is this coercion?

[babey]

hi there, i'm confused. i know that coercion means to use force or manipulation with a sexual act even though the other person continues to say no. but i have a situation that kinda goes in the grey area?

some things worth noting

- have ocd and anxiety, so i tend to worry and overthink too much

- i'm a 17 year old nb fem-aligned person in a relationship with a 21 year old cis male (this may or may not affect your answer and judgement)

- i had sex before i met him, in fact, he was a virgin before he met me

- he's had committed relationships with people his age before, so this isn't one of those scenarios with an older man goes with a young lady because they're a loser and that's all he can get (he was talking to me about his ex which he dated for 2 years one time and said "you know how you lose your girl? you don't cherish her")

- this is his first age gap relationship, i've briefly dated a 16 year old when i was 13

- the age of consent in illinois is 17

- our families know about our relationship

- i struggle a bit with our age gap, always worrying whether or not our age gap is too big. so sometimes, it makes me feel guilty and ashamed, but i'm working on it with the support of our friends

- the situation i'm about to talk about happened months ago, so it might not even matter

- i had a toxic ex that i knew for 4 years, dated for 2, that really scarred me and left me with toxic behaviors

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sure, 4 years isn't too bad. but the growth between your late teens and early 20s can be immense, and can result in dangerous power balances. however, there are plenty of healthy age gap relationships. i really love my boyfriend, he's so smart, and funny, and talented. we have a lot in common! we met at work and have the same awesome friend group. he came to me during a time of grief and heartache, while i was transitioning breaking up and living without my ex. i just remembered that he made me smile and laugh, and i felt happy. he's so patient with me despite some of my toxic behaviors that my ex left me with (for example, when conflict begins to arise, i shut down to avoid escalating the situation, but i know that it does more harm then good)

we used to talk about being touch starved, but now we kiss, cuddle, and hold hands whenever we get the chance. do you have any idea how cool it is to have someone like that? being called cute and sexy? my ex never validated me like that! i feel so warm and at home with him!

and we also do experiment around-- we make out, have foreplay, have oral sex, etc-- and we love it. well, he's working on going down on me. he's one of those people who's sensitive to taste and smell, so like, it can be overwhelming for him-- but he's working on it. i expressed no penetrative sex until i get an iud and he understands completely. sometimes though, i experience a little guilt and shame for screwing around with him, but i'm working on it. our friends are really supportive

we started experimenting around last year of november, and the first thing we started doing was showering. we both really like the idea of it, and it's pretty nurturing. you can wash each other's hair, scrub each other's back, and you can just chill together with really nice warm water? yes please.

now the first time we showered, (talking about sex and nudity is a little awkward-- but here it goes ) he asked if we could kiss and i said yes. now, people get aroused, dicks get hard, yada yada. so, i felt his erection poke me and i felt extremely uncomfortable at the time.

the second time we showered, my mind was kind of in a different place. i was anxious and uncomfortable, thinking about our age gap. he asked me "can i kiss you?" and me, being worried about his dick touching me, said, "no." and here's the part that really bothers me, he then asked me "not even a little bit?" was that coercive?

(a bit unenthusiastically) i said yes, kissed him, woopty doo, and his weenie didn't touch me! although, in a way, i felt a little pressured, but the only reason i said no was because i didn't want it to touch me... and it didn't. i don't feel guilt tripped, forced, or molested, though. another thing worth noting is that a little while after, he kissed me again with a little tongue, and i remember using tongue too. he apologized and said "sorry", i think he realized that things were getting too intense for me.

this really didn't bother me until months later. i haven't showered with him since then, and he'd bring it up every now and then, but i'd always respond with "maybe". i do wanna shower with him, but i'm kind of afraid and avoidant of it. like a month ago around april, i finally told him i don't want to shower with him until i get an iud, because like, things can get real sexual real fast. pregnancy before my 20s? no thanks. he understood. about a week later, he brought up showering again.

gently, i reminded him, "until i get an iud."

i guess his way to compromise was "oh, it doesn't have to be sexual."

i thought about it for a moment, because i know how much he likes showering together, and i definitely wanna do it again sometime, but i still felt a little awry. i held my defense, "nah, better be safe then sorry. people get horny REAL fast."


"ok, i gotcha" he said

if someone asked me "has he ever forced you/pressured you to do something sexual?" i'd honestly cry. i want to say no, but what if i'm wrong? my brain just goes back to that one moment at january. like, what would people think? "i guess there was that one time he went past my boundaries by kissing me, but he's never forced me or pressured me into sex/raped me" he's such a great guy, he's my favorite person and best friend and has helped me through the worst times.

as our relationship progressed, he became so much more mindful of my boundaries. whenever my body language changes, he always asks if i'm ok. when he gets a little too grabby, and i say "stop" even if it's a joking-teasing sort of way, he backs off.

is this coercion? is it a big deal? should i talk to him about this, even though it was months ago? apparently this can be considered as sexual assault, and i literally feel like bawling my eyes out just thinking about it.

[Sam W]

Hi babey,

It sounds like he's a partner who is generally pretty mindful of your boundaries, unless things like "forgetting" you said no more showering until the IUD are a part of a larger pattern with him. With the incident in the shower, only you can say whether it felt like he was trying to badger or pressure you and if you felt like saying "no" was a genuine option. If you didn't feel guilted or pressured into kissing, or like something you wanted would be at stake if you said no, then this incident matches less well with the definition of coercion.

All that being said, this is clearly bringing up some really strong emotions for you, and those are worth addressing and digging into a bit. It sounds like they may be tied to fears about how the moment in the shower could be perceived, rather than with what happened in the moment. Do I have that right? And have you mentioned these feelings to anyone else?

[babey]

coercion includes asking someone again even after they said no. which is what happened to me— but i only said no because, again, i didn’t want his penis to touch me, which it didn’t. the thing i feared most did not happen!

i don’t think he guilt tripped me or forced me, but honestly, an answer for the pressure aspect is really hard to answer. like i said, i only said no because i didn’t want it to touch me, and i honestly don’t know why i said yes. maybe because it was only a kiss? the more i try to think about an answer the more anxious i get.

i don’t know, i guess the idea of my favorite person coercing me/sexually assaulting me is such a terrifying thing and i don’t want it to be true.

i actually talked to him about it last night, i said “you know there’s a reason i avoid showers with you.” and i explained, “after i said no, the appropriate response would be to leave it at that.” and he honestly sounded really remorseful, he apologizing and said, “i’m so sorry. i should have stopped after you said no.” and “why didn’t you tell me?”

my response was “because this was months ago, and it was only a kiss.” and he said “that’s not the point, i’m so sorry.”

is this something i should just move past? because like i said, this happened months ago, it was just a kiss, and it feels more awkward thinking about if anything, i think. i don’t know, i don’t like thinking about it too much.

[Heather]

I think that when we feel like we can't face something, we usually need to. I don't think that trying to just push these kinds of feelings and concerns aside is usually a good idea.

How did you feel when you had that conversation last night? Were you satisfied with his response? Did you feel safe? Do you feel resolved about this?

If not, can we maybe talk about what you need here? For instance, maybe you do feel like he made a mistake -- and it was only that -- and think he won't make it again, but you still aren't feeling like you have all you need. What else might you need, do you think? Do you want to consider not being with this person for a bit? Do you need to sit down with him and set some clear ground rules about what you do and don't want to do -- and what your conditions for doing things are -- and be sure you're both in agreement? Do you want to try seeing what it's like not to be in anything sexual with this person at all and see if another kind of relationship -- like being friends-only, for example -- feels better? Those are just a few examples of options.

[babey]

i think his response was good enough for me, him showing the remorse and apologizing was very comforting to me at the moment. it felt genuine, and this was a one time thing that happened months ago.

i just really want to stop thinking about it because it’s been bothering me on and off for a while. like, this actually began to bother me a long time after it happened, months ago. our relationship is really good right now and i think he’s very lovely.

we haven’t talked about boundaries prior when that happened (of course that’s a shitty excuse for things like rape and assault) i don’t think he would ever go as far as to rape me, but the kiss though— i wouldn’t go as far as to call it coercion (at least in my opinion) but more of just a crossing of a boundary. if it something other then a kiss, i think the story here would be a LOT different.

like, we’re pretty good with boundaries now. we had a conversation about it before we actually started becoming sexual. he’s super respectful of them, and i think at that time, months ago, that was a mistake. i feel like the way he acts now definitely made it up, but then again, there’a always that nagging doubt whether or not my feelings about this thing are wrong, like, someone might say “no, that was coercion.” or something.

i think what happened is forgivable, at least for me. because now? as time progressed, and how great our sex life is, i’d rather just forget about that one little moment. one little moment shouldn’t undermine a whole good experience if that makes sense.

i hope my feelings about this are valid

[Heather]

Your feelings about this are absolutely valid. You're also the primary expert of them as well as your experiences.

I want to make sure that you know that in order to figure out our own boundaries and those of others, we will all sometimes overstep, especially if and when there isn't a lot of clear communication going on as a regular practice. And since so many people still are coming into sexual or otherwise intimate relationships with so little of that, or so little practice before then with communication and boundary-setting skills. that overstepping is really almost guaranteed.

That all given, when someone does a thing like we're talking about here, often we will need to figure out if that was an unintentional overstep or something more intentional AND if it was the former, if it's a pattern or a one-off. Some of that is about facts, but a lot of it is about observations and feelings. How you're feeling is how you figure this out, and it's important to trust yourself.

Now, it can also happen that, for example, intentional boundary violations are super normal for someone so their feelings around all this might be skewed in terms of them not recognizing the bad stuff when they see it. But even then, when what the other person is doing isn't a one-time thing, when it keeps happening or keeps escalating, then there's a way to find out something isn't an accident, but a pattern of abuse. Make sense?

Right now, if I have this right, we've got something that is a one-time thing. The other person also seems earnestly sorry to you, and, if I have this right, this person is really great to you and you really want to be with them and you two are in a relationship it sounds like you are identifying as healthy (if you want a tool to just check that, now or ever, btw, this can be handy for that: Does Your Relationship Need a Checkup?). You feel like it was a mistake, not an on-purpose.

So, we can just keep an eye. If it happens again, come on back: we can talk about it. If your feelings change about any of this -- you're allowed! -- come on back, we can talk about it. If you just want to talk through your doubts so you have a place to put them where you can see them. we can be there for that, too (so can a private journal, if you prefer).

What someone else says about this doesn't override your feelings, though. I hear you're worried about what someone else might say, but this is all truly about what YOU feel, what YOU say and what YOU want to do, okay? <3

[babey]

for sure, if there was a whole pattern of these behaviors, it would be different.

i definitely don’t think this boundary violation had malicious intent... he just in the moment got all touchy kissy feely or whatever and it was too much for me at the time, and we haven’t discussed boundaries prior to that, so these things do happen. but for sure, he realizes it was a mistake.

right now he’s very careful and more mindful of his actions, he seems genuinely remorseful and approached me with a sort of tender and careful demeanor.

i really appreciate it, having perspective from others when you have an anxious mind really does wonders. thanks much!

[babey]

i know scarleteen really doesn't offer help for mental health and all that, but i hope venting is okay.

even though i've decided that what happened was simply a boundary crossed at the time-- all the way back from january or so-- i lack the confidence to believe that in way and i guess and it's simply worry, worry, and worry and over analyzing of what happened. he made a mistake and his intentions weren't malicious, nor was he intending to go ANY farther then that, but still.

i feel pretty weepy and anxious, like analyzing this whole moment really hard and having all these scary thoughts and fears go through my head for a long time left me pretty emotionally tired and just feeling really bad in general. being around him today felt kind of bad, i guess this is what overthinking did. earlier today, i playfully smacked him, but accidentally a little too hard.

i apologized, saying "sorry!"

he responded with "i deserve it."

i'm pretty sure he was referring to that incident. i think he needs a little time to process it... but i sure hope we can bounce back to the way things were.

thanks for hearing me out, i guess this also may be PMS symptoms kicking in... my period's in a week.

[Heather]

We are totally qualified to listen to venting.

One thing you might want to consider, I think, is taking a little time apart from each other to process and regroup, even if it's just a few no-contact days. Sounds to me like perhaps you both could benefit from that?