"Not Like Other Girls" In Media that Shaped Me

[Onionpie]

Sunshine and I were discussing in another thread a little while ago the attitude of "I'm not like those OTHER girls". That is, the attitude that if, as a woman, you act like "one of the guys" and reject femininity, then you're superior to feminine women who are just "shallow" and "hysterical". This is often accompanied by the attitude of "oh all my friends are guys, girls are just too much drama".

When I was younger, just entering my teenage years, I really really struggled with where I fit (or really didn't fit) with femininity and the world around me. Because of all the pressure I felt, I grew to resent other women, and I became one of those girls who unleashed my internalized misogyny towards other women and thought that I was cooler, more complex, more deep than they were because I wasn't feminine and I was "not like those other girls".

I think a HUGE contributing factor to this attitude were the books I read. I LOVED fantasy and sci-fi books about women who broke the rules and saved the world and rode dragons and fought in wars. I just finished reading a book that I would have LOVED as a teenager, about a scientist/historian woman in a parallel-world victorian era who studies dragons. But I noticed that it was absolutely rife with "I'm not like all those other girls who are so SHALLOW and BORING". This made me realized how pervasive that narrative was in all of the books I read throughout my adolescence, and how much that had influenced me growing up.

Have any of you noticed similar narratives in any of the media you consume or used to consume when you were younger? Did you find yourself internalizing it, or did you feel uncomfortable with those narratives? Have you consumed any media that send the OPPOSITE message, or other internalized-misogyny messages?

[Carmen]

Yes i know exactly what you are talking about Onionpie!
I was actually just having a discussion with some friends about how female super-hero or save-the-day characters in children's or young adult books are always lacking any feminine qualities. Despite being celebrated for breaking gender norms and having a female character save the day for once, they are often just perpetuating stereotypes and gendered stigmas. Almost all these characters completely reject femininity as if someone can't be feminine and save the day too! Hmf! Personalities and masculine/feminine characteristics are put into such stark terms of either/or and nowhere in between. If only all those books and the media could acknowledge that we are all on our owns spectrums in between (or not even on the spectrum!).

[squintern]

I also read a ton of young-adult fantasy as a kid, and the one author who I remember being very good at dispelling all of that gender stereotyping is Tamora Pierce. There's a particular group of women who attend to one of the queens who are expected to not only go to balls, attend court, and generally be excellent ladies, but also ride and fight with the queen (who is a warrior herself) when needed. Many of the leading ladies begin their story rejecting traditional female roles and qualities but adopt more balance as they grow up or experience more of the world. There's a very lot of "I may be a knight, but stuff it, I want my ears pierced and to wear pretty dresses" and "I am a perfect lady at court, but mess with me and you'll be stunned by how quickly my cloth-magic can make your own clothes kill you". And none of her characters are clones-- they each have their own way of being strong and fierce and scary but also have something to balance that out, whether it be enjoying their duties at court or being very maternal with younger family members or being a bit vain.

I also really enjoyed reading Isobelle Carmody's Obernewtyn series, but looking back at them I think the main female character has a bit too much of a "My mission is to save the world, pretty things are a huge waste of time!" attitude!

[Sam W]

Squintern, I second Tamora Pierce's books as ones that subvert the "warrior girl is not like other girls" story (I loved the Lioness Quartet. Sadly, a lot of other fantasy and sci fi (and even historical fiction) doesn't do that. I think part of it is there's often one female character to a bunch of dude characters, so we never get to see a spectrum of girls. One series I like that succeeds is the Lunar Chronicles. Each of the four girl protagonists is very distinct and fleshed out, and the "I'm not like other girls" is absent from their way of looking at the world.

The other one I remember from my teen years was the Pink song "stupid girls." It really captured how I felt when I was an angry, weirdo 14 year old, but listening to it now I can see how it reinforces the pretty=not bright or shallow idea

[Sunshine]

I remember being a bit bewildered and intimidated by this kind of narrative in books and films when I was kid and a teen, because I thought those "not like other girls" strong female heroes were really cool, but they were so unlike me and I couldn't identify with them. Made me feel sort of inadequate.

I really liked Eowyn from Lord of the Rings, because in the book, she lays down her weapons at the end and becomes a healer who protects life instead of a warrior who destroys it. I was surprised when I learned that most people consider this ending misogynistic / sexist on Tolkien's part and it wasn't included in the film version. To me, it always seemed as if Eowyn was the only one of the fighters who learned any kind of wisdom and I considered her superior to the guys.

I read a lot of older books when I was little. Maybe I internalized outdated gender norms because of this. But I didn't really see anything wrong with female characters who were kind, nurturing, peaceful, gentle, etc. They always seemed like people I could become friends with. And I never believed that kicking ass or slaying monsters is the only way to be strong. I became frustrated that the male characters were often more important to the narrative and got most of the narrator's approval, but I didn't want the females to be just like them. I wanted them to be more valued for who they are.

Not that I don't like tomboyish, brave, adventurous, cool female characters! I often really love them (and I am sure I had a crush on more than one of them when I was little).

I guess what I like is a broad spectrum of different women in a story. Male characters aren't defined by being male, I think female characters should be more than just "the woman of the story".

[Snorkmaiden]

I didn't really see anything wrong with female characters who were kind, nurturing, peaceful, gentle, etc.

Neither did I. But I could not really relate to them. And yes, I felt disappointed that Eowyn returned to her 'natural role' in the end. To me, it felt like a forced choice, not a happily made one.

Is it internalised mysogyny if you're not the kind, nurturing, peaceful, gentle type? What if that's simply not who you are?
I've never looked down on the traditionally feminine traits, I've just always felt that they were not for me.
As for media that shaped me, I always liked the way Pippi Longstocking doesn't look down on anything or anyone, she just follows her own path; wearing big boots, but also dresses when she feels like it. (And for me, that means never.)

[Sunshine]

I didn't really see anything wrong with female characters who were kind, nurturing, peaceful, gentle, etc.

Neither did I. But I could not really relate to them. And yes, I felt disappointed that Eowyn returned to her 'natural role' in the end. To me, it felt like a forced choice, not a happily made one.

Is it internalised mysogyny if you're not the kind, nurturing, peaceful, gentle type? What if that's simply not who you are?
I've never looked down on the traditionally feminine traits, I've just always felt that they were not for me.
As for media that shaped me, I always liked the way Pippi Longstocking doesn't look down on anything or anyone, she just follows her own path; wearing big boots, but also dresses when she feels like it. (And for me, that means never.)

What I loved about Pippi when I was little was how anarchistic she is and how little she lets the grownups boss her around...

No, I do not think that being something other than the nurturing, gentle type has anything to do with internalized misogyny. I only think it's misogynistic when girls / women pride themselves on not getting along with other women.

About Eowyn: You are probably right, it most likely is a forced choice. Maybe not inside the narrative, but forced by the author because she's a woman. Only when I read those books as a teenager, I simply did not get that. I saw the story from my point of view. And my problem with Lord of the Rings (and many, many other fantasy and SciFi works) was that all these heroes were warriors, who killed people all day and I was supposed to get excited about that and admire them. But I don't admire warfare, and I don't think killing anything is a heroic deed. Of course in stories, the victims are "evil" and that justifies the violence; the rules are different and I get that. I am very capable of enjoying action scenes and such, there's just always this nagging voice in the back of my head that says "this isn't really right". So when after the danger is over a brave and capable woman decides to do something productive and positive with her life, something that I can admire and cheer for whole-heartedly, of course I am going to be glad. I also really love Sam, because he plants all those trees and also has a plan for his future other than "um, well, uh, I'll just ride around brandishing my sword and, um, be cool." I wasn't unhappy that Eowyn laid down her weapons, I was sad that this wasn't deemed necessary for most of the men - even though there really wasn't much evil left to fight against.

Of course fighting in fiction can be understood on a metaphorical level, and admiring fictional warriors doesn't mean you have to be pro-violence in real life, I get that. They can be symbols of strength, empowerment, bravery, all sorts of good things. And women can be all that. It just makes me a little sad when I see works where a girl picks up a sword / gun / other weapon, kills a bunch of people, hangs around with only guys, gets applauded for not "being like other girls" and then the authors high-five each other for being so progressive.

[Snorkmaiden]

I also really love Sam, because he plants all those trees and also has a plan for his future other than "um, well, uh, I'll just ride around brandishing my sword and, um, be cool."

Yes! I loved that too. It can't all just be swordfights for evermore, normal life needs to recommence sooner or later. And Sam is also a positive example of a man who is very caring and gentle.

I wasn't unhappy that Eowyn laid down her weapons, I was sad that this wasn't deemed necessary for most of the men - even though there really wasn't much evil left to fight against.

This is a good point, well made.

[Onionpie]

I think we're actually making two different points here. I LOVE tamora pierce and I think those books that are like "I can kick ass AND be feminine" are super important and awesome to have and there aren't enough of them at all.

However, what I'm thinking about is the need for books where the character doesn't necessarily fit any of the feminine gender norms BUT they are NOT misogynistic towards other women. I needed a kickass masculine/androgynous woman who wasn't pressured into being feminine but didn't also resent other women.

Because, I kind of actually take issue with the idea of a character starting off more masculine and then accepting aspects of femininity as "more balanced" and like an inevitable result of becoming more mature. Because some women's gender expressions/identities just don't fit traditional femininity at all, and that doesn't mean they're not balanced -- what's important is to not project internalised misogyny onto other women.

Of course, accepting femine traits that we DO feel fit with our own expressions, and have just been rejecting in ourselves because of our internalised misogyny, IS a sign of growth, and I know I personally have gone through that journey, and so to read about those characters is really good for youth. But I do see that more often than characters that are more masculine/un-feminine (and stay that way) but don't hold it against other women. I think we need more of both.

[Sunshine]

Of course, accepting femine traits that we DO feel fit with our own expressions, and have just been rejecting in ourselves because of our internalised misogyny, IS a sign of growth, and I know I personally have gone through that journey, and so to read about those characters is really good for youth. But I do see that more often than characters that are more masculine/un-feminine (and stay that way) but don't hold it against other women. I think we need more of both.

Totally agree. 100% and then some.

I can't think of any fictional character off the top of my head, all that comes to mind for me is my best friend, who always has been and still is very, very tomboyish / butch / androgynous / whatever you want to call it, but who has never in any way expressed or shown anything but appreciation and respect for other women, no matter how femme or not they are. Maybe I should just write a book about her, she's a hero to me anyway

[Onionpie]

You should totally do that! I know I would for sure read it I think it is my life quest to find books like this, I don't think I've found a single one yet. Man, what I would have given to have those books at age 13.

I read Tamora Pierce's Terrier back when it originally came out and I remember loving it to bits, I've been meaning to read the other two in that series (for like five years now, lol). I remember really really relating to Beka Cooper strongly, but I only have vague memories of that one. Does anyone remember what her attitude is like towards other women?

I think navigating femininity, external misogyny, external pressure, internal misogyny, and internal pressure is such a hugely complex thing. Finding that balance between what we feel really truly expresses our inner selves (maybe it's just not possible? Maybe some of us have senses of selves that are just a little too fluid and so our expression would have to be constantly in flux as well? I've often wondered this about myself, and I was known in grade 8 as having a totally bizarro style that was different each day, probably because of this fluctuating sense of self), finding a way to let go of all expectations and pressures that we put on ourselves and that we absorb from the outside world.

For example: I've started to feel lately that I've put too much focus on being palatable to society, which I think has gone along with my trying to become more socially capable, which has happened due to a big increase in self-consciousness, an awareness of my total social awkwardness. But I'm coming to a place where I can understand my social awkwardness as not the absolute sin -- hell, I know other people who are socially awkward but totally adorable and I love them and they're not painful to interact with. And this all ties into my gender expression as well, because I've always felt like my external expression has coincided with my total "awkwardness" and that I make people uncomfortable and not want to interact with me, and so I've kind of learned to incorporate some more conventional aspects of femininity to like... round out my sharp edges of awkwardness. (Although I also sometimes totally wield it in a way to be like "ha see I totally CAN follow your rules, I just don't WANT to, fuck you guys")

So as I come to terms with this, I'm starting to lean back towards my 13 year-old-self, hilariously -- I'm starting to dress more unapologetically punk/emo, starting to wear a bit more of a mix of styles. But this time, I'm not shying away from dresses at all because I DO love them. I'll just wear them with my doc martens

So I think it's even more complex than just navigating our own femininity -- it's also about our sense of selves as a whole, not just in relation to our gender. I would really love to see more books for youth delve into just how complex it is to begin your journey of self-discovery and to try and understand your whole self just as you are, and to project that acceptance towards other women as well.