Intersex?

[JackHamilton]

Ok so I was born with normal female genitalia,but when I got much older I was told I have both female (XX) and male (XY) chromosomes.This is a really rare mosaicism,meaning in some of my body cells I have XX chromosomes and in another cells XY chromosomes.Do I count as intersex or transgender or both? I think both?
I believe that my XY chromosomes are much more prime/leading then XX because of 2 reasons:

a) I identify as male

b) I have partial colorblindness,and for a person with XX chromosomes to inherit colorblindness (partial or complete) ,that person's father must be colorblind too.And my father isn't colorblind.But even though he isn't colorblind,it's all kinda weird because I have both male and female chromosomes and for a person with XY chromosomes to inherit colorblindness (partial or full) that person needs to have a mother who is colorblind too or a mother who is a carrier of colorblind gene on her X chromosome.My mother is a carrier.So I inherited colorblindness on a male way.I am positive that that means that my XY chromosomes are prime,especially since I feel male.

Currently,I am on testosterone injections and I have enlarged clitoris and no period.Also,I've been told I have a small uterus,but not small enough to be a medical problem.Also,I think I have Adam's apple,the size of it is bigger then what girls have.

Small uterus and Adam's apple I think are caused by Y chromosome in some cells.Do I count as intersex?

Also,experts say that for a person with my mosaicism,has a 99% chance that the person started life as a twin,but very early in development those 2 (not yet developed) babies became one,meaning that there was one girl and one boy zygote and it means that either a) boy with XY chromosomes received some XX chromosomes from a female zygote or b) a girl with XX chromosomes received XY from a male zygote (it must be twins of the opposite sex,experts say).So I believe I was supposed to have a twin sister and was supposed to develop as male,but there is also a possibility that I was supposed to start life as a girl but that my brother gave me XY chromosomes and that's why I feel male.

[Sam W]

Hi Jack,

The chromosomes you describe would generally fall under the intersex umbrella (can you give me a sense of how your healthcare provider determined what chromosomes you have?). How are you feeling about incorporating that identity along with your being trans? Do those two elements feel compatible to you, or are you worried that one might negate the other?

[JackHamilton]

They draw blood from me and did a test that is in my language called kariogram.

I am not sure if they are compatible,maybe.

But what's bothering me is that some transguys who don't have Y chromosome look much manlier then me.I guess this is because I don't work out.But I will,in future.I also,can't grow a proper beard,it just looks patchy,so I shave.

I'd like to just have XY. Sometimes the fact that I also have XX is frustrating me.

Ahh you guys probably think I am a person who can't stop complaining.Well,it all starts with my dad and grandparents I live with. They think that someone born without a penis can't be a man.

[Sam W]

Would it help to brainstorm some things you could do that would help you look "manlier," or at least the type of masculine that feels right to you? It may help to know that among guys (both cis and trans) there's a huge amount of variation in terms of looks, and you're not somehow less of a man. But, it sounds like presenting and being read as very classically masculine is important to you and helps you feel better, so approaching these feelings from that angle might be a good place to start.

With figuring out how being intersex may interact with being trans is there something we could do, be that helping you find resources or just giving you space to talk, that would be helpful?

I'm sorry you're currently living with people who are so unsupportive. Do they have a habit of saying transphobic things to you, or do they seem like they're trying to ignore the fact that you're trans?

[JackHamilton]

yeah,I'd like you to find me some resources about intersex people,especially those that were raised in the wrong gender.


For me having Y chromosome makes me feel somewhat manlier then other transguys,which is a wrong opinion.Y chromosome doesn't make you more of a man.But why do I then feel like I am somehow closer to being a real man then other transguys who are XX?
Tbh,when I see some transguy looking more masculine then me,I get really pissed.I'm like hello I am more man here,I deserve to look more masculine.I never said such thing to any trans person,but that's what I'm thinking.But,like,I tell myself that's wrong,we are all men as much as cis men.But I just get this severe anger.This injustice,me having to have a wrong body,I don't want boobs,I want a penis,it's unfair.I most likely started my life as any other cis guy,it's probably that my twin sister gave me XX and genes that come with it,such as genes for female body.I was probably supposed to be born like any other cis guy.Why do I have to be compared to trans guys instead of cis guys? I know that we're all men but god,all because of that stupid twin.

My dad and grandparents used to tell me I'm a freak....now they are just ignoring me being a guy,they use female pronounces and my birth name.No matter how many times I tell them to use my male name and pronounces they just ignore it.I feel like punching them.I feel a lot of anger,I might explode.But I'm scared of going to a mental hospital (been 6 times) again because it's soooo boring and patients can be rude and aggressive and nurses are bad,and there is no internet etc

[Sam W]

Okay! Here are some resources to give you starting places for other people's accounts. You may have to click around and read different things to find exactly what you're looking for: http://www.intersexinitiative.org/links.html , https://gendercentre.org.au/resources/s ... s/intersex

Feeling angry about being in a body that doesn't fit is totally understandable, and you're certainly not alone in being frustrated about being compared to trans men whether than all men. And given how obsessed a lot of society is with chromosomal gender, it makes sense that having that Y chromosome would feel really significant. It's okay to have those rough feelings, as long as they're not influencing how you treat other people (which it doesn't sound like they are). As much as you can, try not to focus on the "what if" of how things would have been if you'd ended up with a different collection of chromosomes, since that kind of thinking is likely to make you frustrated without giving you any concrete things you can do to address those feelings.

It's understandable that you'd feel angry at your dad and grandparents given how unsupportive they are and that anger would build up in your system. I agree that punching them isn't a good plan, because it's unlikely to result in positive changes for you. But, it doesn't sound like this living situation is sustainable long-term. Have you laid out any plans for getting out of the house sooner rather than later?

[JackHamilton]

Thanks! I'll look 'em up!

Well I can't live by myself,cause I can't cook,mum needs to wake me up in the morning for pills and I can't work.There is the possibility of me going to live in an apartment with few other mentally ill people (I think that the organization that is making this possible is called Susret),but I kinda don't want to.I like food at home,I like having my own room, my privacy and besides how would I get to my GP? Every now and then I need to call my GP to send my prescriptions to pharmacy so that mum can pick up my pills (cause I can't drive) and every 3 weeks I need the nurse to give me a testosterone shot.And,medical referals,medical records,the doctor giving me dates to see my neurologist,my psychiatrist,my endochrinologist,my ophthalmologist and my surgeon...Finding another doctor would be very stressful for me,and I don't have an ability to adjust to new situations very well.I also don't want that my future partner knows I'm mentally ill.

[Sam W]

You're welcome!

I totally get the desire to stay in the place that's familiar, especially when you have a lot of complex things that need to be taken care of or managed. Add those needs on top of not adjusting well to change and you can definitely find yourself feeling like "no change" is the best choice. But, given the how you've described your family here and in other posts, it sounds like the space is in many ways unsafe for you (particularly in how you dad has made threats to throw you out at least once). So, while it may be a really stressful idea to consider, you may want to dig into those other options a bit more. There may be resources in place to help you manage things like healthcare access while living on your own (or with people who are not your family), and if you'd like we could talk about how to bring that up with your therapist (that may not be their area of expertise, but odds are they'll have a better sense of local resources and how to navigate them than we would).

With a future partner, what concerns you about them knowing you're mentally ill?

[JackHamilton]

Also,I looked up your resources,but,as expected,there are many sex chromosome abnormalities mentioned,but not mine.Although before I even contacted you,I found a case of a little girl called Aubrey,who has both XX and XY,like me, and is being raised by one parent as female and by another as male (her parents are divorced).Also I found this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19344081
("A healthy, female chimera with 46,XX/46,XY karyotype.") This person was born with completely female genitalia,just like me.Then:

https://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-347 ... 1/abstract
(Intersex boy with XX/XY)

Also:
https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article ... 037/696615
(Another XX/XY child born with completely female genitalia)

More:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6575956
(phenotypically normal man)

One more case:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6623025
(a man with misdiagnosis of Klinefelter's syndrome,but developed as a normal male)

Last one:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1050410/
(intersex girl)

[Jacob]

Hi Jack!

So, I think these different accounts are helpful in some ways. Like, absolutely, to see written down in scientific papers that different people with different chromosomal and physical markers of what is considered 'biological sex' do exist and have always existed can be really validating.

I would be careful about the wording in some of these papers though, when they speak about 'normal' and whatnot especially given the age of some of the papers.

I wonder how much this idea that you are 'abnormal' or rare is affecting you?

That can make it really difficult to tackle some of the things you are facing.

As Sam says, there are steps you can take to move towards more independence, even if you aren't feeling completely ready for that.

I'm hearing that you probably agree that moving out could be really good for you, but that the practicalities and stress are things that are getting in the way?

[JackHamilton]

yes,practicalities and stress,the way you put it,exactly.
Also,I'm not a very social person and the idea of living with couple of strangers kinda scares me.

[Jacob]

yes,practicalities and stress,the way you put it,exactly.
Also,I'm not a very social person and the idea of living with couple of strangers kinda scares me.

I'm thinking that if we talk more about those practicalities and find ways to put things in place that it can become more of a manageable idea.

Moving out seems like something that needs to happen, but 'where to' involves lots of unknowns. And that is scary. As is the prospect of the new people you might meet in the future, who as of now are strangers.

Also, reading your your other recent posts, I wonder if we could do better to focus on this question of getting out of your family home?

I am hearing that home is really bad, and I'm sure is a major contributor to your experience of mental illness. Which is such that you have been hospitalised more than once, but then returned to your family home which is clearly very abusive.

The steps out of that may be unclear, and scary but they can become more clear.

You also mentioned guilt over your past actions/behaviours... but this isn't really our area. I do have faith that when you get yourself safe, you will be able to pursue more therapeutic support which can include support in making amends where necessary and making sense of however you behaved in the wake of your abuse.

Suicidal ideation, also is something that is far far outside of our remit. Either A. you are seriously at risk, in which case calling emergency services and suicide hotlines are the correct course of action, or B. you are not. If it's B. (as you have indicated), then musing on suicide in front of us, puts us under a lot of pressure which make our jobs harder, it also might be a cue for those of us who have our own traumatic histories around that topic, which is why this isn't a suicide hotline.

I hope that makes sense!

The most pressing thing to me seems to be your home situation. If we veer off and find ourselves just repeating the many various worries you are dealing with, we may also just be distracting ourselves from actually resolving any of them.

So how about it?

Do you think we could talk more about what your housing options could be and how we can make it a priority?

[JackHamilton]

Yes,I get it,but after I have mastectomy,couple of months after,when I rehabilitate,I plan on starting dating.And If I brought a guy over,he'd knew I live in a housing for mentally ill.Which guy would wanna be with me if he knew I was "one of the crazy ones"?

But,I did once mention to my dad about this housing for the mentally ill,where in one apartment lives between 2 and 4 people with some mental illness,and dad asked me would I like to live there.Then,I said no.It's a big change.I am used to my room.And my toys.And my kitchen.

Also,who'd help grandma with much work she does,if I wasn't around?

And I'd have to move all of my medical documents from my room to a new place and what if someone touches it and it gets lost? What if someone there goes through my stuff? What if someone is aggressive or bothers me or tries to steal my things? I've been in hospital 6 times,and that's exactly what I went through with some other patients.I'd hate to live somewhere where it would feel like a mental hospital again.That would mentally break me.

Also,I'd probably live far from my relatives,which is also a problem.I like seeing my relatives.

And what if I had to share a room with someone else? That is not something I would agree on,definitely not.I need my privacy.And where would I have sex with my boyfriend if I don't have my room?

[JackHamilton]

Besides right now,only dad and grandparents misgender me and call me by my birth name,my mum doesn't

[Sam W]

Three people misgendering you constantly is still a big deal, and given the other stuff you're dealing with that lack of support is likely exacerbating some of those other big, difficult emotions. Too, it's not just the misgendering that's concerning; it's the fact that there's been several instances where a parent has threatened to make you go without needed resources. That kind of situation is not sustainable or safe in the long-term, and at a certain point the most responsible recommendation on our end is to suggest you find ways to get out of it.

Now, that doesn't mean that the idea of moving out isn't a scary prospect, or won't involve a lot of difficult changes. In the above post, you mention a lot of what Jacob referred to as practicalities. Those are the kinds of things that, while they may present some challenges, can be dealt with given the proper supports and resources, which is what we're suggesting we find ways to connect you to. Does that all make sense?

As an aside, you've mentioned a few times being afraid of a partner leaving you when they learn about your mental illness. If it helps to know, many, many folks with mental illnesses have loving partners in their lives who know about the illness. If a partner were to leave when they found out you had a mental illness, then that simply means they weren't a good partner for you, because they weren't in a place where they could accept that part of you. So, if one of your worries is that living in shared housing with other mentally ill folks means you won't be able to have romantic or sexual partners, the good news is that it's likely to be far less of a barrier to that than you're thinking it might be.

FYI, I'm leaving your other posts for right now since, as Jacob mentioned, if we veer off in too many directions in talking with you, we may unintentionally distract from dealing with the issues that are the most pressing.

[JackHamilton]

In the moment I don't plan to move.
Besides my family isn't dysfunctional anymore.My dad has COMPLETELY changed.He is now VERY good,besides misgendering and calling me wrong name.He stopped calling me fat and stopped yelling at me and he NEVER and I mean never says to me to not eat his food,that was just once.Mum is great too.My dad (and mum) even said that if insurance doesn't cover my mastectomy that they are going to pay for it and I will then pay them off every month with 600kn (about 95$ if I'm correct) that I receive as my benefits ,until I pay them off all the money they will spend on my surgery (if insurance doesn't cover it,although it probably will.)
I don't feel unsafe.
BUT, if I make a decision one day to move out to housing with mental patients,I will contact you for your advices and support.
Also,just wanted to say that this forum made my mental health SO MUCH BETTER.Like seriously,you guys have been SO MUCH helpful.Thanks.
I hope that If I need some more support about something that I can post it somewhere here still,because idk because you said you won't answer my posts anywhere else,so should I post here or not at all?

[Jacob]

Hi Jack,

You are welcome back whenever you feel ready. And yep coming back to this thread to talk about how to actually change your situation would still be preferable, even then.

To be clear, I suggested we stick to this thread because in the long run, making progress is about taking steps which can be difficult but inevitably are for the best. Whereas a scattered attempt to do everything at once is overwhelming for everyone.

I also think practical change is an important basis for making progress in mental health. So it also feels like best way to affect other things.

That's not to say you have to move out immediately but it sounds like something which will be on the cards eventually, in more ways than the one example you have given.

I would be happy to talk more about that, but I understand if you don't want to just yet though.

I totally respect you going at your own pace.