Scarleteen

Hi all! Hope everyone is doing okay This quarantine has got me doing a lot more introspective work lately (more than I already was doing before this pandemic!) and a lot of questions have been coming up for me.

So, long story short: before lockdown, I had met someone through a dating app and we were seeing each other for a couple months before she randomly decided to ghost me. It definitely hurt a lot — especially since I shared a lot of personal things about myself with her, and she seemed genuinely interested in seeing me — but I’m still working on fully accepting that her behavior is not about me.

To be honest, this experience has got me pretty wary of meeting other potential partners online (and I tried a virtual date recently and idk.... I’m sure it works awesomely for some people! But I realized it’s not for me.) Like even if I’m scared, I don’t want this experience with this person to discourage me from finding someone, you know?

After we’re allowed to finally socialize/leave our houses on the reg, I’m kinda wondering what are some ways I can meet potential (queer) people to date in-person? I’m sober, so gay bars aren’t really my thing— I only go if my friends are performing in a drag/burlesque show.

I definitely have social anxiety and am very much an introvert, but for some reason friendships are way easier for me to find than romantic/sexual relationships (haven’t had a lot of luck in that department, but there are a lot of reasons for that which would take too much time to get into). Actually, now that I think about it... I think I generally have way more confidence in making friends than dating.

If anyone has any advice on all this, let me know! I hope everyone is staying safe and well during this trying time. <3

Hey MusicNerd,

I'm sorry you had that experience on a dating app. That's not fun. It's unfortunate that people use the internet to protect themselves from important conversations with other folks.

I feel you -- finding queer scenes outside of bars can be difficult! I'm not sure what the area you live in is like, but are there things like queer intramural sports teams? Arts classes? Performance art, music shows? The local LGBTQIA book club? There are definitely tells for which of these may skew queer. For example, Mitski concert? GAY. Hehe.

Events and especially recurring activities, like sports & art classes, are great ways to meet folks. If you are in or near a city, there may also be queer events that are explicitly sober for folks who are in recovery or just not interested in drinking. What does your area's social landscape look like in general?

Alexa wrote:Hey MusicNerd,

I'm sorry you had that experience on a dating app. That's not fun. It's unfortunate that people use the internet to protect themselves from important conversations with other folks.

Hi Alexa! Thanks for responding. Yeah totally, it definitely was not fun. Just trying to remember that I too used to be a very conflict-avoidant person, and that when I was avoidant it had nothing to do with the other person. (Sometimes I feel like it might be karma idk)

Alexa wrote:I feel you -- finding queer scenes outside of bars can be difficult! I'm not sure what the area you live in is like, but are there things like queer intramural sports teams? Arts classes? Performance art, music shows? The local LGBTQIA book club? There are definitely tells for which of these may skew queer. For example, Mitski concert? GAY. Hehe.

I know, right? Mitski concerts are probably SO gay!! hahaha

But now that I think about it, I have been getting back into drawing lately, so it’s possible that I could find an art class. That’s not a bad idea! I also feel like it’d be more of a low-pressure, chill environment, which would be nice.

Only thing is that in social settings, I’m just like... when I see someone I think is attractive, and who I’d like to get to know better even in just a friendly way, I tend to be less likely to approach them and say “hi”. Idk I guess I find them too intimidating? So that’s another thing I would need to work through as well, because when I’m not attracted to someone I’m a bit more likely to go up to them.

Alexa wrote:Events and especially recurring activities, like sports & art classes, are great ways to meet folks. If you are in or near a city, there may also be queer events that are explicitly sober for folks who are in recovery or just not interested in drinking. What does your area's social landscape look like in general?

So, I live in a major city that definitely has queer community, but there aren’t too many sober events for us. (I’m truly struggling to think of a time when there’s EVER been one in my city, besides the occasional AA-related events which aren’t queer-centric). It would be nice if they did have some queer sober events though!

(Oh, also forgot to mention for clarification: the person I met through a dating app was someone I was seeing in-person as well. Like we connected on the app, but then we had all of our dates in real life. So she ghosted even then. But yeah, that’s not as important of a detail as everything I responded with above!)

Hi MusicNerd,

It sounds like you have an excellent friend group, and some ties to the queer community in your city. What do you think about starting one of those queer sober events? It could be as simple as "queer picnic in the park" or "queer bowling" - anything! In my experience, MANY queer folx crave events and community that don't involve alcohol, so I bet you'd have quite a turnout. If it sounds a bit too anxiety-provoking, maybe some of your friends could help you put it on. What do you think?

Hi Amanda! OMG, so sorry for the delay!! Lots of not-great things have been happening on my end recently, so I got distracted by having to handle all that.

But yeah, I really like the idea of doing a picnic, since it would automatically be a sober event and a nice way to meet people in a low-pressure way.

I think one thing I’m gonna really need to work on is showing interest in people I want to be more-than-friends with. Like, friendship? Totally fine! I find building friendships to be easy! But trying to move it past that point after getting to know someone? Totally clueless, totally scared, and I always chicken out of saying anything because I don’t know what I’m doing.

Idk I guess I’m just worried that like... even if I do meet someone I like at a class or picnic or something, and we become friends, I wouldn’t really know what to do from there. I feel like I never got a manual on how to be normal and it makes me feel like I should know what I’m doing at my age. You know? So I’m not sure if you’d be willing to offer any insight on that, but let me know! I feel really stupid asking about this sort of thing, but I’m totally open to any advice on that front.

Hey MusicNerd,

No worries! How are you doing? Are these pandemic-related not-great things, or other stuff?

Making that transition from friends to dating can be a bit scary, and also exciting! Your questions aren't stupid at all - it's perfectly normal to be unsure of how to connect with people in this way. It's not something we are really taught to do (and that especially applies for folks in the queer community). It may take a bit of experimentation on your part, but that's ok - experimenting (in ways that are kind to ourselves and to others) is a great way to learn more about ourselves and the world.

Becoming friends with someone first is a great way to start, because you're already forming a connection - so you're doing fine! Here are a few guides for moving past friendship:

This short article from Sex, Etc. gives a few tips on how to ask your crush out. First Moves: How to Ask Someone Out

Mo also wrote an advice column about asking someone out. The original writer wanted to ask a guy out, but the advice from Mo applies regardless of gender! How do I ask a guy out?

And I also like the suggestions that Captain Awkward gives here: How do I learn how to say the right thing at the right time to people I’m interested in?

The upshot of all of these articles is: Honest, open communication goes a long way. It can be scary to tell someone how you feel or to ask them out on a date, but you'll definitely want to communicate that interest so that your crush knows what you want, and so that you can feel good about expressing your wants, too!

Can you tell me how you think this might go? Do any of these suggestions seem like they'd feel good to you, or would something else work better?

Hey Amanda,

I’m hanging in there, thanks for asking. And no, it’s not pandemic-related stuff thankfully.

Thank you for attaching those articles! I can totally relate to what the letter-writer said in Captain Awkward’s post:

“Friends” is easy and comfortable, and “more” is — or feels — complicated and scary. I don’t know how to get there, I don’t know how other people get there, and much of the time it seems better to stay put.

I felt like I could’ve written that!! I’ve also been told by people that I’m attractive and a cool person, but I do struggle with self-esteem for sure. I also definitely feel like I didn’t get the memo for how other people make the transition from friends to dating happen either, so then I hold back on saying anything.

I also related to this one part in “How Do I Ask A Guy Out?”

Some people deal with nervousness around asking someone out by using vague or ambiguous language, and I understand the impulse to do that; if it isn't clear whether you're asking someone to hang out as friends or as a date, then you might be able to backtrack and save face if the other person isn't interested in dating. It might feel safer to ask someone out if you can pretend you meant it as a platonic question all along if they don't want to explore anything romantic with you.

^^I do this a lot!! I’m SO vague when I ask someone out, that it usually comes off as me asking to hang out as friends. Like with online dating it’s easy, because everyone knows it’s a date, but I’ve never asked someone out in-person outside of an app. (And even with people I’ve met from an app, I still tend to have a hard time initiating any sort of physical touch so then things fizzle out and go nowhere.)

So that’s definitely a big issue for me, because I don’t make it clear at all that I wanna go on a date with someone I’ve gotten to know as a friend... I guess I just assume that they wouldn’t want anything more than friendship with me, so making it vague seems like a safe way to not make them uncomfortable, you know?

Also, this part that Captain Awkward wrote definitely hit close to home with me too:

If you pre-reject yourself by panicking, overthinking, and avoiding, you will never get to the good parts of life and love.

I didn’t even think about it that way but that makes total sense. I also already know I’m good at being a friend (at least that’s what my friends tell me!) but I have absolutely no clue how to be someone’s partner, since I’ve never done it before (even though I’m in my mid-twenties)... so that also makes me hesitant to explicitly ask a friend on a date, since I just assume I’d be bad at dating them.

So I’m not sure if there’s any way to really get over all that? I know I wrote a lot, so thanks for reading! But yeah, that’s kinda where I’m at with what I’ve read from these articles.

MusicNerd wrote:I guess I just assume that they wouldn’t want anything more than friendship with me, so making it vague seems like a safe way to not make them uncomfortable, you know?

That's super considerate of you! I think a key thing to remember here is that while we definitely want to be respectful of others and sensitive to their boundaries, we can also give people the space to make decisions for themselves. By assuming that someone wouldn't want more than friendship, or by assuming it would make them uncomfortable, you're not giving them the chance to be autonomous and make those decisions for themselves (again, I see you're doing that with the best of intentions!). There are definitely ways to put something "on the table" and then allow someone else to make an independent decision, and by doing so, you open the space for both of you. You get to express your interest, and you give them the opportunity to respond.

MusicNerd wrote: Also, this part that Captain Awkward wrote definitely hit close to home with me too:

If you pre-reject yourself by panicking, overthinking, and avoiding, you will never get to the good parts of life and love.

I didn’t even think about it that way but that makes total sense. I also already know I’m good at being a friend (at least that’s what my friends tell me!) but I have absolutely no clue how to be someone’s partner, since I’ve never done it before (even though I’m in my mid-twenties)... so that also makes me hesitant to explicitly ask a friend on a date, since I just assume I’d be bad at dating them.

So I’m not sure if there’s any way to really get over all that? I know I wrote a lot, so thanks for reading! But yeah, that’s kinda where I’m at with what I’ve read from these articles.

On the contrary, it sounds to me like you're being really thoughtful about approaching dating, which is often a mark of a good partner! That said, I know being new to something can cause some nervous thoughts. Part of it will be just taking the leap and trying some new things, but you can do that in a way that's considerate of both you and your potential dating partner. You might like this article which goes over dating in your mid-twenties, and how to get over some of the anxiety that can come with that. Embracing Newbiehood: How to Approach Dating and Sex in Your 20s With Little or No Experience

You know, I would love to see you come up with some reasons that you might be good at dating someone, to balance out the worries. Do you think that might be a useful exercise? You could write them here, if you'd like! It can be really empowering to recognize the good parts of ourselves and share them with others. I'm really curious to see what you might come up with! And if it's hard, I'd be happy to brainstorm with you.

Hi Amanda,

You know, I didn’t think about it as taking away someone else’s autonomy and not allowing them to make a decision for themself... but I guess I kinda am doing that when I avoid expressing interest and assume they won’t like me. That’s a fair point!

There are definitely ways to put something "on the table" and then allow someone else to make an independent decision, and by doing so, you open the space for both of you. You get to express your interest, and you give them the opportunity to respond.

I’m curious to know what that would look like for people I become friends with? Could I text them to ask them out? I know some people say asking someone out in-person is better (when it’s not an online dating app), but I also feel like that would be putting them on the spot if I did that in-person and was like, “Hey, wanna go on a date with me to this thing?” What do you think?

On the contrary, it sounds to me like you're being really thoughtful about approaching dating, which is often a mark of a good partner!

Oh, huh... I didn’t even think about it that way, but thanks! That’s nice of you to say.

You know, I would love to see you come up with some reasons that you might be good at dating someone, to balance out the worries. Do you think that might be a useful exercise? You could write them here, if you'd like! It can be really empowering to recognize the good parts of ourselves and share them with others. I'm really curious to see what you might come up with! And if it's hard, I'd be happy to brainstorm with you.

It’s funny you should say that, because a while back someone IRL had me write a list of positive things about myself using the things my friends said about me! Some of the things they said were that I’m: smart, funny, empathic, cute, creative, good with animals, a good friend, resilient, always working to better myself. I thought it was really nice of them to say those things, and I had no idea they felt that way about me until I asked them!

I’m curious to know what that would look like for people I become friends with? Could I text them to ask them out? I know some people say asking someone out in-person is better (when it’s not an online dating app), but I also feel like that would be putting them on the spot if I did that in-person and was like, “Hey, wanna go on a date with me to this thing?” What do you think?

I'm not Amanda, and I know different folks have different opinions on this, but I'd say that asking someone out via text is absolutely fine if that's what you're most comfortable with. There are some conversations that are really not great to have via text (big serious relationship talks, other significant life-related stuff) but asking someone out? I think that's absolutely fine. For some folks, it might even be preferred: some people like having some time to think about their response and not feel so put on the spot like a face-to-face conversation can feel!

Hey Karyn,

Yeah no, I totally agree that serious convos are probably not great over text. But I definitely connected with what you were saying here:

For some folks, it might even be preferred: some people like having some time to think about their response and not feel so put on the spot like a face-to-face conversation can feel!

^That’s what I was thinking too! I mean even the idea of texting a friend to ask them on a date seems terrifying, because if they aren’t interested then it’s gonna be really awkward if we see each other again. But it’s less-terrifying to me than the idea of asking them out in-person.

Idk I guess I just wish the people I like would be more forward with me, and be more overt about showing interest (if they’re interested), you know? It would make things way easier for me! lol But I guess it’s a bit more difficult to want that when neither of us are men and aren’t socialized to be “the pursuers” in a heteronormative world.

Great! Does knowing that if you like someone you could text them to ask for a date help with some of the worries you have?

I get what you mean about it being easier when people show you clearly that they're interested. Putting yourself out there can be hard, and feeling some amount of certainty about how the other person feels can make it seem less risky somehow. The thing is, asking someone out or falling in love always means embracing a certain amount of uncertainty - we can never know for sure how something will go, even if feelings are mutual! And sure, heteronormative roles can set out some kind of script to follow, but those scripts are pretty limiting so being free to write your own can be great too! Hell, taking a risk and being "the pursuer" by making the first move can even be a lot of fun. What do you think?

Siân wrote:Great! Does knowing that if you like someone you could text them to ask for a date help with some of the worries you have?

Yeah, I think it does somewhat? There’s no way I could do it in-person, so texting seems easier.

Siân wrote:Putting yourself out there can be hard, and feeling some amount of certainty about how the other person feels can make it seem less risky somehow. The thing is, asking someone out or falling in love always means embracing a certain amount of uncertainty - we can never know for sure how something will go, even if feelings are mutual!

YES, it would be so much easier if I could have more certainty about their feelings!! And yeah, it kinda sucks that I’ve gotta embrace uncertainty here. I feel like there’s TOO much uncertainty, you know? Like, what if they don’t like my inexperience? What if they think I’m weird or creepy for asking them out? Or that I’m not good enough? There are so many factors that I can’t possibly know, which I guess I find scary.

Siân wrote:Hell, taking a risk and being "the pursuer" by making the first move can even be a lot of fun. What do you think?

Yeah, maybe it could be? Idk we’ll see if I actually get the guts to do it post-quarantine. Even when I’m on dates I feel uncomfortable being the one to initiate any sort of physical contact (beyond hugging), because I worry about making them feel uncomfortable... and then, things tend to fizzle out because I don’t make a move.

But yeah idk, there’s no way for me to know for certain how they’d feel about me touching their arm or holding their hand or anything either I guess. (God, I feel like such a clueless, awkward middle-schooler for saying all this stuff!! lol *facepalm*)

I totally see that it can feel overwhelming, especially with all those extra worries crowding in your head. It can be hard to understand that whether a particular person wants to date you is not a judgement on your value, whether you are "good enough". For example, I can think someone is awesome, have a huge amount of fun hanging out with them, appreciate the value they add to my life and think they will be a good partner for someone - without wanting to date them. Maybe I don't want a relationship right now, or I know that in a romantic relationship our needs would be too different, or am preoccupied by connections I already have.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, when you're asking if someone wants to go on a date, you're only asking them that one thing. Their yes/no ISN'T an answer to "am I too inexperienced" or "am I good enough" it's ONLY an answer to do they want to date you right now. Does that help at all?

It sounds like your self-esteem might be something you're struggling with more broadly - does that sound right? Is there anything you're doing right now to work on that?

Looking forward to your post-quarantine updates!

Siân wrote:I totally see that it can feel overwhelming, especially with all those extra worries crowding in your head. It can be hard to understand that whether a particular person wants to date you is not a judgement on your value, whether you are "good enough". For example, I can think someone is awesome, have a huge amount of fun hanging out with them, appreciate the value they add to my life and think they will be a good partner for someone - without wanting to date them. Maybe I don't want a relationship right now, or I know that in a romantic relationship our needs would be too different, or am preoccupied by connections I already have.

Yeah, that all definitely makes sense. I think I just need to continue to work on not taking things so personally if they don’t work out.

Siân wrote:I guess the point I'm trying to make is, when you're asking if someone wants to go on a date, you're only asking them that one thing. Their yes/no ISN'T an answer to "am I too inexperienced" or "am I good enough" it's ONLY an answer to do they want to date you right now. Does that help at all?

Wow, yeah! That’s so simple, but makes sense, because I’m not asking them any of those other questions. I think this ties into not taking things so personally, but I know that’s gonna take time to work through. But yeah, that’s definitely a valid point you mentioned there!

I guess as I get to know someone more deeply, my fear of their judgment is something I’m gonna have to work through as well. And I’ll have to remind myself that if there is judgment, or even just lack of alignment (like if they want someone more experienced, which is totally valid because it seems like it’d be easier to be with someone who is experienced), then I’ll have to work on not taking it personally then, too. It’ll be hard, but I’ve gotta do it because I’m tired of missing out on these connections, you know?

Siân wrote:It sounds like your self-esteem might be something you're struggling with more broadly - does that sound right? Is there anything you're doing right now to work on that?

Yes! I go to therapy every week — well, it’s moved to virtually since quarantine started. My therapist has brought up how in all other aspects of my life I’m more confident, but in terms of dating/relationships/sex, my confidence is way lower. (Probably in large part due to trauma.)

We’ve been working on other stuff right now, but maybe once we’re allowed to socially interact with people again, I’ll ask her how to work on improving my self-esteem specifically in this aspect of my life.

It definitely makes me feel nervous to bring up to her, because I feel like she might judge... but I guess that’s also something I can bring up with her. (which is so meta! haha)

Siân wrote:Looking forward to your post-quarantine updates!

Thanks! I look forward to having updates to give.

Also, thanks to all of you for taking the time to respond! I really appreciate it.

MusicNerd wrote:But I guess it’s a bit more difficult to want that when neither of us are men and aren’t socialized to be “the pursuers” in a heteronormative world.

I'm glad you brought this up! A lot of queer folx who have been raised as femme might struggle with dating because yes - they weren't socialized to be the pursuers! And on top of that, femme people are also socialized to give compliments to each other and be emotionally intimate in the absence of romantic or sexual interest. So when it comes to dating...it can be tough to make those interests clear when a lot of the actions we would take to show that interest also overlap with femme friendship socialization.

This just means that you'll have to use that direct, clear communication so that your crush understands you want to push things past just friends. You can use specific words (e.g. "date," "crush," "more-than-friends," "attracted") make things clear.

I agree that texting is totally fine to ask someone out, too!

MusicNerd wrote:
It definitely makes me feel nervous to bring up to her, because I feel like she might judge... but I guess that’s also something I can bring up with her. (which is so meta! haha)

Recognizing that this is meta is totally you doing self-therapy! I don't think your therapist would judge you at all, and while we're thinking about that...why do you get the feeling she might judge you? Where is that coming from?

Amanda F. wrote:

MusicNerd wrote:But I guess it’s a bit more difficult to want that when neither of us are men and aren’t socialized to be “the pursuers” in a heteronormative world.

I'm glad you brought this up! A lot of queer folx who have been raised as femme might struggle with dating because yes - they weren't socialized to be the pursuers! And on top of that, femme people are also socialized to give compliments to each other and be emotionally intimate in the absence of romantic or sexual interest. So when it comes to dating...it can be tough to make those interests clear when a lot of the actions we would take to show that interest also overlap with femme friendship socialization.

Yeah, exactly!! I definitely have a hard time knowing their intentions because of this. Like, is this friendliness strictly platonic or romantic/sexual? It’s so hard to tell!

Amanda F. wrote:This just means that you'll have to use that direct, clear communication so that your crush understands you want to push things past just friends. You can use specific words (e.g. "date," "crush," "more-than-friends," "attracted") make things clear.

Yeaahhhh.... fair point. You’re right, using clear and direct communication — while scary! — is definitely the only way I can get out of the “gal pal” conundrum. haha

Amanda F. wrote:

MusicNerd wrote:
It definitely makes me feel nervous to bring up to her, because I feel like she might judge... but I guess that’s also something I can bring up with her. (which is so meta! haha)

Recognizing that this is meta is totally you doing self-therapy! I don't think your therapist would judge you at all, and while we're thinking about that...why do you get the feeling she might judge you? Where is that coming from?

Thanks! I didn’t even think about it as self-therapy, but I guess it is, huh?

I guess I think she’ll judge me, because she said something kinda judgmental when I talked about my feelings about dating (that we talked through and she apologized for).

But then again, she did later express being proud of me for putting myself out there when going out on dates with people for the past several months. So yeah, maybe I could bring up my goals of improving my self-esteem in this area of my life with her.

MusicNerd wrote:
I guess I think she’ll judge me, because she said something kinda judgmental when I talked about my feelings about dating (that we talked through and she apologized for).

But then again, she did later express being proud of me for putting myself out there when going out on dates with people for the past several months. So yeah, maybe I could bring up my goals of improving my self-esteem in this area of my life with her.

Ooh, okay - that's an external and equally valid reason to think that she'd judge you. That must have been frustrating for you. Therapy should be a non-judgmental place. I'm glad she apologized for that; therapists are human too, after all.

Self-esteem would be a great thing to bring up with her if you feel comfortable doing so!

Amanda F. wrote: Ooh, okay - that's an external and equally valid reason to think that she'd judge you. That must have been frustrating for you. Therapy should be a non-judgmental place. I'm glad she apologized for that; therapists are human too, after all.

Self-esteem would be a great thing to bring up with her if you feel comfortable doing so!

Yeah, I mean I’ve been seeing her for like 2 years, and this was literally the first time I ever felt hurt or judged by her. So, I think that’s a pretty good track record imo, since I agree with you in that she’s human too! But yeah, I’ll definitely think about mentioning self-esteem building in dating.

Maybe I’ll just bring it up as like self-esteem in general at first, and then maybe if I meet someone I like, then I can mention dating. I basically waited until I met someone I really liked the last time I brought it up (which was long after the judgmental session), which I think worked better than when I brought up dating issues in general.

Hi MusicNerd,

Just chiming in to say that mentioning self-esteem in general and then gradually integrating the dating portion into it sounds like a really good approach! That way, you get the skills and information you're looking for in a form where you can apply them to lots of different parts of your life.

Sam W wrote:Hi MusicNerd,

Just chiming in to say that mentioning self-esteem in general and then gradually integrating the dating portion into it sounds like a really good approach! That way, you get the skills and information you're looking for in a form where you can apply them to lots of different parts of your life.

Hi Sam, thanks! Yeah, I mean tbh my self-esteem is actually pretty good in other parts of my life outside of dating (which my therapist has also noted). But I figure if I bring up self-esteem as a more general thing, there will be a lesser chance of judgment. (And who knows, maybe I will learn some more new helpful tips for other parts of my life too!)

Also, thanks so much to everyone for being so kind and helpful! I really appreciate you taking the time to reply to this long thread. And I also feel less stupid about my feelings/concerns now, so that’s kinda cool too.

Hi MusicNerd,

Of course! We're so glad to help! But really, you've been doing a lot of the hard work yourself by being so introspective and reflective.