Most were virgins before entering the relationship, and the others got tested before, so we felt like as we were exclusive to the group, we were safe. Naively of course, as we now know.

He was "kicked out" immediately. We didn't live together, but I mean we never wanted to hear about him again, and we girls sticked together. Also getting support from my parents, who knew and were supportive the whole time along, and now support us after what happened.

More recently I've been thinking to myself, why is he the one who took the blame again? One of us strayed, which is bad enough as we're emotionally invested and vulnerable to each other, and gave us all a disease in addition. But come to think of it I have no idea why it was assumed on all parts that he was the one who strayed.

I think it officially comes down to two reasons:

- he is usually looked by outsiders as having a very poor moral code. ... But... Not by us, before the incident.
- he was very visibly and explicitly crushed by guilt.

But re-reading what he had to say, the guilt part was about having accepted a sex life all together and unprotected, which, as evidently some of us turned out not ready for this, caused us all to get a disease. Okay but we girls were not innocent in this. None of us wanted condoms. He very often offered. I understand now, that him, like all of us, had a duty to make condoms mandatory, and not just cave in to partners demanding no condom. But he was not in any way guiltier than any of us. And more to the point, that's not guilt out of having cheated. That's guilt out of having done a completely different bad thing. That we all approved of.

As for why he is usually regarded as having poor morale code:

- he is much older than the rest of us. Well, we're attracted to older men (personally, older men and women.) We knew what we were going for. And he was not easy to get, at that.
- he is the only man in a "harem" of women. Well, none of us wanted something different, and if we did, there was nothing in our way to pursue something else instead. Maybe we were in a "harem" with a guy who has it all, but we were feeling free as can be and we were exactly where we wanted to be.
- he has a reputation of having built quite an experience sexually. Hmm. Okay. So? (We were not quite complaining about that)
- he is generally regarded as not conventionally attractive. Hmm. Okay. So?
- he is generally regarded as immature. Well I don't know... He looked like a rather more functional adult than the others. He has achievements to talk for. Those who call him immature don't really have much to show for themselves.

I feel like none of these things were things we could hold against him.

So I've started to feel like the reason he was designated as guilty, was "girls sticking together". But that doesn't sit right with me at all.

Anyway that's where my questions come. We've talked to our doctors and taken care of our health, thinking that he was the source of our STI. What if he wasn't, and it comes from someone else in the group who strayed? Should we start looking at taking care of our health with that in mind?

Are there ways to figure out whether he's the one who strayed and introduced the disease? He denied vehemently when we were still talking. I'm feeling like discreetly reopening dialogue with him to figure out what he has to say.

And obviously I'm still in love, so I'm easily vulnerable.

[Sam W]

Hi lostinfour,

This sounds like it was a highly stressful and emotional situation for everybody, and I'm sorry you're dealing with it. The trick thing is, the only way to truly know who introduced the STI into the group is to have an honest conversation with everyone about whether or not they had a partner (or partners) outside the group. You can kind of use process of elimination based on when everyone last tested and what their status was, but that can't guarantee you an answer. To make sure I'm reading the situation correctly, had all of you been tested for STIs prior to engaging in unprotected sex with one another? And when people are saying they were virgins, how are they defining that? Because some people will consider themselves virgins even when they have engaged in some activities that pose a risk of transmitting Chlamydia. Also, have you and the remaining members of the group retested to make sure the illness has cleared up?

But, again, the only true way to sort this out is for everyone to be honest about whether or not they had partners outside the relationship. Do you feel like that kind of honesty is likely to occur?

It sounds like you feel bad about removing the guy from your dynamic, and like you're reconsidering whether that was the right call. Have you talked to the other two women about your concerns? If so, what have they said? You may also want to think about why you all chose to break up with him (which is basically what happened). Was it that he violated the exclusivity you'd all agreed on? Was it that he introduced an illness into the group? Concerns about his ability to be an honest partner?

[lostinfour]

Thank you.

My doctor arranged for me to re-test this week. So far, it's assumed the illness is not cleared up. As far as I can tell none of us were, except maybe him, but with communication closed...

When I joined, I was given an overview on how they approached sex safety so far. So I wasn't told every little details, but the general idea for each of them, and I was asked, considering I wanted in, what I felt safe to disclose. Okay, he was the only non-virgin. And he got tested, he regularly does. As far as I'm concerned, my intimacy so far included holding hands, and kissing family members on cheeks. I'm not being sarcastic but all the information I read tell that's safe enough. As for the other two, it boiled down to they had kissed boyfriends on lips before, and that was it. Not even more passionate kisses.

I haven't gathered the courage to talk to everyone about my sudden doubts about why he was the one blamed. The mood is gloomy and regarding him, the atmosphere is not to say anything good about him. And I have another problem. If we imagine that he isn't the one who strayed, then that means that someone else did, and it's not me, so... That leaves one of the other two. Who would, then, have let everything happen without speaking up. I'm starting to realize that at least one of them and maybe them both may be thinking the same. I think that trust will be difficult to build again. I want to believe that we could have a honest discussion about whether anything happened, anything at all, with other people. That's easy for me, as nothing happened with anyone else (for instance, I don't drink and don't take drugs). But we imagine that one of them did have something happen, I fear that if they could be honest they would already have been so far. But it's a fear. Not a certainty.

We're clear that we broke up, out of overwhelmed emotions, because he cheated on us and we were crushed. I know that may seem surprising, but it is how it is. We were all emotionally attached to our promise and trust to not look elsewhere, out of feeling completely satisfied, completed and fulfilled with each other. We got ourselves vulnerable to each other and relying on this trust. The illness was just a disgusting addition to it. However, I now feel like we accused the messenger of the fact that there was infidelity. He might also be the culprit, but I simply see no reason to think he must be it, and the others make a point that they didn't have more discussions with him than I had.

[Mo]

It sounds like your next step here is to talk to the two other women you're currently involved with and lay out your concerns. You could maybe lead with the fact that you've picked up on some potential worries they have about the situation and you'd like to be able to all speak honestly and openly about what happened. It sounds like the general vibe between all of you may be that no one wants to talk about him or the infection that caused the breakup, but I think it's important to be able to share your concerns with them so you can all get your feelings out in the open.

It sounds like the three of you have chosen to continue your relationship with each other, do I have that right? If so, it's important that you all find ways to communicate about issues like this, even though it's hard. If you can't trust your other partners and worry that they were the ones who cheated and introduced chlamydia into your relationship group, then it's going to be really hard to build a strong and healthy relationship, going forward. Talking this out might reveal something upsetting, it's true, but I think not talking about it could also cause problems in the long run. Also, if you feel like you just can't trust what they say about this situation, I think that would be a sign just by itself that it might not be a great relationship situation for you at all right now.

I'm suggesting you talk to your other current partners first because that conversation might be enough to reinforce your trust in them and you might feel more sure about the way things ended with the man who was part of your relationship in the past. It could be that just talking with the other women in this group is enough that you won't feel the need to follow up with him, and since you are actively with them now, those relationships (as a triad and between each pair of the three of you) are the most important ones to put effort into.

If you talk this out with them and you or they still feel like things are unresolved and contacting him could help, that might be something you could look into, but I think starting with the other women you're still with is going to be a good idea.

[lostinfour]

Well you see, one of them is my girlfriend, but the other is more a very close friend to me, as well as my girlfriend's girlfriend and my (ex)boyfriend's girlfriend. She and I are not romantically nor physically involved, but we loved the same persons happily and that made for a special closeness.

And I am now terrified to realize that lately I've been thinking of them as just "the group" rather than "my girlfriend" and "my friend". My girlfriend and I were in a relationship, and nothing was said or done since that changed anything to it, however the mood was very much not into being romantic, and all that stayed was the closeness. I think that's yet another issue to address.

And you're right, I obviously need to start that uncomfortable discussion.

I have a confession, in a sudden bout of horribly missing him I sent him a text just asking how he was and if we could talk. There is "no grounds to be concerned about how he is" but he told me that he would only talk to me if he has my parents on the phone telling them that it's okay and won't be held against me to talk to him. I guess I will do that, but indeed I have a discussion to have with my girlfriend and my friend.

[Heather]

I don't want to interrupt the excellent exchanges you've been having here already, but I am just poking my nose in to leave something basic from a safer sex perspective so you can get well and hopefully stay well moving forward.

The standard advice for someone in your spot would be to treat your Chlamydia, and go back to barrier use for any activities with partner where it could be transmitted. You -- and any of your partners -- will then ideally keep using barriers for either a) always, if you or any of your partners are not actually exclusive/closed or, if you don't want to keep using them, then b) only ditch them when it's been at least 3 months AND everyone is closed again, hopefully for real this time, AND everyone tests negative for all STIs before ditching those barriers. Then you'll want to be sure you all keep up with testing around twice a year, and potentially more often if you're adding anyone new into the mix more often than that. Your healthcare providers can help you make the right testing schedule for you if you tell them the kind of information you've shared here about your partners.

And in the future, you will be taking far fewer risks if that's how you always do it from the start, always starting with barrier use and never ditching barriers before anyone/everyone you're with has been currently tested and all have negative results.

[Sam W]

It sounds like there are lot of shifts happening in your relationships, romantic and otherwise, and that can definitely feel scary. It also means there need to be some pretty serious conversations and self-reflection, which can also feel intimidating, but will ultimately help you sort out what the best course of action for you will be.

Before you have anymore contact with your ex, I'm with Mo in that you should have a talk or two with your current partner and your friend. For starters, it sounds like you and your remaining partner need to discuss whether you'd like to stay a couple or call off the romantic component of your relationship. Would you like some help figuring out how to have the conversation? I also think it would be sound to take some time on your own to look at these pieces and evaluate your relationships (both your current one and the one that existed when your ex was in the picture): Does Your Relationship Need a Checkup?
Potholes & Dead Ends: Relationship Roadblocks to Look Out For . If you have any thoughts or questions as you're reading those pieces, you're welcome to bring them up here.

I do want to say a few things about your ex. First off, it's okay that you miss him, especially if he was one of your first sexual or romantic relationships (some people find losing those "firsts" can be particularly tough). But, I do think it's worth noting that right now he has not demonstrated some of the most basic qualities needed to be a good partner, especially to a person considerably younger and less experienced than him. There's a very good chance he went against the boundaries of the relationship, was dishonest about it, and did not take the precautions needed to avoid passing an STI to three separate people. And even if it turns out he wasn't the person who went out of bounds you don't feel like you can have an honest conversation with him about what happened, which means one of the most needed foundations of a relationship isn't there. Does that make sense?

[lostinfour]

Thank you very much for your advice, and for inspiring getting the courage to have the tough talk.

So... We talked. And there will have to be many more talks to come.

I think the most relevant part is the one I initially came here about. The girl I'm not directly involved with confessed that she experimented with alcohol alone with her BFF, and along the line there was sharing of a vibrator. Said BFF and her boyfriend are confirmed to have had chlamydia, since before our original boyfriend discovered his infection. Her doctor told her it was a possible vector, and we think it is not reasonable to assume there is another source than this one.

We didn't really want to wait too long on the decision to tell our original boyfriend that we don't think anymore he betrayed us. But we didn't want to be too hard on the girl and tell directly what are our findings. Rather that was a discussion for a less urgent time. We arranged to meet tomorrow with everyone present and the possibility to have one on ones when one of us feels the need, with the plan to have the difficult disclosure of what happened, where do we feel we are on who wants to be with who, or thinks that may be the case after some time for themselves, and how are we going to proceed then in the immediate future.

And even if it turns out he wasn't the person who went out of bounds you don't feel like you can have an honest conversation with him about what happened, which means one of the most needed foundations of a relationship isn't there. Does that make sense?

It makes all the sense in the world. However, I think it is partly misguided. I didn't feel like I could have an honest conversation with him, because in the flow of the emotions running high, I was too impressed and numb to try and have that conversation by my own decision, before I was dragged away to a place where the official stance is that he was our enemy. When I suddenly started to realize that I didn't actually know what had happened and that such a conversation should be had, I was also "aware" (more like assuming) that my girlfriend, my friend and my parents would be upset that I decide to talk to our enemy against the official stance. Emotions were still high on the subject, though mostly gloomy. And when my rush of missing him suddenly made me ignore these considerations, he himself was afraid that contacting him behind my parents' backs would make them disappointed in me.

Before the event that exploded our dynamics, we had conversations. Some of them were difficult. But it looked like we could always bring up what's in our minds and talk honestly.

I failed him by not having this conversation by the time it didn't feel like something forbidden by the rules of betrayal. I think we all failed him. But I also think I deserve to forgive myself on it as the circumstances were difficult on me, and to take it as a learning lesson and become better at handling difficult times. That doesn't mean I'm not floored every time I start thinking about the pain he must have been going through.

[Heather]

Just poking in from the side again: honestly, picking up Chlamydia from a shared vibrator would be pretty unlikely, much less likely than it would be that someone in the group -- and most often, it's a someone with a penis, not a vulva -- had unprotected intercourse outside the closed group.

However, it sounds like this actually isn't a very closed group in the first place (since at least one other person involved has a boyfriend outside of it, if I have this right), and like everyone involved is having sex unprotected with at least a few different people, so all bets are probably off in figuring out the original source of this, period.

Also, I don't think you failed anyone here. I'd suggest you try not to see this that way, as it being about grand betrayals or failures or enemies. Those ways of looking at this all sound very dramatic to me, and not like sound, grounded ways to look at or consider real-life interpersonal relationships made of plain old people, you know? If this way of framing things is kind of how it is in this group/relationship, then personally, I think it would be a good idea to all talk about that, and about changing that.

Honestly, you all have had a setup that involves big risks of STIs -- especially if no one uses barriers from the get-go -- and one getting into this mix given that was pretty inevitable, just because of how infectious diseases and people's bodies work.

[lostinfour]

Well... It wasn't exactly respectful to the rules, let alone the emotions of the others, that my friend got involved like that with her BFF. Acts like these were supposed to be limited to within the four of us. And therefore, the fact that my friend's BFF has a boyfriend was not supposed to be relevant information to us. But it has become so in the light of the recent confession.

We considered for some time, that sharing sex toys is not known as the most efficient way to spread STIs. However, and doctor-confirmed, considering that there was the same STI at the same time on the side my friend's BFF, seems to make it very likely that the STI was spread by this vector. I am also not sure what are the possible ways to transmit STI from a vagina bearer to another, but for all my friend knows, it's possible that more happened and she was too out of it to remember. Anyway, at the very least, we felt it was completely dishonest to claim that the source had to be something else for certain.

I agree with you that speaking of 'enemies' is not an... Helpful way to look that situations. I was trying to express that as a result of the high emotions involved, there was a sort of absurdity regarding how we were talking about him. This is not normally us. But we were very depressed and that's were we arrived in the aftermath. Well, no past tense. Feelings are a little higher somehow but it's not celebration time.

[Sam W]

I'm going to second Heather on the suggestion that trying to suss out who, exactly, introduced the STI into the dynamic is at this point isn't likely to be possible (although they are correct that transmitting via vibrator would be far less likely than the person with the penis introducing it into the group), and may actually serve as a distraction from some of the deeper conversations that need to be had about this relationship.

For instance, there's the fact that you didn't feel like you could voice your concerns to your other partners before you were "dragged" over to their side of the argument. Or, the fact that because emotions were high, people seemed unable to communicate honestly or constructively. It can be incredibly difficult to be honest or calm in moments where emotions are running high, but learning how to do that is important in terms of being able to have healthy relationships (both romantic and otherwise). So it seems like there needs to be discussion of figuring out how you all can resolve conflict more effectively. Too, it sounds like whoever decides to continue in this relationship also need to build space for partners to be able to say when they've done something sexual outside of the group, as that can help head a lot of drama off at the pass. Would some tools on how to do those things be helpful?

I would also suggest that you bring to the group that the best way to avoid a situation like this in the future is for anyone who continues to be sexual agree to using barriers for all sexual activity that poses possible risks of STI transmission ( you can find a full list here: Can I Get Pregnant, or Get or Pass On an STI From That? ). That means condoms, as well as dental dams and gloves: All the Barriers! All the Time! . Do you feel like everyone would be open to that idea?

One other thing I noticed in your more recent posts is that it sounds like you're taking a lot of responsibility for his feelings during this whole situation. Is that something you find happens often in this relationship? If so, where do you think that comes from?

[lostinfour]

Well we're trying to have discussions about these problems, but I guess I do welcome external resources on how to come with solutions.

Too, it sounds like whoever decides to continue in this relationship also need to build space for partners to be able to say when they've done something sexual outside of the group, as that can help head a lot of drama off at the pass.

You mean space for them to say they cheated.

It's not fun to think about "next time" someone will cheat, but I guess the situation shows we need guidance on that anyway. So yes, it would be appreciated.

I would also suggest that you bring to the group that the best way to avoid a situation like this in the future is for anyone who continues to be sexual agree to using barriers for all sexual activity that poses possible risks of STI transmission (...). That means condoms, as well as dental dams and gloves [...] . Do you feel like everyone would be open to that idea?

I feel like he's the only one open to that.

That was discussed, and we agreed on it being the reasonable conclusion. However, I guess I have to admit it, I don't have sex to be reasonable, I have sex to get crazy bonding with my partner, and sexual pleasure on the side. The mere thought of condoms has been killing my mood in the past (right now it is in constant killed mode), let alone these other protections. I think I know the other two enough to know that they might see it differently, but they don't feel like starting to use protection after not having used them so far.

I really don't know how to make progress on that question. Having my libido killed at least has the benefit that I don't feel internal pressure to rush for a solution. He announced that for a foreseeable future he would not be open to sex without these complete protections, no matter the partner, so I guess I have limited options.

One other thing I noticed in your more recent posts is that it sounds like you're taking a lot of responsibility for his feelings during this whole situation. Is that something you find happens often in this relationship? If so, where do you think that comes from?

No, actually, I think that was a first. We were all caught unprepared for this crisis. But normally it's more the opposite, we've heard him say from time to time "I'm sorry, it's my fault you're feeling like this. I didn't realize that would cause this." It feels a bit overdone.

I'm not taking all the responsibility, I feel like I was involuntarily pressured into going with the flow with the others and that's more on them than me. But that I do have my part.

[Sam W]

How have those conversations been going? Do you feel like progress is being made and new boundaries and understandings are being reached? Or does it feel like y'all are going in circles? As far as resources, this is a great place for everyone to start learning effective conflict resolution skills: How to Clash With Love: Some Conflict Resolution Basics

And yes, I mean there need to be open enough channels of communication that someone can be honest about cheating (or anything else, really). Part of creating that space is learning those conflict resolution skills, another is everyone being on the same page that, even if the conversation and the fallout is painful, it's better to be honest about something happening than to try to hide it and have consequences pop up later on. Too, even if you eventually move on from this group, having those tools will help you out in any future relationships.

So, aside from protection being a non-negotiable for him (which is something you and the other two need to respect if you continue to be sexually active), I think it's worth examining where some of your feelings about it are coming from. Why, to you, do condoms feel like a barrier to bonding or pleasure? What about the idea of using them kills your libido? After all, they're thin bits of latex that only take a quick pause to get on, not giant intimacy-killers, you know?

[lostinfour]

Hi! I'm sorry I took some time to answer. We had a lot of discussions and bonding back, and I had neglected a few important stuff that I had to work on. Still, I guess considering how I felt helped here, I'd like to continue this conversation. I have also read the articles you offered.

I'm not entirely sure what to say about how the conversations went. It seems everyone feels a lot better, and I know I do, so in and by itself that's pretty good I guess? Regarding the problems we have, all we could really think of was try and remember them as a bad example we have had in our past, and how it didn't help anyone and it should not be repeated. That is, face an overwhelming situation, flee, refuse to talk, assume for the worse, all be miserable and maintain each other in an atmosphere of pressure to keep things as they are, even if in reality we would have been open to talk to each other. If something is ever to look like the same again, there will be no fleeing, or at least only as some much-needed space in the moment but there will be talk later. We also acknowledge, that there is no such thing as an official policy where talking against it is unwelcome. Ever. We want to restore Nazism we can talk about it. And probably end up broken up because of irreconcilable incompatibilities, but after a calm, safe talk when everyone gets heard without fear.

As for boundaries, we weren't sure what to say. Our boundaries in that context were already clear enough. The four of us and nobody else, and my partners' girlfriend and I aren't up for a romance or physical together. We don't, however, want to restrict too much what one can do with one's BFF. After all, if one of us is close enough to her BFF to allow to see and be seen in the nude, and to share and demonstrate techniques of masturbation, it sounds fine to us... Under some considerations. Which come down to the BFF being nothing but a BFF and not someone they'd like to date or have sex with. In short, they didn't touch each other, and they wouldn't want to, and we think that's fairly established (the BFF is fully straight and if my partners' girlfriend was attracted to her she would know by now.) To them the idea that they were close to have sex was ridiculous, and as BFF in their circumstances it's not really questionable. As a counterexample, my boyfriend has a female best friend and confider. Not really a BFF. They're both straight and they could have been a couple in other circumstances (never both single at opportunate times.) No we wouldn't accept that they get more undressed in each others' company than swimsuits. Let alone demonstrating masturbation. He is a naturist and we could account for it, but she's not so no. Not that he wanted to. That was for illustration of what we meant as a boundary. So in reality no one is upset at my partners' girlfriend for breaking boundaries, we just have a problem with the risks taken with everyone's health, by not having washed their toys before sharing. So health questions are not to be ignored like that anymore. And talking when in doubt is to be encouraged.

Why, to you, do condoms feel like a barrier to bonding or pleasure? What about the idea of using them kills your libido? After all, they're thin bits of latex that only take a quick pause to get on, not giant intimacy-killers, you know?

I've talked a lot about that though in my native language. Time to see if I can do it in English .

First, I didn't think about the time it takes to put on the condom. I don't think it's a big deal. Maybe I'd put it on myself to keep both of us involved. Not an issue.

Second, they're slimy and it doesn't come from either of us. The smell is strong and also isn't from either of us. I don't know what else to say, but that I am completely disgusted in the presence of an opened condom. That thing is not going inside me.

Third, well barrier protection is a barrier, appropriately named. I don't want a barrier between my lover and I. I think that sex, to me, is highly about the emotions, that derive from the feelings I have for the persons. If there was a physical barrier between us I would know of it, and I just don't approve of it. It's not welcome here to me. I don't put walls between my partner and me. I want us completely connected, emotionally and not obviously denied by a physical one. Thinking further, I think that may depend on the strength of the bond I already feel with my partner. So far, they're my firsts. I started in about to learn about my own way to live sexuality and I was really eager, attracted and completely smitten with my first man. These past weeks I've devoted some more serious thoughts to a future with other partners, and I think with others, I'd start with using condoms/dental dams. (Well, if there was not the disgust factor, that is.)

Fourth and most importantly. Hmm. This one will be explicit and graphic. But I guess that is to be expected when talking about sexuality. It is very satisfying, it makes me all kinds of very happy, it is really good for my arousal and for the possible orgasms to come, and it is just great for the rest of my day... To accept my man's sperm inside me. I don't really know what to say. It's a physical materialization of the sex we had, that he got great pleasure from, and of how he was entirely welcome inside me. I'm not sure how much of it is self-suggestion and how much of it is actually feeling it inside me, but I'd be reminded of it throughout the day and smile to myself that I love the sexuality we share. My girlfriend couldn't be clearer that she's the same. Sometimes we're both sitting beside each other, each with a hand on our tummy right below the navel and it's obvious what we are fondly thinking of. We'd rest our heads on each others', and that often initiates sex between us. Bottom line, I feel really sad at the prospect of making do without it.

[Heather]

You know, I always think it's interesting how some people interpret a physical barrier as an emotional one. That's not been my experience at all in my personal life, so it is something that I generally just find hard to understand, even though I know it's fairly common for people from my work.

If you're interested, I'd disagree, personally, whether we're talking about a condom, a cervical cap, a dental dam, a pair of underpants, or a BC method like an IUD, which also acts as a barrier, basically. From both a personal and a professional standpoint, I'd say that NOT using physical barriers -- especially when we need them to protect our health, or to keep pregnancy from occurring -- can be something that I have seen create more emotional barriers than using them.

For instance, in using barriers, we often need to communicate more, including in some really intimate and vulnerable ways. Not using them often has a lot to do with people wanting to avoid communication. We also often have to be honest with each other about some tricky things in a way we or others can avoid or share less around when we're not negotiating barrier use. Not using barriers can obviously sometimes create huge emotional distress and conflict like you've been experiencing, which can and often does throw up some long-term barriers to intimacy.

How *physically* close we are or aren't also often has to do with things like just how our bodies are, including things like body mess, ability and disability, and we can be very physically close to someone yet still emotionally miles apart, and very emotionally close with someone but not as physically close as human bodies can technically get, you know? Later on in your life, as is often the case for more people than not, you and your partners may find disabilities develop that make certain ways of being physical unpleasant or more difficult: I hope you know now, and do then, that that doesn't mean being less emotionally close unless you make it so.

But mostly, I'd say that the idea that physical barriers -- or, as people often take this this way, using things with sex that aren't only our skin, be it BC methods, safer sex, a strap-on, a prosthesis (and for some of us, prosthetics may have been man-made, but they feel as much a part of our bodies as the parts we were born with) -- keep us from getting emotionally closer is just not true unless we get it in our heads that they somehow must, something plenty of people seem to get stuck in their heads. This is very personal, but as someone who has been sexual with many people over a few decades, with a wide array of barriers or not, and with and without other things besides our bodies, I personally haven't experienced that with barriers and the like = less close and no barriers = more. I wouldn't say that barriers actually had much of anything to do with emotional closeness, period, when it all comes down to it. I can think of a lot of factors that did influence that, and this isn't one of them UNLESS we're talking about people being weird about barrier use and safer sex, in which case that certainly usually stopped intimacy and closeness dead in its tracks.

I'd also say that there isn't such a thing as people being "completely connected," to be perfectly honest. For sure, we can sometimes get very, very physically and emotionally close to each other, but the idea we can somehow connect in a way that puts nothing between us strikes me as a romantic idea or a projection -- one I get, mind you, it's a beautiful notion -- more than reality. Physics alone negate that, as does what we know about how our brains and neurochemicals (the source of our emotions) really work. But even when it's as close to reality as it gets, I think we can be sure that that kind of closeness, something as potentially big as that, is hardly going to be hampered by a slip of latex or polyurethane. If it was, I feel like we could be pretty sure our ideas we were close were total fantasy, since real closeness just isn't impeded by things like that, IMO.

As an aside, per you feeling like condoms smell a way you don't like, I'm guessing you're talking about pre-lubricated latex condoms? If so, you may want to try using nonlatex condoms and use lubrication you like the scent of, or that doesn't have a scent at all. I have a pretty sensitive sniffer myself (perhaps because of its large size! ), so while the smell of latex doesn't bother me like it does you, I certainly notice it. I don't have the same experience with polyurethane condoms, which also have a different feel (more velvety) you may find you like better, too.

In terms of your last paragraph, by all means, if you're someone who really both gets off on, and feels emotionally strong about, a partner's fluids in your body, then by all means, you probably are going to feel disappointed sometimes if and when that's not possible (like when your partner gets off but doesn't ejaculate, or when a partner doesn't want that for themselves), or when it's not something smart to do for your health. No one can really mitigate that. But you can probably also get creative and come up with some safer alternatives that -- even if they don't feel, physically and emotionally -- exactly the same, get you close enough to still get those feelings you like from fluid-sharing. A lot of people who feel similarly, for example, find that kind of satisfaction by fluid-sharing with ejaculation on other parts of the body that aren't vectors for infection or pregnancy.

[Sam W]

It sounds like you all have been having a lot of conversations about this, which is great! One thing I want to touch on in your discussion of boundaries is if you all now have a clear understanding of what behaviors with others are or are not permitted. For instance, it sounds like you all are okay with things like nudity and mutual masturbation with a person outside of the group as long as no physical contact happens. Is the rule there that the those activities are only if there's no attraction between the people doing them? Or is the possibility of attraction enough to make that activity over the limit? And is everyone on the same page about those limits?

With condoms, if the sliminess is an issue for you, I second Heather's suggestion to use unlubricated condoms (since the sliminess is coming from the lube). Too, it might help to think about why the smells or textures from the condom put you off in ways that those same sensations from a partner don't. Are there feelings you have about what's natural vs what's not natural to feel or smell during sex?

It sounds like there are some even deeper reasons why condom use is unappealing to you, so let's dig into those a bit. For context, I'd start by reading this piece and seeing what you thing, as it addresses some of the things you're describing here: Love the Glove: 10 Reasons to Use Condoms You Might Not Have Heard Yet . You mention thinking of condoms as barriers, and they are. But they're designed to be barriers to specific things (namely pregnancy and STI transmission), rather than barriers to things like intimacy, connection, or pleasure. And they don't have to be that unless you let them. Heather did a really good job of explaining why, so I'm not going to repeat what they said. Something you could try on your own time is thinking about things like: condoms are very, very thin (some are designed to be as unnoticeable as possible). What, other than the transmission of fluids, is that thinness preventing? What about a very minuscule item on one part of the body makes it feel like there's a barrier to emotional connection?

It does sound like fluid exchange is something you enjoy, and one of the reasons you prefer to go without condoms. And that's something that plenty of other people like as well. But, what you and your partners need to have a discussion about is how y'all are going to feel if another STI is introduced into the group because you all still chose to go without barriers. Is everyone truly comfortable with that risk? Or are some people going along with it for fear of alienating their partner(s)?

[lostinfour]

Wow, Heather, this is all things that my boyfriend brought up!

For instance, it sounds like you all are okay with things like nudity and mutual masturbation with a person outside of the group as long as no physical contact happens.

I guess. Is it still mutual masturbation if there is no physical contact (nor involving any wireless device)? I would have called it, like, a demonstration or a show of masturbation at most.

Is the rule there that the those activities are only if there's no attraction between the people doing them? Or is the possibility of attraction enough to make that activity over the limit? And is everyone on the same page about those limits?

The possibility of attraction is over the limit. Really, we feel accepting of the sort of closeness you'll develop with a BFF, but conservative caution still needs to be applied because we will soon feel that we were lied to about being enough or other issues, and rational or not feel betrayed beyond measure as just happened. For instance, if we don't even know they're your BFF, they're not your BFF.

That was discussed veeeeery extensively. You wouldn't believe my boyfriend's imagination on what can arise. Yet we tried to stick to a notion that was simple enough as it showed clearly enough what we're all comfortable with. We also spoke again about existing boundaries, like flirting. No, and it must be clearly rejected, but we admit that flirt is not always conscious nor noticed and that's fine as soon as the agreed behavior is enacted when noticed, so there is place for trusting each other that we aren't trying to break the rules. There were reexaminations to ensure we all got it and there will be more before we feel we can move on from that crisis.

For context, I'd start by reading this piece and seeing what you thing, as it addresses some of the things you're describing here: Love the Glove: 10 Reasons to Use Condoms You Might Not Have Heard Yet

Point 7 hits so hard it hurts. I guess that makes it good.

It does sound like fluid exchange is something you enjoy, and one of the reasons you prefer to go without condoms. And that's something that plenty of other people like as well. But, what you and your partners need to have a discussion about is how y'all are going to feel if another STI is introduced into the group because you all still chose to go without barriers. Is everyone truly comfortable with that risk? Or are some people going along with it for fear of alienating their partner(s)?

Oh that was discussed. I was just being honest. We aren't quite comfortable with that risk. At least not before a handful of years trying to see how we've changed. Especially when he said that was Chlamydia, it could have been AIDS or that latest one.

Right now we don't have a libido because we feel disgusted that we're ill. Whenever we start to want to initiate again, we think we'll be going with stimulation by hand. Though that means if none of us can eventually accept to use condoms, he'll be left with handjobs only and I'm not sure this will be much of a great time to him.

[Heather]

Is it still mutual masturbation if there is no physical contact (nor involving any wireless device)?

Yep. Masturbation is about touching YOURSELF. Mutual masturbation is usually the term used to describe when people are masturbating in each other's company as a sexual thing to do together. Manual sex is the term for touching each other's genitals, if that's what you mean.

I'm heading out for the day, so I can't get too deep into another response right now (sorry!), but I'm looking at your last paragraph, and I'm thinking this guy can likely take care of himself and determine from himself what a great time is. Too, if he's got even a little bit of emotional maturity, he can also accept that sometimes in life we have to adjust what we do or want to match the fact that we're all mere mortals. We can get sick or hurt, for instance, so sometimes we don't get to do what we'd ideally want because it could make us or others sick or injured in a way that isn't worth it.

I'd suggest focusing on you instead of on him. Let him take care of himself in this regard. You take care of you, you know? And by all means, I'd suggest you make sure you're not kind of setting things up so that you convince yourself, him or others that HE can't be satisfied with what's safe. That could very well wind up being self-sabotage for everyone's health. You might also want to check in with yourself about your own esteem in all this: what if he's not totally sexually satisfied (as people won't be at least now and again in life and just about every relationship)? You're still worth just as much, right? You still are a good lover, right? You still are worth his -- or anyone else's -- time and attention and care, right? If you aren't quick to say "yes" to those things, I'd think about why.

It can be easy (particularly when we're young and sexually unconventional, a thing I remember well) to fall into a trap where our sexual self-esteem is based on doing all the things or having few to no limits or being someone's everything-sexual-they-want-and-like for a while. I hope that even if this guy or any other partner can't get everything they want from you sexually all the time (or any of the time, even!), you still have a high sexual and general self-esteem. It's difficult to impossible to maintain that kind of situation for long, if at all, or without some fallout of some kind eventually, and also easy to lose sight of that and remember that even when we're not everything-off-the-charts when it comes to being sexual, we're still good, and we're still desirable. <3

(If you needed to hear none of that, apologies. I just wanted to be sure.)

[lostinfour]

I mean, I guess I could use a pep talk that it will be okay. I just wish things were better.

[Sam W]

Given how much turmoil there's been in your relationships lately, it's totally understandable that you'd be feeling like you needed to be reassured it will be okay. When you say you just wish things were better, can you say a little more about that?

[lostinfour]

It's kind of a general observation that things are still not so fun, even though it's not gloomy as when we were not really talking, and I miss the times when it was fun everywhere you looked at.

I wish we did not all have an illness (well, he has a clean bill so far, but we're waiting on ours, and we want another clean bill a month after to feel safe.)

I wish my boyfriend could contemplate better than handjobs to come.

I wish it was fine to ignore condoms/dental dams.

Nothing very heavy, just wishful thinking.

[Sam W]

Those are all pretty common desires to have spring up, especially if a relationship (or relationships) have gone through a major shake-up. When you're feeling all those wishes piling up on you, it can be helpful to think about which ones are actually feasible and which ones will have to stay solidly in the "I wish" category. That can make things feel more manageable.

For instance, your wish for all of you to no longer have an STI will likely happen once you've all completed the treatment (I thinking asking for a retest after another month is also a sound idea in terms of safer sex practices). On the other hand, the wish to just be able to ignore things like condoms and dental dams unfortunately doesn't line up with the realities of being a sexually active person. It sounds like some thing that might be helpful for you, and maybe for your partners as well, is to take a look at this article and think about how it relates to your relationship: Sorting Maybe from Can't-Be: Reality Checking Partnered Sex Wants & Ideals

When thinking about things not being as pleasant as they were prior to all the turmoil, what things do you think would be necessary to start building back up to that level of trust and happiness? It may be that things won't be able to be exactly the same as before, given all the emotions and revelations that happened, but there may also be steps you all can take to start rebuilding those relationships (if that's something you all want).

Can you tell me a little more about what you mean when you wish your boyfriend could think of something better than hand jobs?