Scarleteen

I need advice again.

So I talked to Mo today and they said to not be with a guy because it won’t make me straight. And that it’s unsafe for me mentally and emotionally and will leave me hurt and with traumas.

But hear me out, after I cried for a long time at the fact that there’s nothing to make me straight, even conversion therapy won’t work they said . I’m on tinder and there’s lots of guys down and I wanna do it before a girl so I can know for sure.

Mo also said that sex shouldn’t be and isn’t me just opening my legs and letting them do whatever. I get it but like, I also don’t. I know we’ve talked through this before but it sucks and I just want to know. I want to know for sure. How do I hide the fact I’m a Virgin? How do I do it in a car since I’m not comfortable meeting at a strangers house? How do I make it known that if he wants to use a condom that’s awesome but it he doesn’t I’m totally okay with it.

I’m gonna try my best to be sober for it but if they are wanting too and it’s consensual on there end, I don’t care about my feelings. I really don’t want to do it but I have too. And I know the checklists and stuff, I just need to do it. I’ve read so many articles on things and I just can’t stop thinking this.

I asked this girl on a date and this needs to happen before the date because like I need to know if I’m actually into girls fully which I already know I’m only them 99% but that 1% is really messing with my head. I can’t make it stop. I don’t have anyone else to talk to and I don’t really know why I’m typing this because I have to do it but I really don’t that’s why I’m asking for help/advice again I’m so lost and confused :,(

Hi sky,

I'm sorry to hear that you're experiencing this confusion.

I wanted to say though, that what Mo said to you in chat is coming from a pretty solid place: as a member of our volunteer staff, they're only interested in you exploring your sexuality in ways that keep you safe, comfortable, and respected. What you're describing - finding a random stranger, letting them take you wherever, deferring to their preferences (especially not using a condom, which could be a big risk for pregnancy and/or STIs)? That doesn't sound comfortable, safe, or respectful to your body.
Forcing yourself to do something sexual that you're not legitimately excited about and looking forward to is most likely only going to make you feel violated and unsafe, and is almost certainly not going to reveal any concrete answers about your own sexuality, other than When my own sexual needs and wants aren't a part of an interaction, it makes me feel awful. Sex (and sexual experimentation) is all about feelings of excitement, attraction, arousal, and pleasure, and this planned encounter seems to be more about forcing yourself to do something for the sake of "finding out the truth".

To be honest, setting this goal for yourself (especially with a hard deadline), and saying things like "my feelings don't matter" sounds pretty close to a self-harming behavior. The fact that you feel like you have to do it, and can't stop thinking about it is a sign that it may be a placeholder for some other feelings of anxiety, depression, suicidality, or other issues that might make someone want to self-harm. As you know, we really love and care about you here, but we can't be a resource for people who intend to harm themselves (either directly, or in this case, indirectly).

If you want to redirect this conversation, though, I would love to hear more about this 99/1% ratio that you feel like you have. What makes you think that the numbers are that way? What kinds of sexual/romantic experiences have you had that did feel positive, exciting, or pleasurable?
For that matter, why does it feel so important to have that certainty about who you're attracted to? When you think about saying to yourself, "Okay, I think I'm 99% attracted to women, but I'm not sure," what comes up for you? Does that feel scary or invalidating somehow?

I want to back up Al here and be very clear: we're not going to help someone engage in self-harm, and both this post and others like it around this issue have made it very clear to me that that's what's most likely at the heart of this (as well as the possible issue I mention at the end of this post).

By all means, you get to make your own choices, and if you choose to do things that put you in danger or otherwise are or may be harmful to you in any way, we can't stop you. But it's not okay to ask us to help you engage in these things or to endorse them. We're an organization whose central mission is to help our users be part of sex and relationships in healthy ways: it would be both irresponsible and unethical for us to do, suggest or endorse things to the contrary. I need to ask you to please stop asking us to engage in this with you in this way around this.

As Al mentioned, however, there are certainly other conversations we can have with you here, if you want to engage in those.

I do want to add, though, that even IF you had sex with a cisgender man and did not hate it, it would not likely tell you anything at all about how you feel about one particular girl. For that matter, even if you had sex with 20 women and loved it every time, that too, would not likely tell you anything about how you feel about -- and if you want to be sexual with -- another woman altogether. We don't find out if we like oranges or not, or how much, by eating apples. The only way to find out how we feel about a particular person is to focus on that person.

It also sounds possible to me that the focus you have had and are continuing to put on this scenario about sex with people you don't want to have sex with -- and how you say you can't stop thinking about it -- sounds very much like obsessive and catastrophic thinking to me; like a kind of thought pattern that can be common for people with anxiety disorders like OCD. I think it would be a very good idea for you to bring all of this to your/a mental healthcare provider, particularly since even when we have discussed this with you in depth, it clearly has not resolved it for you. I also want to add that I'm particularly concerned this is a mental health issue because I have looked at the conversation you had with Mo yesterday, and your tenor in there, as well as some of your responses and statements, have me feeing very concerned for your state of mind right now.

My apologies Heather, and yes, I have a diagnosis of ocd I never thought this was in correlation. I got used to the reoccurring thoughts so at this point it feels normal. Which I would have believed forever if you didn’t say it’s not.

That 99/1% ratio is something I’ve always been. I initially came out as bisexual because I was afraid but I’ve always been into only girls. I’ve dated men and I didn’t enjoy it. I didn’t like their touch, the way they would hug me and hold my hand, the way they would kiss me, I didn’t like any of it. There was so special emotional thing that happened, I wasn’t really attracted to them either, I thought that thinking “oh he’s kinda cute and likes me I should just do it whatever I’m sure it’ll make me happy and give me what I’m looking for” was a normal thought to have.

I remember I went on a date to see Suicide Squad and I forgot he was even there, I was so into Harley Quinn and I was thinking so many things about how hot she was and wondering what it would be like the kiss her, the credits rolled and I looked over and saw him there and the first thing out of my mouth was “wow she’s hot” it just came out I like completely froze that he was even there with me. That happened a lot in my relationships, I would feel more for a girl walking past me then I did and my relationship or previous relationships.

Sometimes I find myself physically attracted to men, and it confuses me. But that’s it, it’s just like I see someone attractive and I think for a split second “I’d smash” and that’s it. Girls on the other hand, I don’t really think like that for, I can see a girl who is sooo beautiful and I want to kiss her passionately and know her for her and know like her body and the way she laughs when It’s just us two, I want to know what conspiracy theories she believes in and stuff like that. I’ve never felt that for a man, my entire life I never have.

I’ve tried to force it, tried to take the thoughts I have for women and push it right onto him and then I would look at him and realize it’s not the same. I feel like this is a character flaw. I wish that like I could just even be bisexual so that I could give my family some sense of happiness that there could be a man in my future. My family likes to tell me that I’m scared of men and that’s why I think I’m gay.

A couple years ago, I fell completely in love with a girl. I knew right then it was something real and not something fake in my head. I literally fell so hard for her that I asked her on a date and she said she wanted to be friends and I said okay. We went out at like 9 and I didn’t get home until 6am because we were just talking and talking about literally everything. I know we were “just friends” but my feelings never left and I felt so drawn to her and we both shared things we’ve never shared before. I have never felt a smidge of that towards a man still to this day.

It’s so strong, my pull towards women. I wish it would stop. I don’t know how to stop being mad at myself for it. I’ve tried so much to not be into them. Like I can’t even read erotica if there’s a man in it because it completely turns me off. But there’s sometimes a physical feeling for them and it really confuses me. But it’s just physical. With women it’s physical, mental and emotional. I constantly am breaking my heart by throwing myself out as straight and then behind reminded I’m not.

I really do think that you simply have needs we're just not going to be able to meet here.

I can say a bit more later in my day about some of what you've just posted that we perhaps can help with, but I think the very best way I could help you would be to try and help you find a LGBTQ-friendly therapist/counselor you can see to talk about all of this, very much including the more extreme things you have brought to us, like suicidality, and an expressed urge to self-harm in various ways, including sexually, as well as the ways it seems likely OCD/anxiety are potentially getting you locked into certain thoughts or ways of thinking and that it looks like you don't have management tools for. I think that until you are getting good help with all of that on the regular, even the help we can offer you here just isn't going to land or stick, as clearly seems to be the case so far: as you can see, we keep going around in certain circles and patterns with you even when different people respond or offer different kinds of support or help.

Have you yet found someone you can see? If not, are you open to help seeking out that qualified care?

Yes heather I see my therapist again on the 19th. I really don’t want to go. I don’t think I need to. But I’m going because all you think I should and because my aunt practically begged me to go and she’s even helping me pay for it.

Can I check in with you that this is a therapist you feel well-served by, and who you feel is competent and a good fit for you when it comes to talking about your sexual identity and the conflicted feelings you have been having around it? Can I also ask why -- if you do feel this therapist is a good fit for you -- you don't want to go? Do you not feel helped by this person or the kinds of therapy they are doing with you?

I’ve been seeing her for a year before the lapse in my insurance and she’s incredible. She’s very gentle with me and kind and she supports me being into girls she’s always so kind and understanding. Sometimes I feel like she cares too much, she tell me that she cares for me a lot and she wants me to be happy and I just have trouble believing that because no one does. So then I think she just wants to money. And then I don’t wanna go.

It’s incredibly hard. I have to request the days off of work because it’s so mentally exhausting speaking things out loud that are hard. I just hate that I’m so fucking flawed that every single person I talk to on a personal level wants me to go to therapy. That really doesn’t feel good! I don’t think I need to go. I’ve been this way my whole life and I’ve managed.

I don't think it's fair or sound to say that in order to need mental healthcare, a person must be "flawed." I'd say that's a very biased and ableist perspective, and also a way of thinking based in stigma around mental healthcare, something a lot of people unfortunately absorb.

We're not "flawed" when we need physical healthcare, and the same is true here. Why I am particularly suggesting that care for you is that you have been clearly struggling with your mental health, expressing some pretty severe mental health challenges and what sound like mental health issues, and have been asking for help with them. The trouble is, we can't help you with some of them because this both isn't the right environment for that kind of help (therapy being fully private, not something others can read, is pretty essential to good mental healthcare) and we aren't qualified to give it.

That all said, I also suggest therapy or counseling for people when they simply express feeling stuck in some way, and don't want to be. Or when someone says they want someone they can talk to who is just there to listen to them. Or when someone needs an advocate. None of this is about people being flawed. All of it is just about many of us -- myself very much included -- wanting or needing help that mental healthcare providers provide. That's it, truly.

You have also been posting things on the boards and in chat where you are making very clear you are not managing: you have told us this very explicitly, so saying you've been doing fine managing things now when you've told us something very different than that in many other posts is a conflict. You keep coming and asking us for help. That's why we keep suggesting ways for you to find it.

I am really sorry. Honestly I feel like I don’t deserve the help. But I will get it, I promise.

Can I ask you how I go about it? I don’t know what to say in order to get the help I need. Because I’m not that suicidal lately but I’ve been a lot lately. I don’t know how to bring up my sexuality and my gender. I don’t do well talking about things.

I have a tendency of writing her notes about the things I need to talk about because she knows that I do well writing then speaking and she’s happy to read them and then talk about it. But I don’t even really know what to write. There’s so much I don’t really know how to talk about it without being ashamed or feeling awkward.

Is that something you can help me with, or is that overstepping what you all can and can’t do?

You can, but I might need some more information.

Unless I'm misunderstanding -- in which case, I'll need you to clear things up for me -- you have just said you already do talk to them about the things I brought up, and also say you feel they're doing a good job as a therapist, already giving you the help you need. But this now makes it sound like that's not the case.

Can you say more about what help you need you feel your current therapist isn't giving you? Or what you need help with you haven't asked them for help with?

One option with all of this, by the way, that we have suggested to some users in the past, is that you just share your posts here with your therapist so they can read them. (Chat histories from our live chat are also something you can share as transcripts.) We've had some users and therapists find that works well. An extra bonus with that is that if and when a therapist thinks you might be using our services in a way that isn't a good fit for you and what you need, they can also give you guidance about a better way to use them.

She kinda just always gives me the same thing which is I need to challenge my thoughts. I do and I always end up worthless. She knows that. I sit there a lot and tell her I’m fine and she’ll look at me and say “I’m here to help you. I can’t help you if you don’t give me anything” but I’m asking for help in my head she just can’t see it all the time.

I don’t know if I want to share the chats with her. I don’t want her to know me like that. I just want help managing these thoughts. I feel like I’m not normal and that I’m weird. I need actual help on it besides taking a deep breath and meditation and stuff like that. I don’t want distractions I want actual help.

I want help with my sexuality and my gender and my suicidal thoughts. I feel like it’s not possible to get help for it.

I don’t know if this is relevant BUT i used to see a psychiatrist at the same office and she once told me that Julie (my therapist) didn’t like me and that she goes to her office every week not knowing what to do for me because I worry her and that Julie isn’t capable of taking care of me and I need to find someone else. I asked my therapist if that was true and she said she’s just as capable as anyone in that office and she was very sorry I was told that. So I kept her.

I don’t wanna search other options because then I’ll need to start all over again and I truly can’t start all over again. I went through so much trauma reliving it. I can’t do that again. But like I feel like someone could help me more but I really like Julie she makes me feel better but I don’t know if she’s actually helping me like I need.

Hopefully that makes sense

It does, thank you.

For the record, what that psychiatrist told you was profoundly unethical, and whether or not it is true. More on what to do about it in a sec.

So, there comes a time in many people's relationships with healthcare providers where they have to have a conversation about how they feel that person's approaches aren't or are no longer working for them. You sound like you're at that time. It happens.

Mind, it sounds like in this case, it might be about both of you. It sounds like she's told you what she needs from you in order to do her job and like you are either unwilling or unable to give her that -- in this case, if I understand, that is asking her for the help you need. At the same time, it sounds like this hasn't felt like someone you can actually share with openly, for whatever reason. Not wanting to share the kinds of things with her you have shared here sounds like...well, you haven't been sharing with her what you need to in order for her to be able to help you with all you need help with.

I'd suggest you talk to her and let her know that you are not satisfied with the results of your therapy so far and are not finding success with the approaches she has tried (if I understand right, that's things like meditation or breathing). I would also acknowledge that you know you haven't been giving her what she has been asking for so she can do better for you, but that you don't know how to get past whatever barriers you have to being open and honest with her. You can also let her know that however daunting the prospect of starting new with someone might be, you'd like to talk together about your and her feelings about that as an option for you. I would personally also bring up what this other provider said to you, both so you two can address it, but also so that she can talk to this person about their highly unethical behaviour. You also could report them to your state medical board online: https://gls.azmd.gov/glsuiteweb/Clients ... e9107da72c

That's something you can do in a conversation at this appointment on the 19th, or, if you feel moire able to do it this way, you could write down in a letter or email and initially share that way.

I keep hearing you say this person is nice and they care, and that's part of why you stay. But honestly, those aren't good reasons to stay with a therapist, especially because however much we may like them, they're supposed to be challenging us, which means that sometimes we won't think they're so nice. Staying with someone who isn't helping you to avoid the process of finding someone new also isn't a great choice. I get that it's daunting, I do, a lot of us have been there. But I also think it's been made quite clear that that avoidance doesn't keep you from having to feel and live in your trauma: that's going to happen no matter what. Too, look even at the title of this post: you say you don't have anyone else. At the very least, if you were getting anything from your therapist of value, you'd feel your therapist is one person you have. If they don't even count as a person you have to talk about things like this with, then I think it's very safe to say your therapy, for whatever reason, is very much not serving you and it's time to change something.

If and when you do start screening new therapists, one thing you can make clear is that you have found starting therapy very traumatic and disruptive to your life. They can then address that, and work with you to find ways to make that more manageable.

(Just so you know, I personally have to step away from this conversation -- and most other work in our direct services -- for the rest of the day to assure I am able to get other work done that I need to. But other staff will be coming in this afternoon and in tomorrow if you want to continue on this.)

She’s told me multiple times that she’s more then happy to keep seeing me but if I want to seek someone else she won’t be mad or upset and that it’s okay. I still feel bad? I want someone to make me feel okay like she does.

When things are hard I typically have a panic attack and can’t breathe so the last like 10 mins she talks with me and will have me ground myself with her and I like that.

I feel like I tricked someone to care about me and another therapist I won’t be able to trick into it. I don’t know if she isn’t helping me or if I’m just overthinking. This is really fucking hard. Living is so confusing

As people who have trauma and have sexuality questions or confusion and gender things, is there actually help? Is there actually something out there? Because honestly a lot of times I feel hopeless and like I’ll never be able to get better.

Promise me that there’s actually help. If there is.

Hi sky,

As Heather mentioned above, yes, swapping therapists due to finding a better fit and/or because their approach is no longer working for you is a totally typical thing to do and I agree that while finding new mental healthcare is daunting... it's often quite worth it. Nobody likes wasting their time, including paid professionals, so if you aren't getting anywhere with her then by all means, make a change.

There is absolutely a ton of effective help and support out there. I know this personally, via friends and family, and professionally as well. It seems like the piece you may be missing is how actively you need to participate in receiving help and support: no one can just shower it all over you -- it isn't magic. You need to be an active participant (which is hard work). You keep coming here, despite directly telling us that we cannot help you at times, don't know you, etc. We have told you that our service is not an effective way for you to receive certain types of help and you keep coming back anyway.

You said in this thread that you wouldn't want to show your therapist your chat history with us because you don't want her to know you like that -- but here you are, here, asking and sometimes begging for this specific help. I see a major disconnect here.

So, yes, there is IS help and support out there, and it's effective and can be life changing. It won't work, though, until you effectively participate in it.

Hi sky,

I'm really new to this forum.
I have mental health issues and I'm genderqueer. It took me a really long time to come to term with being genderqueer and accepting it.
A couple of big things that really helped me was getting a therapist who specialized in LGBTQ+ and trauma. They helped me work though a lot of stuff (but not going to lie, it was hard and a little scary)

The other thing was learning how to ground myself when I started having those spiralling thoughts. For me that means singing really loudly and doing something physical or occupying my mind by watching a movie or researching something I'm passionate about. Maybe for you it could be a strong sensation like drinking ice water or chewing on something sour.

Also having in person LGBTQ+ friends helped me feel safer and more secure in myself but I do honestly believe that I needed all those things at the same time in order to get my brain on the right track

Hi PokeyPancake and welcome to Scarleteen.

People post in this section of the message board because we label it as staff replies only, as some people prefer this for various reasons and we want to maintain that boundary so please check that first, next time. Your thoughtful reply, however, is sound and appreciated! I am looking forward to hopefully seeing you interact more around our message board in the open and not staff only sections (so, most of it). If you have any questions about this, please don't hesitate to let us know.

Yeah I fucking suck. I’m sorry. I won’t come back again.

Sky, you are absolutely welcome to post here as you'd like, but are, of course, under no obligation to keep doing so. The way we do this is that we make posting and interacting here something that's up to the user. No one is obligated or required to post here. We don't beg people to stick around if they don't want to be here or say they'd like to go, and that given, it's very difficult when people try and put us into a position where we're expected to tell them to stay.

You get to choose what you do about your participation here, that's up to you.

If you do stay or take a break and come back, though, I need to set and hole a harder limit on the kinds of statements/posts like the "I fucking suck" up there. Whatever you intend (or don't), that way of talking here is problematic beyond the issue I've brought up before, where we just aren't open to being a vehicle for people to put themselves down, and where we ask people not to do that because our interest is in helping our users feel good about themselves, not helping them to feel lousy. Negative self-talk-made-public also has a very negative impact on others who read it.

But it's also a problem in that it's manipulative, because it's the kind of statement that tries to force or coerce a reply, and a very particular kind of reply, from anyone who sees it. If I say to you, "I'm so terrible, Sky," you're probably going to feel very compelled to tell me that I'm not, even if you're trying to get a little space, or keep a boundary, or if you have other things you really need to use your time and energy for at the moment, even if you don't want to be in the kind of relationship with me where you're someone there to validate me, and even if you don't actually *want* to tell me I'm not terrible, for any number of reasons. As you know, because we've been very clear throughout, we don't believe or think you suck. Pushing us to respond to this kind of stuff again and again by continuing to say things like this isn't okay.

I'd say saying, as you have before, that you won't come back here, is very similar in all the same respects.

I'm going to try make this easier to manage for you and for us -- this isn't a punishment, just one way we can effectively manage patterns like this around here, because we have to manage things as part of running this service -- and move your posts into moderation for right now. We just won't be okaying (publishing) posts with this kind of stuff in them, but we'll be happy to okay posts/replies where we can have a healthy dynamic on the whole, and where what you're asking for and how you're asking are such that we can probably help you out and have conversations that don't devolve into this kind of dynamic, which just isn't very manageable nor beneficial for anybody. I think that between us doing that and you being more thoughtful about how you post, including around limits we've set or asks we've made, we can probably improve this without any great discomfort on anyone's part.

Why is it you say it’s okay that I talk here. But “You keep coming here, despite directly telling us that we cannot help you at times, don't know you, etc. We have told you that our service is not an effective way for you to receive certain types of help and you keep coming back anyway.” Was said by Alice.

I don’t ever really recall seeing that I shouldn’t come back. And I don’t mean to “sometimes beg for help”. I’m not a manipulative person. Maybe I am because I’ve picked up on the ways since I’ve been manipulated by my mom my whole life and I never knew that. I am not asking for you to say I don’t suck. I just said that because quite frankly what Alice said came off pretty rude.

I literally don’t have anyone besides my aunt who knows all this about me. She doesn’t really understand mental illness or understand the internal homophobia. She tries her best but sometimes she just can’t give me what I need. It’s rude of me to think that you guys can.

I just don’t know how to advocate for myself to get the help I need. It’s scary and it’s hard. You have said you’ve been to therapy and mentioned it to me so I thought that I would ask. The initial post, at the time I didn’t see anything wrong with it. I see what’s wrong with it and me now. I was in a weird headspace when I wrote it. I’m not trying to make an excuse or fawn or manipulate. I just, am in a different state of mind from the person who wrote that.

I do often seek self harming behavior, I stopped doing it physically to myself and I didn’t realize things like I originally stated are self harming behaviors. I thought they were just normal behaviors. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Now, I can be more self aware of the things I do that cause me harm.

And I didn’t notice that at the start of this you said that you were very concerned about my state of mind. I honestly don’t even remember really what I said in the chat with Mo I remember bits and pieces and crying a lot.

I’m sorry that I made you be concerned, that wasn’t my intention. I just stated how I felt and I guess it’s not a healthy way. I really didn’t know how much my head was messy until I started to talk in here.

My deepest apologies to all of you on here.

Heather and Alice's comments are actually in line with one another. Alice is pointing out the pattern in which we have established what kind of help we can and cannot offer you, including Heather pointing out in this thread that the best next step for you to get the support you need is to continue working with a therapist (too, her comments are coming from a place of being honest with you about the patterns we're seeing in our conversations here and the realities of how change through therapy occurs). I believe Heather included their statement in part because they did not want you to feel that the boundaries we're setting mean you can never post here, period. They simply mean that there are things we can help you with, and things where we've been explicit that we're not the place to get that help, and if you have posts you want to make in that first category that's something it's still okay to do.

If something you're struggling with in therapy is knowing how to advocate for yourself, the tools in this article can help you start learning ways to do that: Process This: Getting the Most Out of Therapy

So, this morning I realized I didn’t think about anything really when I said this or talked to Mo. This morning I realized the person/people would see me naked, I never thought about that somehow. I realize I didn’t think about anything, I didn’t think about my safety or anything. It is okay that I’m not ready for it and it’s okay that I want to have sex with others besides cis men.

I’m sorry I came here with this, but I realize that I don’t know the person who typed that original post. I decided that I am going to bring this up in therapy. I’m not sure how the hell im going to do it or figure out how to bring it up to her. But it’s something that needs to be done because it’s not healthy that I’m thinking that way.

I’ve been off work for a few days and I’m gonna be off for about another week because of some medical issues so I’ve had a lot of time to think. You all have been right. I don’t think I was in mania at that time, I don’t know exactly what was wrong with me. I don’t mean wrong with me in a negative way.

I go on Thursday to therapy so I think I am gonna write down some points to bring up so I don’t get anxious and forget everything. I’m able to talk to her about this stuff right? It feels weird and wrong?? It’s hard to talk in person about things