Supporting a Friend Who Isn't There for Themselves

[Onionpie]

Hey all! Heads up for a VERY long post as I explain what's going on in my life right now. I just need to vent a bit first, there may not be any direct questions, but I would really appreciate any feedback about how to cope with this situation, since it is on-going and will be for quite some time.

So I have been friends with, let's call her T, for a good 5 or so years now. In that time, I have come to know that her relationships (all, not just romantic) are very rocky. She maintains friendships with people she tells me she doesn't actually like, and she says she only stays in contact with them because she feels guilty/like she owes them something. She has friends who do things that she feels very uncomfortable with and that push past her boundaries, and she says that she will cut them out of her life, but then it doesn't happen. Her romantic relationship has also been incredibly rocky the whole time I've known her. She has been with her partner since high school, he was her first relationship, and she has always felt that he is the only one who could ever love her. Her self-esteem is incredibly low, and so she views herself as completely valueless. Obviously, I think this has played a BIG part in her relationships being not-so-great; because she thinks so shittily of herself, she doesn't feel like she deserves better when other people treat her like shit.

She began venting to me a lot about things her partner would say or do, and trust me... there was a lot to vent about. On several occasions, he convinced her to agree to an open relationship when she didn't want that. He's one of those "bluntly honest" people who thinks that because it's "the truth" it doesn't matter if you're an asshole about it, and that if it's "the truth" then you should say it, no matter how hurtful it is. He's pretty much up and up told her that she's stupid -- he's asked her if she thinks maybe the chemo she underwent affected her intelligence. He's been just generally incredibly rude to her, like when she tried on a dress he told her it "gave her a muffin top under her armpits" and other cruelly "honest" things. He treats everyone as if they're stupid, and I have always disliked him because, well, he's always been kind of an asshole.

It got to the point where, every time we hung out, at some point she would bring up some shitty thing he said, kind of searching for me to validate her feelings that it was shitty. And of course, it WOULD be shitty, so I would say "wow that is a shitty thing to say to a person" and "I really don't like the way he said that to you". So she'd feel validated about feeling upset by it (because, considering her low self-esteem, she would always feel like maybe it wasn't actually a big deal). BUT then she would end up using me as almost a sounding board so she could then work out a "reason" why it totally WASN'T that shitty and oh he's SO GREAT in other ways. She was VERY firmly committed to this cycle (and then they got married!) so I didn't even mention that it was looking an awful lot like an abusive cycle, because she already would do the "reasoning" thing if I so much as said that wasn't a nice thing to say to a person.

Going through this same routine every single time I saw her started to really wear on me, so about a year and a half ago I sort of faded out of her life. I really loved her, and enjoyed her company, but hearing about her partner every single time, and having to go through the same routine of "oh he said this shitty thing to me but wait now that you agreed that it was shitty well IT WASN'T SO SHITTY AFTER ALL" was just too much for me. I was also struggling a lot with my own depression, so my emotional well had just run totally dry and I needed time to dig myself out of the pit I was in.

For a while I've kind of suspected that she might have BPD, because it just feels that she is SO emotionally dependent and needs a lot of reassurance, and has such low self-esteem that she kind of needs to constantly rely on her external relationships to define her and to provide that reassurance and sense of identity instead of getting it from within herself. She's also said things like I'm the only person who hasn't let her down (hello, pressure?!?) and that she's so glad to have me in her life because I'm the only friend who's really supportive of her. Even when she's not talking about her partner, she'll often just make small statements about her worthlessness or ugliness or whatever. So our friendship has always felt pretty emotionally draining for me.

In the spring I started therapy, and in september I started medication, and I have been feeling a lot more stable and confident in my ability to cope with my depression, although I'm only at the beginning of my journey so my footing doesn't feel totally secure and I'm still having to figure out things like dosage and self-care routines. Because of feeling a little more capable, I decided to start becoming close to T again in the summer -- I felt more able to deal with her emotional dependency. Once again, she would talk to me about how her relationship was feeling rocky, and her partner was spending an awful lot of time with another girl and she was feeling insecure about it. She said to me "I just have no idea where I would go if we split up." And I said that well, I know my boyfriend's parents are looking to rent out the other rooms in the house we're living in, so that's always a last resort. I wanted her to know that I was there for her and that there were OPTIONS, that she didn't HAVE to stay with her partner.

Well, fast forward to a month ago. Her husband tells her that he's realised that he DOES want children after all -- he used to totally shit all over the idea of anyone who wanted children, like he was SO superior to them. And I was always so heartbroken by the fact that I could tell that T DID want children, she had ALWAYS wanted children, but because her partner didn't, she convinced herself that she didn't either. She had started saying how stupid and gross children were, etc etc. Her identity and desires were always molded into whatever her partner wanted. To the point where she had been looking into getting tubal ligation. So then he went and turned entirely around on that and said he did want kids after all. But then he told her that he didn't want to have kids with HER. He said that, because of her multiple chronic illnesses, she is like a child because he always has to look after her, and thus she wouldn't be fit to be a mother.

She told me this in the middle of a shopping mall and I started yelling about how horrible and ableist that is to say, haha. People stared. I don't mind, because holy SHIT I have never wanted to punch someone so hard. Anyway, he also told her that they just don't have enough in common (like good job champ, you had 9 years to figure that out and maybe you should have done so BEFORE marrying her??) and so he wants a divorce. So she asked me if she could move in with my partner and I. Honestly, I hadn't been expecting that to actually happen at all, because whenever her partner was horrible, the cycle of abuse would just continue and they never did split up, she would convince herself that everything was totally fine, and life would continue as usual. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm so relieved for her that she has been freed of her partner, and I am heartbroken for her that he did it in such a horrible way and wasted so much of her time. I was just surprised that what I thought was more a symbolic gesture actually was becoming a reality.

So anyhoo, my partner asked his parents if they were still looking for more tenants, how much it would cost, etc. And everything worked out so that T COULD move in with us, as soon as she needed to. I'm glad I've been able to provide a space for her so she can properly be away from her husband, and I'm glad to be a steady supportive rock in her life at a time when she is really lacking that. However, I was very worried about thus being her 24/7 sole emotional support. I knew that she would be in an incredibly emotionally unstable place after such a devastating breakup, especially because I know how low her self-esteem is and how she relied on her relationship as a defining part of her identity. Then, about five days before she was due to move in with us, she attempted suicide and texted me from the psychiatric inpatient care in the hospital. So clearly, emotional unstable was a good estimation on my part.

She's been living with us now for a few weeks, and is a pretty great roommate and we've been hanging out and it hasn't been too bad at all. She sees a therapist and has switched dosage and type of antidepressants, and she said she hasn't been feeling suicidal anymore. We're working out a suicidal-feelings-plan anyway, I'm going to print off a list of good suicide hotlines and things that she can call if those feelings come back. I'm not sure what else exactly to include in the plan, so if anyone has more suggestions for that I would love to hear them.

I'm trying to work on finding a balance between hanging out with her and hanging out with alex and spending time by myself. When she's in the house I'm always inclined to hang out with her instead of spend time by myself, because she's awesome and we have fun together. But the other week I found myself just completely drained and unable to function, so I realized that I'd just been overextending myself and needed to take a break from everyone. I'm trying to include more me-time, and more dedicated self-care time now and it's working out better. If anyone has input around good ways to keep that balance, I would also appreciate that, too! I'm going to print off a little schedule of our work days so that T can see when we'll be in (this will help her a lot because she has memory issues due to her illness, and I think it'll also help when she's feeling lonely or suicidal, because she'll be able to look at it and know that someone will be home really soon) and I'll also add some dedicated me-time so that I can commit more to self-care time. I'll also have some dedicated-her time so that she can feel like there is some real time that she can rely on having some support. I've just been kind of unconsciously procrastinating on printing it off, because of a silly little worry that she'll be offended if I officially request some me-time (even though she's actually been totally great about offering me my own space, I've just constantly ignored my own needs and hung out with her instead lol).

However, her emotional dependency and yo-yo-ing have continued, as is to be expected, and she keeps going back and forth about whether her partner was terrible to her or whether he was actually lovely. I've had several conversations with her to help her talk through how she was feeling about it, and giving my own experience with my own breakup and figuring out when things have been not-so-healthy, if not outright abusive. She's also talked with another friend of hers (who she says she doesn't actually like?!? I don't know anymore) who is in her 30s and has a lot more experience and wisdom around relationships, and she said pretty much exactly the same stuff I'd been saying. So T would agree with us and say that it all makes a lot of sense, and then the next day she would be like "well you only know about the BAD stuff" or "it really wasn't that bad, he was really lovely most of the time" or "for most of the years, he was really great, it's just been the past couple of years". I have heard that all many times before, even coming from myself, so I absolutely understand what she's going through.

However, she then says things like "wow I wish you could make my life decisions for me haha" and asks for my advice about how to get over her partner -- I told her it's important to stay out of contact for a few months, to give herself some space, and surround herself with people who love her and respect her. She's asked me for my advice around this multiple times, and then always goes and sees him as soon as I'm not around. And then when I come home after work in the evening she says "I'm such an idiot. I went and saw him today." And there are various "reasons" -- oh he wasn't coping well today, oh I needed to get something from the house, etc etc. I finally said (yet again) that look -- I know it's totally the opposite to what you WANT to do right now, but what will help you the most with getting through this is to not see him for a good long while, and to minimize contact entirely to only absolutely necessary things (because of most of her stuff still being at their shared apartment, it's pretty difficult to totally cut off contact). You're not an idiot, but you ARE making decisions right now that are just not in your best interest. In the long run you are actually just prolonging the pain of the breakup and making it harder for yourself to move on. The fact that you two are keeping in such close contact and still relying on each other heavily for emotional support is just not fair on either of you, and just not a healthy way of dealing with the breakup.

The next day she went to see him to ask him if they could get back together.

Like, just???? Why even ask for my advice if you're going to do the exact opposite. It's just like when she would vent to me about something terrible he said and then as soon as I validated her feelings, she decided that it wasn't actually terrible after all.

WHHYYYYY. Where do I draw the line around this? How do I help her to stop flip-flopping so much. (I know the answer to that is that I CAN'T).

I also try to make sure I'm not constantly like, dictating what she should do, or giving her advice or anything. The day she told me she went back to him and asked if they could get back together, I didn't say "didn't I TELL you not to do that" or anything -- I just gave her a big hug and told her I loved her and watched some doctor who with her. But how do I not constantly have it on my MIND? I am always thinking about the fact that I hope her therapist knows about this particular aspect or that one and asking her this question or that question, and I'm always hoping that her partner won't agree to get back together with her and she has to go through all that shit all over again, and I'm always trying to think of some way I could somehow magic her into believing in herself more. How do I stop myself not only from always being there for her, but from always having her on my mind??

[Mo]

It's great that you've been able to support your friend so much! But it definitely sounds like setting some boundaries would be good for both of you. I like that idea for a schedule, and getting that printed out & posted sounds like a fantastic plan.

Since she has a therapist right now, I think that's a great person to point some of these conversations toward. It doesn't sound like she's covering any new ground with these frequent conversations about her ex, and I think it's fine to say "you know how I feel about him and about that relationship, and there really isn't anything to add. This would be a good conversation to have with your therapist though" and deflect the advice-seeking and relationship-rehashing conversations. I get that it's super frustrating to be asked for advice that then isn't taken, but maybe it's easier to just not give it in the first place - again, you can tell her that you've gone over it with her enough that she probably knows what you think.

The work on her self-esteem is something you can't do for her. I don't know how to train yourself out of that line of thinking, and to get her out of your mind all the time, but I think the way to start is just to practice - when those thoughts pop up, busy yourself with something else and remind yourself that you can't make these decisions for her. I am super sympathetic; a good friend is so close to getting out of a living situation with an abusive partner and it's hard to keep myself from flying up to Seattle and dragging her out of the house. It's hard to remind myself that I can't change how she feels when she isn't sure she deserves something better. She isn't talking things over with me as often, but I am definitely struggling sometimes to keep her situation from taking over my brain-space.

I was reminded of a particular Captain Awkward column that has some advice for dealing with roommates who complain or use friends as therapists a lot, maybe you'll find some good strategies here? http://captainawkward.com/2015/09/19/74 ... our-house/

[Onionpie]

Hey, Mo. Thanks so much for reading my behemoth of a post, and for responding! Thank you for the suggestion to point her towards her therapist, I frequently forget that that's something I'm allowed to do for my friends and that I'm not obligated to have these conversations with them and give some advice just because I am technically able to. You also made me realize that I can totally apply some of the techniques I'm learning now that I've started meditating to my thoughts when I'm thinking about my friend. I'm not particularly good at it yet, since it's only been about a week and a half since I've started meditating, but hopefully I can use the skills to gently redirect my thoughts when I'm having down-time. Also thanks so much for the CA recommendation, I remember reading that article before but now that I'm in this situation I'm like "holy shit this is it exactly".

Unfortunately... I tried the "talk to your therapist about it" route yesterday and it's not so good. So she told me that once again, she is going to spend time with her ex -- they're going to see a movie together. I asked her if she's been talking to her therapist about how often she's seeing her ex, and she said she has. So I asked what the therapist has said about it, and she told me that the therapist thinks they're "silly" for having broken up and that the therapist is the one who's been telling her to stay in contact and try to get back together with her ex. I said that's a stupid thing for a therapist to say because it's not helpful at all to state one way or another what someone "should" do, they're supposed to be there to help YOU work things out for yourself and deal with the situation and feelings for yourself. She said "yeah that's kind of what I thought" but she didn't seem too bothered about it.

I also know that she really likes her therapist for other reasons, and she has a very hard time trusting therapists because of a childhood trauma. And I know that what the therapist said -- although totally unhelpful and also not very professional -- is what T WANTS to hear because she WANTS to get back together with her ex because she is terrified of being single. So I am like 99% sure that she won't even consider switching therapists. So now I know that while I've been giving her my own advice, her therapist has apparently been saying garbage stuff that completely undoes anything positive I've said to her. Wooo!

I printed out the list of suicide hotlines, and a colour-coded schedule of when I'm available/not available, both of which she really appreciated. However, I have to admit to myself that even though she is pretty good sometimes about saying I'm free to have my own space, she does pretty frequently ask me to hang out/"what my plans are" in the hopes that we can hang out and I then feel kind of obligated to spend time with her because I don't want her to have to spend lots of time by herself feeling depressed, and I know that's exactly what will happen when I'm not spending time with her. And it's hard to let go of feeling responsible for that, even though intellectually I know I'm not responsible for her emotions. I just know that she doesn't take care of herself at all or do anything to get herself out of bad emotional states (because she hasn't learned any strategies/she doesn't feel like she's "worth" it) so I feel like because I'm better equipped and have strategies for that sort of thing, I'm responsible for helping take care of her.

I still constantly have this on my mind, rehashing conversations we've had and thinking about what I "should" have said better. As if, had I said the "perfect" thing, she would somehow listen and take care of herself better and stand up for herself more. Like for example, I said to her that even if her ex decides he DOES want to try again, I think they should both take some time apart before doing that, otherwise they'll very likely just repeat the same problems they were having previously. I said that that's exactly what happened several times with my first boyfriend and I, and she responded "well he was an asshole" and instead of staying on point and saying "that's not the point, people create behavioural patterns even in the best relationships, but some of your patterns were clearly not good because that's what led to the breakup" I said "well, your partner can be an asshole too, and my ex wasn't ALWAYS an asshole -- no one is. Everyone's lovely sometimes. Except maybe hitler. And even then, he had people who loved him anyway." Which is still like, a good point But it's not the one I wanted to make and I keep replaying the conversation in my mind and wishing that I'd explained it better, and if only I'd explained it better then maybe she'd understand and fully absorb and believe what I'm saying. Even though I know that's not true.

I think the emotional drainage (ew?) from this has also been affecting my relationship with my partner. Because I feel so drained and tired all the time, I have less time for my partner. I also don't associate our house with like, quiet-me-time as much as I did -- I associate it more with dealing with T and trying to figure out how to best help her. So it's less a place of relaxation and more a place of dilemma now. So I just feel far less inner-quiet when I'm at home, and I'm always even more drained than I was before, so I'm not exactly great fun or a nice calming presence for my partner to come home to after he's been out at work and school for hours on end. So our time together is kind of being affected.

I'm wondering if maybe I just need to say that it's not going to work, it's going to be too draining for me, and I should help her look into some other housing options. But because she takes everything very personally because of her low self-esteem, and her emotionally unstable state from the breakup and the suicide attempt, I don't know how she would take it, and I don't know how I would even go about saying something like that. I also feel bad about that because her life is in so much upheaval right now, and I wanted to provide a bit of steadiness there. I'm worried that it'll throw her even more out of sorts and she'll end up making choices that are less about long-term happiness and more about wanting something familiar right now (ie. I'm worried it'll convince her to get back together with her husband).

[Redskies]

Hi Onionpie,

I really agree with Mo. I think I'd also extend the suggestions for boundary-setting: I'd strongly suggest that you no longer discuss her husband or their relationship, what she should do about any of it, At All. No advice-giving from you, no being a sounding-board for her concerns, no hearing about anything he's done or she's feeling about him.

It's sounding like it's going round in circles and like you're trying to solve it for her. It's obvious you know you can't, but it's sounding like you're still trying anyway. I understand that it's profoundly heart-hurting when someone we care about just can't seem to get out of something that's so patently awful and harmful to them, and it's so, so understandable that you're trying everything to help and support her and get her away from harm - but in the end, you just don't have the ultimate say to get her away from this, and the only thing that's really happening is that you're getting hurt too. Again, I understand how heart-hurting this situation is, but it's really sounding like it's past time for you to disengage with the ins and outs of her life. Even when someone's really lost or making harmful choices, we just don't have the power or the say to redirect someone's life, you know? A lot of what you're describing here - the repeated talks about their relationship and what she should do, the responsibility you feel for her emotional well-being - is sounding more like it's gone over into counsellor-role than friend-role. I know you know, too, that personal-relationship people can never be someone's counsellor, and that mixing roles like that just doesn't work well for any of the roles or any of the people involved.

I think whether you continue offering her somewhere to live depends on whether you can renegotiate how you relate to one another so you're no longer feeling exhausted, stressed, and responsible for her well-being. You can't stop her situation or her low self-esteem from eating her, but you can stop it from eating you - and it's right to do whatever you can to stop it from eating you, because it doesn't trade. When it eats some of you, it doesn't eat any less of her. it just eats more altogether, and it will never be full or finished. (Courtesy of Captain Awkward, as you may well recognise .)

So, maybe when you hang out with her(if you want to), it should be exclusively to do something nice together? Less counselling (No counselling!), more friending

Need any help bringing those boundaries into your relationship with her? (I was thinking of something specific on Captain Awkward with some really helpful scripts, but couldn't find what I was looking for just now. Maybe you already know it!)

[Mo]

I don't know that I have a lot to add but I am giving a big thumbs-up to this comment.

[Onionpie]

Hey, guys, thanks for the replies! I had my session with my therapist on thursday morning and I talked to her a lot about this then, and she helped me work through it (and said an awful lot of the same stuff you've both said!). When I told her how much time I had been spending with T verses how much self-care time I've allotted myself, she said I should really be spending TWICE as much time on self-care as I spend with T because of how draining it is for me at the moment. She said that the self-care I have been doing is really excellent, and in a normal situation it would likely be enough, but because this whole situation has sort of taken over my life at the moment, I just need a lot more self-care than I would normally. Which I think is very true, and so I'm going to be cutting back on the time I spend with T and taking more time for myself.

I spent the whole day today either with just my partner or by myself, and last night my partner made me a nice dinner to come home to after I was working late, and we just spent some relaxing time together, and it really helped. Today spending most of the day by myself has felt like such a relief. I definitely need to draw boundaries with T around how much time I'm spending with her.

Redskies, I think your suggestion of setting the boundary of NO counselling-sessions (because yep, that's exactly what they've become, and this is exactly what happened with our friendship last time which made me fade out of her life) will be a very helpful one, although also incredibly hard. I think really, in the long run it will be of MORE help to T than what I'm currently doing -- if we create a space together where we're just having fun with each other, being in the moment, then it will give her that time and space to NOT be constantly thinking about her partner and relying on me for emotional support. I just really need to remind myself of this so I can will myself to have the conversation with her (I tend to shy away from confrontation, because I don't want to hurt people's feelings or feel like I'm being too harsh).

I had also already decided that I wanted to make our hang-out time a "zero negativity" time, in that neither of us get to make negative comments about ourselves, because that's currently a big cycle that's happening in our friendship right now (she'll make a negative comment about herself, I'll tell her nah that's not true, and boost her self-esteem). I think similarly, although sure giving her encouraging comments can help boost her self-esteem maybe momentarily, it is actually MORE important to just totally break the habit of making those negative comments to begin with. So I think that nicely extends into zero negativity part 2: don't dwell on things! No talking about ex husband because we've already talked it to death and you have a therapist for that! I really want to do just-friend stuff with her.

I find scripts super helpful, so if you have any input on a way of going about this without feeling guilt-ridden about like, emotionally abandoning her... that'd be awesome! I tend to be pretty good at working out scripts myself (hence I actually end up being a pretty good boundary setter a lot of the time, I just find it a lot harder in certain situations, like this one) but I really appreciate any suggestions to help me on my way.

[Heather]

I'm actually not seeing anywhere where you are or would be emotionally abandoning her with some of these changes: I'm, instead, seeing places where you won't be enabling her anymore.

I know that one can feel like the other, especially if and when someone's behaviour is conflating the two -- and someone looking to be enabled often will, overtly or covertly, conflate them.

But: having strong boundaries about not engaging in negative self-talk, not being her therapist when you're not her therapist (and she's got one, so she's not being left in the lurch there), disengaging talk about the unhealthy relationship she's in where she seems to come to you looking for a lot of validation and help staying in it (per the venting that probably leaves her feeling clear of her frustration, which can help her stay stuck), and refusing to let her have no boundaries in your relationship? None of that sounds like abandoning her to me anymore, it just all sounds like refusing to enable her, be codependent with her, and insisting on a healthy relationship together, which is all the opposite of emotional abandonment. Make sense?

It seems to me one set of strategies you may need to figure out for yourself is how you're going to deal during the transition with this. In other words, when you change all of that, she's likely to keep trying to push back some before -- assuming she does, and I hope for your sake she does -- she starts adjusting to those changes and creating something better with you. She might even get manipulative and suggest you ARE abandoning her. So, were it me, I'd be brainstorming with myself and my therapist per how I was going to deal with that in order to help me stick with those changes rather than caving due to pushback.

[Heather]

Additionally:

I'm wondering if maybe I just need to say that it's not going to work, it's going to be too draining for me, and I should help her look into some other housing options. But because she takes everything very personally because of her low self-esteem, and her emotionally unstable state from the breakup and the suicide attempt, I don't know how she would take it, and I don't know how I would even go about saying something like that. I also feel bad about that because her life is in so much upheaval right now, and I wanted to provide a bit of steadiness there. I'm worried that it'll throw her even more out of sorts and she'll end up making choices that are less about long-term happiness and more about wanting something familiar right now (ie. I'm worried it'll convince her to get back together with her husband).

I think if this is where you DO get to, it is okay. For one, you made this living arrangement before her suicide attempt, so truly, the situation you agreed to was NOT what you got, at all. And someone just post-that-state is always going to be highly unstable. It also seems like she IS looking to you often to be her caretaker in some ways, which you also did not agree to. This is a LOT, and you're already working so hard on your own stuff, and this is also your home, your place of solace. So, taking that away, effectively, is huge, and it's a big thing to lose. You wanting it back doesn't make you a terrible person or a bad friend: it just makes you someone who wants a home that feels like a home, and who is not up for or able to (or who wants to!) caretake someone else full-time right now.

Your choices with this can't be about trying to control her behaviour or reactions, because those things are out of your hands. They're on her and up to her, and if you don't want to be her full-time caretaker or parent, you have to LET them be up to her. I get that it's scary with someone you care about who is so unstable: I totally do. But what she does really is out of your hands, and unless you want to support this relationship as a codependent one and cement that, I think that you need to do your best to make your choices based on you and what you CAN control, and leave hers to her. If you decide to go this route, we can certainly help -- and your therapist likely could and would, too -- you make a strategy for suggesting or making this change in ways that have enough safeties built-in that you feel able to do this in a way where you can know you're doing all you can, and only what really is appropriate per healthy boundaries, to make it as un-traumatic for her as possible.

[Onionpie]

Thanks heather! That does make total sense, and in my brain I've always known that to be true. I just have annoying niggling little "you're a terrible friend and she'll have nobody to turn to!!!" jerkbrain hanging around that makes me feel guilty about setting boundaries. I'm actually a lot better at just cutting people who consistently have terrible boundaries out of my life; I'm not used to still wanting to be friends with them. T can be so much fun to be around when she's not doing the negativity and the searching for validation, which is kind of a new thing for me and so trying to actually just change the dynamics of the friendship instead of ending it is something I don't have much experience with. I'm SO good at it with sexual boundaries though, so maybe I can apply those skills to the friendship

Today is my angry day (for various reasons). So when I got home to see a car in the driveway that belongs to the friend she's constantly saying she wants to cut out of her life and who violates her physical boundaries, I was just so done with that shit. They were in the kitchen when I came in and I was very short with them and just headed to my me-time to colour in my colouring book. She came into the room to mime shooting herself in the head and I just wasn't interested. Like, this is ENTIRELY IN HER HANDS. She can stop fucking inviting him over if she doesn't want him here. And now that he's gone, I think she has the OTHER friend over whom she tells me she doesn't like?!? I just cannot bring myself to give a shit today. Maybe today's the day I can harness that done-with-it-ness to set the big boundary of no more counselling sessions. I find it really frustrating how utterly unwillling/unable she is to set boundaries with her friends. Like I learned from a young age that if a "friend" is an asshole to you, don't be friends with them anymore. So to constantly hear about how much she wants to stop being friends with these people, only to continue inviting them over, is driving me slowly nuts. If I do have my conversation with her today, I'll try not to let my anger come out and allow only the done-with-it-ness to stay. Maybe I'll do some of my nifty app-meditation, since there's an exercise for letting go of anger.

I guess one thing holding me back around it is that I felt like I WAS signing up for this, because I KNEW she was like this, and I still agreed to have her live with me. So I feel like that's exactly what I was signing on for so now that I've changed my mind and decided it's too much, I am leaving her in the lurch (although realistically I know that's not really true). And I also know that hell, I GET to change my mind. I GET to have made a mistake and been wrong about how much I can handle.

I think something that's very likely to happen when I set boundaries with her, is that she won't exactly accuse me of abandoning her, but she will become very self-loathing and self-pitying. She'll take it as a testament to her worthlessness and annoyingness and so she'll be like "omg I am a terrible friend" "I am a worthless pathetic human being" etc etc. I think I'll make it clear that it's what we BOTH need -- she needs space and time to just not be talking about that stuff all the time, and I need space and time to not always be "on". I think she'll probably be more inclined to stop for MY sake than her own -- I think she'll think that shit, I AM always "on" when I'm at work and it's not fair for me to come home and not be able to turn off. Whereas she doesn't give much of a shit about her own sake. I'll also point out how much FUN we have together when we're just hanging out and not talking about negative shit. We went to a mall together on saturday evening and then we watched a horror movie together, and it was great. No talk of her relationship. I had a lot of fun.

I think one boundary she'll have a very hard time with is no negative self-talk. I think that stuff is almost just reflexive for her, it's almost just a habit that she's not really aware of. So I'm not sure how to go about responding to the inevitable negativity when it does slip out. Do I just say stuff like "remember we agreed not to say things like that?" and make sure not to reassure her at all since that's enabling?

[Mo]

If it helps to hear it again: even if you knew how your friend tends to be, that doesn't mean you could know exactly how draining it would be to share a living space with her. And, if you DID know that - you get to change your mind! You are absolutely allowed to do that.

[Onionpie]

Thanks Mo!

I didn't end up having the conversation with her yesterday, because her sister was over visiting from another city (her sister whom she tells me she doesn't like!!!! I just don't understand anymore -- does she actually not like them and is that terrible at setting boundaries, or does she for some strange reason feel like it's what I want to hear, as if I expect to be her only "real" friend or something? Who the hell knows! Certainly not me!) I did the anger meditation on the app and hey-o, it actually kind of worked. Although I disagreed with a couple of the mantras that kind of said that anger isn't helpful/productive, when I think it totally can be But it did help me let go of that a bit.

I've spent a lot more time by myself this week, partly due to just schedule things this week (having her sister over, having a doctor's appointment). Last night (usually dedicated to us watching horror movies) I wasn't in the mood to hang out and I assumed she was hanging out with her sister so I went and did my own thing, and then she got back from work and came and said hi and I was just like "oh lol I thought you were here this whole time" and she said something like "I'm offended you didn't look around for me!" jokingly but like... man, whatever. I didn't reply. Because that's kind of a weird thing to say. Like how dare I not come searching for her the second I come into the house...? Ack! Boundaries! I don't know how I'm able to be so uncomfortable and unhappy with, and AWARE of, her total lack of boundaries, and yet somehow manage to still not say anything about it. It's like, the world's shittiest superpower.

I'm going to have The Talk the next time we have some time alone together, which I think will be friday night, or possibly tomorrow morning I'll take some time after my self-care to be like "yo, listen up, we're making some changes!"

[Redskies]

If your friend hits the "I'm such a bad friend/such an awful person" space when you set these boundaries, I'd suggest simply cutting in with "it's not about you as person. It's about what I need in order to be healthy." And either continue what you were wanting to say, or if you're done, "Let's talk about something else *topic that is something nice and shared*". And "I need to talk about something else." And if it's still ongoing "In order for me stay mentally well, which i'm trying really hard to do at the moment, I need to not have these kinds of talks with anybody. I love you (if you do) and I'm so sorry you're having a hard time and feeling so bad right now (if you are). I need to go take care of myself right now. Let's talk about something fun later." and LEAVE.

I think that a big bunch of explaining - in response to "I'm so bad", at least - would really mostly be more of the same, especially if it comes with a big side of you also explaining how it'd be better for her. She's already demonstrated that she's not very able to do things that are good for her, so that doesn't seem like an actually practically helpful thing, but it also takes the topic of the conversation away from you and back to her. When you're saying and doing things that are about your needs, keep it about your needs - that's better for you and for her. When it's very ingrained and repeated, the only functional way of dealing with "I'm so awful" - especially when that happens as a response to you setting boundaries, even if the person doesn't mean to be shitty or boundary-crossing or manipulative - is to change the record.

This all might be scary or challenging for your friend: you'll be making some changes, and that can be scary or challenging for people. If it is hard for her, though, remember that it's only hard because healthy boundary-setting is so unfamiliar to her. It's really awful for her that she seems to have had such a lack of decent treatment and any healthy models from people in her life, it really, truly is. But that's not a reason to keep operating with her according to the ways familiar to her. She might not know what on earth to do with this weird new way at first, she might find it scary, she might be confused, she might try very hard to take it back to unhealthy familiarity. Stick with and enforce your new boundaries clearly, kindly and calmly, and if the two of you can be friends, she will adjust with time.

In the rest of your relationship with her, focus on the good-friend things, the times where you have fun together (obviously, within what you actually want to do). She'll learn by experience that you setting boundaries doesn't mean you don't like her or that she's terrible. Explaining those things will mostly bounce off a person, but demonstrating them can often help a bit of the light of truth to begin in someone's mind.

[Onionpie]

I think that a big bunch of explaining - in response to "I'm so bad", at least - would really mostly be more of the same, especially if it comes with a big side of you also explaining how it'd be better for her. She's already demonstrated that she's not very able to do things that are good for her, so that doesn't seem like an actually practically helpful thing, but it also takes the topic of the conversation away from you and back to her. When you're saying and doing things that are about your needs, keep it about your needs - that's better for you and for her.

Thank you SO much for saying this! I have a huge tendency to focus on trying to explain why I'm doing something, because I'm always so worried the person won't understand, but it does totally muddle up the situation and in this case, it IS about my needs and I'm allowed to make it about my needs and I SHOULD make it about MY needs. With her I also get bogged down in "must explain things" because I feel like because she doesn't seem to have a clue about doing things that are good for herself, maybe if I explain how this thing is not ONLY good for me but ALSO good for her then she'll start to figure out/be able to identify things that are good for her. BUT that's not realistic AND that's not my job because I AM NOT HER THERAPIST! So thank you so so much for pointing that out!

[Onionpie]

Hey guys. So I've been taking more time for myself, but I haven't had the chance to have a conversation with my friend -- there is a new problem that is getting in the way of this. which I'm about to explain.

I'm wondering if it's appropriate of me to ask for her therapist's contact info, and if I can contact them if I feel concerned for my friend's safety? Or would that be out of line of me? Because the thing is, this past week she's been exhibiting some pretty self-destructive behaviour and I'm concerned that although she might not have attempted suicide again, she's using this other stuff as like... an alternative to that. She's been out literally all day every day, going on multiple dates each day, for the past week. Even though like two weeks ago she told me that she doesn't think she'd be ready to date again for a long time. I think it's pretty obvious that she's going on dates as a way to avoid being by herself and facing her feelings around the breakup and she's also terrified of being single -- basically she's constantly going on dates to just totally avoid doing any emotional work. Which would just be unhealthy by itself.

However, last night she texted me (I think while on a date, or immediately after a date) telling me that she was extremely drunk. I mean, getting really drunk around a stranger from the internet whom you've just met is concerning to begin with. Then at around 11:30pm she texted me and said she was going to crash at a friend's house because she was so drunk (I sincerely hope the "friend" wasn't the date she'd just met). She's shown self-destructive alcoholic tendencies before in the past (drinking as an "escape" and drinking a LOT, and being in denial about how much she drank), but what really worries me is that she's currently on some pretty strong anti-depressants because of the suicide attempt. She knows that you're not supposed to drink alcohol while on them, although I'm not sure if she knows WHY that is -- namely that alcohol can cancel out the effects of some anti-depressants, or even make depression more extreme. I know my own anti-depressants say not to drink alcohol while on them because they effect your liver. So I know that at least with mine there's also a physical health risk with drinking too much alcohol. So, would it be out of line for me to ask for her therapist's contact info to tell them that I'm really concerned about her safety? If that is off the table... what the hell do I do?

[Redskies]

I can give you my opinion about this, and hope someone else with more solid explainable reasons than "because it seems right" pitches in too

There are very legitimate reasons why you asking for contact details for somebody in her therapy/medical support systems is absolutely reasonable and in line: it's part of a safety plan for her, given that she was hospitalised a short time ago, and that feeling any kind of big responsibility-weight for her well-being is beyond your own capabilities at the moment. Do you and she already have an agreement and plan in place about who you could and would call if you're seriously concerned for her safety? I think that's important for both of you, and a completely reasonable thing for you to need and ask for.

With the specific things in your last post, I'm feeling pretty iffy about calling someone else's therapist over; it's feeling a bit intrusive and parenting. I understand why you're so concerned, and no, in the overall context it doesn't sound healthy or particularly safe. It's also not sounding, at least to me, like emergency situations. It's ultimately your friend's own responsibility to take her own unhealthy and unsafe behaviours and coping mechanisms to her therapist and doctors. From what you've said about her, I'd also guess that she actually needs to learn that and how to do it. It's not your responsibility to keep her safe and well. For anything she does when the two of you are together, or anything she does in your shared living place, you get to have a say because that involves you: you can express concern about her, and ultimately ask her to stop unhealthy/unsafe behaviour around you or take it elsewhere. What she does in her own life, though, is really up to her. It might not be a very wise route she's taking at the moment, but people really do need to find their own way, including making some mistakes and doing some not-good things sometimes. We can't pick someone up and put them on a better path, even if we're actually right about it being a better path.

It might help to think about if you'd consider calling for outside help if someone else was doing these things: are these things, in themselves, a reason to call for outside help in order to prevent harm?

Are you feeling like you're able to go on living with her and still have enough distance from her difficulties? It's sounding like you're still feeling pretty responsible for her, and that's rough on you. It's genuinely really hard to live with someone who's having a massively hard time and not feel unreasonably responsible for improving things for them, and top of that you have some previous history with this person. Like Heather talked about above, it's understandable and workable if you need to consider making a change.

[Onionpie]

Ack it's so hard to read this stuff because it's so true. I texted my mum about it that night, and I also emailed my therapist. My mum said "yes you should contact her therapist because it's about her well-being!! You should find a way of getting her therapist's info even if it means telling a white lie like 'I'm asking for a friend who wants a reference' because it's for her mental safety!!!" and I realized that that made me so super uncomfortable and even more sure that it was intrusive, and I was reminded of exactly who has raised me to have such difficulty with boundaries in close relationships... cough cough. But my therapist said exAAACCCTLY what you just said, and I was like. Damn. Yeah. Shit.

I had actually asked T (the next morning) if I could contact her therapist if I was ever worried about her safety, and she said that sounded like a good idea. But according to my therapist, therapists can't even confirm or deny whether someone is their patient, so it'd probably be kind of useless anyway. It's hard because I have NO fucking clue who else I could possibly contact -- my therapist suggested T's sister, but her sister lives off in another city a few hours away, and also I am totally unclear on whether T likes/trusts her sister or not so I don't know how much she would be able to do to help.

I asked T if she KNEW what the dangers of drinking alcohol while on anti-depressants were (I wanted to know, in terms of where she was at with her suicidal tendencies, whether she was making a consciously dangerous choice, or just an uninformed one), and she said she didn't, so I explained them to her and said I had been very concerned for her physical and mental health that night. She said she had already decided not to drink much again because she had felt so crappy afterwards. She had seen her therapist the next day, so I said I hope that had helped her with her feelings and she said it didn't... so great. But I didn't dig deeper and let her talk to me about those feelings.

I think if she DOES get extremely drunk again, but around me (because you're right, what she does elsewhere by herself, I can't do nothin' about) -- I WOULD want to contact someone in her medical support network... WHICH SHE DOESN'T HAVE THOUGH! But I would want to because that would be her making a consciously dangerous choice which would be awfully close to her suicidal tendencies (especially since alcohol + antidepressants can = even more intense depression). I think I WOULD absolutely do that for someone I wasn't as close to -- if I knew they were on medication that conflicted with alcohol, and they had just consumed a lot of alcohol (like, black-out drunk like she had been), I would absolutely want to contact someone that could help them. Maybe a partner or family member of theirs to get them to come pick the person up and keep an eye on them in case a medical emergency DID happen. But T doesn't have anyone like that in her life, hence the total confusion about who I should contact if I'm ever worried about her safety :/

Just thinking about her getting that drunk again, while out somewhere else -- and knowing that there isn't anything I could do to make sure she's safe and doesn't like... die of liver failure or something. That just makes me so stressed out, even just thinking about that. So in answer to your question:

"Are you feeling like you're able to go on living with her and still have enough distance from her difficulties?"

Not at all. It's getting ridiculous. I'm getting a lot better at shutting down the conversations and not playing the therapist role for her, but I am still THINKING about her issues all the time and FEELING responsible for her all the time and she still comes in and fucking dumps her load of garbage on me as soon as I'm home from work :/ There is just drama constantly and her life is a huge fucking mess all the goddamn time and she seems completely unable to do anything except make it even more messy for herself, it's neverending holy shit. I kept thinking to myself like "well maybe I can have this conversation with her when things have calmed down a tiny bit, this week has been super dramatic and intense for her" but SURPRISE every goddamn week has been like that for the past 6 weeks living here. I know it's been like that forever and for always. I thought it was because her partner was an abusive asshole so she always had stuff to (understandably) complain about, but I just don't fucking know anymore. She is totally unable to deal right now and nothing I can say will fucking fix it.

Reading this back to myself, it is SO clear that I am completely unable to handle having this living arrangement; look at how frustrated I am all the time. And I know the constant stress has been seeping (okay, more like pouring) out into my relationship with my partner, and I've been wrecking that by being angry and tired all the time. I'm even finding I have less patience for the kids at work. It's just all-round not good. I really need to magic myself into having the guts to get her to move out...

[Heather]

But according to my therapist, therapists can't even confirm or deny whether someone is their patient, so it'd probably be kind of useless anyway.

But that actually doesn't matter here, because you're not asking her therapist FOR information, you're just giving that therapist information they can use. In other words, her therapist can't talk to you about her, or respond back to you with anything that tells you if she's their patient or not, but they CAN take info you give them to use if she is. Make sense?

So, I agree with you that honestly, this just doesn't sound like a good setup for you. It's clear that you're very unable to shut down your own caretaker tendencies (goodness knows I know a thing or 12 about that myself!), and she's also enabling that, from what I can tell. So, if she can't have healthy boundaries with that and you can't hold them yourself, then this just can't work, and isn't going to be a good thing for either of you.

Really, it sounds to me like it would be best to have an honest conversation about that, and then just start working together to change this housing situation. You don't have to leave her in the lurch if that feels that way for you, btw. I think that it would be a much healthier and more constructive use of your caretaker tendencies to put them into helping her find a new place to live than to have them be playing a part in keeping you both stuck and becoming more entrenched in this.