Scarleteen

I am finally begin to realize that my interactions with a guy were emotionally and somewhat sexually abusive from the beginning. It caused me to doubt myself, not go after my goals and take unfair responsiblity for the wrongful dynamic.

Sexual abuse:
1) Me saying no but having sex without condom for a little bit anyways without any conversation or chat. Continue to have this kind of sex (like it's no big deal for him ) but for me it was and not voicing my needs/going with it caused me to be more invested in a situation that I wanted to.
2) Taking off a strand of hair off my breast during sex like it was the right thing to do without asking for my persmission
3) asking me to "in a nice better-your-self-way" to shave a few stands of hair off my chest b.c that's not good for a women. I think I did it to win approval in an abusive relationship
4)ignoring my needs when i asked for sex and yet when he wanted sex, there was no asking/checking-in to see if was into it. this is different than rape but i knew i could say no and that would be respected.
5) assuming sex will happen without checking with me first. like going to be my room for a "nap" when he had in mind sex. or leaving to go somewhere right after sex without telling me first that he had places to go. so after sex, i thought we would hang out more, but he had to abruptly go somewhere else.

Emotional:
1) Random outbrusts of angry over small things and making me the reason /responsbility of anger
2) Put downs, name-calling, and very high negative/put-down comments to compliment or positive ratio
3) When ever i tried to set a boundary or ask to define the non-relationship, it was met with critism instead of answering my question "I don't understand why you want to be a g/f" <--again that's making it seem like my request was not valid
4) When i asked that i wanted to talk on the phone more, the response was " i already text you more than others, " so annoyance instead of responding with a yes or no.
5) Being unflexiable when i changed my mind and putting pressure on me , yet when he changed his mind, he acted like it was the most f-ing normal thing.
6) no support for me or when i tried to enforce boundaries, more critisim and judgement.
7) Emotionally cold when i was crying b.c i had no other way to resolve this terrible dynamic. no empathy, no "are you ok,what can i do"
8) Silent treatment: Whenever he felt like, he could ignore more in a situation. Then acting like it's the most normal thing while being so warm and cordial to all others even strangers.
9) no real talking about problems. His idea of a solution was " i'll do x, you will do y and that's a solution"
10)Hot/Cold behavior instead of listening to me or my concerns, telling me to just "relax" and "no drama" -using these words to effectively dismiss my own preceptions

coolcats,

Can you give us an idea of how you'd like us to respond to this?

I'm glad you're taking inventory of all of this, and recognizing some clear abuses. I'm not in agreement that all of what you have listed here is abusive, but it also isn't really my place to decide that for you, and depending on what you're looking for here, that may well be beside the point.

Thank you so much Heather.

I feel that there is a thin-line between personal boundaries, keeping myself emotionally safe and away from situation that aren't meeting my needs.

I thought I had a good feel for sexual abuse, but I am now learning about emotional abuse too or at-least, keeping away from situation and people that aren't right for me. I sought a therapist (3 actually in the last 6 months) but they didn't work for me and don't have the energy to find new ones at this time and start the cycle again. So Im talking to a couple of friends as well as coming here.

I think I am looking for some validation/discussion regarding emotional abuse, or atleast emotional neglect or call it what-have-you.

I am also sad that 8 years ago I came to this forum where I first learned that what happened to me was "Sexual assault" and now 8 years later, I am back figuring out what is emotional abuse.

I also have blocked this person from my life but left with some self-judgement of how much "time" i seem to have wasted and how much I didn't acknowledge/value my own needs b.c this "partner" seem to not value or acknowledge them.

In short, I am not sure where I am at. Many thoughts on my mind. I find that this non-relationship paralleled many other basic relationships in my life (Seeing domestic violence/emotional abuse btw parents and my reaction this person was exactly the kind of reaction my mother modeled for me. It's quiet layered and I have sought counseling but many counselors seem to not want to talk about this or don't care and just want to get me off their list b.c I'm a "Free" client")

In my experience, it's pretty unusual for anyone to figure out, all at once, or all in one phase of life, all the ways we have been abused (or have been ourselves abusive) or all the kinds of dysfunction we have been part of. That's not surprising. Not only can we just not take in all the information about all the kinds of abuse and how they can play out all at once -- so overwhelming, not to mention how it can cue trauma -- but how we process all of our lives tends to be something we do gradually and over time, not all at once.

In the event I'm misunderstanding you and you're saying you didn't find or read our information here about emotional abuse eight years ago, I'd be glad to direct you to some of that now, if you like.

I don't say that to invalidate your feeling sad you couldn't have known all at once. I'm saying that just so you can perhaps not feel alone in it and not give yourself a hard time about that in the event that you were.

In terms of the validation you're looking for, I would be glad to talk about or backup-list some of the things you have listed here and named as abuses. I would just want to make sure it's supportive of what you need even though I'm not going to be putting everything you put here on that list. In other words, I'm not going to be able to validate everything you've listed here as a sexual or emotional abuse because I don't agree that they are, and in this public forum particularly, it's important for me to do my responsibility as an educator and not say something is abusive when, to me, it seems more like just a bummer, miscommunication or an unmet expectation, etc.

Let me know, and we can take it from here. <3

Thank you Heather. Sure, I would be interested in getting some validation/acknowledgement so please do back-up list some things that seem abusive to you. Of course, I also did not set some boundaries and speak up for myself but I also wonder if it was bc. I could sense that it wouldn't be met with understanding/support so didn't want to disappoint myself.

Thanks!

You got it.

So, I'm seeing you describe:
• reproductive coercion: him going without a condom when you said no to that.
• other sexual abuse: him having any kind of sex with you (including sex without a condom) you said no to, or did not give permission to (including not asking for permission before doing sexual things to you)
• emotional abuse: name-calling and put-downs, refusal of any of your set limits/boundaries and of you having boundaries, period, and (if I have this right, and I think I do), emotional withdrawal as a form of punishment when you expressed difficult/unwanted feelings.

I'm also seeing a lot of what I would not classify as abuse, but which certainly sounds dysfunctional, either with one or both of you, or in the relationship, all around. I don't know the nature of this relationship, but I certainly hope that if you're not already out of it, you're open to considering leaving it. At worst, it is clearly outright abusive in some ways: even at best, and setting the abuse aside, it still sounds really crap.

Thank you Heather for "confirming" that.

Yes, I do agree that emotional silence/ignoring is a form of manipulative which leaves me confused and wondering what I did wrong or why we can' discuss it. For a long time, I bought their version of the story / their narrative of me and it made me feel depressed. I bought their message that was saying " you are not enough/ u are not good enough as my other frds/others (Was it a race thing? I wouldn't know!) "

I just remember whenever I voiced difficult emotions/feelings, it wasn't meant with any kind of compassion or understanding. It was only half-hearted attempts with the real point was their point of view.

I do feeling crappy , it has taken a toll on myself esteem that i allowed myself this for several years (due to various reasons). I am also coming to term with the fact the blocking this person on social media/phone/email is OK and a good sign, not a sign of failure or something bad. I am coming to term with the reality that this person is suddently and permanently out of my life FOR GOOD and I chose it and I am happy knowingly making that change in my life.

It has also made me aware of other form of "mild" "abuse/manipulation or downright dysfunction" in my other relationships with frds/acquaintance. I feel sad because I have similar relationship with my blood-relatives - realized that my blood-relatives never made me feel heard, and i never felt truly seen/understood in their presence and this again resonated w/t this not-a-relationship.

I think at some level, I believe this experience reflects on me - and it does in some ways as I didn't take better care of my own needs/set better boundaries etc - BUT as you said before very well

"I don't say that to invalidate your feeling sad you couldn't have known all at once. I'm saying that just so you can perhaps not feel alone in it and not give yourself a hard time about that in the event that you were." <--THANK YOU for that.

So the other question: what is the best way to behave when you realize that someone is being emotionally silence as form of punishment? esp if you are on a trip or in a place where you have to be around them for a few days? My knee-jerk reaction is to give into their assessment of the situation and wait on them to feel better/improve? Again they aren't caring for me, so I tend to also desert myself or not be there for myself.

I also just want to be done having these "bad" relationships. *CRY FACE*
I thought this person passed the sexual-abuse test (they are were good at first time, checking in , seem to be looking for consent for words but also asking me what I liked sexually or want to do etc). It seems sad that I was wrong, but this is ok/normal to feel this way , as you so eloquently assured me.

I'm trying to also figure out my own self-care routine now.

I think at some level, I believe this experience reflects on me - and it does in some ways as I didn't take better care of my own needs/set better boundaries etc - BUT as you said before very well

"I don't say that to invalidate your feeling sad you couldn't have known all at once. I'm saying that just so you can perhaps not feel alone in it and not give yourself a hard time about that in the event that you were." <--THANK YOU for that.

So the other question: what is the best way to behave when you realize that someone is being emotionally silence as form of punishment? esp if you are on a trip or in a place where you have to be around them for a few days? My knee-jerk reaction is to give into their assessment of the situation and wait on them to feel better/improve? Again they aren't caring for me, so I tend to also desert myself or not be there for myself.

I also just want to be done having these "bad" relationships. *CRY FACE*
I thought this person passed the sexual-abuse test (they are were good at first time, checking in , seem to be looking for consent for words but also asking me what I liked sexually or want to do etc). It seems sad that I was wrong, but this is ok/normal to feel this way , as you so eloquently assured me.

I'm trying to also figure out my own self-care routine now.

I'm going to start with this, since it was the one question you really asked in your last couple responses:

So the other question: what is the best way to behave when you realize that someone is being emotionally silence as form of punishment? esp if you are on a trip or in a place where you have to be around them for a few days? My knee-jerk reaction is to give into their assessment of the situation and wait on them to feel better/improve? Again they aren't caring for me, so I tend to also desert myself or not be there for myself.

I think this is tricky, because sometimes it isn't always -- or more like it, isn't always only -- about silence as punishment. Some people genuinely shut down in the face of others' strong emotions, criticism, or other things that cue big feelings for them. When and if that is the case, I think we have to recognize that we're not going to be likely to get another response from someone, because they often simply lack the ability to respond differently. In a word, they usually haven't done their own work when it comes to their own traumas or whatever else conditioned them to respond that way. With those people, I think the best tactic is to do what you can to learn not to ask them to swim in the deep end in the first place: to keep things as on-the-surface with them as possible and not let them in to an emotionally close space with you were you need to ask them to have the ability to handle it. Do you know what I mean?

I think it's also really important for yourself to learn to base how you care for yourself on how they are behaving. We need to care for ourselves best of all, *especially* if others around us aren't doing a good job. I know that can be really hard (boy, do I), and it can take a long time, but I do think it's worthwhile to learn. Sounds like you're already starting to work on that: good for you.

Otherwise, when someone HAS the ability to respond compassionately and kindly, to be there for the kind of emotional depth or such you're bringing but what you are saying or doing is just not what they want, not within their control, or otherwise unacceptable to them, so they are very intentionally withholding a kind response (or any response), I'd do all you can to just get and stay away from those people. That is emotionally abusive when it's on purpose -- and not done in a way that's about someone having and setting their own boundaries, which is something else, but also a common reason people withdraw like that -- and when we know someone is emotionally abusive, ideally we do all we can to get away and stay away from them, not spend days at a time with them.

Are you asking about family in that question? It sounds like it, just because it's hard to figure who else you'd feel like you had to spend days with. If it is about family, I'm certainly happy to share some things you can do to start better protecting yourself from abusive family, like some ways you can start to have more limited contact, if you like.

In that question, I was asking about a trip that I planned to take with this person and Day X into the trip, such event happened. Of course I had the agency to book my own hotel/transport and go elsewhere, knowing that mentally, staying with them b.c i had booked xyz or b.c -due to location differences , i woudn't see them again- are not good reasons to stick it out even though my mind may play tricks on me to stay.

I do remember saying on the trip that let's go our separate ways, but the person tried to shut me down again "now you are acting like a victim" with anger.

I came back from the trips very emotionally depressed, not happy and knew that I would have had more fun solo travels. I guess the thing about emotional abuse is that the person can often trick you into thinking their version of the story is correct: ie. I'm the problem...and that's the common reason why many people stay in these kind of relationships. you get enough of a good thing to remind you to stick around/be around but most of it , the other person offering is bad. I recall the blow-up this person had on various times but then acted cool -like let's play a game or do xyz without every talking about what happened/how it will be different moving forward. After every angry blow out, he would give me a hug or something as a placating move so I was left confused on how to do/feel about the bad thing that happened following by a seemly-very compassionate hug, but for him was likely auto-pilot.

How do we discern if someone has the ability to respond but isn't doing that ? V.s they honestly don't have that ability? I believe for my standards, adults over age 30 ought to have that ability as a baseline for social interaction?

I don't think we can put an age on this. This is about what people have learned and also about people's own trauma. For example -- not saying this is how it is for everyone who shuts down in the face of strong emotions, etc., mind, this is just one example -- sometimes people who grew up in abusive households shut down and withdraw around strong emotions because the person or people who abused them expressed strong emotions before they engaged in abuse. In other words, for some people, shutting down and not reacting to strong emotions is a survival skill they learned, and haven't yet been able to unlearn, either because they haven't had the kind of life that supported them in doing so, they haven't had access to therapy, or they are resistant to changing, etc.

All of this is so situational -- who is this person, what's their history, what's their relationship like with you, what is the behavior they're reacting to -- that having a standard around this that's general doesn't really work for me. We also obviously don't want to suggest people aren't allowed social interaction if they haven't worked through all their own stuff: a rare few of us would qualify were that the case.

That said, I DO think having a standard, for yourself, that is, "I am not going to choose to get intimately involved with anyone who doesn't show me they can themselves handle intimacy, including some hard feelings that can happen throughout and that I may express (I'm assuming in healthy ways)," or something to that effect very much IS doable and is a good idea. That kind of standard is more than fair.

It may be that you know right away that someone doesn't have that ability, and so then you'll choose not to get or stay close to them. Or it may be that it takes time for you to find that out: sometimes it does, because situations that trigger that response may not show up for a while OR the person involved may have learned how to behave differently, even though it's not really genuine, you know?

But again, if we're talking about one specific person, and it sounds like we are, it's sounding to me like you're asking about how you should have behaved AS IF you knew then that this person/relationship very much had abuse in it and -- if this was the case, I don't know enough about this guy to know myself -- that this person maybe also lacked some abilities. But you didn't know. And like you said, you also were in the thick of some of the ways abusive dynamics work to make us both not see all that's wrong and feel stuck. Lastly, I don't want us to get too caught up in talking about if a person does or doesn't have the ability to be intimate in healthy ways like it's abstract when it isn't abstract: you know who this person is, and I feel pretty confident you probably also know from being close to them, if they have been abusive in these ways and also HAVE the ability to respond to things like crying without shutting down or if they don't. I don't want us to get sidetracked talking about what isn't an abuse, but a limitation, if what was actually happening here was abuse by someone who has the ability to respond sensitively to crying, but simply chose not to to control/abuse you.

There's no right way to do something now that already happened. That thing is done, and I think it's important for yourself to recognize that you acted how you did them with the person you were then and the information you had then. Now you're not the same person and have more information, so in a similar situation now, you'd likely do things differently. I think trying to go back and redo how you "should have" acted in the past is a lot less helpful than focusing on your present and future.

Thank you heather for that clear-headed reply and for better articulating how to set standards for myself for my own sake.

I will say that if I have a certain standard - if I'm with a frd and she is upset/crying, I will reach out to her to ask her what's going on/show some basic empathy. He choose to ignore/act like it was totally normal to just ignore it and I was too shocked at the non-chalant behavior that i accepted that was the norm. The only time he showed some sensitivity when it was around his friends - I think it was driven by him trying to not look bad or etc.But I try not to psycho-analyze someone else's motives - only my own feelings around it and not silence my true desires on how I want to feel with someone.



"And if you are going to put emotional energy into looking to.....perhaps a better and sounder choice here might be to forgive yourself for making yourself suffer about this. <3" -- That's very well said. I will say that I am still finding some peace around it (but also suffering silently by ignoring my present life etc) - " thanks for letting me come and talk about this.

I think it's a good practice to start having these internal standards (reading people's reactions and then making decisions about what is right/not right for my goals) and start putting them in practice in platonic friendships and family relationships.

On the other hand--- I'm not tried to him by any way--- somehow entertaining the thought they are out of my life, and wouldn't likely have any interaction with the present-him--only a skeleton of his past selves---is _____interesting? I don't know what to make of it. In some ways, it's great to be able to be excited about what or who is around corner (or just being more happy with my own self, and cultivate more quality relationships with keen awarness of who is there to support me and who plain ol'd sucks or doesn't feel good.

I know in the long term and probably in the near not-to-far-future, this will all seem like a blur, something insignficant or an experience that I would from but doesn't have to define me, even if I spend x amount of years around this person.

BIGGEST concern: I feel that I'm somehow ty-ied to shitty relationships, (starting from blood relatives -something out of my control)- where I never learned healthy behaviors and how to feel loved/supported in a way that worked for me. And it appears that I keep repeating the same emotionally-unavailable people --wanting something from them that they can't give--just like fantastizing/dreaming of something from my "blood relatives" that they can't given. Only recently I begin to realize how much this relationship mirror that within my blood ones and recognizing how unheard/uncared for I felt . I know that's not abuse per way but atleast dysfunctional or crappy. So I'm making some changes with more awareness to align myself with the right people that resonate with me (and that will change too as I get to know them more) and cut out the rest.

I hear you on all of this, and have some things I want to offer, but I'm at the end of my workday. I'll pop back in the morning!

Thank you so much Heather. I too need time to digest what we have discussed over and I appreciate you offering some ideas here. Have a great night and see you in a day or two!

Hi Coolcats,

I hope you don't mind my chiming in here with a few additional thoughts.

The pattern you're recognizing, where you feel like your other close relationships contain the same negative dynamics that were in your family of origin, is something that many folks who came from either abusive or simply not-great homes experience. After all, the relationship dynamics we grow up with can set our expectations for how people we care about, or who care about us, act or communicate with us. And even when you recognize the patterns and want to break free of them (which it sounds like you're doing), it can take quite a bit of time to unlearn those early lessons. Do you feel like the things you're doing to help with that process are working for you?

Too, it can sometimes help to think about relationships in terms of what you're looking for rather than what you're hoping to avoid. Of course, people are imperfect, so no partner (or friend) is going to have every single trait you're looking for. But that framework can help you figure out what a positive relationship looks like for you. It can also help shift you away from focusing on the "could haves/should haves" of the past by turning your focus to how you'd like things to go in the future.

I want to circle back to something mentioned earlier, which is the possibility of working with a therapist. I hear you on not having the energy to start the process of finding one again, and if you're not ready for that it's totally okay. But, in the interim, it may be helpful to look at the three therapists you tried out and figure out what was missing in those relationships or what about them didn't work for you. For example, was it the overall style? The techniques they used? Just not feeling heard or seen when you were describing things to them?

Thank you so much Heather. I too need time to digest what we have discussed over and I appreciate you offering some ideas here. Have a great night and see you in a day or two!

Sounds good! I am usually good about asking users in intense conversations if they need some time. I'm sorry that I neglected to do that with you.

I'm off to some superfun oral surgery (ugh), and then a couple days off, so I'll swing by again on Monday and check in!

Thank you Heather so much. I hope you feel better soon with the oral surgery and/or enjoy some downtime.

I didn't want to rush this conversation and all that you have written- take time to read it and also find way to do my own self-care. I know I was writing a lot here, but not really thinking about what was said/or what I wanted to say.
I think my long-written posts may be why you didn't take time to ask if I needed some time.

I'm in middle of grad-school exam season and having troubling thoughts around this that keep interfering with my focus, energy motivation,

I did think about what traits didn't work for me in those therapists - but mainly it was not getting 100% positive regard and like the therapist was on my side or able to really articulate/separate out the issues. I have worked with therapists before several years ago. If I had more time/energy, I would try out others ( i get x number of free sessions) but many times, dealing with a new therapist left me more anxious/worried. I can continue to see one of the old ones but if it's not 100% good, then it's not worth it (also moving locations)/

It can be very helpful to have someone provide some good / template on how to have healthy-thinking about handling with "handling feelings now" and go about dealing with / blue print for future.


I think we already started that by thinking about what kind of relationships(frdships, family) I'd like to be in the future. I can certainly do it here. But also don't take away precious resources (since I'm not past my teens).

Thanks!

So, the thing about therapists and therapy is that a good therapist isn't ever going to be a yes-man. In other words, therapists certainly shouldn't make us feel bad about yourselves, it's their job to support us, after all. But it's also their job to help us grow, and to help us learn to better ourselves and do better for and with ourselves. To do all of that -- including supporting us -- they have to be constructively critical sometimes, too. They have to help us find things that aren't so great about us and explore them. They have to challenge us.

Therapy that's really doing it's job isn't going to feel 100% good, no matter what, for all those reasons, but also because real growth and personal change don't tend to feel comfortable for most of us most of the time, even when they're positive.

Too, I don't know how long a chance you have any of these therapists, but it usually takes at least a few sessions of therapy with someone to get a real sense of what they do or don't have to offer us, in my experience.

I gave one therapist lots of sessions (6-8) b.c I really trust her. I told her that this isnt working for me, so she can adjust but I wasn't being heard. Unfortunately I tried to wait and hope it gets better. So that was 4 months or so. I had worked with this therapist 8 years ago, but she didn't seem to recognize a dysfunctional relationship I was part of then. I don't blame her or anything.

Another therapist - just approach didn't work. Didn't feel heard or connected.Went to her several times b.c she was close and avaiable but she seems to give generic answers and "worksheets" to solve the issue.

Therapist # 3 - I came in for some specific goals but she seems to be off-put by my "anger" - I would appreciate a therapist where I feel comfortable expressing whatever i'm feeling. Saw her 2 times and may try again b.c she is convinent but doesn't seem to work so well.

The other issue is that finding/buildiing rapport with a therapist takes time and I am not in a place where I can invest that much time b. c it's an additional distraction.

That all sounds super fair and reasonable to me. I'm sorry that you're having such a hard time finding someone, and I also understand life not making it easy when it comes to that process!

I have learned is that not all counselors are the same and often have to go through 5 or so to find a good fit. It's really great but once has to find someone we are comfortable/feel heard/understood before can delve deeper. I don't want a push over therapist either but need to feel connected/understood right?

So that's why sometimes come to SCARLETEEN is helpful b.c I can get a clear somewhat objective assessment of the situation . It's not therapy yet a very good sounding board that I trust and benefit from a lot.

I'm glad we can help fill in some of the gaps for you. And yes, I agree, there's a balance to be had with a therapist.

Thanks Heather.

I feel that while therapy is imp and no shortcut, getting some common-sense advice/guidance/conversation from someone trustable/been there / experienced with self-care can give me some perspective on how to arrange my current life/mood/people/emotional care.

--Option 1: I can do that here, but I'm afraid it may be long, or maybe I will be taking time from others. Am not in any rush so can take time to write and respond.

--Option 2: This is kind of off-the-wall but I was toying with the idea if there was a way to book a "session" one-1-one ? ( I was a volunteer-in-training for scarleteen in 2011 but somehow didn't end up contributing as much. )