Any tips?

[Heather]

It's okay to swerve and ask about something else, though I would like to come back to this. At the same time, it also sounds like this girl may just wind up being one of the new, supportive friends you could use.

It sounds to me like you two may both be in pretty similar spots: both of you sound like you've been struggling with your sexual identities, and as I mentioned about you a while back in the thread, I actually think starting a romantic/sexual relationship right now probably wouldn't be the best choice for you. You just seem like you have a lot more self-acceptance and shame-fumigation to do before being in an intimate relationship is likely to be good and healthy for you and anyone else. Honestly, I trust your intention "not to fuck it up," but given the headspaces you've been in even just this week, it's hard for me to see how you'd be able to grow and sustain a romantic relationship with her (or anyone else) right now. That doesn't mean something is the matter with you, btw, in some kind of value-laden way. It just means that the timing right now for you and these kinds of relationships is likely off because you have your own work and care to center on if you're to be able to care well for yourself in any kind of stable, reliable way, let alone someone else, you know?

You could use a friend right now, you know, especially one who sounds like she understands the kinds of struggles you've been having. If your feelings change for her and they don't stay sexual or romantic, so what? Our feelings shift and change with relationships all the time, and sometimes (I'd say most of the time, honestly) when they do, it's because we're simply changing and evolving as people -- and same goes for our relationships -- and those shifts and honoring them are often what get us to figuring out what the best kind of relationship is to have with a given person at a given time.

Why not accept her clear limits and go ahead and explore a friendship with her? Maybe this is exactly the right thing for you right now.

P.S. Reminder about your agreement to try not to put yourself down here. <nudge>

[sky]

Well shit!! I just want to have her I told her I would wait forever. And I will wait awhile! But oh my gosh what if she starts to mess around with guys it’s gonna make me so sad.

I just was so happy and I still am so happy about it because she’s INCREDIBLE. I told her this morning that I am genderfluid and I told her I hoped it was okay and she said her opinion and others shouldn’t matter but of course it’s okay and she wants me to be happy. She constantly tells me how much I deserve to be happy and that it’s okay to be gay or whatever I am and that I deserve someone who will love me and I’m so valued and she wants me to know that I’m worthy of so much.

Like I feel like I don’t deserve her which is also why I had issues meeting with her. But ohhh myyy her voice is so cute and she’s so adorable and literally her laugh could cure anything wrong in this world.

[Heather]

You okay with me hitting you up with some franker-than-I-have been real talk? (It's okay to say no.)

[sky]

Absolutely! Please do

[Heather]

Okay.

I think that when we say things about people like we have to "have" them, or observe ourselves feeling/voicing a lot of desperation about the desire for a relationship with someone when we don't even have any experience really being in an intimate relationship with them (eg, we're not feeling intense about holding on to something we have built and nurtured for years) those are things to pay close attention to and recognize as signals that we are NOT in the right mindset for healthy interactions or relationships. Same goes for when we hear ourselves voicing things that make clear we have major self-esteem issues, like saying we don't deserve someone.

In other words, those ways of thinking and feeling just aren't the things that make for healthy, happy, mutually beneficial good relationships.

I understand that if and when she gets involved with guys (or probably anyone else), you may have jealously to deal with, and for sure, that might hurt and suck. But I stand by my strong feelings that right now would be a truly lousy time for you to get involved in a big intimate relationship and that doing so would likely result in a lot of badness for you and that other person.

I also really do think that there's probably some good growth for you in learning to be someone's friend who wants to be your friend, and learning how to be mutually supportive in a platonic way. When you came unto the boards, it was with one way of thinking that sex or sexual interactions could "fix" you and I feel like the intense desire for a romantic or sexual relationship with this person might be coming from a similar place. You're not broken, of course, but I do think it's really clear you have a lot of work to do and probably some changes in some things in your life to create the kind of space -- in your head, in your heart, in your life -- for a healthy intimate relationship, starting very much with the one with yourself that totally is not even remotely there yet. I know it sounds cliché, but it really is true that we can't love other people at all well when we can't even love ourselves, let alone when we are full-on hating on ourselves incessantly.

You have some rad support and community resources in Phoenix, as you might already know. If you don't know, here's one place that has compiled a bunch: https://phoenixpride.org/resources/ This also looks amazing: https://onenten.org/

Personally, if I was feeling like you are, I'd be doing all I could to get myself into therapy if I wasn't already, because my experience is that a good counselor can make all the difference. But if you don't have access, or aren't into that for whatever reason, not only can some community support do a lot of the same things, even with therapy, I'd encourage you to explore that. I think not having any real queer community has been messing you up a lot, and will go a long way for you. I think it'd be a much healthier, sounder investment of your energy right now than a romantic relationship, IMHO. I also think it'll be one of the things that help you get ready for one of those so you can have one at some point and have it go well and feel....well, even at the start, feel very different than this is feeling for you. Not desperate, not so achy, not so tenuous or scary: more grounded, more calm (even if it's exciting), more relaxed and way less terrifying.

[sky]

Shit

[sky]

I started to love myself more with masturbation if that makes sense. Like yesterday for example I had the best orgasm and I did my makeup and I didn’t feel like a piece of shit.

Like I usually feel like shit about myself in every way but I haven’t as much. Yes, I am suicidal BUT I’ve had these feelings and thoughts since I was in 4th grade. It’s normal for me now. When I don’t have them I don’t feel like me.

I know I am queer and I know I am genderfluid and I know I want to be loved.

I’m not trying to argue or seem like a bitch but I’m not sure how much more I am supposed to like myself? If that makes sense at all

[sky]

Sorry that still is a lot to take in. But I trust what you have to say. I have told you all a lot about me (more then I should) but I’ll go along with you. I mean, you’re the expert I’m the one who is on here for help. Sorry to have been a bitch. Lots to process

[sky]

Hi Alice!!

Well, I’m not comfortable being friends with her because I have really strong feelings for her. Like I always have. One time I told her I wouldn’t cancel but then I told her that all I could think about was kissing her and then I started to have an anxiety attack because that’s not what girls should think (this was in like July) and like I have tried to forget her and do other things but she’ll always pop into my mind

I need her in my life though, she’s absolutely amazing and I would be a complete fool to let her go, again. I told her she’s dealing with what I was but she’s just doing a better job handling it lol. She said she’s into girls because she still watches lesbian porn but she’s just scared (she’s never been with a girl either, she’s had girlfriends but never kissed them or anything)

I’m complicated, which makes this situation complicating

[sky]

I swear Alice was there and now it’s not there, maybe just a glitch but I am not talking to myself lol.

[Heather]

I'm sorry, sky, but I have to head out of work for the day.

I'll be back in for a little bit on Sunday and can say more, but for now? A LOT more. Not feeling like a piece of shit is a good thing, but it's not the same as actually loving and accepting yourself in a big way, and as something foundational and, for the most part, unmoving, even when you're having a hard time.

I really, really hope for you that someday in the not-too-far future you can have made some real progress with that and know what it feels like to feel radically differently about yourself than you've expressed in your posts here so you'll be like, "Oh, WOW. Yeah, actually loving and accepting myself as a regular way of being is just a whole different way of feeling than I knew."

[Alice M]

Hi sky. I'm so sorry, I accidentally responded to your posts at the end of page one rather than page two! I deleted my posts because it seemed like you'd moved on from that conversation with Heather and therefore it was irrelevant.

I also can continue this conversation with you, though I see that the last few posts you've had with Heather have been productive and you've built some great trust/rapport with them. If you'd rather wait for them, zero hurt feelings here.

[sky]

Okay Heather, I would love to hear what else you have to say on Sunday

And Alice, no if you have anything to offer or ask me I’m open to it all. As you can see I need as much help as I can get. But I don’t know. I just don’t know a lot. There’s so much to process here but I want to soak everything all you wise beans have to say!

[Alice M]

Okay.

I definitely back up everything that Heather said above. I'd recommend that you reread their post, particularly their franker-than-they-had-been post, a few times. Sometimes it helps to keep taking in the information while you're processing, with deep breaths.

This thing you said here gave me some thoughts:

I know I am queer and I know I am genderfluid and I know I want to be loved.

I’m not trying to argue or seem like a bitch but I’m not sure how much more I am supposed to like myself? If that makes sense at all

First of all, that first sentence is *great* and seems like a fantastic step. I know much older people who don't quite have that much down. I'm not kidding -- these things can be genuinely tricky to figure out, believe and say out loud.

Your second sentence here makes me think about a concept that my partner and I call being on unworthy island. It's when we find ourselves, or each other, acting like we don't need or deserve things. We'll call each other on it when we feel the other person is valuing other people more than they value themselves by not doing something that they would immediately recommend to someone else.

For instance, we're both pretty swamped with work and other responsibilities this year and are both having trouble finding time for self-care and/or fun things. My spouse suggested that I take an evening to go out and do something for myself (we have children, so somebody usually needs to be home) and when I recommended the same to him, he dismissed it immediately. He then continued to shut down every suggestion I made around this, and I suggested that he's on unworthy island and could stand to get a ticket back to the mainland.

That said, my immediate thought was that you're on unworthy island with doing things that bring you pleasure and make you feel good about yourself. At this point, after reading through your posts, the question doesn't sound like "I'm not sure how much I'm supposed to like myself" but rather, "how can I become more comfortable with doing things that I like, and feel like I deserve to feel comfortable in my skin?"

As you pointed out, your friend was supportive of you and you seem supportive of them (despite the feelings). It can be so much easier to support other people (myself included!). What would happen if you gave yourself as much flexibility and understanding as you're giving your friend?

[sky]

Okay this isn’t being mean to myself but I literally have a brain the size of a pea. I’m reading all this and getting it all but im also not getting a single bit of it. Not sure how that works BUT that’s how it’s working currently. Give me like 5-10 business days to respond to everything hahahah.

But I am not on unworthy island!! I do like myself more then I did before! I went from cutting like all the time to not (I did 2 days ago after 45 days but I’m forgetting about that and moving past it, it’s just added in with all the other scars and scabs it’s ok) but I *stopped* that isn’t that enough to like show I love myself?

Uhhhh I don’t know how to give myself that much flexibility. I’m not her with her smile and laugh and voice that makes me melt. I’m me so I don’t know how to translate the care around

[sky]

I literally just did what they said not to do!!! One part processed through the pea brain

[sky]

I really am trying to do what you all are saying. I’ve come a long way since idk 4 days ago with my I need to get laid and be straight thing I really do accept myself as queer (it’s still scary being a homosexual in the world) but I do love myself!! You guys gotta know that I’ve come a long way from 18 year old “I’m bisexual” Melissa, that’s my real name lol

[Alice M]

Yes, I see that a boundary has been set here of not accepting self-disparaging remarks from you, so thank you for catching that! I would agree that the words you used about your brain fall into that boundary (and, I note this while I spend a lot longer writing up this post than some other people would, as this is how my processing time works and it can take awhile for me, which does not mean there is anything *wrong* with my brain).

It can be tough to take all of this in, so take your time. It's a lot of information.

That sounds like fantastic progress, congrats! I agree that you're working hard to take good care of yourself there and I understand what you're saying about the progress re: feeling better than you did before, and actively making different choices to be safer and support yourself. I hope that you feel genuinely proud of this.

isn’t that enough to like show I love myself?

The good news is: this is basically up to you. You absolutely do not need to prove yourself to me (or to anyone else). I accept you for where you are, and I also acknowledge that my post challenged some of these personal self-worth concepts for you. Part of having conversations here often includes being pushed and challenged in some ways, especially with different eyes and limited perspectives on the general picture that we get in posts. Honestly, that's part of growing as a human. I'll circle back to Heather's suggestion that if you can find resources for therapy, we highly recommend doing that. It can be immensely helpful with much of what you're expressing here as feeling problematic for you, and it looks like Heather gave you some links above to begin that search for resources.

Unfortunately my final question, re: what it would look like, wasn't an easy one to answer. If there were a formula for extending the flexibility and understanding that we give other people to ourselves... well, the world would feel a whole lot different for many of us. Maybe you could take some time to process that and try to note tiny ways that you can be more understanding of yourself, like you would be for others. Even teeny-tiny ones. By taking time, I do mean hours, days, weeks and even months.

I'm headed out here shortly, and I will be back tomorrow! Thank you for trusting me enough to engage with me here, even after I made a mistake earlier.

[sky]

Thank you Alice.

I just need more time but I also don’t know if I even want to talk about it at all, like there’s just a lot happening in my life with like my mental health and such and this is hard too. I’m just not having an easy time at life currently and the one person who does make me happy is just not the person? I don’t even know what to think or how to think anymore.

[sky]

I don’t want to get in trouble for this, I’m not asking for anything but I just had my car going really fast towards a wall and I slammed my brakes last minute and then called the Trevor Project and cried, a lot to her. I don’t know why I didn’t do it. But I am shaken up but glad I didn’t.

It’s things like this that happen in my life that I just can’t really handle all the other shit too even tho I want to understand me so bad. It’s all just so hard. I just want someone to love me. Someone to help me when I’m like this.

[sky]

I’m sorry I have wasted all your times. I appreciate all that you do here. But please know I’m sorry

[Sam W]

Hi Sky,

Because we are not a resource that can offer mental health services, it would actually be deeply irresponsible of us to keep you engaged here when you're telling us your life is at risk. I'd suggest that a next step for you be to contact a resource that can offer that, so you can get the kind of support you need. You can call the National Suicide Prevention Hotline at 1-800-273-8255, or you can visit: https://www.imalive.org/ to chat with someone online.

[sky]

I’m okay.

[sky]

I’ve been reaching out. I just am sorry I’ve wasted all your times. I feel bad

[Sam W]

Sky, I do need you to know that going forward we need you to respect the boundaries and limits I and others have set here around discussing suicide attempts or ideation. In addition to it not being the safest thing for you to engage around those topics here, where we aren't able to offer the resources you need, it makes our environment less safe for staff and other users who may be dealing with (or have dealt with) those issues in the past. If you continue to post along those lines, we’ll need to move your post to moderation so that we can screen them prior to letting other users or staff see them.