Approaching, or overstepping?

[Shutterspeed]

Hello folks. I'll try and get all this out without rambling too much. I hope this is the right forum for this.

I'm 24, female, and on the autistic spectrum. I live a pretty independent life- I share a rented house with my best friend, and have a nice job with supportive colleagues. I work hard on compromising fairly with the non-autistic world, but I do struggle a lot with social and sensory things.

I recently met someone through work who I like, and want to be around beyond just what's polite and necessary. He seems to be a nice person, he's very good at his job, we share some interests, and I find him attractive. We've only had a decent, one-on-one conversation once so far, but I see him around to wave/smile to now and then, and we're going to cross paths properly again at least twice in the near future (my workplace is doing an event in partnership with his).

So... I really want to approach this guy, show him some kind of interest. But I'm running up against an awful lot of anxiety about it. I have *no idea* how to proceed.

I know this kind of thing is a minefield anyway, but with my shaky grasp of social things, it's even harder. Autistic people talk about 'scripts' a lot when we talk about conversing; using previously-observed interactions from real life and fiction to create our own 'scripts' when we have to tackle the big bad world. Unfortunately, these don't count for much in a long conversation where people might wheel off on tangents and talk personal things, and so many of society's 'scripts' around approaching potential partners are toxic, manipulative, sexist things.

There seem to be so many unwritten rules. For a start, I don't even know if/when it's okay for me to say something. We've only talked once, after all, mostly about work stuff, and I couldn't read at all in his body language (my ultimate nemesis) whether he found it fun, interesting, weird, or just dull. He hasn't, as far as I can see, given me any indication he'd like to see me beyond what's polite and relevant to work. I fear I'd be overstepping the mark to just directly compliment him and invite him out- I can't even say for sure yet that he's single, or interested in women. I feel like I'm pressuring his boundaries just thinking about it.

I feel especially guilty that if I'm honest, it's not a capital-R relationship I'm interested in. I'd rather have a friends-with-benefits kind of situation. On an enlightened feminist level, I know that's fine. But I'm struggling to quiet the little internalised voices telling me: 'women shouldn't feel like that, I only feel like that because I've got this disorder and I'm broken, it's just proof that I'm selfish and can't feel for people properly and I shouldn't inflict myself on this nice, normal guy. What if he's a tender soul looking for 'the one'? Then I've gotten my creepy selfish attentions all over some poor innocent.'

At the core of this I'm just... so afraid of being pushy, creepy and hurtful to this guy. Afraid of being unempathetic, not being able to read his 'no thanks' signs, seeing him as a thing I want rather than a person. Because even if he isn't interested in that way... I'd still like to talk to him, share our shared interests; it'd be nice to make a friend. But he'll hardly want that if I've made it all awkward from the get-go.

I know there might not be a whole lot to say back to this, because ultimately life won't ever as be scripted and comfortable as anyone wants, let alone someone with my needs and anxieties, but... what do you think? Would it be wrong of me (as in socially wrong, impolite) to approach somebody I know so little? I just struggle to trust myself, and I want to unpack this with somebody so I don't make a mistake and alienate a nice person.

I've searched the articles and forum topics here for neuro-diverse perspectives, and the couple of topics I've found were good reads, but they were pretty much all about communicating in steady relationships. I'll completely understand if this just isn't this forum's area of expertise, and if I'm older than this forum is really meant to serve, to boot- but if someone wanted to help me tackle all this, I'd be really grateful.

[Heather]

Welcome to the boards, and by all means, it's so fine for you to ask about this here. We also aim to serve people in their teens and twenties, so it's all good.

I'm happy to talk with you more, if you like, about getting okay with the fact that wanting what you do is something you get to want, and your gender doesn't change that.

But it sounds like what's more pressing for you, and probably of more use right now, is just taking a next step to an interaction with this person that's a next step to pursuing any kind of relationship with him further. I'd not go too far in your thinking here about what he may or may not want sexually or romantically because you're not there yet, so all that's going to do is stress you out. I'd say that's putting the cart before the horse, in other words.

How do you feel about just asking him out to coffee? As in, the next time you run into him, you say, "Hey, whatever-his-name-is! Would you like to go grab a cup of coffee (or tea, or a beer, or a soda, whatever your beverage of choice is) with me sometime?" Just like you'd ask someone you might want to be friends with?

Perhaps obviously, if he declines, then he's not interested, probably in anything besides work interactions. You don't have to worry about being pushy or guessing, because if he nixes that, it's all clear, and all you have to do is be cool about it if he does.

If he accepts, then you can make plans for that coffee/tea/beer/whatever, then go do that and just see how it goes. If you do have that time together, you can figure it's just a first social step to getting to know each other outside of work, with no need to talk about anything big, just a gab or get-together that's about the two of you getting some sense, outside of work, of who you both are.

[Shutterspeed]

Edit: oops, posted early! Damn this touchscreen. Am editing to answer fully now.

Hi Heather. Wow, thank you for such a quick response!

Thinking far too far ahead is something I know I'm guilty of on a daily basis. Part of my need to have a routine/plan for everything, I suppose.

[Heather]

Heh, no worries: been there myself.

I think you can make some plans to work with your needs: you just want to do your best to make them manageable and also appropriate and realistic. Trying to plan for a maybe romance or sexual relationship before you've even hung out with someone enough to know if you both really want that is waaaaaaaay ahead. No plan you'd make would be sound because you barely even know this person, let alone anything else!

But I DO think you can plan in the kind of way I suggested, one step at a time. I'm heading out for a little bit to do other work, but I'll check back in here in a few hours to respond to whatever you add!

[Shutterspeed]

I had a total tech nightmare there, sorry- I'll paste here what I was trying to edit into that reply. (The stereotype that autistic people are all great with tech needs a HUGE pinch of salt. )

Thinking far too far ahead is something I know I'm guilty of on a daily basis. Part of my need to have a routine/plan for everything, I suppose. It's interesting what you say about not being too concerned, right now, about what he might want. Because that's something I feel a lot of pressure/guilt to consider a long way beforehand- I guess it's overcompensation for that fear that I'm not empathetic enough 'in the moment'. Ironic that fixating on how to be ultra-appropriate in every possible situation is actually... less appropriate. Letting how much I let myself think/plan ahead does sound like a good idea.

As for asking him... I guess, if from my description it doesn't sound like an inappropriate scenario after all, the only thing standing in my way is me having the guts to do it. It's intimidating and unpredictable, but I know I just have to accept that.

I think I have a lot of feelings around... needing permission, somehow. Permission to try, to even want to try in the first place, but also permission to be imperfect at it. A lot of infantilisation happens once autistic children start growing up and not fitting the 'dependant and tragic' stereotype anymore, with both good and bad intentions. I know strongly that this is something I want... But I've been so dependant in the past, and told so often that I can't trust my own mind, that I have this need to hear 'yes, that's okay to want/say/do' from an outside force. I need to let go of that, but I'm not really sure where to begin.

I think this also ties into the 'nice (normal) girls aren't like that' feelings in all sorts of ways. I do think getting into that a bit might help.

[Heather]

I totally hear you: the way that sexuality is approached by sooooo many people when it's about people with any kind of disability remains so problematic. Things have gotten a bit better, to be sure, but there's still a long way to go. And there's no way not to internalize some of that, just like there's no way for someone to avoid internalizing any kind of bias put on them or about a group they're a member of. I'm sorry that you're fighting those messages and how they've found some root in your concept of self.

For sure, I think asking someone out to coffee when you've had a good interaction is totally common and not at all inappropriate. I wonder if it might help you with this to go about this, for now, thinking about it like you would trying to create a platonic friendship. Now, that might not be less intimidating than this for you, so if that seems like a foolish suggestion, feel free to scrap it. But if you have had experience with that and feel more comfortable asking someone to hang out in that frame, I'd suggest you do the same here. After all, friendship really is the basis of every relationship people tend to benefit from, even when that relationship is almost entirely sexual. Those yucky scripts you talked about when you first posted (and I agree with you, so much of that advice is so full of bleck) never seem to take that into account, and often make it sound like going about anything that isn't platonic friendship is this radically different social situation, even from the get-go. I'd posit it isn't, and too, that when we go about our other relationships like we do friendships, no matter what comes out of an interaction or relationship, it seems more likely to be good, and certainly a lot more comfortable and down-to-earth for people.

Really, we CAN'T know what someone else wants way down the road now. Heck, even they often won't know that. If it might help you out to get some support or help making mini-plans as you go with things like this (including a plan to manage the positive risk you're taking, and any of the possible immediate outcomes of that), know you're more than welcome to ask for that here: that's something we're glad to help with.

I can't speak much for "normal" girls because I have no idea who those people are. I'm not actually trying to be cheeky, it's just that there is no sexual "normal" or relationship-want "normal," for all people or any subset of people. We're all really different, as are all of our opportunities, circumstances and situations. So, are there women who don't want serious romantic relationships, at any given time -- or full-stop -- but DO want more casual or sexual relationships? Yep. And I think it's safe to say that how nice any of us (I've certainly been one of those people in my life, sometimes for years at a time) are varies, and it's based on what kind of relationships we want in this way. Normal? Again, I don't know what normal is, but I'm also never the best person to ask about that because normal has never been a goal of mine or anything that seemed all that interesting to me! I know in my life and work experience, too, all I can tell about what being very concerned about what's normal does to people is give them a lot of anxiety, and often keep them from living their lives.

Are you a reader? If so, I'd certainly be happy to suggest some books that might help you with this particular issue. I'll be back through the boards tomorrow morning, so just let me know where you want to take things from here.

[Shutterspeed]

I hear what you say about changing the frame like that. It does seem kinder and more honest to everyone, and that is all I want to be, after all. Looking in from the outside at how relationships progress in media, and how my peers approach and react to dating/hookups, it always seems so calculated and knowing- combative, in fact. Like the sexual element is the end goal, so actually enjoying each other's company for what it is takes a back seat to trying to trying to... lure in and outwit the other person, kind of. That weird thing of verbal sparring, playing hard to get, trying to get the other person embarrassed or needy or tense that seems to be scripted as 'cute' or 'seductive'. It always felt like a weird passive-aggressive dynamic to me, and I always assumed that was because I'm wired differently and not able to do it properly. But maybe it's just genuinely a counterproductive approach.

(Then again it's also a tad disappointing because, well, I really want to buy into the idea that if I just talk like a network TV vamp it'll all go swimmingly and we'll be going home within the hour. But that's the script-reliance and a degree of self-absorption rearing up again. I'll just have to acknowledge it, but not let it tell me what to do.)

I'm not sure what to say about the mini-plans thing, as I'm not sure what you mean. Pre-planning is always a pleasing thing for me, but I'm not sure in this scenario I could come up with anything more elaborate than 'walk over when we're all leaving our next meeting and say the words'.

Normal is a total fallacy, I know, but such a strong one. What I find frustrating is how I can be thoroughly at peace with others' choices and differences, respect them and defend them, but not so much my own. I don't know why I feel like I'm an exception who needs to try extra hard for what everyone else deserves by default. I really want to shake this, because it's not an attitude I want to take into the adult world.

I am a reader, albeit a slow one- I'd be happy to hear some suggestions.

[Heather]

I hear what you say about changing the frame like that. It does seem kinder and more honest to everyone, and that is all I want to be, after all. Looking in from the outside at how relationships progress in media, and how my peers approach and react to dating/hookups, it always seems so calculated and knowing- combative, in fact. Like the sexual element is the end goal, so actually enjoying each other's company for what it is takes a back seat to trying to trying to... lure in and outwit the other person, kind of. That weird thing of verbal sparring, playing hard to get, trying to get the other person embarrassed or needy or tense that seems to be scripted as 'cute' or 'seductive'. It always felt like a weird passive-aggressive dynamic to me, and I always assumed that was because I'm wired differently and not able to do it properly. But maybe it's just genuinely a counterproductive approach.

I lovelovelove what you just said here. 100% cosign. I also think this is one of those places where being different in some regard -- and IME, I do think some ways of being neuro-atypical support this particular kind of difference, which is a gift, to be sure -- can make it easier to see the flaws in all this, and easier to avoid them, even if that's just because were you to try and go about this these ways, it wouldn't work for you or just feels super-confusing. These ways of interacting so rarely seem to lead to relationships where people really connect and stay connected, or where people feel able, ever, to be themselves. That's not what most of us want in our intimate relationships.

Per what planing we can do, how about just keeping it simple. Like, is coffee what you want to ask this person out to? If not, where would you like to hang out with them that feels like a) it'd be fun for you both, and b) is something you feel would help you feel more comfortable? We can also talk about managing your fears while you ask, if you want, or about what you can do to prepare yourself for two basic outcomes: he says no, or he says yes.

With reading, I think a few books that might be good for you are:
• Outdated: Why Dating Is Ruining Your Love Life, by Samhita Mukhopadhyay (I think you'll also just enjoy a lot of what she has to say about those conventions we've talked about: Samhita is pretty amazing with this stuff)
• What You Really Really Want: The Smart Girl's Shame-Free Guide to Sex and Safety, by one of my besties, and total genius, Jaclyn Friedman
• Yes Means Yes, an anthology edited by Jaclyn and Jessica Valenti
• And I haven't yet read this one myself, but I've head good things, and both the authors are themselves on the spectrum (a lot of similar books aren't by people who are, and kind of come at this from the autistic-spectrum-as-disorder approach, which I really don't like and find ableist): Autistics' Guide to Dating: A Book by Autistics, for Autistics and Those Who Love Them or Who Are in Love with Them, by Emilia Murry Ramey and Jody John Ramey

[Shutterspeed]

Those books sound interesting, thanks- I'll see if I can get my hands on them online.

Well, our next meeting is liable to be an evening thing (we both work in entertainment-related stuff and keep pretty weird hours), so I thought it wouldn't be too odd to suggest a post-work drink. In a 'quiet corner and chat and people-watch' sense, not a 'let's get wasted' one. If that's not a goer I'd suggest coffee at a more sedate hour, and if that's a no too, that way I know it's not just a schedule clash but is a general polite decline. Does that sound over-complicated?

[Heather]

Sounds good to me!

[Shutterspeed]

Whoops, I left this thread hanging. Been pretty busy.

So, kinda anticlimactic update- we did cross paths again, but in a pretty formal meeting setting with a bunch of colleagues, we didn't talk directly and he had to dash off with friends afterwards, so all we did was say a general 'good meeting, thanks, bye' at the door. I felt a bit crap about it afterwards, but really, it's not like it was personal.

I did figure out something, though. It seems like he might be pretty shy. Next to his colleagues he was noticeably more softly-spoken, and one of my colleagues commented on how much more he reacts to other people rather than setting his own agenda. He also has what I would describe as quite a nervous posture, keeping his head down and hands tucked in or clasped together- and I *never* notice body language, so it must be very pronounced.

Thing is, we don't have any more work stuff scheduled this side of Christmas. So far, work has been my single excuse to be around him. I don't really know what I can do from here- I don't feel like we know each other well enough for me to just drop by at home-time one afternoon. :/

I bounce back and forth on my confidence a lot. Some days I feel like, go out and go after him, it's easy, I'm great, he'll be flattered! Then twenty minutes later I'll be feeling like an idiot, childlike and unattractive, that kind of thing.

[Heather]

You know, if it takes more time -- both because of limited opportunity, because of you needing more time to build up your own confidence around it, or both -- that is okay.

It can be easy to feel like there's some kind of ticking clock on people we have interest in, like if we don't ACT RIGHT NOW! someone else will snatch them up. In reality, though, we can never know the kind of window we have, and people also will often date plenty without being locked into things, or have relationships shift and pass on over time. In some many ways, timing really is everything with dating, and that includes when the time feels right for you, not just when you may have an opportunity. If it feels too rushed or hasty for you, or not quite right yet, that's how it is, and it's okay to hang on more until the timing and opportunity really do feel right.

[Shutterspeed]

Well, I definitely wouldn't say that it feels too soon for me- I think I didn't word the bit about just dropping by his office for no reason very clearly, sorry. I meant that that's something I'd be willing to do, but I worry that might be way too much for him/generally socially unacceptable at this stage. Especially if he's a little shy by nature.

I'm not sure the confidence/self-perception thing is something that's going to change a great deal for me, not even given time. For example, I answer the phone at work all the time, but doing it over and over doesn't really seem to reduce my anxiety about it. Actually doing it, and doing it well, gets easier, but every time the thing rings I'm back to square one emotionally; I can't really reason with the sensory stress of the noise it makes or the social stress of not knowing who's calling or what they'll want. I think 'you'll know when you're ready' is a good philosophy for most people, but not quite true for the way my brain works.

I sound like I'm in a negative place at the moment, but I'm not really! I'm just feeling very indecisive and a bit spaced out.