Scarleteen

Hey again Scarleteen.

In the past I always used to identify as male/cis (Gender) because it was my biological sex, and because I guess society often acts like cisgender is 'default' or something, but it always made me feel weird and I generally tried to avoid the topic of gender wherever possible. I don't really like many (If any) stereotypically "masculine" things, and I've been mistaken for a girl sometimes due to my long hair and relatively ambiguous clothing (Which I never minded usually - I kind of liked it, and probably wouldn't mind switching sex if it was easier and society was kinder). But I never thought too much into it.

When I started learning more about gender identity I related a lot with "agender" and "fluid", because although I don't really like the male gender norms, and absolutely HATE words like "Sir" or "Man" being used for me (I really like gender-neutral pronouns), I never identified as female gender or any other specific gender that I know of. But I'm not sure how to tell definitively and wanted to talk about it. How can I go about reaching a conclusion on my gender identity?

Also, I know sexuality and gender are independent of one-another in many ways but can I be agender or fluid if I'm only romantically (And sexually, for as much as my gray/demi sexuality permits) attracted to people who seem female regardless of their actual gender identity or genitals? (I guess I don't know how to describe my sexuality very well yet either hah...) I thought that people could be any gender identity regardless of their sexuality but I just wanted to check.

Hey, danny. I'm happy to talk to you about this, including as someone who also resonates a lot with agender and other nonbinary frameworks.

There's a different way of framing sexual orientation than what we tend to most commonly use, a way that really ONLY looks at who someone is attracted to, and not who that person is themselves. I actually really like it (probably in part because as someone also outside a felt binary, it makes more sense, but for other reasons, too). It's mentioned here: http://www.scarleteen.com/article/sexual-identity:

Androsexual, gynesexual, ambisexual or skoliosexual: These terms are a different framework for orientation than the framework of heterosexuality, homosexuality and bisexuality, one that can be more inclusive and expansive than hetero/homo/bi and doesn't require the gender of the person who is feeling the attraction to be defined in a given way, or at all. Androsexuality refers to someone who is attracted to masculinity, gynesexuality to femininity (NOTE: This would be you, from the sounds of things); am ambisexual is someone who can be attracted to both or either, or experiences gender as a non-issue, and a skolisexual, someone who is attracted to non-cisgender or non-binary people in general. Asexuality is also included in this framework. This framework doesn't make rigid assumptions about the other person's gender, either: a person can be attracted to masculinity in women or femininity in men, for example.

That might work better for you, too. (Also, how cool is it that people can be more than one of those things, instead of having to pick only one?) But if you want to use the more standard terms and framework, by all means, you can still do that, too. A lot of us who are in similar spots resonate with "queer" in part because it doesn't ask us to work in a binary that isn't true or relevant for us. But for people who feel straight or gay -- or who feel at far poles of who they are attracted to on a binary masculine/feminine axis -- that might not work, and for sure, I imagine trying to figure out where to put yourself in that and how is tricky. Not ever having been on those poles or felt them, I'm afraid if that's where you're at, I don't have much to pitch in from a personal place, but I can talk about it some with you from a less personal one, if you like and that's a thing.

When you ask about how to "tell this definitively," I feel like one of the biggest key things is reminding yourself you don't have to, and probably never really can in a lifelong way -- not until it's all in the rearview, anyway. Thinking of this as getting to a place where you feel good for now, and you find ways to identify that work for you for now is a lot easier, less daunting (I think), and more realistic. Does that make sense?

Hey Heather.

Yeah I totally agree there, that framework is a lot less restrictive than the typical ones and I like how versatile it is! I'm still not sure though, I feel like I have elements of both ambisexual and skolisexual if that's possible. Like... I know I'm not attracted to 'men' sexually (Regardless of whether they're cisgender or biologically female people who identify as men). At all. But beyond that, I'm not sure.

I have no problem with any type of genitalia because I've been attracted to people who seem more visibly 'female' but have 'male' genitals (And I'm totally good with the idea of engaging sexually with that anatomy too in just about any way).

I don't like using the words 'male' / 'female', but I feel like my brain automatically (Without my control) categorises people on a scale from 'male to female' and if they appear closer to the 'female' end, I can be attracted to them, regardless of how they identify by gender or what sex they actually are. Otherwise, not. Like I said, in reality that person could have any gender identity in actuality and any genetalia and I'm still fully attracted to them and open to sexual activity with whatever body they have. (All of this is assuming my gray ace/demisexual aspect allows me to feel any attraction at all)

I'm still learning new stuff too. Like, because I've never been attracted to cis-men I assumed I'd be turned-off by that anatomy, but then I discovered that I was just as interested in many trans people regardless of their biology down there, which was kind of an exciting discovery. But if there's someone who is female biologically but they identify as a man, I'm not attracted to them. But, I am still attracted to people who are biologically female people who are very masculine. Ugh it's so confusing. I feel like it would be kinda cool if sexuality could be depicted as a set of coordinates on a multi-dimensional coordinate plane or something. Totally customisable.

(It only just hit me that all of those sexuality terms you mentioned aren't rooted in the gender of the person, that's so cool! I know you said that, but it only just clicked haha. I guess I'm just used to disconnecting any gender from myself, so... I think I'm agender. Yeah I think I feel good about that. The thought of being a genderless entity without a label that is just 'me' feels so liberating! Gender roles/expectations really suck, to me at least. Thanks for helping me with gender identity! Now I just have to figure out how to describe my sexuality)

Sorry that I'm not doing a very good job at describing things hah, I'm still sorta confused. Being gray ace/demi makes it harder for me to tell too much because it filters a lot of sexuality out sometimes. Maybe I should just forget about it and not bother with a label?

It's okay! Complex identities are...complex! You're allowed to be a complex person, and it's certainly understandable to struggle with really simplified or limited terms and frameworks no matter what, let alone when your lived experience is more complicated, nuanced, layered or just not a fit for what you're trying to wedge it into.

I would say that it's unusual for people's attraction to be based on genitals. Not only are we usually attracted to someone or not before we see them, but even when genitals tend to factor into things for people, it seems pretty clear that a lot of the time, that's more about their feelings and ideas about them than the genitals themselves. (Which isn't surprising when you take a sec and realize how similar all genitals really are, no matter their type: they're pretty much all the same thing.) I don't know if that helps you, but it sounds like something about this has you stuck on genitals, which probably just doesn't have a lot to do with just having the feeling -- if and when you do -- that you want to be sexual with someone. That's usually going to have a lot more to do with a whole person than just a few inches.

No one has to use ANY words for any of this if they don't want, and don't forget that "questioning" is also an identity of its own as valid as any other! If you don't want to use any words yet, though, you don't have to!

Glad to hear you're feeling validated.

You're right, I didn't mean to get caught up with the whole genitals thing, what you said totally makes sense. The person is all that matters, not their anatomy, I guess I was just figuring it out still but I'm not confused about it anymore. I didn't mean to seem like I'm fixated on the subject haha, I feel so embarassed now.

I should probably just call myself hetero-demisexual/gray-ace and agender. I just don't feel like the "hetero" part really does it justice but... I'm probably overthinking it. I don't like how gendered it is though, because I've been attracted to agender/non-binary/fluid/flux/bigender people etc., but those people did all seem slightly more 'female' than 'male' on the surface in terms of appearance, so I probably am just hetereo-demi/gray-ace.

I guess, as someone who dislikes the idea of gender so much, I just wish my sexuality was as open-minded as I am so it makes me feel quite uncomfortable and limited. Is it weird that I feel this way?

But yeah, like you said it doesn't have to be final so I'll consider myself questioning whenever I'm unsure. At least I'm good with my gender identity now though. I've definitely settled on agender.

Oh my goodness, please don't be embarrassed. It may be that genitals ARE part of all this for you. My point was just that I guessed probably not that big of one, so I didn't want you getting hung up on it and making things more confusing for yourself instead of less. It's also certainly okay to think about genitals.

I don't think it's weird to be feeling how you are. I think it's totally understandable. It might also help, too, to remember that these terms are only supposed to be shorthand: they are not supposed to sum up our entire sexualities or attraction patterns or wants and nit-wants. It'd be impossible for a word or two to do anything close to all of that. Words like these are more like, say, words we use for when we want something to eat in the most general way, like, "I want something sweet." Or, "Let's get lunch." There are a lot of different kinds of lunch. There are a lot of different sweet things. Those words are just super-basic words to get you started; to generalize. Words like asexual, gay, queer, agender: they're the same way. They're either a super-brief sumup to someone you don't want to say more to or a way to start a more detailed conversation with someone you do. Does that make sense?

Some people, by the way, will just say something like, "I like who I like," for all of this. Since ultimately, who you're into is only really going to matter to...well, someone you're into, at which point, who you're into is them, I really do think that all of this is only so important unless the terms really do resonate with your identity, so using them also helps you feel seen. But if the words feel like they obscure you instead? Or misidentify you? Eh, screw the words, you know? They aren't required!

I totally resonate with everything you just said! With how I was confusing myself with the anatomy stuff (But I'm not confused about it anymore, I get that genitals don't matter. Thank you for clarifying it and also saying I don't need to feel embarassed), and also your lunch analogy is really informative. I think I have a better understanding now of how sexuality terms don't have to tie you down, but rather give a flexible descriptor where you can still customise all your own specific details; I was taking it too literally before. And I LOVE that description you mentioned how you can just say "I like who I like". That totally feels individually expressive and unburdened by gender or sex. I think I'll use that!

I'll just go with the flow and if anyone asks me how I feel, I'll just talk about it on an individual basis since, like you said, all it really matters to is whoever I'm into. So I can just tell them. You're right that's a good idea! And I get what you're saying by the way, with how some words can help express your idenity and make you feel seen: I like "agender" for that reason. I doubt I'll be using it all that often, but it still makes me feel like I'm not alone since enough people felt the same way to come up with the term and identify with it, you know? Plus I feel like it fits me really well without restricting my identity, or using too many words haha.

I feel like I'm in a much better place now in terms of understanding my sexuality and gender identity. Thank you so much!

I'm delighted to hear you sounding so unburdened. Yay! What a nice thing to send me into a weekend with. Take good care.