Feelings are complicated
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Feelings are complicated
So this has been an ongoing thing in my life for the past year; consequently, I've spent way too much time already feeling/thinking about it and telling people about it. But I'm going to post here just out of curiosity.
Character #1 – S. S and I have known each other for five years through our orchestra. We're both currently seniors in high school. He's an amazing artist—truly the best violinist I've ever met, and I know plenty of professionals with symphony jobs. S is sort of the local prodigy. Over the years and over many, many concerts, good performances, bad performances, pieces that we absolutely fell in love with by Tchaikovsky and Ravel and Shostakovich and Brahms, we've become good friends. We enjoy talking about music together, as well as our other interests in common (economics, history, philosophy, neuroscience). Moreover, we identify with each other's struggles. We're both socially awkward, and in our childhoods experienced a mixture of bewilderment at other children's behavior and a crushing sense of isolation. In a certain sense we love each other for our respective faults: I love that he is such an adult, so devastatingly responsible and capable and at the same time so insecure and vulnerable. He appreciates that I'm passionate, driven, and perfectionistic to a fault, such that I crash and burn myself all the time by overthinking and overcaring.
I realized that I had a crush on him in January 2015. The impetus: we were playing chamber music together, specifically a Brandenburg Concerto, and he was one of the soloists. We were spending many hours together each weekend rehearsing. Our relationship continued developing over the next few months, although it was quickly taking a more romantic bent. In May 2015 one of our friends in our orchestra died (let's call him B); both S and I were close to him, and it shook things up, as you can imagine. We returned in the fall a little different. S and I continued to grow closer.
Then one day there was an incident wherein I thought he was ignoring me, and I began to worry. I asked him, and he said he wasn't ignoring me, that everything was fine. But I didn't believe him, and even more, I was so afraid of losing him (just after having lost our other friend). I kept worrying and trying to restore things back to "normal" for a few months. Then one day I just hit a bottom somewhere deep in my soul, a hard, gnawing, angry feeling. I couldn't stand how I felt about S; I was angry that I liked someone who "wasn't good for me", and was devastated that I had come to feel this way about someone I cared about so much. Since then I've been in a relatively constant state of contention about this. Last year (junior year) was the worst year of my life; I spent so much time being miserable. I feel like I've come to peace lately; I can appreciate the good things about my relationship with S again, even if it doesn't have the initial innocence that a never-broken bone has.
Character #2 – N. N is also in the orchestra. He is a year younger than S and I, although smarter than both of us. I met him at a music camp the summer before I joined the orchestra. He didn't make it into the orchestra until two years later; in spite of this, he was my friend from the beginning. We were casually friends for a number of years, and, as in my friendship with S, we gradually grew closer as years and concerts passed. He was there for me whenever I needed someone to talk to, which was often, because I wasn't and am not good at talking to people. N was also close friends with our friend who died, B. That same summer (August 2015), N got in a serious bike accident and wasn't able to play music for months. I sent him cards when he was in the hospital.
N told me he liked me in March 2016. At the time, I was still freshly devastated from what happened with S. I was so, so relieved to have a new friend, a confidante and companion. I'd never thought of N romantically before; when I told him this, he was disappointed, but we kept talking. Since then, N and I have texted every day. He's become my best friend; he's more intelligent than anyone I've ever met, and satiates my curiosity on all sorts of subjects.
I feel bad because I wrote something so flowery about S, and here I'm not doing the same justice for N.
I should add that all these months I've been upset about what happened with S, my life has been bad in other ways. As a musician, I've gradually decreased my commitment and practice time since I was a freshman—I started out really idealistic, practicing to the point of obsession. Although my first few years in the orchestra certainly were a high point of my motivation, music has been my life ever since childhood, and I love it. I live it, I breathe it, it's love and religion at their utmost to me. The past year, I haven't practiced at all. Similarly, I've always been a good student academically, but after my friend died I stopped doing homework. Since then, I've failed three classes and passed all the others with poor or mediocre grades. I've spent most of the past year lying around my house, thinking, occasionally going to orchestra rehearsal and leaving barely able to hide my anxiety and fury that my friendship with S was no longer what it had been.
S and I have talked some, although not enough—here our weaknesses kill us. We're both too shy and afraid. I'm much more afraid than he is, I realize because his ability as a violinist plays the same role as physical attractiveness. To me, he's a 10. Maybe a 10.5. He's so beautiful. And then there's the fact that he's awkward and not good at publicly dealing with emotions. He has had a really hard time coping with the loss of B, and deals with it entirely privately. (I may be one of the only people outside his immediate family with whom he's talked about B at all.) That he may not be able to offer me strong reassurance deters me from asking for it.
This fall, S tried really hard to make up with me, although I still felt a little weird and I still do. You see, it's not him I'm dealing with—it's my mental construction of him. It's all the hours and hours I've spent and still spend ruminating about what happened. When I write this painfully rambling confessional out, it's clear that I love him. When I think "What would happen if you got back together with S?", it seems jarringly, neon-light obvious to me that I need to get over him. Because after all, I've spent so much time being unhappy, and it's time to be done with that. I need to get my academic performance back, I have to practice for college auditions. How do I achieve that happiness? Which path do I take? This is the stupid loop that my brain does over and over again.
And then, wherein things get complicated. N, having talked to me for all these months, is very close to me, and a very important part of my life. He's been my rock. He currently thinks we're dating; not because I told him I liked him after all but because I haven't dissuaded him. Why not? After all, he's the perfect boyfriend. "He's much more trustworthy than S." "You only like S because he's so attractive, because he's this famous violinist, really N is the one for you." Today when N was texting cutesy fluff to me, I actually participated and sent him adorable fluff back. My mom likes N.
How do I make sense of this?
TL;DR Two boys, I love them both, I want my friends to be friends and to graduate high school feeling good about myself and my decisions.
Character #1 – S. S and I have known each other for five years through our orchestra. We're both currently seniors in high school. He's an amazing artist—truly the best violinist I've ever met, and I know plenty of professionals with symphony jobs. S is sort of the local prodigy. Over the years and over many, many concerts, good performances, bad performances, pieces that we absolutely fell in love with by Tchaikovsky and Ravel and Shostakovich and Brahms, we've become good friends. We enjoy talking about music together, as well as our other interests in common (economics, history, philosophy, neuroscience). Moreover, we identify with each other's struggles. We're both socially awkward, and in our childhoods experienced a mixture of bewilderment at other children's behavior and a crushing sense of isolation. In a certain sense we love each other for our respective faults: I love that he is such an adult, so devastatingly responsible and capable and at the same time so insecure and vulnerable. He appreciates that I'm passionate, driven, and perfectionistic to a fault, such that I crash and burn myself all the time by overthinking and overcaring.
I realized that I had a crush on him in January 2015. The impetus: we were playing chamber music together, specifically a Brandenburg Concerto, and he was one of the soloists. We were spending many hours together each weekend rehearsing. Our relationship continued developing over the next few months, although it was quickly taking a more romantic bent. In May 2015 one of our friends in our orchestra died (let's call him B); both S and I were close to him, and it shook things up, as you can imagine. We returned in the fall a little different. S and I continued to grow closer.
Then one day there was an incident wherein I thought he was ignoring me, and I began to worry. I asked him, and he said he wasn't ignoring me, that everything was fine. But I didn't believe him, and even more, I was so afraid of losing him (just after having lost our other friend). I kept worrying and trying to restore things back to "normal" for a few months. Then one day I just hit a bottom somewhere deep in my soul, a hard, gnawing, angry feeling. I couldn't stand how I felt about S; I was angry that I liked someone who "wasn't good for me", and was devastated that I had come to feel this way about someone I cared about so much. Since then I've been in a relatively constant state of contention about this. Last year (junior year) was the worst year of my life; I spent so much time being miserable. I feel like I've come to peace lately; I can appreciate the good things about my relationship with S again, even if it doesn't have the initial innocence that a never-broken bone has.
Character #2 – N. N is also in the orchestra. He is a year younger than S and I, although smarter than both of us. I met him at a music camp the summer before I joined the orchestra. He didn't make it into the orchestra until two years later; in spite of this, he was my friend from the beginning. We were casually friends for a number of years, and, as in my friendship with S, we gradually grew closer as years and concerts passed. He was there for me whenever I needed someone to talk to, which was often, because I wasn't and am not good at talking to people. N was also close friends with our friend who died, B. That same summer (August 2015), N got in a serious bike accident and wasn't able to play music for months. I sent him cards when he was in the hospital.
N told me he liked me in March 2016. At the time, I was still freshly devastated from what happened with S. I was so, so relieved to have a new friend, a confidante and companion. I'd never thought of N romantically before; when I told him this, he was disappointed, but we kept talking. Since then, N and I have texted every day. He's become my best friend; he's more intelligent than anyone I've ever met, and satiates my curiosity on all sorts of subjects.
I feel bad because I wrote something so flowery about S, and here I'm not doing the same justice for N.
I should add that all these months I've been upset about what happened with S, my life has been bad in other ways. As a musician, I've gradually decreased my commitment and practice time since I was a freshman—I started out really idealistic, practicing to the point of obsession. Although my first few years in the orchestra certainly were a high point of my motivation, music has been my life ever since childhood, and I love it. I live it, I breathe it, it's love and religion at their utmost to me. The past year, I haven't practiced at all. Similarly, I've always been a good student academically, but after my friend died I stopped doing homework. Since then, I've failed three classes and passed all the others with poor or mediocre grades. I've spent most of the past year lying around my house, thinking, occasionally going to orchestra rehearsal and leaving barely able to hide my anxiety and fury that my friendship with S was no longer what it had been.
S and I have talked some, although not enough—here our weaknesses kill us. We're both too shy and afraid. I'm much more afraid than he is, I realize because his ability as a violinist plays the same role as physical attractiveness. To me, he's a 10. Maybe a 10.5. He's so beautiful. And then there's the fact that he's awkward and not good at publicly dealing with emotions. He has had a really hard time coping with the loss of B, and deals with it entirely privately. (I may be one of the only people outside his immediate family with whom he's talked about B at all.) That he may not be able to offer me strong reassurance deters me from asking for it.
This fall, S tried really hard to make up with me, although I still felt a little weird and I still do. You see, it's not him I'm dealing with—it's my mental construction of him. It's all the hours and hours I've spent and still spend ruminating about what happened. When I write this painfully rambling confessional out, it's clear that I love him. When I think "What would happen if you got back together with S?", it seems jarringly, neon-light obvious to me that I need to get over him. Because after all, I've spent so much time being unhappy, and it's time to be done with that. I need to get my academic performance back, I have to practice for college auditions. How do I achieve that happiness? Which path do I take? This is the stupid loop that my brain does over and over again.
And then, wherein things get complicated. N, having talked to me for all these months, is very close to me, and a very important part of my life. He's been my rock. He currently thinks we're dating; not because I told him I liked him after all but because I haven't dissuaded him. Why not? After all, he's the perfect boyfriend. "He's much more trustworthy than S." "You only like S because he's so attractive, because he's this famous violinist, really N is the one for you." Today when N was texting cutesy fluff to me, I actually participated and sent him adorable fluff back. My mom likes N.
How do I make sense of this?
TL;DR Two boys, I love them both, I want my friends to be friends and to graduate high school feeling good about myself and my decisions.
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Re: Feelings are complicated
Hi Faust,
There's a lot to unpack here. I'll start by mentioning that, from your description, part of what happened between you and S sounds like it was tied to grief around B's death. In other words, the space needed to grieve that loss may have complicated the dynamic you two had.
I'd also caution you against starting a romantic relationship with N until you resolve, or at least severely mellow, your feelings towards S. S is occupying a lot of space in your brain right now, and it's going to be hard not to compare N to him when that's happening, which isn't a great base to build a relationship from.
Something I'll ask you is: have you considered a third option in which you choose neither of them right now? What if instead you focused on the passions and ambitions you clearly have, and made a choice to not be with S or N romantically? That could be a forever choice, or it could be that you date one of them once you've had more time and space to untangle the emotions you feel around the situation.
There's a lot to unpack here. I'll start by mentioning that, from your description, part of what happened between you and S sounds like it was tied to grief around B's death. In other words, the space needed to grieve that loss may have complicated the dynamic you two had.
I'd also caution you against starting a romantic relationship with N until you resolve, or at least severely mellow, your feelings towards S. S is occupying a lot of space in your brain right now, and it's going to be hard not to compare N to him when that's happening, which isn't a great base to build a relationship from.
Something I'll ask you is: have you considered a third option in which you choose neither of them right now? What if instead you focused on the passions and ambitions you clearly have, and made a choice to not be with S or N romantically? That could be a forever choice, or it could be that you date one of them once you've had more time and space to untangle the emotions you feel around the situation.
And you to whom adversity has dealt the final blow/with smiling bastards lying to you everywhere you go/turn to and put out all your strength of arm and heart and brain/and like the Mary Ellen Carter rise again.
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Re: Feelings are complicated
Thank you so much, Sam.
It's such a relief to me to have discovered this website! I've mostly been discussing this with my friends and my mom; it's nice to have a resource wherein people give advice based upon general principles of relationships, as opposed to just their individual experiences and perspectives.
Reading your response made me realize that it's not necessarily that my mom is advising me to pursue a relationship with N; rather, she's glad and relieved that I have a close friend because I don't make friends easily, and she's worried about me.
It's difficult for me to remember to focus on my personal development first, which is of course both cause and effect of being in a bad state. I can't see the lens through which I see the world until I take my glasses off.
One factor that may be preventing me from focusing on improving myself is that for a long time, I was so angry at myself for still being upset over S that I would say, "Just get over it! Just don't think about him!" Then, when I would think of him, it would remind me of all my feelings of confusion, and I would get angry. The fact that I still liked him and couldn't eliminate him from my mind confirmed to me that I would always fail at this, I would just continue to be unhappy. I've come to associate the solution of not addressing "the problem" with loss, separation, disappointment.
But of course, moving on isn't failure. Thank you for your reassurance.
It's such a relief to me to have discovered this website! I've mostly been discussing this with my friends and my mom; it's nice to have a resource wherein people give advice based upon general principles of relationships, as opposed to just their individual experiences and perspectives.
Reading your response made me realize that it's not necessarily that my mom is advising me to pursue a relationship with N; rather, she's glad and relieved that I have a close friend because I don't make friends easily, and she's worried about me.
It's difficult for me to remember to focus on my personal development first, which is of course both cause and effect of being in a bad state. I can't see the lens through which I see the world until I take my glasses off.
One factor that may be preventing me from focusing on improving myself is that for a long time, I was so angry at myself for still being upset over S that I would say, "Just get over it! Just don't think about him!" Then, when I would think of him, it would remind me of all my feelings of confusion, and I would get angry. The fact that I still liked him and couldn't eliminate him from my mind confirmed to me that I would always fail at this, I would just continue to be unhappy. I've come to associate the solution of not addressing "the problem" with loss, separation, disappointment.
But of course, moving on isn't failure. Thank you for your reassurance.
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Re: Feelings are complicated
Hey Faust!
Sorry to hear you've been having all those self-critical thoughts! It can be really tough and tiring to go through that.
One thing which could be helpful would be to give yourself space. There is no rush to 'get over' a thing if it's still affecting you. If you broke your arm, you wouldn't expect yourself to heal your own-bones quicker than they were already healing. The same goes for emotional hurt
I think the other thing to mention here is that focusing on yourself, which Sam suggested, isn't just about personal development, as you put it, but also self care. Looking after yourself and enjoying your own passions is great because it is about tending to how you feel now. We don't hug someone to make them into better people, we hug them because we care and to bring comfort in the present. So self-care is like giving yourself a hug in that sense.
Sorry to hear you've been having all those self-critical thoughts! It can be really tough and tiring to go through that.
One thing which could be helpful would be to give yourself space. There is no rush to 'get over' a thing if it's still affecting you. If you broke your arm, you wouldn't expect yourself to heal your own-bones quicker than they were already healing. The same goes for emotional hurt
I think the other thing to mention here is that focusing on yourself, which Sam suggested, isn't just about personal development, as you put it, but also self care. Looking after yourself and enjoying your own passions is great because it is about tending to how you feel now. We don't hug someone to make them into better people, we hug them because we care and to bring comfort in the present. So self-care is like giving yourself a hug in that sense.
"In between two tall mountains there's a place they call lonesome.
Don't see why they call it lonesome.
I'm never lonesome when I go there." Connie Converse - Talkin' Like You
Don't see why they call it lonesome.
I'm never lonesome when I go there." Connie Converse - Talkin' Like You
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Re: Feelings are complicated
Thank you for your kind words, Jacob.
I told my mom everything last night. She pointed out to me that it's impossible for me to get over S in the sense that people often talk of "getting over" someone. He's one of my best friends; we work together—we share a music stand twice a week, playing the same part and matching each other's bowings and listening back to the rest of the violins so that they arrive at beginnings and endings at the same time as each other. He's my mentor as well as my friend. Just earlier that morning, my mom had called his mom to ask for advice about buying plane tickets for college auditions. So no, of course I can't stop caring about him or forget. I can emotionally heal, though.
Then there's just the issue of getting the rest of my life on track. Three more college app essays to write.
Thank you all. I've needed hugs.
I told my mom everything last night. She pointed out to me that it's impossible for me to get over S in the sense that people often talk of "getting over" someone. He's one of my best friends; we work together—we share a music stand twice a week, playing the same part and matching each other's bowings and listening back to the rest of the violins so that they arrive at beginnings and endings at the same time as each other. He's my mentor as well as my friend. Just earlier that morning, my mom had called his mom to ask for advice about buying plane tickets for college auditions. So no, of course I can't stop caring about him or forget. I can emotionally heal, though.
Then there's just the issue of getting the rest of my life on track. Three more college app essays to write.
Thank you all. I've needed hugs.
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Re: Feelings are complicated
By the by, if you'd just like to talk to someone who lived through hard loss of someone I loved when I was in high school, and who was also young, so it mostly came as a complete shock, feel free to ask. It's been a long time (decades) since then for me, but it's still pretty sharp in my heart and mind, because, as you know, it can have a really huge impact.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead
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Re: Feelings are complicated
Thanks Heather. Thank you for this website, what a wonderful resource.
I think having someone who understands is most important to me of all. I'm sorry for your loss; it's terrifying to have something that sharp in your mind for decades.
That's what I'm afraid of. Everything feels very, very sharp right now. Even if it's okay for me to like S, it's still hard to know that in six months we're parting ways forever. It makes caring about him seem so foolish and inadequate—no quantity or quality of time could be enough now. It's hard to think that I'll still care about him, and about B, years after both of them have left my life. I don't want to throw N off the bandwagon, especially since it's my last few months with him, but at the same time, I can't stand to be attached to him, to have this perfect boyfriend I can't possibly muster the affection to care about. Maybe I don't want a boyfriend. I want friends. I want to be able to talk music with S, and witness things happening just as they do.
It's so good to have people to talk to.
I think having someone who understands is most important to me of all. I'm sorry for your loss; it's terrifying to have something that sharp in your mind for decades.
That's what I'm afraid of. Everything feels very, very sharp right now. Even if it's okay for me to like S, it's still hard to know that in six months we're parting ways forever. It makes caring about him seem so foolish and inadequate—no quantity or quality of time could be enough now. It's hard to think that I'll still care about him, and about B, years after both of them have left my life. I don't want to throw N off the bandwagon, especially since it's my last few months with him, but at the same time, I can't stand to be attached to him, to have this perfect boyfriend I can't possibly muster the affection to care about. Maybe I don't want a boyfriend. I want friends. I want to be able to talk music with S, and witness things happening just as they do.
It's so good to have people to talk to.
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Re: Feelings are complicated
I think I told myself that I couldn't like S because it was too risky. Yes, it was risky. I upheld N as the example of someone I could like. That didn't mean that I had to leave my relationship with S and pursue one with N. That's not how I feel. No, I can't force myself to trust S more than I do. I can't "prove" that our relationship is so valuable and close that it justifies breaking up with N.
But some things don't have to be justified.
That was what I couldn't understand.
But some things don't have to be justified.
That was what I couldn't understand.
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Re: Feelings are complicated
I just broke up with N.
I called him and explained that I need to address my emotional instability and neediness first.
Of course we're still friends. In any music ensemble—any small group like that, any group so tight-knit as one where you create or work towards something very specific together—you're still friends.
I feel really alone and sad, because N has been such a positive aspect of my life. In many ways, I didn't want to end it.
But that's the reality—that I can't keep tricking people who genuinely are attracted to me and love me into thinking I love them back. It's not fair to him.
I don't know. Is it enough to be in a relationship because you're vulnerable and lonely, and your partner is so good for you?
I felt like I couldn't hide the fact that I'm not attracted to him, or that I'm a really volatile person.
He wanted me to improve myself while in a relationship with him. The thing is, to improve myself, I'd have to stop pretending. And then it would be obvious that I don't actually want a romantic relationship with him, but just have been in one because he's a good friend and I'm needy.
But really what I want is not to be so needy. I'd rather be strong. I'd rather be my own person.
Have I made a terrible mistake?
Because I do genuinely like him as a friend, and I like talking to him. It was good. And I'm losing so much.
I called him and explained that I need to address my emotional instability and neediness first.
Of course we're still friends. In any music ensemble—any small group like that, any group so tight-knit as one where you create or work towards something very specific together—you're still friends.
I feel really alone and sad, because N has been such a positive aspect of my life. In many ways, I didn't want to end it.
But that's the reality—that I can't keep tricking people who genuinely are attracted to me and love me into thinking I love them back. It's not fair to him.
I don't know. Is it enough to be in a relationship because you're vulnerable and lonely, and your partner is so good for you?
I felt like I couldn't hide the fact that I'm not attracted to him, or that I'm a really volatile person.
He wanted me to improve myself while in a relationship with him. The thing is, to improve myself, I'd have to stop pretending. And then it would be obvious that I don't actually want a romantic relationship with him, but just have been in one because he's a good friend and I'm needy.
But really what I want is not to be so needy. I'd rather be strong. I'd rather be my own person.
Have I made a terrible mistake?
Because I do genuinely like him as a friend, and I like talking to him. It was good. And I'm losing so much.
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Re: Feelings are complicated
Hi Faust. I'm sorry to hear you're having a rough time with this. Ending a romantic relationship is a really hard thing, no matter your exact feelings about it -- obviously you care greatly about N, so hurting him is painful for you too. However, that doesn't stop your needs from being what they are, and it sounds like you made the right choice for yourself. I think you're right that it isn't fair on the other person involved if you're only in a relationship for the comfort and company -- then you're not truly seeing that other person, and appreciating them. Relationships should be entered into because both people WANT to be in the relationship with THAT particular person. You made a hard choice but in the long run it sounds like it will be the best one for both of you.
The thing is, it's a lot easier to really improve yourself and focus on yourself when you're not IN a romantic relationship with anyone. And, as Jacob said, it's also a lot easier to take care of yourself. It seems clear to me that you still have a lot of healing to do around B's death, and that is something that can be a lot easier to do when you're not involved in a romantic relationship at all. Being single gives you the opportunity to take all the time you need to look inwards, to heal, and to take care of yourself.
Do you want to talk about where your feelings of "neediness" are coming from? Why do you think you're feeling the need to be in a relationship with someone you're not romantically attracted to? From the way you're talking about this, it sounds as if you're judging yourself harshly for having those feelings; I know what that's like, but at the same time, it's not productive if you want to move forward around this. So, if you feel you can, try to let go of any judgment around your feelings -- just recognise what they are, and that they are telling you something about what you need right now. When you work through the feelings of "needing" to be in a relationship, you may get some insight into what it is you REALLY need right now -- perhaps something that having a relationship would distract you from, or feel like it is filling a "void" that needs to be addressed. Does that make sense to you? Do you want to talk about any thoughts that's brought up for you?
The thing is, it's a lot easier to really improve yourself and focus on yourself when you're not IN a romantic relationship with anyone. And, as Jacob said, it's also a lot easier to take care of yourself. It seems clear to me that you still have a lot of healing to do around B's death, and that is something that can be a lot easier to do when you're not involved in a romantic relationship at all. Being single gives you the opportunity to take all the time you need to look inwards, to heal, and to take care of yourself.
Do you want to talk about where your feelings of "neediness" are coming from? Why do you think you're feeling the need to be in a relationship with someone you're not romantically attracted to? From the way you're talking about this, it sounds as if you're judging yourself harshly for having those feelings; I know what that's like, but at the same time, it's not productive if you want to move forward around this. So, if you feel you can, try to let go of any judgment around your feelings -- just recognise what they are, and that they are telling you something about what you need right now. When you work through the feelings of "needing" to be in a relationship, you may get some insight into what it is you REALLY need right now -- perhaps something that having a relationship would distract you from, or feel like it is filling a "void" that needs to be addressed. Does that make sense to you? Do you want to talk about any thoughts that's brought up for you?
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Re: Feelings are complicated
I agree with Onionpie: I get how hard it was, and your conflicted feelings, but I think you made the right choice for N, too, for both your sakes. One of the things I was going to come in with in my response to you this morning was to suggest we talk about you considering a breakup with them.
I want to say a few things about my own experience with similar loss, in the hopes you can get something from them. If you don't, that's okay, too, but it seems worth a shot.
The short version of my story is that the person in their early 20s I was dating -- who was my world at the time, really, so "dating" is not the best term -- when I was 15 and in terrible crisis in my life died very suddenly and unexpectedly, as well as very violently. They were very well known and revered in my circles, which made things extra complex, but I was truly devastated, in a ton of ways.
One of the ways is that I just don't think you expect to lose your peers when you're young. People losing friends or partners to death just seems like something that happens to people way older, even if we when we know the reality that death certainly happens to young people, too. Heck, even when we have experienced that before, in my own experience, it still is so unreal and unexpected when it happens.
It also makes the prospect of any more loss seem unbearable, so things like breakups that probably should happen for a ton of reasons may be something a person is reluctant to do. In a lot of ways, we can cling to pretty much anyone and everything close to us because we're going through loss, and probably one we really weren't yet equipped to deal with at all.
People feeling a strong need for others is really just a thing that tends to happen with loss, on top of being something that's so huge when we're young in the first place. That's not about being "needy" in the crummy way people tend to use that word. That's about having an earnest and valid need for comfort, for company, for communion. For people. To not be alone at a time of life when being alone is really scary, rather than welcomed. There's nothing wrong with any of that: that's just being human.
My best suggestion, though, both based on my personal experience (and boy, did I ever screw this up) and what I know with relationships as my job, is that this isn't usually the best time to start anything new, or make any big change to an existing relationship. So, new dating relationships, or seeking to change a friendship into something romantic probably isn't the best idea right now. Instead, sticking to who we have that IS a relationship that's good for us, both of us, is the way to go. It's not like you can't later do these things, it's just that right now, while everything is feeling like it is, is probably bad timing.
Of course, there's the possibility it isn't: sometimes we can very deeply connect at times like these. It's just that it is often so fraught with the hard stuff, and can set precedents in a relationship that later on, aren't so great. Regardless, this stuff is your choice.
I want to just add, if it's helpful, that decades after that loss, by all means, there are times where it hurts: during the season it happened, when I'm reminded of other similar kinds of death, when I just think it would have been amazing, no matter what became of us, to see or know this person I loved and who they turned into through their lives. But mostly, at this point, it's the good things I get from it. That person basically helped me save my life in a very real way, so I feel gratitude. I also know I am stronger and probably also softer than I might have been without that person and even the loss of them, so there's that.
And just in case this is a story that serves you in any way: around fifteen years ago, I was on a trip with a friend. One of the hardest parts of the loss of that person is that there was no goodbye. For years, truly, after they did I think I made at least one beg a day to the powers that be to find a way to give me that. Didn't happen. But on that trip, I had a dream, and in it, there was this whole reunion and what wasn't a literal goodbye, but what, when I woke up, and with everything in the dream, actually felt like a goodbye was said. And I felt the most amazing relief and resolution. After that, it really felt different, and I was able to, again, feel more of the good stuff than the bad.
I want to say a few things about my own experience with similar loss, in the hopes you can get something from them. If you don't, that's okay, too, but it seems worth a shot.
The short version of my story is that the person in their early 20s I was dating -- who was my world at the time, really, so "dating" is not the best term -- when I was 15 and in terrible crisis in my life died very suddenly and unexpectedly, as well as very violently. They were very well known and revered in my circles, which made things extra complex, but I was truly devastated, in a ton of ways.
One of the ways is that I just don't think you expect to lose your peers when you're young. People losing friends or partners to death just seems like something that happens to people way older, even if we when we know the reality that death certainly happens to young people, too. Heck, even when we have experienced that before, in my own experience, it still is so unreal and unexpected when it happens.
It also makes the prospect of any more loss seem unbearable, so things like breakups that probably should happen for a ton of reasons may be something a person is reluctant to do. In a lot of ways, we can cling to pretty much anyone and everything close to us because we're going through loss, and probably one we really weren't yet equipped to deal with at all.
People feeling a strong need for others is really just a thing that tends to happen with loss, on top of being something that's so huge when we're young in the first place. That's not about being "needy" in the crummy way people tend to use that word. That's about having an earnest and valid need for comfort, for company, for communion. For people. To not be alone at a time of life when being alone is really scary, rather than welcomed. There's nothing wrong with any of that: that's just being human.
My best suggestion, though, both based on my personal experience (and boy, did I ever screw this up) and what I know with relationships as my job, is that this isn't usually the best time to start anything new, or make any big change to an existing relationship. So, new dating relationships, or seeking to change a friendship into something romantic probably isn't the best idea right now. Instead, sticking to who we have that IS a relationship that's good for us, both of us, is the way to go. It's not like you can't later do these things, it's just that right now, while everything is feeling like it is, is probably bad timing.
Of course, there's the possibility it isn't: sometimes we can very deeply connect at times like these. It's just that it is often so fraught with the hard stuff, and can set precedents in a relationship that later on, aren't so great. Regardless, this stuff is your choice.
I want to just add, if it's helpful, that decades after that loss, by all means, there are times where it hurts: during the season it happened, when I'm reminded of other similar kinds of death, when I just think it would have been amazing, no matter what became of us, to see or know this person I loved and who they turned into through their lives. But mostly, at this point, it's the good things I get from it. That person basically helped me save my life in a very real way, so I feel gratitude. I also know I am stronger and probably also softer than I might have been without that person and even the loss of them, so there's that.
And just in case this is a story that serves you in any way: around fifteen years ago, I was on a trip with a friend. One of the hardest parts of the loss of that person is that there was no goodbye. For years, truly, after they did I think I made at least one beg a day to the powers that be to find a way to give me that. Didn't happen. But on that trip, I had a dream, and in it, there was this whole reunion and what wasn't a literal goodbye, but what, when I woke up, and with everything in the dream, actually felt like a goodbye was said. And I felt the most amazing relief and resolution. After that, it really felt different, and I was able to, again, feel more of the good stuff than the bad.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead
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Re: Feelings are complicated
(Btw, I was a music student in my teens, serious about it, like you sound, so I also get how making music together can make bonds bigger and deeper. Heck, we know that's one of the things that pings oxytocin release, so there is literally neurology happening to create deeper connection and bonding.)
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead
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Re: Feelings are complicated
Thank you all so much. I'm especially glad to have your support Heather—although I know that your understanding comes from a place of great pain. I'm sorry for your loss.
Music is a really, really strong form of bonding... Actually, N and I have this joke. Maybe you've heard someone, a journalist or a music teacher, say that a string quartet is like a four-person marriage, or that playing chamber music with someone is one of the most intimate things you can do. One time, after a conductor described chamber music as "G-rated polygamy (occasionally PG-13 for language)", I told N, "It's not G-rated at all. It's R-rated for mature themes, and it's one of the riskiest things you can do."
N hasn't been dealing with it well, which is understandable. First of all, we've been texting for hours every day since March 2015—only a few months after the incident with S. So N texted me literally all day yesterday, saying "I know you really do love me" and "But you're never fully going to get over S, we all have that person." I finally was able to see it from his perspective this morning: Yes, my relationship with N is real, and it is good, and I love him, and there's virtually nothing wrong with it. The thing that N doesn't understand is that I never even had time, never even let myself resolve things with S, and that's why I'm still upset about what happened. Even though N is wonderful, a really good partner, I don't want a partner right now. Even though yes, I really do love him, sometimes romantic love isn't what we need. Regardless of how good my partner is, I want to be myself first. I want to be able to amend things with S. I want to get on my feet first. I want to go to college. Someday, I'll actually fall in love out of love, not need. I don't know with whom, and I don't care to know. All I know now is that I've left S out in the cold for thirteen months, and it's time for me to make up with one of my other best friends.
Music is a really, really strong form of bonding... Actually, N and I have this joke. Maybe you've heard someone, a journalist or a music teacher, say that a string quartet is like a four-person marriage, or that playing chamber music with someone is one of the most intimate things you can do. One time, after a conductor described chamber music as "G-rated polygamy (occasionally PG-13 for language)", I told N, "It's not G-rated at all. It's R-rated for mature themes, and it's one of the riskiest things you can do."
N hasn't been dealing with it well, which is understandable. First of all, we've been texting for hours every day since March 2015—only a few months after the incident with S. So N texted me literally all day yesterday, saying "I know you really do love me" and "But you're never fully going to get over S, we all have that person." I finally was able to see it from his perspective this morning: Yes, my relationship with N is real, and it is good, and I love him, and there's virtually nothing wrong with it. The thing that N doesn't understand is that I never even had time, never even let myself resolve things with S, and that's why I'm still upset about what happened. Even though N is wonderful, a really good partner, I don't want a partner right now. Even though yes, I really do love him, sometimes romantic love isn't what we need. Regardless of how good my partner is, I want to be myself first. I want to be able to amend things with S. I want to get on my feet first. I want to go to college. Someday, I'll actually fall in love out of love, not need. I don't know with whom, and I don't care to know. All I know now is that I've left S out in the cold for thirteen months, and it's time for me to make up with one of my other best friends.
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Re: Feelings are complicated
It's just been hard for me to realize because it's obvious that N is a better partner for me than S—I idolize S too much to feel completely comfortable addressing problems with him, and it's easy with N. However, that doesn't mean that N is right for me in this situation, or that I should throw S off the bandwagon. Really what I need to do is recognize that while I didn't feel comfortable trusting S in a romantic relationship in Fall 2015, I can feel comfortable and would feel more comfortable now if I trusted him as a friend in December 2016. It's not that he's inherently untrustworthy, or that N is inherently good for me—it's all a matter of context and time. It's possible that were I in a different stage of my life, I would feel very comfortable trusting S; the key here is how strong I feel and what I need emotionally. Conversely, N is not inherently trustworthy: even the best-intentioned, most reliable person can have needs that conflict with mine just given the situation. There's no guarantee that he would be a better partner for me than S just on the fact that I feel more casual with him since he's not a respected leader in my community. Sometimes, context is almost everything.
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Re: Feelings are complicated
I think it might help if you don't see it as a choice?
In other words, what if neither of these people are your partner right now, or someone you are romantic with?
In other words, what if neither of these people are your partner right now, or someone you are romantic with?
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead
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Re: Feelings are complicated
I love this, btw:
One time, after a conductor described chamber music as "G-rated polygamy (occasionally PG-13 for language)", I told N, "It's not G-rated at all. It's R-rated for mature themes, and it's one of the riskiest things you can do."
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead
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Re: Feelings are complicated
I'm glad you love it. I'm so glad to have found someone who understands what it's like, what music is, and yet is not within my community and is also an expert on these sorts of relationships and thus is not judgmental. It's the least I can do to pay you back.
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Re: Feelings are complicated
You know, even in the best if times and circumstances, as you say, feelings are complicated, and so, often, are our interpersonal relationships. And the more complex as people everyone in them or around them is, the more complex they can tend to be. So, no judgment here! This is just about being human, in my experience, and about how intense and complex life and living it together as humans can be sometimes.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead
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Re: Feelings are complicated
Thanks Heather. I guess that is the thing—it's just tough to justify it to N, and to my mom right now. But no, I don't really have a choice.Heather wrote:I think it might help if you don't see it as a choice?
In other words, what if neither of these people are your partner right now, or someone you are romantic with?
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Re: Feelings are complicated
We really shouldn't ever have to justify why we are choosing to end a relationship to anyone.
N is obviously going to have a range of feelings about this, but shouldn't be asking you to justify it. If they are, what I'd suggest is asking for some time and space without contact so they can process all of this and grieve as they need to, and then start moving forward.
With your Mom, how able do you feel to ask her not to ask you to justify your choice here? Again, no one should be: you made it because it was what you felt best about (and again, IMO, I do think you made the best choice here), and it's already done. So, all there really is for anyone else to do about it is to accept it.
N is obviously going to have a range of feelings about this, but shouldn't be asking you to justify it. If they are, what I'd suggest is asking for some time and space without contact so they can process all of this and grieve as they need to, and then start moving forward.
With your Mom, how able do you feel to ask her not to ask you to justify your choice here? Again, no one should be: you made it because it was what you felt best about (and again, IMO, I do think you made the best choice here), and it's already done. So, all there really is for anyone else to do about it is to accept it.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead
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Re: Feelings are complicated
Is it inappropriate to use this forum as a place to vent? Probably.
I have such an unfortunate complex with feeling like I'm not good enough for S, even though I know that's not the case. First of all, in terms of sheer authority, no student in our community has as much social status as he does, and so by that definition, none of us are good enough for him! And yet it's not as if he has no friends! I know it's not true; he does value me, and so do many others. It's just strangely easy to be afraid.
(And it's easy to be afraid about being afraid. This never does any good, though. It just is infinitely recursive fear, a horror of horror vacui.)
I have a lot of healing to do, in a lot of different places... I always avoid things because I don't want them to be not good enough...
In reality, there's so little I can do. All the worrying in the world may make me comfortable temporarily, but in the long run it just makes me unhappy.
I have a postcard I've been waiting to send for a while. I think I'm going to send it to S over Winter Break. If I get brave enough.
I have such an unfortunate complex with feeling like I'm not good enough for S, even though I know that's not the case. First of all, in terms of sheer authority, no student in our community has as much social status as he does, and so by that definition, none of us are good enough for him! And yet it's not as if he has no friends! I know it's not true; he does value me, and so do many others. It's just strangely easy to be afraid.
(And it's easy to be afraid about being afraid. This never does any good, though. It just is infinitely recursive fear, a horror of horror vacui.)
I have a lot of healing to do, in a lot of different places... I always avoid things because I don't want them to be not good enough...
In reality, there's so little I can do. All the worrying in the world may make me comfortable temporarily, but in the long run it just makes me unhappy.
I have a postcard I've been waiting to send for a while. I think I'm going to send it to S over Winter Break. If I get brave enough.
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Re: Feelings are complicated
Nope. Vent away. That is absolutely one thing we are here for. Young people have a lot to vent about, after all, and often too few safe places to do it.
I think it might help to question the whole framework of social status. Especially since it's often not based in the best things AND hierarchy in interpersonal relationships is pretty much always a problem.
I think -- and I can hear it's obviously a challenge, but sometimes we just have to stick with the challenging bits of life and chop away at them over time as best we can -- it's more sound to think about the fact that just like you want a friend, and your friend S. is valuable to you, they'd not likely be your friend if the feeling wasn't mutual. Plus, there's no deserving or not deserving company, care and companionship: we all deserve that just by existing.
We're about to head into a ten day break for winter in our direct services, including the boards. I'm sorry to leave our conversation hanging like that, and I'd be happy to pick it up again in 2017. I hope the time we're away is a good one for you.
I think it might help to question the whole framework of social status. Especially since it's often not based in the best things AND hierarchy in interpersonal relationships is pretty much always a problem.
I think -- and I can hear it's obviously a challenge, but sometimes we just have to stick with the challenging bits of life and chop away at them over time as best we can -- it's more sound to think about the fact that just like you want a friend, and your friend S. is valuable to you, they'd not likely be your friend if the feeling wasn't mutual. Plus, there's no deserving or not deserving company, care and companionship: we all deserve that just by existing.
We're about to head into a ten day break for winter in our direct services, including the boards. I'm sorry to leave our conversation hanging like that, and I'd be happy to pick it up again in 2017. I hope the time we're away is a good one for you.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead
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Re: Feelings are complicated
Hi Heather, thanks for providing this safe space as usual.
I guess one of the really complicated things is that N provides me more emotional support than I could ever want, while I have to be honest about S: He isn't a good match for me. If I want to spend time with him, I have to take most of the initiative, which I'm not confident enough to do. He's very shy and emotionally reticent—many people think he's cold, or at least repressive. So as a partner, he's not the right choice. Even if N were completely out of the picture, it still would be weird with S... well, is that entirely true? I think it may have been easier to resolve things with S and regain my confidence/the old comfort of our friendship, because I wouldn't be worrying about what's "right" and what's not. I wouldn't have to worry about making N jealous; in fact, if I didn't have N, I would be a lot more eager to go back to S.
When I say I broke up with N. N has been texting me every day anyway. We've talked it out, and come to agreement.
I know that my choice now is no one and that I'm going to focus on school and on myself, but it still comes up. Well, today it came up in a particularly odd way. When this happened, I literally screamed out loud.
N told me straight out that he's attracted to S.
This is something I've actually known for years; N would make little quips to S about fairly private things, and generally act flirty. This is weird because S's family would hardly let him date any girl, much less be okay with him being queer. His family is religious, but that's the least reason they wouldn't accept it. S has dark skin and already faces a lot of social stigma; most of all, he's supposed to be the family hero, this prodigy and brilliant intellect and the perfect most obedient child. There's no way in hell N could ever consider a romantic relationship with S.
It's just weird and weirder and I have no idea how to feel or what to do.
N tells me to calm down. It seems like the choice should be obvious. If S isn't good, stop pining after him.
I just need to focus on other things and forget.
I guess the question that keeps coming back is "How can I have a comfortable friendship with S?" How can I minimize the risk and pain? How do I have things not be awkward? I know that the answer again is just to not worry. Overthinking is what kills my relationship with S to start with. If it's worth it, my feelings will naturally lead me to be confident and not awkward, to reconnect with him. I just need to stop worrying. And maybe turn off my phone so N doesn't text me for a while.
I guess one of the really complicated things is that N provides me more emotional support than I could ever want, while I have to be honest about S: He isn't a good match for me. If I want to spend time with him, I have to take most of the initiative, which I'm not confident enough to do. He's very shy and emotionally reticent—many people think he's cold, or at least repressive. So as a partner, he's not the right choice. Even if N were completely out of the picture, it still would be weird with S... well, is that entirely true? I think it may have been easier to resolve things with S and regain my confidence/the old comfort of our friendship, because I wouldn't be worrying about what's "right" and what's not. I wouldn't have to worry about making N jealous; in fact, if I didn't have N, I would be a lot more eager to go back to S.
When I say I broke up with N. N has been texting me every day anyway. We've talked it out, and come to agreement.
I know that my choice now is no one and that I'm going to focus on school and on myself, but it still comes up. Well, today it came up in a particularly odd way. When this happened, I literally screamed out loud.
N told me straight out that he's attracted to S.
This is something I've actually known for years; N would make little quips to S about fairly private things, and generally act flirty. This is weird because S's family would hardly let him date any girl, much less be okay with him being queer. His family is religious, but that's the least reason they wouldn't accept it. S has dark skin and already faces a lot of social stigma; most of all, he's supposed to be the family hero, this prodigy and brilliant intellect and the perfect most obedient child. There's no way in hell N could ever consider a romantic relationship with S.
It's just weird and weirder and I have no idea how to feel or what to do.
N tells me to calm down. It seems like the choice should be obvious. If S isn't good, stop pining after him.
I just need to focus on other things and forget.
I guess the question that keeps coming back is "How can I have a comfortable friendship with S?" How can I minimize the risk and pain? How do I have things not be awkward? I know that the answer again is just to not worry. Overthinking is what kills my relationship with S to start with. If it's worth it, my feelings will naturally lead me to be confident and not awkward, to reconnect with him. I just need to stop worrying. And maybe turn off my phone so N doesn't text me for a while.
Last edited by pinocchio on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- not a newbie
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:01 pm
- Age: 25
- Awesomeness Quotient: Redemption
- Primary language: English
- Pronouns: she/her
- Sexual identity: relatively hetero
- Location: United States
Re: Feelings are complicated
It's weird because I can trust my feelings (know that it's okay to like S, I don't have to force myself to feel differently) but at the same time I can't (it would be foolish for me to pretend that S is as good of a partner as N). Trust your feelings, don't trust your feelings. In situations like this, people always warn you not to mistake attraction, inclination, and especially the tugging allure of loss—of insecurity, of risk, of not having someone easily—for their being good for you. And I'm so very inclined to do that.
Ah, what am I saying? It's not as if I'll restart a romantic relationship with S; there's very little possibility that it could happen. I'm just looking to be friends, which I can be. If I just calm down a bit. But I feel like my feelings are running me over.
FAUST! Get away from N. He's a wonderful friend, but you need to let your feelings run amok a little more. You need to accept that you like S. You need to talk with S, about all the things you used to talk about: How beautiful it is that everyone, in the end, is alone, how no one experiences the same thing as another person and yet we can compare the funny little things we notice, things like looking in the mirror and realizing that you're a person, like a character in a book, and you'll die someday. You need freedom. You need closure.
Ah, what am I saying? It's not as if I'll restart a romantic relationship with S; there's very little possibility that it could happen. I'm just looking to be friends, which I can be. If I just calm down a bit. But I feel like my feelings are running me over.
FAUST! Get away from N. He's a wonderful friend, but you need to let your feelings run amok a little more. You need to accept that you like S. You need to talk with S, about all the things you used to talk about: How beautiful it is that everyone, in the end, is alone, how no one experiences the same thing as another person and yet we can compare the funny little things we notice, things like looking in the mirror and realizing that you're a person, like a character in a book, and you'll die someday. You need freedom. You need closure.
-
- not a newbie
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:01 pm
- Age: 25
- Awesomeness Quotient: Redemption
- Primary language: English
- Pronouns: she/her
- Sexual identity: relatively hetero
- Location: United States
Re: Feelings are complicated
Oh also then there's this girl F, who's a very good cellist and most of all, one of the most physically beautiful people I know. She's S's new friend since I disappeared. I'm trying not to be jealous. I'm trying not to write off myself and my entire friendship with S just because there's this new girl who's prettier than a rose and nice and perfect for him and everything I'm not.
It's not good for me to think about her. Not in that sense, at least.
Wow. I REALLY shouldn't be texting N. It reminds me of too much.
Also I really wish N hadn't told me that he likes S. Even though I've known it for years. It just still makes me uncomfortable, in a jittery, electric way.
It's not good for me to think about her. Not in that sense, at least.
Wow. I REALLY shouldn't be texting N. It reminds me of too much.
Also I really wish N hadn't told me that he likes S. Even though I've known it for years. It just still makes me uncomfortable, in a jittery, electric way.
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