ready to date

[sky]

I have a question- when a lesbian says she’s a bottom does that mean she’s just literally on the bottom when she has sex? Because like it’s like, don’t they usually take turns like one gets head and then the other gives it back? And whatever else? Like on HER they ask, top, bottom or switch. Or does bottom mean submissive?

This whole lesbian culture is so complex and confusing and I’m joining the conversation so late and I don’t understand anything.

[Ro S]

Hi sky,

I'm really sorry that you're going through such a difficult time and feel like you don't have any support through this tough time.

I totally understand what you mean. It feels really isolating when you're not able to share how you're feeling with others. I'm curious as to why you think you're dragging your friends down by asking for support. Have your friends voiced that they don't have the capacity to be with you or do you feel it's hard to ask for help?

Sounds to me like what you're looking for is emotional support. Do you think that a hookup could provide that for you? I think it is really important and useful to be honest with yourself about what it is that you're looking for. If it's sex that you're looking for, a hookup may be the answer. But if you're wanting to have sex purely as a distraction, I would recommend being open with yourself. This doesn't mean shaming your desire to have sex but simply taking note and being honest about what you're really feeling and wanting. This is both for your benefit and to the benefit of others you may want to engage with sexually. Does this make sense?

[sky]

No they haven’t. I asked my friend if she was in the space for me to vent and she said I can vent and then I just didn’t reply because I didn’t like the way she text me back, I don’t think she had the space for me so I just am ignoring that I said anything.

I mean I want sex, I’m a horny monster but I have so much on my mind and my plate I’m not even thinking about having sex with someone else (I can just masturbate if I feel horny) but the idea of someone else hasn’t occurred to me except for like maybe after we have sex I can just be held for a little bit.

It would be so nice to be held. Like lay with someone and lay on their chest or lay on their arm. And look at the sky, or watch tv or even just take a nap, all I feel capable of anymore is sleeping and it would be nice to have a nap with someone.

I do not want someone else’s germs on/in my body but if they said they would cuddle me after then sign me up where are we meeting because I just want to cuddle. Like not to be desperate but I would like attempt to touch a penis (with a condom on it) just for some cuddles after even though I don’t like men and would completely prefer it to be a girl but I mean as long as I got held after?

[KierC]

Hi Sky,

I’m curious about this exchange with your friend. You know, your friend replying to you is an indication that they *do* have space for you. I would urge you to hear your friend when they reply to you — just because you don’t like what someone said to you, doesn’t mean that what they said is useless or that they don’t have space for you. Too, I want to add that the conclusion you’ve come to is a pretty isolating one. Why do you feel like your friend doesn’t have space for you based on their reply?

You know, it sounds like you’re ignoring some boundaries here again — both boundaries Sam and Heather have set around language, and also boundaries you’ve set with yourself around sexual activity. I think you know how we’ll respond to the insinuation that being horny is monstrous — sexual desire is not monstrous, and it’s important for you to know that this kind of language can affect the people who read it. It sounds like you’re discussing giving up the clear boundaries you’ve set to seek emotional connection as well. This is something we’ve discussed before, too, but I’m wondering *why* you feel like you’d need to give up these boundaries to be held? The idea that cuddling can only happen with other sexual acts involving genitals is not based in reality, and I do think it is based in your feelings about yourself and about sex. Why do you feel like you need to give up what you need to get what you want?

To be real with you, I’m hearing you flooding yourself with negative possibilities about what sex entails, and it seems like it’s getting in the way of you living your life/exploring connection with people. Can you see a bit of what I mean there, how you’re constructing these problems about sex that aren’t actually happening to you yet? What is your reaction to that?

I want to add too, I saw in your previous post about your grandma. I’m so sorry to hear they’re sick. I want to encourage you to spend this time enjoying the relationship you do have with your grandma, and not worry about bringing a partner in by a deadline. This is something Sam and Heather have discussed before, but I think it would be kindest to yourself to embrace this time with you and your grandma. It doesn’t need to involve a partner, and I feel like it’s not entirely fair to this theoretical partner to exist as a gift for your grandma to see. Know what I mean?

[sky]

I didn’t mean to insuniate its monstrous. It was like a metaphor. I choose to isolate right now because I just feel like a burden when I’m low. If I’m not happy and joyful, I don’t wanna bother anyone you know?

I understand what you mean about all the sexual stuff but like, would you like to tell me how to be held?

[Sam W]

Hi Sky,

I think that feeling of not wanting to burden anyone is a common one; there's a lot of outside messages that tell us that if we're not upbeat or doing okay, other people won't want to be around us. But you friend told you she was open to supporting you; I think it's worth discussing in therapy why your instinct is to pull away and give into that belief that you're being a bother even when you have explicit evidence to the contrary.

The thing is, even with that desire to be held, you're still falling back into the pattern we've talked about before where you're seeing this potentially sexual relationship with another person as a means to one, specific end; in this case, it's being held. In the previous post, it was finding someone to introduce your grandparents to. As Heather has talked about, our romantic and sexual relationships are two way streets and, more importantly, they're things that work best when we get into them because we want to be in that specific relationship with that specific partner, y'know?

Too, if I were to find out a partner had been sexual with me not because they really wanted to or were ready to but because it was what they thought they had to do in order to get another kind of intimacy, I'd feel like crud, and I suspect the majority of other people would too.

[sky]

Well I do wanna do that too, and also be held. So I’m not just an awful person using someone, you know?

[Heather]

Hey there, Sky. I have been keeping up with the conversation here, and I wanted to pitch in with a few things.

The biggest one is that, as is so often the case, I see you getting really caught up in a lot of what-ifs that are often a lot further down the road of getting to know someone or being sexual with someone than anyone is ever going to be able to get when you're trying to only come at it theoretically, and with the always-false idea that one giant group of people -- lesbians, women, men, what have you -- are all going to be similar or the same.

You and I have talked at some length about the steps you'd need to take to even have any of these kinds of interactions or relationships be a possibility, and pretty much always, we can't even get through talking about them (things like pursuing dating, or going to queer community gatherings or clubs) before you back out and say you can't handle or don't want to do those things. But if that's the case, then even talking about all of these what-ifs doesn't make any kind of sense because you aren't going to get yourself to the point where they can come into play.

So, at this point in the conversation, I'm going to suggest this: let's ONLY talk right now about things that might be within the initial stage of getting to know someone for a possible romantic, sexual, or otherwise intimate relationship. That'd be things like how to meet people and what help you need to take those steps, how to manage a first or second date or chatting with someone on an app or online to first decide if they are even someone you want to go on a first date with, and how to get a sense of if someone is or isn't a good fit for you to pursue a deeper -- or sexual, or both -- relationship with? Theoreticals just aren't going to help anyone with actuals with things like this very much, and goodness knows we have spent years talking about them as theoreticals, so whatever benefit there is to be had from that kind of talk, I feel certain you've already gotten them if you've been open to them.

See, the thing is that ultimately, any of us can only sort out most of what you're asking about with just one person at a time, as we get to know that particular person and feel things out with that particular person. People and sexuality and feelings and relationships are all just way too diverse and unique to come at this any other way.

I also certainly think talking about how to make it work to pursue sexual relationships with people when things like internalized homophobia, compulsory heterosexuality and such negative ideas about sex and sexuality are still so huge for you is a potentially fruitful avenue.

I do want to gently remind you, while I'm here, that the boards are different than chat in that they are a public place. So, this is not an appropriate place to call sex or being sexual gross or otherwise disparage them in that way, because people come here expressly to escape that, and those kinds of voiced attitudes do some folks some real harm. That kind of talk is the stuff for private therapy sessions, not a public community, okay? Moving forward, if it keeps happening, I'm going to just edit that stuff out because it only does harm, including to you, but ideally, you'll self-regulate in that way out of care for the whole community here. <3

[sky]

Hi. So i understand everything you have said but there’s a few points. No one wants to talk to me on these apps. I have every app imaginable and I talk maybe to 1 person every two months. So you know having conversations to know if I wanna go on a date is damn near impossible.

Also to add in that, there probably won’t be a second date, let alone a third so I kinda have to just be sexual on the first date if I wanna be sexual with them.

I also was thinking about how Sam and you Heather have mentioned a lot about how seeking someone as a sexual object and not a whole person is mean and damaging and yes i understand but what’s kinda confusing for me, and by the way im not trying to argue im genuinely curious. Is that you get horny and your body wants pleasure regardless if it’s with yourself or someone else, you want to have sex and how if that any different then what yall say with treating someone as an object because when you’re in that situation it’s only sexual. Does that make sense what I’m saying???? Idk how else to articulate the question/statement.

To note, I wanna be ready to get involved in queer stuff but it just makes me feel uncomfortable because I’m 27 and I don’t know how to act, how do I dress, I just don’t feel gay enough and I know you’ll all say that not a thing but it feels like a think in my head that I’m going to go and these girls are going to think I’m just a girl who wants to kiss girls for fun and it’s like not for fun for me, I want to spend the rest of my life with a woman. Like it’s not a fun past time for me you know? Like i genuinely want that for my life.

I’m just so sex consumed I don’t know what to do because no one wants a relationship with me, so that’s not an avenue I can take for a sexual relationship and then I’m not a hookup person. I wanna be one SO BAD I just am not.

[Ro S]

Hey there sky,

I really sense that there's a lot of confusion and frustration that comes up for you in regards to thinking about / engaging in dating. I get that this topic may feel really overwhelming and like you just don't even know where to start because it's bringing up a lot of emotions. So, let's take it one step at a time together.

The mentality of "having to" have sex on the first date is going to add a lot of pressure to an already overwhelming situation. I understand that there's almost this sense that you need to do it then or it won't happen at all for you. I want to talk about that more, are you okay with that? Do you think it's fair to say that you want to have fun and pleasurable sex with someone? If that's the case, like what Heather mentioned, it takes developing a sense of connection or even liking that other person enough to want to have sex. I can imagine that having the mentality that sex is necessary on the first date might make it really difficult to really pay attention to whether or not you even want to engage anything more than a date with someone. If you're only thinking about getting sex out of the way because you think it's a scarce pool of people you're drawing from, are you listening to what your needs and desires are in this context? What if the person is not someone you even like or want to spend time with? Happy to get into this more but let me know if this is making sense, ok?

I know it can be really hard to feel ready to date when you're lacking confidence in yourself, sky. I want to express that this is very common and you're not alone in this feeling. I think that the task of finding a partner or people you enjoy being in relationship with has to begin with knowing more about yourself, what you want and have the capacity to offer. I'm curious if you're open to us talking more about some of the ways that exploring finding pleasure by yourself (even in a non-sexual context) and becoming more comfortable on your own can make this whole dating thing feel a lot less daunting. As we've mentioned before in this thread, the mind will do a thousand rounds and one on how things can go wrong with dating. Instead of letting those thoughts take the lead, we can take some steps and put effort into regaining a sense of agency and rediscovering confidence, by tackling on what we can do now with what is available to us. Now, is this something you want to tackle together?

[sky]

Yes we can tackle it together, I am still confused. Like I don’t think you understand how low my options are and like i genuinely don’t know what to do and then it’s like yeah I meet someone and we have a few date ls and we do have sex, I don’t know what to do and it’s so so so overwhelming like I don’t wanna disappoint her and I’m just so confused and kinda sad honestly.

I’ve wasted so much time being homophobic to myself idk where to go now, I feel so so so old to just not be going through this you know?

I’m open to the conversations you wanna have though I’ll try really hard to grasp it all.

Editing to add some things because I re read that and things are seeping in some more. To answer one of the questions, I mean like yes I’m okay with having sex with someone on the first date even if I’m not 100% sure and like yes I wanna have fun and connecting sex but i truthfully am really feeling that it is a concept I have created in my head like the slow patient loving sex where the person tells me I’m special and they are happy to do this with me and I can tell her how pretty she is and I’m so lucky isn’t a thing that happens. I however want some connection. It makes me feel awkward like I don’t know how to act or what to say. Idk even what to do for a date. What do we talk about. Every date that was actually good that I’ve been on which is literally one the other two weren’t good but even one of those we kissed, but the good one we got sexual, like a few hours into the date. We had a car date and just talked but then it lead to more and I just really want my next time to be in a bed. I know it sounds generic but I would say 10% of my sexual experiences have been in a bed and it’s just much more comfortable and that’s where I want the next one to be at. Which is picky and I can’t even get sex, or a date so idk why I’m thinking about it lol

[Ro S]

I totally understand that this all feels so overwhelming! I think that you taking the time to voice it all out to us and your therapist is a really crucial step. Just as I mentioned before, let's do things slowly, ok? I know that there may be a sense of urgency because of how overwhelming talking about dating feels but let's try to take it one step at a time.

I am so happy that you're taking time to let some things just simmer and marinate! Let's focus on you, sky. I know you that jumping to thinking about all the things that may go wrong or focusing on things that didn't go right on other dates may be your go-to patterns but let's keep the focus on you, right now. I want to acknowledge that all those other feelings are allowed to be here but we don't necessarily need to let them steal the show. Does this make sense?

Back to you, sky. Can you take some time to think about things that make you feel good when you're alone? This doesn't have to be just physically or in a sexual context. Sam wrote this wonderful piece too that talks about rediscovering pleasure with ourselves: I Feel Good: Pleasure and Fulfillment. Give this a read and feel free to reply back with anything that you can think of that makes you feel good in your body.

You've talked a lot about wanting connection and emotional support but I have yet to hear about the ways that you take care of yourself. Yes, it's absolutely normal to desire a partner in our lives AND it's always important to recognize the ways that we also have to show up for ourselves.

You've wasted no time. You're doing what we all do; you're learning and growing. For right now, take some time to sit with some of my questions and consider bringing the focus back to you rather than the overwhelming feelings/ thoughts that come with dating. How does this sound?

[sky]

I like to do face masks, I also love to lay down and listen to music, I recently started to read again and reading outside now that it’s cooling down is such a wonderful experience, sometimes even just showering is such a nice moment like washing my hair feels so good sometimes.

[Ro S]

Hi sky,

Thank you for sitting with my questions and taking time to answer. The reason I asked for you to bring the focus back to yourself is so that you have reminders of how there's lots of safety and pleasure when you're alone. The thing is, sky, that when the mind is going a mile a minute and we're feeling overwhelmed or stressed out, that's a recipe for getting sucked into mental patterns that don't actually help us with our situation at hand. You might find it useful to engage in some of these, like listening to music while laying down or reading outside in the cool weather, when you feel yourself get overwhelmed by all the possibilities of things that can go wrong with dating.

I think it's important for us to talk about those concerns you bring up with dating and we should also make time to find ways that can gently bring you back to a centered mind space. I think that the best decisions we make often come when we're feeling comfortable in our bodies and in a clear mental space, especially in terms of dating. What do you think about all this? Do you think it's realistic to engage in some of the things you've listed when you're feeling overwhelmed by all the stress of dating?

My goal with everything here is to make sure we keep all the focus on you. Yes, we can certainly discuss fears and concerns with potential dates but in order for us to really tackle the concerns at hand, which is you wanting to date more, we should talk about what you can do right now with people you want to date and will talk to. Is this making sense, sky?

[sky]

I mean like yeah it makes sense but it also doesn’t. Like all I wanna do is have some sex, idk why it’s such a big deal in my head and then made it a big deal here and now I feel everyone’s just annoyed and like all I wanted was to have sex. That’s all I wanted and idk why it turned into all of this, I really can mess everything up and make it not make sense.

[Heather]

I don't want to move too far from where Ro was with you, Sky, but I do want to address what you have just said.

So, in order to have sex with someone else, we still have to find that person, get to know them at least enough to make sure they're a good fit for us and we for them and to establish some baselines (around communication, wants and needs, limits and boundaries) before we can have sex together. Only talking about the stage where all that other stuff has already happened and we are talking about the sex doesn't make sense if -- as you and I have talked about a lot in the past -- you aren't open to or willing to do all that stuff to meet whoever this person is in the first place. Alas, sexual partners do not tend to just fall out of the sky, especially in 2024's dating (or hooking up, if you prefer) landscape.

Only talking with you about things many steps ahead of where you are, something we have done for years now, is not going to be of much use, as I think is pretty obvious per being kind of stuck in the endless loop of all the kinds of questions and concerns you bring up again and again, year after year. And again, theoretical conversations about theoretical sexual partners aren't useful in this context period, because no one can ever speak for what any one given person wants or needs, how things will be between any two random people, etc.

"Start where you are" is a helpful term here. You're not yet at having sex with someone because there isn't yet a someone. There are other things -- like some of what Ro has brought up -- that also feel like important starting points for you, too, but if you want to talk about having sex with someone else as something that can actually happen, you have to first do the work of finding the someone else.

[sky]

See but you say I’m not taking the steps or whatever to get there but I am, I try to talk to people, I’m on dating sites. Yeah I don’t go to lesbian bars because I’m just entirely uncomfortable being around that many lesbians when I’m just a dumb lesbian.

So like yeah starting where I am, I’m alone and I want to change that but I’m doing what I can to change it and nothing is happening. Do you get what I mean?

[Heather]

(Please stop using language like dumb here on the boards. Used as a slur it is offensive to mute people, but it also doesn't abide by the limit we have around not putting yourself down.)

So, there's some inconsistency between what you are saying here and what we have talked about in chat, and it may be that part of that is that you're not yet strategically thinking about any of this.

For example, we had a whole chat about you telling me about a local lesbian bar and you thinking about exploring it. We had a talk about that and even a possible goal of going for a night. Then, in the last few minutes of that chat, you did a quick 360 and said a different version of what you were saying here (though in that case, it was the "but I am not a lesbian" version).

It may be that you simply don't feel comfortable meeting people at bars and don't want to do that. If that's the case, that's okay, but then let's not talk about going to the bar as if it IS something that could happen. Not only is that not a sound use of either of our time, if you feel strongly about not meeting people that way, it's also keeping you from figuring out and fine-tuning the ways you ARE comfortable meeting people and DO want to try using.

Apps/dating sites, for instance: if that's a way you do feel comfortable trying to meet people, then let's talk about how you are using them. Which ones? And what does your profile say on it? Who do you tend to choose when you are swiping? All of these are things to look at to make the apps actually work for you. If, as you are saying in a post upthread here, you are on more than one app but you only a few people a year are swiping on you, then chances are good it's a matter of not using the best ones for you and what you are looking for, or possibly needing to make some changes to how you present yourself on them.

We could also talk about things like we have in the past like checking out your local queer community center.

These are all practical steps to take or evaluate to make meeting people who also want what you want a reality. But in order to take those, we have to stay focused on them and really drill down into the details. Is that something you are willing to do?

[sky]

Hinge, bumble, her. I was on okcupid before, plenty of fish and tinder.

My profiles are all different some just say hopeless romantic in my bio and filled out some random things about me, it just depends. Some of them I’m not very active on like bumble and I have it set to men still.

[sky]

I also do wanna note that while I mostly get what you are all saying. I don’t think that yall understand how deeply lonely I am. It’s like I get I need to care for myself but I also don’t think anyone understands this empty void I have.

I would date like anyone if I had the opportunity just so I could have someone. Someone to hold and hang out with, and to love, and like idk. I just miss doing stuff with someone I liked and holding hands and it always being something new with them.

I get myself matters first but myself is alone and I don’t want that. I just started to experience love and intimacy a few years ago and it was so short lived, I don’t know if I’m capable of having it again. It’s like I say I want to be loved but I truly don’t think I am open to letting someone love me. I block myself off and it just hurts but I’ve been doing it for so long I don’t know how to not be like this. I don’t let anyone in.

[Latha]

Hi there, Sky

When we ask you to focus on yourself, it isn't because you should feel fine being alone. Human beings are social creatures — your desire for connection and support and deeply understandable. Taking the time to care for yourself can help you manage anxiety, and tune out any insecurities or other people's ideas of what you should want. It will make it easier to focus on what you actually need.

This is very useful knowledge to bring any relationship. It will help you make clear, confident decisions and communicate with other people about your needs. As Anya said earlier, being honest about what you want is the best tool you have for creating the relationship that you want. It sounds like you sometimes worry about ending up in a relationship that isn't right for you — this is the solution.

I think there is a pattern to be noted here. A couple of times in this thread, you've expressed a need for connection and support, or a loving relationship. But then, you discuss finding any relationship, or finding someone to have sex with. In this last post, you've mentioned that you would date someone just to have someone. But dating just anyone won't give you what you want. That comes from taking the time to find someone who is a good fit for you. Essentially, there seems to be a contradiction between what you say you need and the method you suggest to fulfill those needs.

You must also know that support and connection are not only found in romantic or sexual relationships. To be clear, it is perfectly okay for you to want a romantic/sexual relationship, but I think it would be a good idea to explore these needs in other contexts, like with your friends and grandparents. The ideal romantic relationship would not be able to replace all these other connections in your life, and it shouldn't. That would be a lot of pressure to put on one relationship. Having a network of people you care for and can rely on will only make any romantic relationship you have better. This may also make dating less daunting, since there are fewer stakes if something doesn't work out.

[sky]

I fear I will never understand what you all are saying to me fully and that I’ll be going back and forth forever. That I’ll always be lonely and not know love or how sex feels or a healthy relationship or anything.

I feel I just don’t know how to understand and that I don’t know how to communicate anything fully and like especially to my therapist, it’s something that I just can’t fully do. It’s so embarrassing and uncomfortable.

I’m beyond terrified I’m going to spend the rest of my life fighting myself and not knowing and going back and forth every 5 minutes.

This is so isolating and feels like so much and I don’t know how to fix it, I’ve been trying for years and I just can’t fix it.

[Sam W]

Hi Sky,

I'm going to address some of what you said in this response, but I first want to circle back to conversation Heather and Ro started.

With those dating apps, I think I can see a few places where you might want to tweak your approach. Dating profiles, especially on more modern apps, are in a lot of ways a sales pitch: you're trying to present a snapshot of yourself and what makes you, well, you as well as what you'd be like as a partner. The more you can add color and personality to those profiles, the more likely they are to catch someone's eye. You also want to try and highlight potential points of connection; what you like to do, what your hobbies or passions are, etc. Those common points act as starting places for connection and conversation.

How about you choose one or two of the dating platforms that feel like the best fit for you in terms of demographics and norms and then focus on really polishing up your profiles there, rather than spreading your energy and attention too thinly?

I'm also going to second Heather's suggestion at looking at the queer community center as a place to form connections, in no small part because if you're trying to find other queer women, you kind of have to start by going where the queer women are.

In response to your most recent post, I actually have a question: how strong would you say your sense of self is? For instance, when Ro talks about centering yourself and being alone with yourself, who is that person? What does she like?

[sky]

I don’t want to be with queer women because I don’t think I’m a valuable one. I don’t know who I am or what i like so I don’t know anything about me to become more myself. I have zero sense of self besides of some bands I love and I enjoy concerts and I like to watch tv and I love the rain but like who I am inside, I have no idea.

[Sam W]

So, I think that answer actually gets at part of why you may be shying away from engaging in the suggestions Ro and Heather were making upthread. When we're not sure who we are, or we don't value the person we are, then we're going to have a heck of a time presenting that person to other people in contexts like dating.

With that in mind, I think this is another point to bring to therapy. That gives you a structured space to dig into those questions, but also gives you a space and a person who can act as a counterpoint to any negative self-talk that comes up when you're trying to do that work.

Too, while it's up to you to decide when, if, and how to engage with queer spaces, or with dating apps, the fact of that matter is that loneliness is a feeling is something we have to take active steps--including baby steps--to address. And you absolutely have it in you to take those steps, even if it doesn't feel like it sometimes. Part of why we've been steering the conversation in this direction, along with the other reasons Heather initially gave, is that identifying those steps and offering guidance is something we CAN do in a way trying to navigate "what-ifs" simply isn't.