Scarleteen

Hello. I am a polyamorous, bisexual woman and I have been struggling with my identity for some time now. I can't help but think that because I am polyamorous and bisexual, I am just promiscuous and undeserving of any real love. I know that it's not true, that I do deserve love, but it's so hard to feel that way when a lot of people constantly sexualize me. To start off, because I'm bisexual, people already assume that I am promiscuous and hypersexual. I've been asked many, many times to have group sex, which I personally do enjoy, but I wish people didn't assume that it's what I wanted just based on my identity. Then, to add to it, the poly label adds a whole other layer of sexualization and sometimes even dehumanization. I feel like people treat me as an object rather than a person sometimes because of these labels, so much so that I'm scared to come out to people now about who I am and what I like or want. People have called me a slut, easy, undeserving of love, etc, because of my labels and not because of what I've actually done or my experiences. They also just see me as a sex toy rather than a person who has feelings and emotions and who is capable of love. I feel like me being a woman doesn't help either because society expects women to be "pure" and when they deviate from that, it's assumed that she doesn't value herself and isn't worth much. I feel like that all the time because of what my family, friends, and partners have told me about my sexuality. I just don't know what to do and if they're right, because maybe they could be.

Hi Herstory,



I'm so sorry to hear you're struggling so much.

As you already know, there's *a lot* of misinformation floating around out there about bisexuality, and about polyamory too.

People's ignorance makes them mean and cruel. This is *not* okay, and people who call themselves your friends or loved ones shouldn't be treating you like this.



So, to be really clear: No, those people telling you that you're less worthy because of your identity aren't right. They're very, very wrong

They also have no business telling you what your sexual identity and orientation mean. You're the only one who gets to define that.



You mention that you've gotten this dehumanizing and objectifying treatment from partners. Can I first check on whether you're currently in any relationships, and, if so, how your partner (or partners) are treating you around your sexuality, or around anything else?

I also wanted to drop a couple of links here, pieces that might help you find some comfort and validate, even just a little, that you are, in fact, okay just the way you are.

http://www.scarleteen.com/article/gende ... _im_a_slut

http://www.scarleteen.com/blog/heather_ ... ies_at_all

Currently I’m in a polyamorous relationship with a woman, although it’s more of a casual relationship. I told her about who I was, my preferences, and my sexuality and she seemed extremely uncomfortable with the idea. I am very open with her and tell her about the other relations I have, but she still feels like I’m betraying her and like I don’t make her feel like she’s special because sex and my body in generally is to only be reserved for her and no one else. I told her one time that I was sending nuded to a guy I was talking to and she seemed playing with it. But when I showed her the nudes I sent him she grew extremely mad at me and called me a whore. She couldn’t believe I had done that and felt completely betrayed by me. I felt so helpless at the moment and I didn’t know what to do. I tried talking to her about how she felt and what she wanted but she kept telling me she didn’t know what she wanted to which I asked her “how can I satisfy your needs if you don’t even know what they are yourself?” She couldn’t answer me. And every time I mention something about my polyamory, she gets offended. I tell her that it’s ok not to want a partner like me, but it’s like she feels the need to be okay with it but I know this is not something everyone can or needs to be okay with. I really like her, but she makes me feel horrible about myself, as I’m sure I make her feel horrible about herself.

You know, what I am hearing is that it's not your identity that has you feeling this way, but emotional and verbal abuse it sounds like people have engaged in with you. I'm so sorry to hear that you've experienced that, and I'm really sorry that it sounds like you're blaming yourself for it -- or who you are sexually -- instead of putting the responsibility with the people who have chosen to be abusive.

You said in your first post, " People have called me a slut, easy, undeserving of love, etc, because of my labels and not because of what I've actually done or my experiences. They also just see me as a sex toy rather than a person who has feelings and emotions and who is capable of love. I feel like me being a woman doesn't help either because society expects women to be "pure" and when they deviate from that, it's assumed that she doesn't value herself and isn't worth much. I feel like that all the time because of what my family, friends, and partners have told me about my sexuality. I just don't know what to do and if they're right, because maybe they could be."

In this next reply, you describe a current partner being, in more than one way, what looks and sounds very much to me like being verbally and emotionally abusive.

Can you think and then talk to me a little bit about how healthy any of these relationships have been where you have been getting the kinds of messages you're talking about and internalizing? It sounds to me like you might be choosing partners or other people to get close to and share intimacies (not just being sexual with them, but giving them very vulnerable information about you and the rest of your sexual life) who are or become emotionally or verbally abusive and may be so buying the garbage they're saying to you as being about you that you're not able to see that what's actually going on here is abuse, or, if not that, at best, crummy people treating you poorly.

Well, I came out as polyamorous and bisexual with my precious partner, but he didn’t take it too well. He said that I was promiscuous and undeserving of him because of my poly label and he sexualized me with my bi label. He would say that it was his fault I identified the way I did and would ask me what he did wrong to see if he could “fix” me. And when he did start accepting it, he started to kind of sexualize me and view me as a friend rather than a partner. He would talk to me about all the hot girls he saw and would expect me to be okay with it. He would even ask if they were people I wanted to have sex with, which made me feel uncomfortable. I’m polyamorous and bisexual, but that doesn’t mean I wanted to talk about my partner’s interests outside of our relationship all the time. It felt a little demeaning and like he didn’t view me in the romantic way I thought he did. He made a lot of assumptions about me rather than asking about who I was or how I felt or what I wanted and it would break me down emotionally.

I’ve told my sister and my mom about my bisexuality and polyamory but they have reacted in the same way. My mom wanted me to hide my bisexuality. She told me not to tell my father unless I was dating a girl and told me I could still marry a guy to conceal it. My sister was generally more accepting of my bisexuality, but she was absolutely intolerant of my polyamory. She told me that if I ever married someone and had a polyamorous relationship with them, that she wouldn’t see them as my real partner and wouldn’t call them my spouse. She also said that polyamory was just cheating and that all I was doing was pretending to be normal by being in a relationship and calling cheating “polyamory”, which didn’t make it right. She thought it was completely immoral and wrong and true relationships are those where people are committed including every aspect to one person and one person only. My mom handled my polyamory a little better and understood that that’s just the way I was and I couldn’t change it, but she blames it for why I can’t have a steady relationship and why my relationships all fail. I can’t even talk to my dad about any of these things because I already know how horrible he would make me feels. He’s already called me a whore, a slut, easy, and other awful things not knowing I am polyamorous. Imagine if I told him u was...

And then there’s my friends. Some accepted it very well, but others saw me in a completely different way after I told them. Generally the ones who took it well are the ones who are also in the LGBT program with me in my school. The ones who didn’t are the ones who were supposedly my best friends whom I’ve known for years. They considered me wild and promiscuous and would tell me their parents didn’t want them hanging around me because I was no good. It made me feel awful.

And then there are other people who I see casually who also objectify me. The minute I tell them I’m bi or polyamorous, the first thing they aslways ask is if I want group sex. They have no interest in getting to know me, who I am, or what I stand for. They just want to use me as a way to achieve their fantasies rather than treating me as a person, as a human being. When I have casual flings with people, I don’t onky want sex from them. I also like getting to know them, having a friendship or some sort of relation with that person because I like getting to know people and I respect them as a person. I tell them that’s what I want, and they say they can give it to me, but then they end up betraying my boundaries and wants and needs and end up just using me for my body with absolutely no interest in me as a person. It makes me feel really bad because I feel I’m never going to find anyone in any context that will love me unconditionally for who I am. I feel undeserving of it and like it’s impossible for anyone to love me the way I am.

Thanks for sharing all of this with me, and I'm sorry to ask you to have to recount painful things.

Some of what you're describing here is about people being unaccepting (like your mother and sister). It sounds like your sister has been emotionally abusive about it, and your mother has just been not great. Some -- like with your ex -- sounds like that weird kind-of-acceptance, but in a really hamfisted, ignorant way. It also sounds like if you set some boundaries with him -- like telling him one you wanted was NOT to share who you wanted to have sex with -- he ignored or violated them, which isn't okay. Some of your friends sound like they were jerks, some weren't (thank goodness). Some of the things some people you are seeing casually (do you mean sexually involved with?) are saying to you are ignorant from the front, which makes me wonder why you're choosing to go ahead and get further involved with them or stay involved. And then, of course, there's someone like this woman you talked about, who is just being abusive. I don't know that people can exactly betray our wants (since no one is obligated to give us what we want sexually or emotionally), but by all means, if you have been setting boundaries other people are intentionally choosing to violate, that's more emotional abuse.

I totally disagree that you won't ever find people who are accepting, aren't abusive in any way, and see you for who you are. But I can totally get why you feel that way given your experiences!

Obviously, you, like anyone else, can't control other people's behaviour. And you -- or your sexuality and identity! -- certainly are not to blame for their behaviour. They're 100% responsible for how they have behaved or been behaving towards you, and that's about them way more than it's about you.

However, I do think there's some more you could do to both protect yourself AND weed out jerks more so that you have more room for the kind of people you want and deserve in your life. Would it be okay for me to share my thoughts on that with you?

Yes, please. I would like to have healthier relationships in my life and a healthier perspective of myself.

And you deserve both of those things!

For one, I think you maybe need to start crafting some solid dealbreakers for yourself, and then stand very strong on not further pursuing things with people or getting away from them when those dealbreakers come into play. It sounds like you don't really have any, or at least not any that could spare you some of the awfulness you've had to deal with.

One big one that I think everyone should have is that if someone doesn't truly accept and seem to be on board with your sexual identity and sexuality -- in ways that make you feel seen and also good about yourself -- then you don't date them. At all. Or you stop, right away. Like, if you're talking online to someone before you go out, or on a first meeting, and they say anything that makes it clear they do not accept you in this respect, or that they're not really getting it or not on board,you're just DONE. You say, "Oh, that's a dealbreaker for me, so I gotta bounce," and that's that. If it comes up when you're already seeing someone, you're going to decide if you want to try and tale it out or not, but again, I think these are things best set at a zero tolerance setting. I think you are very unlikely to miss out on something good with someone who is making you feel bad from the front, you know? Just ditch or get gone when someone is making you feel bad.

ANY kind of abuse should also be a total dealbreaker in my book. If someone is calling you names, to not get trapped in further abuse, you just have to get gone. You can't stay and hope it's going to stop: it never does. Abuse escaltes almost as a universal rule, unfortunately. Maya Angelou said to believe people when they show us who they are: when someone reacts to you like that woman you're seeing is she is showing you who she is and you can see who that is isn't someone safe for you. Believe her. Follow me?

It also sounds like you might need to protect your heart and self-esteem by being more selective about who you talk to about your sexuality or about some parts of it. It sounds like a lot of people are getting a lot of information, including some people (like family) you probably knew from the front were not going to be supportive. How about choosing to stay more private with people you aren't awfully sure will be highly supportive? Why open yourself up to the yucky stuff from others?

I also wonder how you're doing when it comes to agreements in your relationships. For instance, are you making sure to take some real time to make some clear agreements -- including setting limits -- with partners? For example, if you don't want to share with a partner who you want to have sex with, or who you feel attracted to, you tell them about that limit from the front. If you want to be able to, for example, be explicit about how you are being sexual with others (like the sharing of nude images with someone else you showed the woman you're seeing), then you're going to check in with someone about that, and not only make sure that's something they also want before you do that, but give yourself a chance to get a real read on if they truly seem fine with that or not. Know what I mean?

These are just starts, we can dig deeper with all or any of them if you want. I just didn't want to overwhelm you!

I feel like not many people accept my sexuality. Are there really people out there who will love me for all I am, despite my labels?

And how do I set limits from the start. I feel like i do set them but maybe I am not clear enough. How can I be clear in my boundaries, expectations, and limits?

There very much are. And if it helps to know, plenty of us who are poly, who are queer, and some of us who even reclaim the word slut for ourselves have found lots of love and acceptance. But for sure, some of that isn't in our control, and sometimes with the things that are, we have to change some things up to get there, and that usually very much includes doing all we can to avoid or ditch people who aren't loving, kind and accepting.

If you feel like you are clear in setting your boundaries (and we can talk more about that if you want), then from what you've posted, it sounds like what you might need to work on is holding your lines and not putting up with -- including staying with -- people who violate them. In other words, I see a lot of examples of what seem like you sticking around and staying with people who do that instead of getting gone. You can do that with totally elective relationships, like who you're dating. With family, that isn't always so possible, to totally break ties, so what you can do instead are things like, for example, telling your sister that if she keeps talking to you like she has been when you see her, you're not going to see her anymore, and then not going to family things where she is.

How do you feel like you generally do at walking away from (and staying away from) people who are in any way abusive or who are unaccepting?

Im not very good at walking away from people who mistreat me or abuse me. I give people a lot of chances and hope they will change their behavior towards me even though deep down I know they won’t. I don’t know why I have so much trouble walking away from toxic people. Sometimes I feel like I even seek out those kind of relationships. I think maybe it’s because it’s what I’m used to since I was raised in a very abusive and unhealthy home, but I wish I knew a way to stop falling back into the same patterns of hanging around people who don’t respect me.

Okay. So it sounds like -- since you seem to feel you DO set boundaries -- that indeed, what you need help with is how to enforce them, which often includes either you walking away, or you being willing to (and the other person believing you will). That's problematic for a ton of reasons, including that even if you're not seeking them out, if an abusive/toxic person gets the impression someone won't have or hold lines with them, they will usually find you and pick you, because that's what they want.

I agree, that is probably absolutely something you learned from your family growing up: a looooooooooot of us who grew up in abuse and dysfunction have these issues. It's so not you, I absolutely promise. It's also really hard to change, but I can also promise you can change and even after you walk away from just one abusive or shitty person, it usually gets a lot easier to do more. <3

That said, and with this being such a pervasive issue, is this anything you've ever worked with a counselor on? If not, is that something you'd be open to? I can suggest some good self-help books around these issues, and we can chat more about all this as you'd like, but in both my personal and professional experience, ongoing, closed-door work with a therapist is usually the most effective help with this kind of stuff.

I also wonder if you've thought about taking a break from sexual/romantic relationships, and talking about them, even, for a bit? It sounds to me like one you're in is emotionally abusive, so I'd hope you can get your way out of that one, period. But I also wonder if you might benefit from a full-on break, giving yourself time to get over fear of being alone (if that's part of what keeps you with people who are bad to you), to kind of rethink and rest what you want and need, what limits and boundaries you want to set, how you're going to st them and enforce them, and just time to pump up your self-esteem some more without there kinds of seemingly nonstop hits to it. What do you think?

I saw a counselor around 2 years ago specifically about the abuse and trauma I’ve faced in my life, but I feel like I’m reverting back to old habits. I’m seeing another therapist to get that resolved, but it’s been very hard. He’s the 6th therapist I’ve seen and he’s the only one who actually validates me and makes me feel like my labels and preferences are normal and okay, but it’s kind of inconsistent since it’s the college therapist and they have a lot of clients. I think you’re right that I do need a break. Do you have books I can read while on the break? Do you also have advice about taking a break?

That sounds exhausting, I'm so sorry that you've had to go through so many to come near the right fit. Is someone private -- not the college therapist -- an option for you? If you haven't yet seen a therapist who is specifically queer and poly friendly, I think if we could find someone like that for you, even better.

In terms of taking a break, I think what might help you is to first get a sense of what motivates you to date right now. By and large, it doesn't sound like it's because they're positive experiences (please correct me if I have that wrong, though, it might just be you're not talking about the positive ones, so I'm getting a wrong impression). So, if you can get a sense of why you have been pursuing all of this so ardently, despite things often going so poorly, then you can identify what might keep you from taking a break and sticking to it. Once you know that, I'm happy to help you with some strategies. I think even just taking a month off from sex (with other people) and dating might really be great for you.

In terms of some books to read, I have a few ideas about some that might be a good fit for you from what I know about you so far. I'm tossing in a couple I have particularly appreciated as someone who also had some abuse normalized for them and that have helped me get better frameworks for all kinds of love (which has a lot to do with acceptance, including of yourself). I'd pitch you take a look at:

• Where to Draw the Line: How to Set Healthy Boundaries Every Day
by Anne Katherine
• The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing
by Beverly Engel
• What I Really, Really Want by Jaclyn Friedman
• All About Love by bell hooks
• How to Love by Thich Nhat Hanh (for you I'd want you to read this mostly to see what others being loving towards you should look like, so you can maybe really suss out what's not healthy or caring and weed people that aren't treating you with love out)

I also don't know how much you've read about poly relationships and how to do them, but in case the answer to that is little or none, you could probably benefit a lot from more help about how to do all this. I think it's really easy to figure that if we date people who say they are poly or on board, they'll really be on board and will know all that can involve and know how to do at least some of it, but honestly, in my experience, very few people know how to do this well. How would anyone learn without a lot of help and modeling, the latter of which is so rare for people growing up, you know?

So, here are a few books that can help if you want to dig more into that:
• Opening Up: A Guide To Creating and Sustaining Open Relationships by Tristan Taormino
• The Ethical Slut, Third Edition: A Practical Guide to Polyamory, Open Relationships, and Other Freedoms in Sex and Love by Janet W. Hardy (if nothing else, maybe you can put some of your own internal slut-shaming to bed with something that views sluthood as a positive!)
• Building Open Relationships: Your hands-on guide to swinging, polyamory, and beyond! by Dr. Liz Powell

I have been reading some of the books you sent me and they are amazing! They’re extremely helpful, so thank you for the suggestions.

I had another question about this topic. My partner said that they realize that what they said was wrong and they won’t do it again, but after he calling me that word, I felt pretty bad and don’t really see the relationship in the same way. She also doesn’t seem comfortable with polyamory at all and makes me feel like what I do is wrong sometimes. Should I give her another chance or just leave?

Also, I’ve been reading the polyamory book you recommended me, which I think is fantastic, but I find a part of it a little discerning. The author says that some people establish nonmonogamous relationships by setting boundaries on what sex is or isn’t to them, but I think all that they do IS sex. For example, they limit vaginal intercourse and anal intercourse to only being sex which means everything else is fair game, but that doesn’t make sense to me because other acts ARE sex. I understand setting limitations to only certain sex acts, but to seem other acts as “not sex” is just false and pretty demeaning, especially to the LGBT community (like me). I personally don’t like penetration that much, don’t get much pleasure out of it, and it’s not the most intimate thing I consider to do with my partners, but I still call it sex even though it’s not something I feel is sex to me. But I feel like I can’t really say that intercourse is not sex because it’s sex my default. Yet other people can define sex as whatever they want it to be. It makes no sense to me that people don’t consider those acts sex rather than just saying they don’t prefer them. I feel like it invalidates people like me who don’t like the “mainstream” sex. Are there people out there who don’t consider intercourse sex?

I'm so glad they're of benefit to you so far.

In terms of what to do about this partner, I personally draw a hard line at any kind of abuse, including verbal abuse (name-calling is verbal abuse), and also figure that that person is showing me who they are when they engage in the kind of behavior she has with you. I don't ever want to be with someone who treats me that way, and because abuse also often escalates, I don't suggest people stay with anyone who has engaged in any kind of abuse of them.

Those are my feelings about this. What are yours?

Ultimately, I generally figure that when I talk about sex, unless I'm talking about myself and my own sexuality and sexual behaviour, I'm just going to use that word generally and when I do, and it's about whatever sex is for other people -- and by that, I mean whatever is/feels like an expression of a person's sexuality to them -- and I'm going to make few assumptions about that. So, since you've been pretty clear that vaginal intercourse isn't sex for you, you don't have to call it sex for you just because it is for some other people, but if you want to, you obviously can.

I don't think that way of setting boundaries as mentioned is sound, personally, and IMHO, I also think it's usually pretty shady, and frequently not so much about what people really experience as sex or not, but about what they think they can get away with. But for sure, that might not always be the case for some people who do that, and I do also think we all need to be careful of saying what sex is or isn't for other people: we do best being specific about that only for ourselves and what we know for and from people who have shared what it means for them with us, and otherwise being very general for everyone else. Make sense? Does that answer that for you?

I think you’re right about the abuse part. I feel like her saying that shows her true opinion of me and it probably will only get worse. I feel like she pretends to be okay with who I am as a control tactic.

In regards to what sex means to people, I’m a little confused about what you said. Can I really not consider intercourse sex? I feel like I can’t because that’s what sex is for literally everyone on earth.

Also, how do I tell my partner I don’t want to see her anymore in a safe way? Should I do it in person or through text?

I'm not going to enable you in saying that intercourse is sex for literally everyone on earth because that just isn't true. I also don't think that kind of hyperbole is helping you out, you know? Why play any part in enabling something that is causing you such distress? I know you know that isn't true just for yourself, and I hope you know it also isn't for others for reasons like yours as well as other reasons entirely. Presenting human sexuality as universally the same for everyone in any respect will always be waaaaaaaaaay off the mark, including here. I also feel like you know how hurtful it can be to have someone render your sexuality invisible, so I can't imagine you want to do that to anyone else.

You have been very clear in all your posts that intercourse is not something that feels like sex to you. So yes, you get to not call it sex for you when it isn't, just like, for example, someone else can call a cow food or meat, but I get to not do that because that is not at all what a cow is to me.

Will you have to explain that to some people? Yep, you probably will, and I get it's tiresome. A lot of people just don't understand a lot of things about sex, or have frameworks they use for sex (like the idea there is a kind of "default" sex, for instance, and that it's intercourse) that are busted or problematic. But that explanation really can be as simple as something like, "I get you call it sex if it feels like a way to express your sexuality, but it doesn't feel like that for me, so I don't call it sex for myself."

Per safely splitting up, do you have concerns this person will harm you for leaving them? And how would you like to split from them?

I am just afraid that they will try to manipulate me into staying or make me feel bad for leaving. I've had bad situations in the past where I broke up with someone and they screamed at me and made me feel extremely guilty for breaking up with them and I'm just a little scared it will happen again with her. She has never been violent, but she has made me feel bad about myself before and I'm not really sure how I can tell her I want to stop seeing her without it leading to a serious or bad thing.

I just want to stop seeing her. I don't think she really supports me and my sexuality.

Okay. So, it sounds to me like doing this in person or in a back-and-forth exchange will probably be challenging for you in terms of your struggles with leaving people, even when you want to. To me, then, this sounds like a breakup perhaps best done with an email. How do you feel about that?