Guilt, fear & shame

[Hollytiger]

Hello! First off, I want to say what a great resource this site is. And thank you to the staff and everyone who contributes. It has helped me feel so much less alone and I’ve learned a lot.

I’ve read and re-read (and re-re-read) so many articles here. Particularly undoing sexual shame and the sex goddess blues. I accept it all intellectually, but there’s something in me that still feels controlled by intense, all-encompassing shame.

I am a female, 25. I had sex for the first time in late September of this year with someone I’m dating (we are not officially in a relationship yet, even though I’d like to be). I was raised in what could be described as a very sheltered environment. Sex was never talked about in my home. And if it came up in any form, it was met with disgust and seen as dirty or sinful.

I personally believe that sex should be natural and positive, but I can’t get my heart and mind to accept that. I torture myself day in and day out for not being a virgin anymore. I’ve even read all the history behind virginity and understand it’s a social construct, but I’m still bound by such guilt that I “ lost “ something important to my identity. Like part of why I could be a “good person”, for the most part, was because I didn’t engage in sex.

But now I did that...Even over a month later, as soon as I wake up in the morning, it’s the first thing I think of. I try mindfulness and trying to label my thoughts as simply “stories”, I try self compassion...but every moment I’m so consumed with fear and shame that I had sex. I’m so incredibly stuck - it’s like I just can’t let this go and I desperately want to be free and live my life again.

Is there any advice anyone can give me? I did contact my old therapist to see if she had any appointments since I have a lot of anxiety. But I was hoping to talk to someone here too.

Thank you.

[Sam W]

Hi HollyTiger,

Thank you so much for your kind words!

I'm sorry to hear these rough feelings are all piling up on you. It sounds like you've already been doing a lot of things to try and unlearn the reasons behind the guilt and shame you attach to sex, and taking a big step in your self-care by making an appointment with your therapist. When you're dealing with emotional reactions that come from things you internalized fairly early on in life, it can take more time than you want it to stop having those reactions. So, as much as you can, be patient with yourself as you move through this process.

You mention feeling fear along with the shame and guilt. Can you say a little more about what that fear seems to be attached to? And how did you feel about the sexual interaction you had before and during the sex itself?

[Hollytiger]

Hi Sam,

Thanks for the reply! It definitely all stems from messages I received in childhood. It’s a little frustrating that even though I can realize that, these things still bother me so very much.

To answer your question about fear - and you probably see this a lot - all of my guilt and shame also manifests itself in an extreme fear, dread, and negativity surrounding the possibility of pregnancy. I received some very negative messages early on about female sexuality and often resent being a heterosexual female with a functioning reproductive system...My partner clearly doesn’t understand this (nor do I expect him to) and I feel bad about it. I’m actually getting kind of worried just thinking about this, so I’ll address the next part of your question...

Before we actually had sex, I felt like I was doing something I wanted to do. There was that nagging feeling of “you shouldn’t be doing this, it’s bad, you would disappoint everyone, you don’t do things like this, etc” but I was able to stifle that somehow. I found sex itself (ie penetration) very, very painful. There were really no good feelings along with that. I’m not sure if it was a physical problem or simply my anxiety...But that’s how it was.

If I could just flip a switch in my head, I feel like everything would be solved. But instead I’m thinking about it all the time. Driving to work trying to listen to the radio, taking a shower and trying to just feel the hot water, at work typing at the computer trying to focus...All aspects of my day are consumed by “You had sex. And you are bad because of it”.

[Sam W]

You're very welcome And you're right, those messages of guilt and shame can often manifest as fear around things like pregnancy, often because the purveyors of those messages frame something like pregnancy as "punishment" for sex. Addressing that link between that guilt and fear is definitely something to bring up with your therapist when you see them, since those are the kinds of thought patterns they're trained to help with.

Too, if sex itself was painful, that's unlikely to help with these feelings since it may feel like you took a risk and didn't get much, if any, pleasure out of it. While we can't say for certain where the pain came from, being anxious and tense sounds like a likely culprit in your case, since being tense can make inserting anything into the vagina painful (lack of lube is the other most common reason for pain). When it was painful, did you feel like you could ask your partner to stop, or switch back to a kind of sex that wasn't painful for you?

When you say you feel resentment about having the reproductive system you do, does that resentment have to do with feeling like you bear the greater risk if something goes wrong with sex? Something else?

[Hollytiger]

Definitely! It's an internal resentment. In my distorted thoughts, in heterosexual sex, it's more carefree for the male partner. After all, he doesn't have the burden of potentially getting pregnant. I know pregnancy and childbirth are very natural and are supposed to be a positive thing...And I hate that I feel this way, but I see it as almost parasitic and something I'd never want to experience. The fact that the "magical, unknown" thing that sex is supposed to be was quite painful...Well, that's kind of tough to reconcile too.

I'm sad and confused because I'm going through all this pain, while my partner is going on about his life like nothing happened. He of course says it was a special experience and only a positive thing, that it's something special to be someone's "first time", but I can't just extinguish all the guilt. I know I'm just projecting my negativity onto him at this point, so it's no use thinking like that.

Especially compounding it is I'm not in a relationship with this person. So there's technically no commitment. I always thought I'd save sex for a committed relationship, so I feel like I failed my values big time. It's like there's no going back to the way I used to be, and it's so hard to accept that.

I'm glad there's people out there like you who aren't going to judge me. I feel like now that I'm becoming less enmeshed with my parents and going out into the world as an adult, I feel the need to change my values. I don't believe a lot of the things I was told as a child. I want to be positive about sex and not feel the negativity, resentment, fear, guilt. I don't want to equate me no longer being a virgin with being a bad person - I certainly don't think other non-virgins are bad people at all. It's a standard I only hold myself to.

It's a strange thing indeed.

[Heather]

P.S. Just FYI, a fetus is, literally, for real, a parasite. So it's not inaccurate or wrong to think or feel about pregnancy that way! Even when people want it, it's still a parasite they want.

[Sam W]

It is very tough to reconcile those feelings (especially when there's truth to the fact that the person with the uterus does take on more risks from certain kinds of sex). Too, it sounds like you're having a tough time reconciling the fact that this was a positive experience for your partner while being a pretty crummy one for you. That's probably adding to those feelings of resentment or imbalance. You mention this being a casual relationship, but do you feel like this is something you can talk about, or want to talk about, with your partner? And is he someone you think you want to continue to be physically intimate with (even if you two don't engage in intercourse again)?

Those feelings of somehow failing your values because you didn't have sex under the exact circumstances you thought you would come up a lot for people, especially if they grew up in an environment similar to the one you did. A way of re-framing it that sometimes helps is that you made those plans using a certain set of information and values. But as so often happens in life, the information and values you have change, and you make new decisions based on that new information. It doesn't mean you failed or betrayed that previous version of yourself, it just means you changed a bit (and I know, understanding that concept and really internalizing it are two different things, so it's okay if ideas like that don't stick right away).

It may also help to think about why you chose to have sex, and if there were expectations or hopes attached to that which didn't come to pass. People carry around a lot of "shoulds" when they think about being sexual with a partner for the first time, even though many of those shoulds just don't reflect what sex is really like. For instance, you mention feeling like sex was supposed to feel a more special, pleasurable way than it did. Are there other shoulds that you feel you had with you going into the experience? And in the moments where things weren't going how you hoped, like the pain, did you feel like you could speak to your partner in the moment to change how things were going?

[Hollytiger]

Heather - Thanks for your reply. Yes, that makes sense. I suppose I just feel bad about my feelings toward pregnancy. Despite growing up in a rather overly sex-negative environment, pregnancy (within marriage, in their minds) was always held in high regard. So I felt wrong for feeling differently...and assumed the "parasite" thing was negative. But I suppose it is scientifically accurate!

Sam - I appreciate it so much that you understand...I really can't talk to many people in my life about this, much less speak and try to make sense of it all to them. I've tried talking about this with my partner a few times over the past month. He doesn't really know how to handle it since it's coming up mostly as an anxiety-ridden matter, and he's already stated that he can't really relate to that. I still want to pursue a relationship. I think when I made the decision to go ahead with intercourse, I somehow thought that meant we were in a relationship...And slowly over the next month I realized things hadn't magically changed because I chose to do that. Sex was just a thing we did and we are still "dating"; it didn't change that.

At the same time, I feel bad constantly putting my anxieties onto him. I know I have a disorder; I've been diagnosed in the past and have been on medication for a long time (though have since stopped). When I tried to explain that the experience we had continues to scare me/make me guilty, he said he was disappointed that I couldn't see it as a positive thing. I reassured him that I only want to see it that way. But something is holding me back. Additionally, I feel the constant need to apologize to him. A compulsion, even. I'm sure that makes him feel even more weird, honestly...

I'm going to re-read what you wrote here. And really make it try to sink in that I didn't betray myself, as you put it (that's exactly how I feel - you are highly perceptive!).

The good thing is, throughout the whole thing I felt like I could've told him to stop or do something different. He asked if everything was ok, and I do appreciate that. I feel that despite our experience of each other being still relatively new, he does care. I think I'm projecting a lot of negativity onto him right now because of those "shoulds" you mention."Shoulds" kind of go along with the whole idea of cognitive distortions...I always have this feeling that if I just THINK about it some more, I'll somehow solve it. But the thinking is actually going nowhere and only hurting. I guess it's truly rumination.

Sorry if my ideas are a little scattered; I truly appreciate you taking the time to read this.

[Heather]

Some of what I'm reading in this post and some others in the thread sound like you're also dealing with some crummy heteronormative dynamics. Like your partner expressing disappointment about your feelings instead of doing what they could to be accepting of them, even if he can't relate (and to try and find ways he CAN understand what it might be like for you and other women, instead of just leaving it at that he can't relate). Like feeling the need to apologize a lot. And, if I am getting this right, like kind of feeling at the mercy of the guy in this picture per what kind of relationship you're going to have, rather than feeling able to ask for what you want and then walk away if he's not wanting the same thing and also able to have a relationship -- whatever kind it is! -- with you where he's doing more to balance the power differential there is between men and women within patriarchy.

We can talk more about all of that if you want in a more general way, but part of me is also wondering if some of the feelings you are having aren't about some big disappointment: your own disappointment that the experience has been how it has, for instance, at these dynamics, at the way this guy has been reacting, at how it hasn't resulted in the relationship you really want. What do you think?

[Hollytiger]

Wow, I honestly never even thought to look at it that way. This entire time I’ve framed this as the ball being completely in his court and not a shared thing. That is, the question of whether it’s a “relationship” or not. I am completely leaning on (and waiting for) him to make that decision, and I hadn’t even considered that it IS my decision too.

I worry sometimes that he knows that too. And is just keeping me around til someone “better” comes along, since he knows I’m interested and readily available.

However, I also know that he has been through a divorce a few years ago, so I’ve been giving him the benefit of the doubt that he’d want to take committing to a relationship slowly.

I think you’re so right about my own disappointment stemming from his reaction. He did try to relate at some point, and told me some stories of things from his childhood that affected him today (just like things from my childhood are affecting me presently). So he wasn’t completely unresponsive to showing empathy.

I guess I was/am just hoping for some more compassion from him. But I’m also scared of appearing “needy” or dependent...Although since reading what you’ve written, I wonder whether that’s just me being entrenched in patriarchal system I never thought to question.

Thank you again for going through this thread and continuing to provide such insight. I can’t tell you how much I value this.

[Heather]

So happy to contribute.

You know, in my experience, if and when I find that I feel super-worried about neediness with someone, and like they're just stringing me along for something better, it's usually been because the relationship just isn't a good fit for me. And often that's been because that person has given me messages they don't want to be needed, and/or because they ARE doing that, which certainly sucks out to find out down the line.

So, if it's possible, I'd see what happens if you have some real talk with this guy about all of this -- if you're just super-honest about these feelings, if you feel able (and want that kind of intimacy with him in the first place). I know it can feel scary to put that out there because then you're opening yourself up to answers that you might not want, but yet, if those unwanted answers are the truth, you certainly don't want to be wasting your time here, you know?

My brain is a little fuzzy right now, so I don't have anything else to offer at the moment but that, but I can come back for more conversation on all of this later tonight or tomorrow, if you like.

[Hollytiger]

Oh, get some rest indeed! I know that fuzzy brain feeling.

I did actually broach this subject you mention as best I could recently. I stated exactly that I worry he just hangs out with me because I’m available, and is just holding out for someone else.

I don’t think he quite understood where my feelings on this were coming from. I feel we’re definitely not on the same page there. He stated that he wouldn’t continue to do things with and spend time with me if that were the case.

And yet, to me, it’s like — can’t you see I feel a bit strung along? I know 3 months isn’t a super long time, but still. I never said that part to him, again, because I’m trying to be cognizant of his past and thinking he just wants to take it slow. His response whenever I try to get a read on his true feelings about a relationship is that “we are still dating and getting to know one another”.

I feel needy for wanting to know how long that lasts...

The thing that truly compounds it all - and my rational self knows it’s deeply
flawed - is that I feel somehow ...bound?...to him because we had sex. Like I need to stick this out and see if he’ll commit. Like I don’t have the option to walk away.

I don’t want to walk away just yet. I really don’t. But the physical act of sex really, really complicated things greatly.

It’s a lot to think about.

[Heather]

The thing that truly compounds it all - and my rational self knows it’s deeply
flawed - is that I feel somehow ...bound?...to him because we had sex. Like I need to stick this out and see if he’ll commit. Like I don’t have the option to walk away.

More tomorrow, but this is something I have heard from a lot of people over the years. I can't give you anything other than anecdotal outcomes with it, but as best I recall, I can't think of hearing anyone come back to say yeah, they totally should have waited it out and it was good they did. More of what I'm used to hearing is people finding out that really, they knew it just wasn't going to be a good relationship, and staying in something that sucked or wasn't what they wanted did not make them feel better. Usually, by the time people who wait it out have gotten there, I feel like they've usually said they also got over the idea they should stay with the first person they had sex with just because someone gave them the idea that's how it was supposed to be. (Historically, I also think it's interesting to think about that from a feminist standpoint: it's really only women who have that idea about themselves, and men who have that idea about women. )

Mind, that doesn't mean THIS relationship is a dead-end. That's obviously going to be individual. But it certainly sounds like you are feeling strung along and like you're not feeling satisfied. At the very least, it seems worth having a big think on it, and about if this is -- separate from having sex with this person -- something that feels like it could be worth sticking around for and continuing to work on. Or not.

[Hollytiger]

That makes sense. It is something to think about. I’ve only ever been in one relationship before this, so despite being in my mid-twenties I feel that I really lack experience with people, particularly with romantic relationships.

A big part of me keeps saying I’m projecting my negativity onto him. Because I really do have a penchant for seeing things through a negative lens. So I just wait it out. And I continue to be there for him and try to do nice things and just be patient.

But there’s that other part that you’ve touched on. I feel kind of selfish for even beginning to feel “strung along”. I’m sure in his mind everything is fine, and there’s no malice...But I suppose I’m not a mind reader either.

I wish I considered things more before doing anything physical with this person. I have so much regret...It is truly not easy, especially with the mind attaching so obsessively to these sex hangups and sending me a fear response all throughout the day...

I feel like if this doesn’t work out, I won’t pursue something for a long time. And that’s ok. I’m very introverted by nature. I’m not too “good with people” in the natural, sociable way I’d like to be.

I now realize I’m using a lot of “I” statements here. I’m sorry this became somewhat of a journal for these thoughts. I’m so glad there’s someone reading; it’s very validating. I’ve felt so, so alone in all this.

[Sam W]

Just chiming in briefly with some thoughts. It's not selfish to want to get a more solid sense of where you stand in a relationship with a partner, or at the very least if you and they are on the same page (or compatible pages) in terms of what you need from the relationship and what you envision as the future (or lack thereof) of the relationship. Do you feel like this is a conversation you're ready to try having again, including a plan for what to do if he still won't engage with you on these topics?

I also want to say that it's okay to feel regret about a choice you made. Regret is not a pleasant emotion to deal with, but it can be valuable in terms of helping you learn what things you do or do not want to do in the future, or what things you need to be different before you try that same choice again. Making choices we regret is just part of the package when it comes to being a person in the world.

[Hollytiger]

Thank you. Your words are reassuring. I believe I will broach the subject again - after all, something just doesn't seem "right" in my mind and I can't seem to relax about it. I haven't considered a plan for if he still won't engage, so that is something I will certainly do some thinking about. I'd love to just keep going on and pretending like everything is fine, but something is telling me I need to make a move here.

I understand what you write about regret. I think these unpleasant emotional states are very "searing" to me; I'm so conditioned to getting a physical fear response when I experience them. So it's hard to separate and think about them rationally. Yes - rationally, regret has it's place and it's certainly helped me to know what I want to do now in sexual situations. Namely, I'd like to avoid sexual situations that present a pregnancy risk for the forseeable future. And regret + guilt + fear will help me stick to that.

However, though I wish I could, I can't just leave it at that - I can't just accept that I regret/fear/feel guilty and must move on. It gets stuck in a toxic way, and my mind churns it around, ruminates throughout the day, and truly turns it into a grotesque phantom idea that drains all of my wellbeing and energy. But I honestly think that's where anxiety is coming into play. Which I am hoping rather desperately that therapy will relieve.

I am looking forward so immensely to going back to the therapist on Saturday. Hopefully she will understand as you both have. Thanks again.

[Hollytiger]

Hi,

I wanted to check in and say I saw the therapist today. It was a good experience. She reframed the fact that I had sex as a learning experience, much like what was said here. I’m really trying to let that sink in. Anxiety and fearful thoughts are still overwhelming me, but I hope that one day I can accept all of this. Thanks.

[Sam W]

I'm glad to hear your meeting with her went well! Even when you've had someone help you reframe an issue, it can definitely take a few tries before that new way of thinking about things sinks in (as frustrating as that can be). Did you and she talk about ways to help it sink in or redirect the negative thoughts when they pop up?

[Hollytiger]

Yes, I can understand that. I think my fear is such an automatic reaction, it's going to take some very conscious work on my end to deal with it.

You know, after she offered her perspective and I spoke some more, we kind of went into talking about my current relationship with this person I'm seeing. So we didn't really talk about specific things like CBT techniques for negative thoughts, but I'm sure she will address that next time.

Over the years I've done so much research (and have been in lots of types of therapy before) that I'm trying to employ some things on my own to help myself. For example, today I woke up with some intense physical panic/fear as soon as I opened my eyes. Instead of being carried away by it, I kind of just noticed it and tried to feel it. Like, I told myself "Ok. This is fear. Hi, fear. You're here. I get it. I accept it." It was still very painful but I hope the more I can do that, maybe my brain will learn to stop having it happen in time.

Right now, I'm obsessing a bit. Even though I got my period and everything, that automatic, ingrained pregnancy fear lurks in my mind. I have to separate myself from that. It's not a rational fear, just an anxiety thought that's taken on that theme. Again this resource is all very helpful and I'm grateful.

[Sam W]

It sounds like you're doing an awesome job using lots of different tools to manage these fears! Being willing to do that research and take those steps (like seeing a therapist) can go a long way towards undoing, or minimizing, those negative thought patterns. And I'm so glad you've found this site helpful. If you have any other questions, or other things you'd like advice or support around, in the future you know where to find us

[Hollytiger]

I guess this is coming up because I am still very much processing the fact that this person and I are classifying as "friends" now. But wow, those shame feelings really hit today. They are always present now (painfully), but some days they are simply worse than others.

I feel so deeply tainted. Like I can never go back to the way I was before I decided to have sex. I'm sure in reality that probably sounds really dramatic but it's truly eating away at any sort of wellbeing I'm trying to hold onto. Things just aren't the same anymore, and that scares me somehow. I feel like I've done something irrevocable. Like I have this dark secret that if exposed to people I care about, they'd never see me the same way again. I don't see myself in the same way either. Very uncomfortable sitting with this. Guess I just wanted to share that. Thanks.

[Heather]

You know, if it helps, Holly, I remember feeling that way when I was younger about having been sexually assaulted: it's a big reason I didn't tell anyone for years.

But just like it's bullsh!t to suggest that sexual assault survivors are sullied or spoiled and that literally someone's genitals having anything to do with someone else's genitals in some way ever changes or ruins someone, the same is true about sex, consensual sex. All of this stuff comes from a really toxic mix of the garbage of patriarchal systems, including an insecurity about sexual power that creates the wishful thinking that someone's penis or prowess COULD (besides resulting in something like pregnancy or injury) actually change all of who someone was and the whole course of their life. It's also based in a long history of ignorance about bodies, especially women's bodies, and a long history of using the manufacture of these kinds of feelings in women to control them very effectively. Shame has been attached to sex by people and groups and institutions with power -- and particularly for women and other marginalized people -- primarily because it works really freaking well, horrifyingly well, at controlling people.

For sure, it may be that this relationship, including your sexual experiences in it have had a real impact on you as a whole person, on your life, and have created some change in you. But what that is, and if that is, isn't about what others might think or feel, or the kind of stuff I just listed up there: that stuff is about what it has meant for you, how it has impacted how you see the world and yourself, what it has taught you, etc. And that's not about a dark secret or something shameful. Sex isn't something shameful. (I know you know that intellectually, I'm just saying it in case hearing it more helps emotionally.) Falling in love and pursuing love (or even just like or sexual desire!)relationships isn't shameful. These are some of the most common life experiences on earth: almost everyone has these life experiences, and almost everyone seeks them out willingly and gladly. And like almost every other part of life with any kind of substance, they have some impact: that's okay, even though it can certainly be uncomfortable just by virtue of being change.

[Hollytiger]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. You raise many great points. That is helpful and kind of opens things up. I think when I'm stuck in shame and fear, my perspective gets constricted and it's hard to see or understand anything outside of my own feelings. I'm going to come back to this when I'm feeling bad again and continue to read and hopefully have this truly sink in...Maybe I'll get closer to getting away from relating so personally to my fear/shame.

[Hollytiger]

You know, if it helps, Holly, I remember feeling that way when I was younger about having been sexually assaulted: it's a big reason I didn't tell anyone for years.

But just like it's bullsh!t to suggest that sexual assault survivors are sullied or spoiled and that literally someone's genitals having anything to do with someone else's genitals in some way ever changes or ruins someone, the same is true about sex, consensual sex.

Heather, I also wanted to say in particular regard to this...You've given me a lot to think about here. This is a sensitive topic and that is definitely a new thought for me. Of course I agree wholeheartedly that a survivor of sexual assault is not "ruined" or something of the like. But I feel like...Had I been through that, these feelings would somehow be more valid? I feel dumb having these strong feelings after something that was a consensual experience. I can't even imagine how someone would feel after something non-consensual.

But despite our feelings of shame maybe arising from different experiences, it gives me hope that you felt similarly at some point and were able to come out the other side and even help others. I'm sure you still do a lot of internal work and it's not easy, but really just knowing that you felt this way in the past too is oddly reassuring. Like I can get over this one day.

[Heather]

I don't think there's anything dumb or stupid about how you're feeling. Internalizing all of these kinds of negative messages about sex is super common and a lot of people struggle with these kinds of feelings with sex that is both consensual and even strongly wanted. There's nothing about abuse or assault that makes feeling shame more sensible or valid: shame like you're talking about really all comes from the same source, and in a lot of ways, rape is an abuse that is about gaining power by playing on and using those cultural messages and institutionalized shame about sex to gain power.

And you know, I actually got over that way of feeling super-fast, I'd say: easily within a few years, if not less. It really is easy for me now, but I think there are a lot of unique reasons this area of things wasn't and isn't now something I had to/have to put a lot of work into to get over (unlike other things), though. So, bear in mind your mileage may vary, and it's okay for you to feel how you feel and need whatever time and process you need. That said, you may find that it winds up being quicker and easier for you than you'd think, too!