Does this count as rape (Not my experience)

[Iwanthelp]

I moderate an online group and something came up that's disturbing me. I think one of the members inadvertently confessed to assaulting someone that didn't have the capacity for consent. I'll post a chatlog and bold points I find relevant, names are changed.
On top of that I feel the story he's presented has holes, the person had bruising on her inner thighs that he...knew about somehow? to begin with, yet had sex with him six times with however much alcohol in her system. She passed out at one point (not during sex) so I'm not sure how she could have had the energy/pain tolerance for six times to begin with. Sounds like a dumb macho brag at best.
I'm not feeling good about it because there's other dumb/creepy shit the dudes' done (A rapeface meme joke at another person, *stops molesting* and some weird shit about dudes having it worse than women or whatever) and this isn't the kind of thing I want tainting my space. All things considered I'm considering skipping events to avoid his presence for a while.
A part of me doesn't want to think on it indepth because I've had enough of groups/spaces falling to shit because people couldn't just label something horrible for what it was and tried to sugarcoat or handwave instead.


ctrl+f purple(twice) if you want to go straight to the points that makes my 'is this rape' alarm go off, bolded parts for emphasis.


It's been brought up with other moderators in the group but I think this isn't pegging as rape for them, one is 'keep an eye on him to see what else he does' another just...thinks it's some 'love triangle/not my business' thing I guess? I get there's a high possibility the girl involved doesn't identify it as rape, but...

Cried about it 'cause I think it's reminding me of stuff that happened to a friend and how (at least I don't think) she's not qualified some of her experiences as rape ergo she doesn't realize but I can't say anything because I don't want to open a trauma floodgate and shit feels awful. Anyway, tangent. Chatlogs below, names changed.

I'm ???, dude in question is ***. I'll use different symbols for other people.

________



*** - Yesterday at 10:48 PM
Guys I'm in alot of trouble here
My high school crush called me on the way home from work crying asking me to pick her up. So I did. She has a boyfriend. She's drunk at 5 in the afternoon and she has bruises all over her arms. Said her bf beat her up a little last night and she doesn't wanna go home.
So now I made her a bed in my spare bedroom but she wants to sleep in my room. She's cuddling up to me on the couch while we watch a movie and I'm like 0_0

??? - Yesterday at 10:57 PM
yeah i think she'd be too drunk/hysterical for shared bed right now
iiii...dunno what to do there 3:, ask her what she needs?

*** - Yesterday at 10:59 PM
I did she just said she wants a safe place to be. This is hard.... both sense

*** - Yesterday at 11:00 PM
I'm no white knight. I dunno why she chose me. I left my first fiance for this girl. Then she left me out to dry.

___ - Yesterday at 11:01 PM
Just be a friend to her. Nothing else.

*** - Yesterday at 11:01 PM
She's bruises on her inner thigh too

___ - Yesterday at 11:01 PM
Oh christ.

$$$ - Yesterday at 11:02 PM
There's abuse hotlines
Which are great at their job

*** - Yesterday at 11:02 PM
She's fucked right now. I don't think she could hold a decent intervention like that

$$$ - Yesterday at 11:02 PM
I'd wait for the shock to pass, then call them yourself

___ - Yesterday at 11:03 PM
That sounds fair. Wait until she calms down, then call them.

*** - Yesterday at 11:03 PM
Well I went up and tool a shower. She's passed out now that I came back. Thank god...
But it's gonna be a long night...

$$$ - Yesterday at 11:04 PM
Legitmately. Those hotlines are funded and staffed by people who know what to do
They are your best, professional bet

*** - Yesterday at 11:05 PM
Yeah, I think I'll be good. Just washed the fire out of my blood. She got really cuddly for a second. I had to make an excuse to escape

___ - Yesterday at 11:05 PM
...yeah, that's bad. She might do things she's going to regret later. She's looking for someone who won't hurt her.
Hotline, call, even if just to ask what you can do to help her.

*** - Yesterday at 11:06 PM
K I'll do that

___ - Yesterday at 11:06 PM
Good luck, man.

*** - Yesterday at 11:09 PM
I don't need luck. I need to maintain a conscious

___ - Yesterday at 11:09 PM
Fair enough.
Fokken mosquito hunt, every night.

??? - Today at 12:04 AM
i got delayed by the dog deciding i would love it if he made a titanic mess downstairs, but scarleteen site prolly has articles laying around on 'wat do' here

/// - Today at 5:59 AM
Doge delays

??? - Today at 9:16 AM
doge delays are fine
desecrating downstairs is not fine

___ - Today at 11:07 AM
Havoc squad: causing havoc everywhere we go.
...I kind of want to make a terrorist squad with that name.
(dogname) can join too. We can be the Terrier Squad.


Purple
[rule]


*** - Today at 12:09 PM
I'm so weak

___ - Today at 12:11 PM
Oh dear.
I think I know what comes next.

*** - Today at 12:13 PM
She jumped my bones. And I had no will power ..


___ - Today at 12:13 PM
Yeeeeeap.

*** - Today at 12:13 PM
She wasnt upset though this morning. Especially because it was 6 times

___ - Today at 12:14 PM
jesus
Did you sleep at all?!

??? - Today at 12:14 PM
are we talking like assault or

*** - Today at 12:14 PM
Not really ahaha I'm at work so tired

___ - Today at 12:14 PM
Sex, ???.

??? - Today at 12:14 PM
oh k
i heard 'jumped bones' on discord and hadn't tabbed in yet
yeah sometimes people have sex afterwards as a sort of 'cleanser' like 'last x in me wasnt z' logic

*** - Today at 12:16 PM
Well I got the whole story

??? - Today at 12:16 PM
iii wouldnt do it again though, like she wasn't in a great place+if she does opt to report that uh...yeah i'm pretty sure that evidence-tampers more than a shower at this point

*** - Today at 12:17 PM
She is struggling with drinking right now. She got super drunk and she attacked her bf while sleeping and he grabbed her and drug her out of bed,

??? - Today at 12:18 PM
this might be heavy for discord, like i'd say nsfw section would be better but that's...porn

??? - Today at 12:18 PM
We're all adults here, though.

??? - Today at 12:18 PM
yeah im just 'woah this heavy'

*** - Today at 12:18 PM
Nothing here is about sex. There was no rape or anything

??? - Today at 12:18 PM
bruises tho
it's possible she;s backsliding because 'shit i dont wanna accuse significant other of x' and that it still happened

___ - Today at 12:19 PM
Sounds like she initiated it, though.

*** - Today at 12:19 PM
Like I said. She has been drinking every day, she had a fit, and tried to beat on her bf. He had to forcibly remove her from his house because she was attacking him for no reason.

??? - Today at 12:20 PM
it doesn't explain thigh bruises

___ - Today at 12:20 PM
Women fight with their whole bodies, though.
Kicking, clawing.

??? - Today at 12:20 PM
yeah but unless he's punting her in the groin that leaves questions

___ - Today at 12:20 PM
I could see her hurting herself.

*** - Today at 12:20 PM
She swore to me with every thing she had that she wasn't rape

??? - Today at 12:21 PM
i'd go with what she says sure, but if she comes out saying 'actually was rape' then i wouldnt be surprised

*** - Today at 12:21 PM
She just need to go to rehab. She has a problem

___ - Today at 12:21 PM
Yeah.
She sounds like a smart girl though. Hopefully she won't end up blaming you for anything.
Radfem mental gymnastics are a dangerous thing.

??? - Today at 12:22 PM
+ alcohol lowers inhibitions, it's not gonna make a nonviolent person start wailing on somebody

*** - Today at 12:22 PM
Nah. She was talking to me this morning and said, I need to tell my BF I had sex with you. I feel guilty and I don't want to hide this

___ - Today at 12:23 PM
To be frank, alcohol affects everyone differently.

??? - Today at 12:23 PM
yeah but it doesn't create violence/anger out of nowhere, it was already present

*** - Today at 12:23 PM
Yeah dude. She woke up last night cursing me out that I didn't have water next to her.

___ - Today at 12:23 PM
snerk.

*** - Today at 12:24 PM
Shes an angry drunk

??? - Today at 12:24 PM
so either it was some weird selfdefense shit or she's capable of attacking a significant other

*** - Today at 12:24 PM
Trust me. She has some darkness down there. She bit me last night because I wouldn't move over (I was already on the edge of the bed )

___ - Today at 12:25 PM
...

*** - Today at 12:25 PM
Shit was kinda weird.

??? - Today at 12:25 PM
/read a lot of lundy bancroft, the guy worked with violent drunks for 25 years? and dispelled that the 'oh it was just the drink making them do it' is bullshit basically

___ - Today at 12:26 PM
Yeeeeah she's got issues she needs to start working on, stat.

*** - Today at 12:26 PM
Dude she's just self loathing right now. I'm trying to get her into AA meetings but she is in the self pity stage right now.

??? - Today at 12:26 PM
i mean i self loathe but i dont bite people, they're behaviours coming from different places

___ - Today at 12:27 PM
Nonetheless, I'm glad you're both safe, and I hope you don't get the boyfriend's fist in your face. Still gonna wag my finger at you though.

*** - Today at 12:27 PM
I'm not denying that (insert my username here)

??? - Today at 12:27 PM
not trying to kill your mood, just - she went from grateful to attacking you physically over a minor annoyance

*** - Today at 12:27 PM
But if she attacked me ( a high schoolers crush she hasn't seen in 5 years) I'm pretty sure she is capable of attacking her bf.

___ - Today at 12:28 PM
Oh yeah.

??? - Today at 12:28 PM
nyeah :/

*** - Today at 12:28 PM
And the fact she admits that's what happened. It would be easy to get my attention by saying he beat hrr.

??? - Today at 12:28 PM
i...recommend the 'why does he do that' book a lot, most of it centers on dude abusers but there's some lines about other ones/debunks the 'i did x becus drunk' a lot
like some will do temporarily guilt but that isn't going to stop their behaviour on its' own
the pdf has fuckn huge-ass font though which is a pain

*** - Today at 12:29 PM
Anyway I'm at work. Gotta to

??? - Today at 12:30 PM
hav fun

___ - Today at 12:30 PM
Take care.
Well. Now I feel like I need a drink, and I hate being drunk, hah.

??? - Today at 12:32 PM
no baileys for me, parents arent home and my personal rule is 'have someone else around so my dumb ass doesnt fall down a hole'

___ - Today at 12:32 PM
That's smart.

*** - Today at 12:32 PM
Don't worry. I covered my ass. This morning while she was talking to me about it, I recorded it on my phone.

___ - Today at 12:32 PM
thumbs up
Shitty thing to do, but sometimes you just have to.

??? - Today at 12:33 PM
hope she was sober when the 6times thing happened otherwise eeiiihhnotgood
/i cant keep track of when sobering is

*** - Today at 12:33 PM
Exactly. But this was this morning. She slept 9 hours.
She was pretty damn sober when we woke up and did it again. Her litteral words are "I feel bad but it was so good.." which made me feel terrible

purple

??? - Today at 12:35 PM
yyyeah but was she drunk at any point when instigating sex?

*** - Today at 12:35 PM
Like last night

??? - Today at 12:35 PM
like that yes

___ - Today at 12:36 PM
I think that's a yes.

*** - Today at 12:36 PM
Yes

??? - Today at 12:36 PM
yeeahh drunk hysterical people can't really consent, sec phone

*** - Today at 12:36 PM
Dude I know the rules. I know I could get hemed up. But she's not going to do that

___ - Today at 12:36 PM
Let's... not make this any more complicated than it already is. Dude needs to work.

*** - Today at 12:39 PM
This shit was morally gray when I started. I knew I was about to wade into a deep lake. But she was like my first love, like I said. I left my first fiance for this chick. But now she's got issues. I've been picking up the pieces of this girl all my life. This is just the same story at a different age
Back when I was 15, she was a senior when I was a sophomore. She got fucked up on pills and passed out at a red light. I had to drive her home with no license, pick her up and put her in bed.

___ - Today at 12:43 PM
People make mistakes when drunk. That doesn't automatically make drunken sex rape. Assuming that infantilizes the drunken party and implies that they cannot make decisions for themselves.

??? - Today at 12:44 PM
they kind of can't, i mean it's why you wouldn't let 'em sign contracts. two drunk people=sure, drunk vs sober = that gets messy fast at best
i'm gonna pull out of the convo for a bit

___ - Today at 12:45 PM
Yeah, let's drop this discussion. This is how flame wars begin. The situation is over anyway.

*** - Today at 12:46 PM
Yep. Everything fine. She's fine, all smiles this morning. She's happier over all. Until the water works happen with the bf.
Ugh

*** - Today at 12:46 PM
I'm such a pos

*** - Today at 1:03 PM
Soooo. I'm gonna need help blasting to lvl 40 by Saturday

[Sam W]

Hi Iwanthelp,

Technically, and as you probably know, someone who is intoxicated can't consent to sex (in the U.S, not sure about Scotland). So from a legal standpoint this would be considered sexual assault. However, we don't actually know how she feels about what happened (we only have this dude's account) or how she would label it.

As for the dude, he is exhibiting a lot of red flags in his description. The obvious biggie is "had sex with a heavily intoxicated person multiple times (while he was not intoxicated)." But I also notice that he repeatedly frames her as "crazy" or unpredictable, casts himself as just trying to help and being overpowered by his desire (which is BS. He could have, and should have, not had sex), and uses the "morally grey" argument. Also the way he frames her as always needing his help and somehow that means he...what, deserves to have sex with her, makes my skin crawl.

[Iwanthelp]

Yeah, it's...a fucking mess, if this was some random person we could interact with or who explicitly identified it as not-good in his (probably skewed) accounts I imagine the rest would be taking a different tone or not falling for the 'grey area' bullshit.

On top of that...He mentioned "Dude I know the rules. I know I could get hemed up." in the logs I posted and when I looked at urban dictionary one of the definitions is...arrested? the rest are locked up/beaten, which I assume means what could happen if the boyfriend gets ahold of him.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... emmed%20up link has some general racism/ableism weirdness.
Like that could damn well mean he knew it was illegal and went ahead anyway.


He added a screenshot of a phone conversation with her today, I assume one of those smartphone things. I don't have one. He added "This girls a devil" at the end of the log. She told her boyfriend about what happened and kind of laughed it off as ticking cheating in a happy relationship off her bucket list. Which...I mean she's feeling okay in the moment and that feels better than realization of awful hitting I guess. I can't even give a shit about hypothetical cheating at this point because I don't think it was consensual on her end and I don't trust this guy.

[Sam W]

Ick. Something I might suggest is setting a limit with him (if you have the capacity as a moderator to do so) about not posting anymore screenshots or similar of his interactions with her. He's sharing some really private stuff about her that she likely wouldn't want shared with people she didn't know (ticking another he's not terribly concerned with consent box).

You mention feeling uncomfortable with him on several occasions. Do you know if there are people in your shared community that feel a similar way about his behavior?

[Iwanthelp]

Posted a 'you shouldnt really do x' message then I logged like a wuss. Held it off for hours. my reward is going to cook spaghetti I suppose.

At the moment I feel kinda...sad, a weird empty and detached. Plus denial because I don't want to admit this is something that's in my space, if I sit too long to consider the implications (Had groups I had to leave before because they couldn't admit a person was abusive/creepy for example and it hit me so hard I wanted to just go into a coma and wake up when everything was over). I was already a bit sporadic in involvement in the group lately, this is just...gonna knock me out of things there for a little while. I should do the stand-up thing but with nobody else agreeing on "we should remove him upright/this is rape" the fight and hope is kinda knocked out of me right now.

There was a hidden thread about 'wat do about this guy' but the consensus is kind of 'wait and see' rather than 'kick already', so officers aren't happy with him+someone didn't like a rape joke he did but they missed it at the time it was made (asked them about it today since I missed it at the time myself). They're keeping an eye on him but that feels like keeping an eye on a smoking crater that's a magnet for more meteors at this point. I'm probably not gonna be someone sticking around to watch for offenses though, much as that's self-defeating.

[Sam W]

I think prioritizing your own mental health and well-being is the way to go with this situation, and it sounds like you're already trying to do that. It's so sucky that you've already had to leave groups before for not acknowledging creepy people in the space, and that you may have to do that here. Are their spaces that you know of that fill a similar niche to this one that you could check out?

If you wanted to, you could pose the question in that thread of "what is the threshold of behavior before he's kicked out?" It's easy to say you're monitoring a situation, but if the other folks haven't determined what counts as too much out of this guy, monitoring may not be that effective (as you've already pointed out).

[RandomMod]

Hey. Owner/moderator of OP's online community here.

To clarify my stance regarding this guy (and the stance of a few others): most of us wouldn't classify the above as rape, having had (and initiated) drunk sex, breakup sex, bandaid sex and other various arguably questionable kinds of sex before, and not regretted any of it. There are degrees in "drunk", and sometimes, when you're escaping a bad situation, jumping some random guy's bones is exactly what you need in that moment.

Having said that, none of us would've chosen to jump -that- guy's bones. We all acknowledge that he -is- creepy, on account of this and for other reasons that the OP has touched upon; we also don't particularly like him. On top of that, the OP is a long-standing, active member of the community, and this guy is a new recruit; frankly, the OP's continued mental wellbeing matters to us more than some skeevy guy getting perhaps not treated absolutely fairly.

However, since the quoted conversation, the guy has been behaving himself as far as I'm aware, and we want to give him a second chance, since we were the people who recruited him. He pulls anything like this again, though, he's out.

[Redskies]

Obviously, what anyone chooses to do about a particular person or behaviour in your own community is entirely up to the people whose community it is.

To clear up a few things, though:

- no-one other than the woman described in this situation can know whether those sexual encounters were assault or not, because no-one else can know how much her decision-making may have been affected by her substance use or her personal circumstances. We can't know whether she would have made the same decisions without those in the mix, or whether she was able to make decisions or be in control of herself the way she usually would. (If she couldn't, for either or both of those, there can be no consent, and lack of consent meets all ethical standards and many countries' legal standards of sexual abuse/rape, if that wasn't clear.)

- it is never okay to engage in sexual contact with someone who doesn't have the capacity to consent, or who is showing massive indicators that they might not have the capacity to consent. Guy *** clearly described knowing that she was both seriously affected by substance use and that she was in the middle of a very serious situation with her boyfriend. He knew that there were two huge reasons why she may not be capable of consent, and he went ahead anyway. That is appalling behaviour, and appallingly harmful behaviour. Even if someone literally throws themself at you while they're clearly in a mess, you do not go there - you do literally anything else, including to get yourself out of the situation if you think you might struggle with your willpower. Even if the woman involved would not consider those encounters rape, the only reason he wouldn't be a rapist is luck. That's a terrible reason for having avoided being a rapist, and it couldn't speak lower of someone.

- Re. substance use and sex: yes, sometimes people have sex when they're not sober, and everyone involved is fine with that. However, if you know you're more sober than the other person - and Guy *** was writing about that, and about just how messed up she was! - it is your responsibility as a decent human being to postpone sex until they're more sober.

- By his own account, Guy *** did an appalling thing, and indeed may have raped her. He is also, by his own description, deeply unsafe, both by doing what he did AND by thinking that it was acceptable to describe maybe-raping someone to another group of people.


We're closing this thread at this point, because as we say in our user guidelines, we're not the right place to figure out community issues on other websites or in other online communities. For anything relating to another community or managing that community, please take it to that community - thanks! We did feel that it was worthwhile making our position clear on some of the issues raised here, though, particularly as we feel strongly about our anti-rape and survivor-supporting work and advocacy.

(I also moved the thread because this discussion, by its nature, has had more to do with a possible perpetrator's point of view than a victim's, and that is inappropriate for our Abuse and Assault board.)