Scarleteen

Hi! I haven’t been here in forever and I know I’m not exactly the age range for this website but this is the most inclusive, sex positive site I’ve found and it’s one of the few places I feel like I can truly be myself and not worry about being judged. What I’m writing now has been on my mind recently and I was looking for advice.

I know I’m a feminist because of my beliefs but sometimes I feel fake. I still have a lot of internalized sexism. In the grand scheme of things I know everyone had internalized prejudice one way or another (you can’t really escape it) but realizing just how much I have to unlearn is really bothering me.

I’m in my last year at college and I’ve spoken about issues through activists groups on campus and am a member of our feminist student alliance, so I feel like I should be a “better” feminist. But I still have a hard time speaking out when people say sexist stuff to/ around me.

A lot of people (especially men) will make generalized comments about women being overly emotional (somehow in heterosexual relationships it’s ALWAYS a woman’s fault if the relationship goes wrong because she’s overly jealous/clingy/rude/ doesn’t want to have sex/etc.) Even comments that aren’t about relationships seem to paint women as having emotional issues and being an unpleasant person FAR more than men. I suppose I could say this is because there are more women at my school than men but that doesn’t sit well as an explanation to me.

A lot of it is so casual too which really bothers me. Like men use “b**ch” so much in casual conversation even when not referring to women. But I just find the idea of calling someone a name that was used as an insult specifically to women problematic. It kind of goes along with the whole “women are worse than men” mentality I feel like I’m getting from many men (and some women who I feel must have internalized these thoughts like I have.)

One guy even made a comment the other day that really stuck with me and still bothers me. He was talking to a friend (I was in the general vicinity) and the friend said that this girl was being rude or whatever. He said something like “better hit her now before they make it that men can’t hit women anymore” (not that those were the exact words but the sentiment was like that).

This made me feel so uncomfortable and even guilty to be honest. I started thinking that he was right since I know people don’t take women assaulting men as seriously as men assaulting women (even though that in itself has sexist connotations and women aren’t even taken seriously most of the time when they report assault.) I also feel like the comments about women being “high maintenance” or whatever in relationship rings true. That could be because of my insecurity with not being in a relationship and fearing I would “mess it up” somehow but with all the comments I hear about men complaining about things women do in relationships (general things that are problematic regardless of gender) I feel like it’s gender issue which somehow makes it feel like a me issue.

I said all that just to ask how I can overcome these thoughts I’m having. I know I can’t make sexism go away, but it bothers me and I know it bothers other women, but I’m so insecure that I don’t even speak up. I feel like my defense is weak and somehow I would be wrong if I argued with the comments being made. Writing it out I realize that it makes sense why I’m bothered and what I’m seeing is sexist, but when it comes to voicing it I struggle.

Thanks for reading my long rant

Hey thewrit3r:

First of all, you are totally welcome here. We're glad you came here to ask your question!

I want to begin by affirming that, when you are bombarded with sexist comments and behavior from the folks surrounding you, questioning your sense of reality is natural - and does not make you sexist, necessarily. In fact, I think that you've demonstrated a lot of self awareness here, as well as a lot of will to change. That doesn't scream "internalized sexism" to me. It just feels like the sexism around you has infiltrated your subconscious and you are actively trying to get it out of there. I'm so with you!

This is a major issue with toxic masculinity - it spreads aggressively. It scares the folks it oppresses - e.g. everyone - into silence or compliance. It is hard to stand up to people who are joking about committing violence against women when you are a woman quite literally within swinging distance.

If I may, the question here isn't necessarily have you become sexist, but how can you be an active bystander? How can you defend yourself and others? How can you practice a more compassionate culture and model it for the folks around you?

In my experience, this work starts at home. Practicing self-compassion is really important when you are a part of the targeted group in situations like this. Ask yourself why hearing these things is triggering and how you can care for yourself in moments when you hear such incensing things. Maybe that means allowing yourself a pause for a deep breath before you decide whether to respond. Maybe its removing yourself from the situation until you feel you've calmed down enough to pull folks aside and discuss privately. Maybe its even giving yourself an out when something is too triggering to deal with head on.

Then comes the bystander intervention piece. When do you need to stand up to this nonsense? Where can you make a difference? When you feel able, just hearing someone intervene may positively impact someone you didn't even know was listening. If you're not up for confrontation in a given moment, you can just abruptly change the subject. Sometimes that will hit the message home. If you see someone being aggressively misogynist toward another woman, you can even just move between them and engage her so she can break from the conversation. Pretend you're a friend from class! Tell her you like her sweater!

What makes you think that your arguments are weak in these situations? What do you think counterarguments would look like if you asked people to stop being sexist? Don't get me wrong, I'm a member of the Impostor Syndrome Club, but it seems like you've thought about and worked on these issues a lot. I'd love to dig deeper so that we can remind you of your strength when this happens. <3

Just want to chime in and say you are totally welcome here, and there's no problem with you being the age you are! Even though Scarleteen started as something mostly for teens, over the last 21 years (!!!), as things have shifted, including culturally, we have with it, so we focus now on people in both their teens and all of their 20s.

Hi, Alexa,

I often find that just venting out my feelings helps get me out of a rut and reevaluate my feelings and this really helped, so thank you so much for listening

(And thanks Heather for the message! I appreciate everything you all do at Scarleteen ))

To answer some of your questions, I think I do need to evaluate the situation to see if it’s simply a matter of changing the subject or telling someone why what they said was offensive. I’m mostly afraid I’ll go on a soliloquy on sexism and how casual it is that no one will actually want to listen to me.

I did try to speak up once. A few years ago, someone made a comment and I asked them why they said that, trying to point out that it was sexist, and they didn’t take it well. They got pretty mad at me and got pretty defensive, and while I think some of the other women backed me up, I didn’t feel fully supported because I was in a room where the men outnumbered the women. So I think I got intimidated by that.

And honestly as bad as it is, I’ve been listening to counter arguments that are anti feminist. I know a few people who are conservative and I try to see from their point of view, but it’s so hard when they make bigoted statements and they claim it’s just a political difference in beliefs and I can’t deal with that if your belief system says I shouldn’t have certain rights because of my gender! So I think part of the problem is that I try rationalizing this viewpoint and feel like I have to appear less “radical” to appeal to someone who’s not very open to hearing my beliefs. But if that’s the case I guess I can’t argue with them. I know I can’t change people’s opinions but that doesn’t stop me from wanting to because prejudice just sucks all around and I think we would all be happier if we let go of these thoughts.

Part of me doesn’t want to admit that there’s so much sexism in the world because it makes me pret angry when I realize that it happens far more than I realized. And it’s with people I know! So that’s really disconcerting.

As far as sticking up for other women, I’ve wanted to but I’m afraid of overstepping boundaries. Mostly it’s people I don’t know so I’m not sure how to approach them, even to help, if they don’t know me.

Hi thewrit3r,

I feel you big time on the "if I admit how much sexism there still is in the world I am going to be angry all the time." There are definitely days where it all makes me feel ready to go full-on Feminist Hulk.

Can you give me a sense of how much reading or other experience you've had with bystander intervention? I ask because some of the tools in that might help you with your worries about overstepping the boundaries of other women you want to support. Those tools can also help you in situations where you speak up and the person you're calling out reacts badly (sad to say, most people jump to be defensive when called out on things like sexism).

One approach I use when it's people I know (and who I don't want to cut ties with completely) making these comments is to focus less on changing their minds (even though I think that's a good goal, sometimes I am not the best person to achieve it) and more on getting them to not say those things around me, specifically. It forces them to break the habit at least some of the time, and means I don't have to listen to sexist statements. If you think that's a boundary you want to set, we can talk more about ways to do that.

Hi, Sam,

I really do feel like I’m angry all the time when I think about all the sexism (not to mention racism and other discrimination in the world) is and at this point I think it’s a matter of channeling that anger into something positive. I actually found the feminist club on campus nice. It feels like a safe space and people relate to what I feel a lot. The same goes for the job I have on campus for my school’s gender studies and resource center (I work at the front desk and I often interact with the staff there and they are feminist and have similar beliefs to mine). That may be a good way to channel some of my rage because I am angry and just a passionate person in general lol.

I did take a crash course through my school’s interpersonal violence center on being a good bystander, but it was a few years ago so I would probably need a refresher. I thought about taking it again but it often interfered with my class schedule, but I’m taking less classes this semester so maybe I’ll be able to take it again this semester. I really do think what they apply there applies to being a good bystander is (I remember they talked about ways to intervene if you’re not confrontational.)

Ah, boundaries. I have a complicated relationship with them. Well it’s not complicated so much as I worry I’m being too much by asking for them. But I tell my friends it’s okay for them to set boundaries so why shouldn’t I treat myself the same way? I really like this idea and it is important to set boundaries. And honestly if people don’t accept them that’s not me being unreasonable, it’s them not being respectful.

You.
Are.
Not.
Too.
Much.

Just a clear reminder.

(I'm angry about all of this all the time too, btw. It's hard to live with, for sure!)

Yep, you're absolutely right that someone reacting negatively to you setting a boundary says a lot more about them than it does about you. Nobody is too much simply because they ask to be treated with respect (or ask someone to, say, not insult a category of people they belong to while talking to them). If you never need help figuring out approaches to setting those boundaries, that's definitely something we can brainstorm here.

I think channeling your anger into activism or working for causes or groups related to gender issues is a great approach. I know that for me, personally, finding a few ways to address the issues that make me angry gives me back some sense of control.

Thanks Heather it’s nice to know that I DO have a right to respect and that my feelings are 100% valid

I’ve actually never really set boundaries with people, so how would I start? Would I just say, “hey, I’m not comfortable talking about X; can we talk about something else?” I feel like that could be seen as me just not feeling comfortable talking about something at that time but not all the time/most of the time, if that makes any sense. I feel like it would be rude to say “I don’t ever want to talk about X” but I’m not sure how to get that across in a way that’s respectful.

I think with activism I want to get more involved in general. I’m always nervous to take on a leadership role because I have to help guide people and that intimidates me (I’m always worried I’ll “mess up” someone) but I think that would be very empowering. I’m graduating this semester and I’ve been thinking I want to do some activism after graduation as well, possibly into my work since I can’t see myself not working a job that helps people. I follow several organizations but I have no idea how to get involved with them regularly when I graduate. It just seems so much easier to be involved when you’re in school and I’m not sure how to keep that momentum up when I’m not. (I know that got more off topic but it’s something I’ve been thinking about lately.)

Thanks for all of your responses. It’s so nice to talk to people who understand what I’m feeling. I’m really looking at cutting some people out of my life who don’t provide the same support because I’m starting to realize just how much my inner circle influences me. And in every movement there’s strength in numbers

You are so not alone!

You know, I think the phrasing you suggested for setting boundaries is a great start! Starting with "I don't want to hear this right now" is also a good stepping stone to "actually, I don't want to hear this ever". As long as you're straightforward about it making any simple "no" statement is perfectly respectful so I don't think that's a thing you need to get bogged down in. You don't have to justify yourself, and if anyone makes you feel bad for setting a boundary then that's more an indicator of their character than about you doing it wrong. What do you think?

Side note on the bystander conversations you were having before: we have a great zine on bystander intervention that you can take a look at and share right here.

It's great that you're thinking about how to get involved with the causes you care about (side note, if leadership interests you then go for it - don't let impostor syndrome stop you!) and perhaps a good place to start is delving into the nitty gritty of what some of the organisations you follow do, seeing if they have careers or space for volunteers and doing some research into groups that exist in your local area.

I like that you've brought it back to strength in numbers, because you're absolutely right that it's the communities and networks and movements we build that influence not only us but our world. If there are some relationships that aren't supporting you and you want to take a step back from them to focus on the ones that do then go for it. Have you got some close friendships where you do feel supported and can talk about these things?

I do think that would work. I’m working on being a better advocate for myself which includes respecting that my need for boundaries is perfectly valid. Honestly I’ve been spending too much time on the internet and sometimes around other people in person where most of the sexism/hate is coming from. I want to “convince” people to change but again I can’t, and it’s just a toxic environment for me, so I’m going to stay away from that and just focus on more positive spaces for myself.

I haven’t really talked to my friends about misogyny but I know some of them have written on social media pointing out the discrimination and I have at least one friend I know would actually get what I’m feeling. Again I think I haven’t been surrounding myself around more positive environments so I think looking into that will help.

I love how there’s a zine for bystander training! I tried downloading it on my phone but it wouldn’t. Does it work better on a laptop?

Thanks again for everything everyone’s said here. It’s just reminding me I need to keep positively reinforcing myself and surround myself around supportive people. I often feel like I should be kept abreast of the awful things happening in the world, but that often makes me feel awful myself, and seeing others agreeing with the awfulness makes me feel even worse. So that’s a boundary I’ll have to make for myself, which I’m totally okay with

Yep, I just tested the zine and it looks like it works way better as a desktop download than a mobile one. I'm talking things out here has been helpful, and go you for taking time to figure out what boundaries you need to set! I've definitely had to renegotiate my own relationship with things like social media or other channels where you tend to get bombarded with awful things that make you feel awful. It's been good for my overall well-being, and honestly it hasn't cut me off from the things I really need to know about.

It’s been awhile since I posted here but I just wanted to thank everyone for their input. It’s so so nice to talk to people who see and hear me as a person. So many places on the internet (and where I live) aren’t very inclusive and this has got to be one of the most inclusive spaces I’ve found online. I honestly wish I had found it back when I was in high school (it would have saved teenager me a lot of angst) but I’m glad I’ve found it now and it’s still helping in a lot of ways. That was super long but I just wanted to say again that I really appreciate everything you all do here at Scarleteen

I'm so, so glad you've found a space you needed here <3 We do whatever we can to make the boards safe and inclusive, and it means a lot to know we're succeeding at that!