complicated relationship with men and masculinity

[Lyle Lanley]

so, i am a masc nonbinary person, and am dating a trans boy, right?

but i often catch myself saying things like "men are trash/murderers/rapists" "i hate men" "they should die" etc. and talking about how they are very selfish and have built this entire world using the blood and corpses of people they oppress.
of course this is mostly relegated to cishet white men (when i say this though, people ask me "would it be different if he was (x other label)" yes it would to some degree)
and it's based on my experiences and stories i've heard.

then as usual, people chime in and tell me "not all men" and that i am too radical and am misandrist.
and call me out by saying things like, how can you hate all men when you have a boyfriend?

that's the thing. i love my boyfriend dearly, he understands my experiences and all, but he is not the kind of man that i condemn, as he's not privileged as the ones i hate are.

i talk about the men who know the world was made by and for them, who use their selfishness and power to their favour and hurt the others in the process.
as a queer poc (and we could add my size and autism in the mix if we want to) i have suffered and heard experiences of men who make us suffer.

in the first years of middle school, i've been called slurs, been told to "go back to the kitchen and make them a sandwich", been harassed and asked sexual questions. all by the boys, all as a "joke".

last year, one of my worst experiences so far happened. even if it was nothing much and people suffered more than me. i was being locked in corners, been touched and dry humped by a boy i thought i trusted, a boy i thought was smart, sensitive, and had grown. but no.

this year something happened too, it was an unwanted kiss and i felt so horrible for it. yet another boy i thought was alright betrayed me.

and more recently a clearly stoned old man tried getting close to me as i was dancing at a tribute band night, my mum had gone to pay for the food, so i felt less safe.

and some other smaller things. these boys, who objectify and fetishize people like me, will grow into the terrible men i talk about.

no matter how i feel and identify i will always be my body. i will always be "special" for having a big chest and behind, for being exotifised and hypersexualised because of where i'm from. i want to be special for my talent and skills, as myself, as who i am, not a warped male gaze perception.

and so, it's my trauma and shared trauma that makes me shake my head in disbelief when i am told that nice, sensitive men exist too. i've been told this by a boy i know, who is recently 18, and called me out on my misandry. some of his points were slightly weak, but he had great opinions.
and these men exist, not just in fiction. case in point, my boyfriend. who i knew and got with before i thought those thoughts about men.

before i had more clarity on why i felt like this, i wanted to get rid of this feeling not knowing the reason behind it. now that i know, i want to work on my trauma and beliefs about men, and feel better about masculinity, including the one in myself that i was dissociating from.

how do i get started? i know that recognising where it comes from and wanting to change is already a big step, but i want to go forward.

[Carly]

Hey Lyle -- I totally relate to how you're feeling. Existing in a deeply misogynist, toxically masculine world can be exhausting and disheartening. I know there have been days where I felt actual shame and guilt for existing because of the unwanted, relentless, and harmful attention I've received from (cis) men. I wanted to first start by affirming your feelings here, because I know how often people can push back when one expresses a distrust or discomfort like this. It sounds like you're coming to recognize that not all expressions of masculinity are problematic or harmful.

Remind me, do you see a therapist? If not, would you ever consider it? You've posted here quite a bit, but I don't recall if you've mentioned. I ask because if you're looking to work through and process trauma, generally they are more equipped to do that with you. We can still talk about stuff here, of course!

[Lyle Lanley]

thanks a lot carly. yes i am starting to realise that, trying to work stuff out and all.

no, not anymore, i stopped therapy last year, before some other problems started surfacing (like my loneliness and this misandry thing).
and then again, that therapist has been my therapist ever since i was about 6 or 7, and when i came out as trans, she initially supported me and then went right back to deadnaming me and seeing me as a girl. oh well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
she also isn't very great at my problems that are connected to me being a poc, since she's a white woman.
this digression just to say i'm no longer in therapy, although i would need that, but i don't feel like telling that to my parents for them to put me on therapy again. plus i am abroad for study right now.

i'm on here just to try and sort out my feelings while i don't have access to actual therapy, i'm not trying to substitute that or anything. i look for support and maybe a bit of help.

[Carly]

Gotcha, thanks for explaining that. It sounds like, even though this therapist had been working with you for a long time, they weren't a good fit for you as you've matured and transitioned. I think that's something to just kinda keep on the back burner for sure. Again, we ask about the therapy stuff with our users because we like to know in what other ways they are supported as they sort through and process big issues.

When you were called out for misandry by the boy you know, what did he say? It sounds like you were willing to listen and entrain those points but had some problems with the points he made.

[Lyle Lanley]

sorry i come back to this after a very long time. anyways.

my memory is fallatious so i don't remember exactly what he said, but a lot of it was "not all men, women rape/assault/kill men too..." and he mentioned a recent case with a celebrity couple when people thought the woman was the assaulter, but truly the man was way worse and everyone (including the boy i talked to) seemed blind to it.

and the thing is that my misandry is mostly constituted by a trauma response. years of my suffering at the hands of cishet white men led me to be too mad at them. i know that i'm not "special" or the only one. there is people who have suffered more than me, also because of men. and the fact that i know that makes me even more mad.

so everytime that a conversation about men and women and relationship comes up, i always tend to say or at least think these things. at times i cried in these situations, i am crying now too thinking of it.

but then when i say it, people say "what about your dad/brother/favourite singer etc"
and no matter how much i try to explain that i see that all men have unconcious mysoginistic bias, including dad, brother and whoever (just like all white people have unconcious racist bias, all cis people have unconcious transphobic bias) people do not see me as someone who's making a fair point, but a BIGOT.

they say i'm always too mad and rude also for saying things like this. but i feel they're tone policing me.
i hate this world and how people are treated.

[Sam W]

Hi Lyle Lanley,

I think you've hit on something that, in my experience, tends to trip people up in the "not all men" conversation. That is that, while there is nothing inherently dangerous about men or masculinity, we live in a society that is still steeped in misogyny and male privilege. Not only does that create the feeling of "yes, all men" to people who have to navigate it who aren't cis men, it means that even men who are wonderful or thoughtful or feminist or whatever else have grown up steeped in those messages, and often harbor bias they aren't always aware of. And those things can be hard to unlearn.

It's absolutely true that kind, sensitive, respectful cis men exist. But when you're dealing with trauma tied to things cis men did, it can be really hard to believe that, and it feels much more protective to say "nope, you're all a potential threat." But, as you've identified, this isn't a great way to navigate the world, and in the long run it doesn't necessarily help with healing from that trauma.

As for how to address this, I think it might be a case where starting with the masculinity within yourself is helpful. If you haven't already read it, I like the advice and sentiments offered in this piece: Man to Man: On Sex, Masculinity, and Being Yourself. You could think about how you'd like to embody masculinity as part of your own gender identity and expression. You could thing about if there are models in fiction who you look up to or want to be like. You could also try looking for "unconventional" men or men who talk actively about building positive masculinity that pushes back against toxic norms.