I'm not looking to get into a relationship anytime soon, but I've noticed that sex does not=affection/love for a lot of guys. Excuse me if I sound like in stating the obvious. I'm still figuring this stuff out since I'm 15 and only done sexual things with one other person besides myself.
Guys see sex as sex. How do people find a person to be with that actually cares about your mental state and the outcome of the sex you have? It seems like it is going to be difficult to ever find someone who wants to have sex with you but also cares about who you are and if you're ok.
What are steps to take to make sure you're with a safe person who won't take advantage of you?
Affection vs Sex
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Heather
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Re: Affection vs Sex
Just FYI, a lot of what you are saying here is actually based in stereotype, not fact. So, you are not stating the obvious, at all, but instead, thinking something is universally true that was true for you about one guy, or just based on your ideas of guys as a group, a group as diverse as any made of billions of people.
Good studies have been done around this which find that there actually are not big divides with any of this with gender, and cisgender men want to guve and get affection and love with their sex no less or more than anyone else. (Though some studies find this is actually more important with men rather than women.) And of course, sometimes people of any gender only want or experience sex as primarily ohysical, but again, that is about people, not just one gender of people.
So, you are asking us to speak to an idea you have that just is not true. Where have you gotten this idea?
We can, on the other hand, certainly help you with choosing emotionally safe sexual partners for yourself, it is just that none of that has much at all, if anything, to do with gender.
Good studies have been done around this which find that there actually are not big divides with any of this with gender, and cisgender men want to guve and get affection and love with their sex no less or more than anyone else. (Though some studies find this is actually more important with men rather than women.) And of course, sometimes people of any gender only want or experience sex as primarily ohysical, but again, that is about people, not just one gender of people.
So, you are asking us to speak to an idea you have that just is not true. Where have you gotten this idea?
We can, on the other hand, certainly help you with choosing emotionally safe sexual partners for yourself, it is just that none of that has much at all, if anything, to do with gender.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead
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Fender909
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Re: Affection vs Sex
Now that you mention it, you're perfectly right.
I got the idea from my step-mom. She was the one who said that about men specifically. But I see how that is wrong and I see what you're saying.
Basically I just don't want to end up in the same situation where I feel manipulated and pressured into sex. How do I turn myself in the right direction to make sure that doesn't happen again? (Or try to make sure?)
I got the idea from my step-mom. She was the one who said that about men specifically. But I see how that is wrong and I see what you're saying.
Basically I just don't want to end up in the same situation where I feel manipulated and pressured into sex. How do I turn myself in the right direction to make sure that doesn't happen again? (Or try to make sure?)
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groudon17
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Re: Affection vs Sex
it's really hard to decipher when someone truly cares and gives you true affection or not. with my ex, i thought he cared for me in many ways he didn't but i didn't realize it until i got out of the relationship and was also pressured into sexual acts after the first few months.. while it can be difficult i think the most effective way to not fall into a manipulative, sex-only relationship is to be with someone who will wait for you to be comfortable. sometimes people may also say things like "i don't want you to be uncomfortable" but they still do things to pressure their partners into things, wordlessly or not, which is what happened to me.
you will want to wait for someone who will wait for you, someone that not only wants to avoid making you upset or pressured, but will truly mean it and show that. not someone who will get aggravated at your refusal or tell you "you're taking too long", etc. sometimes these people are hard to find but they are out there. it may take awhile. there will be someone who is happy enough just to hold your hand and be there with you and show affection in several ways just as much (or even more) than they enjoy sex.
being with someone who is also willing to talk about sex (it can be hypothetical), what you both do and do not want, how you would like it to be, etc are good ways to see if you will be sexually comfortable with them when you do decide you're ready. this will make it enjoyable and comfortable for both people, and shows that they care about your feelings and boundaries.
you will want to wait for someone who will wait for you, someone that not only wants to avoid making you upset or pressured, but will truly mean it and show that. not someone who will get aggravated at your refusal or tell you "you're taking too long", etc. sometimes these people are hard to find but they are out there. it may take awhile. there will be someone who is happy enough just to hold your hand and be there with you and show affection in several ways just as much (or even more) than they enjoy sex.
being with someone who is also willing to talk about sex (it can be hypothetical), what you both do and do not want, how you would like it to be, etc are good ways to see if you will be sexually comfortable with them when you do decide you're ready. this will make it enjoyable and comfortable for both people, and shows that they care about your feelings and boundaries.
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Sam W
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Re: Affection vs Sex
Hi Fender,
I think groudon hit on a lot of good points, especially how someone respecting and checking in with you about boundaries usually signals someone who cares about you as a person in addition to wanting to have sex with you.
I think it can also help to pay attention to how people act outside of sexual or intimate situations. It's not a perfect predictor, but often times there will be hints as to how a person views relationships and/or sex and boundaries (you'll hear them talk about friends relationships, or celebrities, etc). If something they say gives you an "uh oh" vibe, that's a signal that this may not be a good person to pursue that type of relationship with.
Too, it can help to bring up what you're looking for in a relationship explicitly with a potential partner. That way, if they're only looking for something casual and you prefer something more monogamous or some similar mismatch, you're both aware of it rather than it cropping up later on.
I think groudon hit on a lot of good points, especially how someone respecting and checking in with you about boundaries usually signals someone who cares about you as a person in addition to wanting to have sex with you.
I think it can also help to pay attention to how people act outside of sexual or intimate situations. It's not a perfect predictor, but often times there will be hints as to how a person views relationships and/or sex and boundaries (you'll hear them talk about friends relationships, or celebrities, etc). If something they say gives you an "uh oh" vibe, that's a signal that this may not be a good person to pursue that type of relationship with.
Too, it can help to bring up what you're looking for in a relationship explicitly with a potential partner. That way, if they're only looking for something casual and you prefer something more monogamous or some similar mismatch, you're both aware of it rather than it cropping up later on.
And you to whom adversity has dealt the final blow/with smiling bastards lying to you everywhere you go/turn to and put out all your strength of arm and heart and brain/and like the Mary Ellen Carter rise again.
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Heather
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Re: Affection vs Sex
One other aspect to all of this is paying attention to your own wants and feelings and giving them real weight.
I saw you having SO much anxiety and hard feelings within this relationship, but what I did not see was you really considering that those feelings were valid, and you were having them because something was pretty wrong. Too, we did not even know about this part of the relationship, despite a lot of time talking to you, which suggests to me that this was something you were not really facing, probably even for yourself.
Sometimes it is hard to do that, for sure, but we really have to be as honest with ourselves as possible, and give real weight to our feelings, if we want to be safe. If you have never read it, Gavin deBecker's "The Gift of Fear," is a fantstic book that does a great job explaining that fear is vital for our survival and well-being, and we ignore that feeling at our own peril.
And ultimately, when we are feeling very bad in a relationship, or chronically scared, we do not want to stay in it and try and wait out those feelings. We want to pay attention to them and most of the time, get out of any relationship where we feel that way. People do not feel scared all the time in healthy relationships, they feel safe.
When it somes to sex, and avoiding engaging in sex only due to pressure from someone else, you can also employ looking at and paying attention to your own feelings. If you, yourself, do not feel the desire to be sexual with someone else, do not feel emotionally comfortable being sexual with someone else, or it feels like you are only being sexual with someone else because of what they want, then you have to know something is not right. If and when that happens, you either get out of the relationship, again, or at least out of the sexual part, or you just set firm limits and shut sex down until and unless you, too, have those string desires, feel comfortable, and have an interest in sex with someone else besides just trying to placate them or keep them around. If and when the other person cannot deal with that or does not like that, then you say buh-bye.
Again, this is an area where, if we ignore our own feelings, or don't make efforts to get in touch eith them, stay in touch with them, and make choices based on them, we truly do so at our own peril.
The extra bonus when it comes to self-awareness and assertiveness with others, and wi setting and holding clear limits is that people who want someone without limits and boundaries, or someone they think they can oush around will tend to go look elsewhere, because it will be pretty clear to them that you are not that person. In oth words, self-awareness and assertiveness, as well as setting clear limits, is a very good repellent for abusive people.
(I do want to make sure you know, however, that sometimes, people just get snowed by manipulative, abusive or dysfunctional people desite all our best efforts to avoid them. And when that happens, any kind of abuse still is the responsibility of the person being abusive, not the person being abused.)
I saw you having SO much anxiety and hard feelings within this relationship, but what I did not see was you really considering that those feelings were valid, and you were having them because something was pretty wrong. Too, we did not even know about this part of the relationship, despite a lot of time talking to you, which suggests to me that this was something you were not really facing, probably even for yourself.
Sometimes it is hard to do that, for sure, but we really have to be as honest with ourselves as possible, and give real weight to our feelings, if we want to be safe. If you have never read it, Gavin deBecker's "The Gift of Fear," is a fantstic book that does a great job explaining that fear is vital for our survival and well-being, and we ignore that feeling at our own peril.
And ultimately, when we are feeling very bad in a relationship, or chronically scared, we do not want to stay in it and try and wait out those feelings. We want to pay attention to them and most of the time, get out of any relationship where we feel that way. People do not feel scared all the time in healthy relationships, they feel safe.
When it somes to sex, and avoiding engaging in sex only due to pressure from someone else, you can also employ looking at and paying attention to your own feelings. If you, yourself, do not feel the desire to be sexual with someone else, do not feel emotionally comfortable being sexual with someone else, or it feels like you are only being sexual with someone else because of what they want, then you have to know something is not right. If and when that happens, you either get out of the relationship, again, or at least out of the sexual part, or you just set firm limits and shut sex down until and unless you, too, have those string desires, feel comfortable, and have an interest in sex with someone else besides just trying to placate them or keep them around. If and when the other person cannot deal with that or does not like that, then you say buh-bye.
Again, this is an area where, if we ignore our own feelings, or don't make efforts to get in touch eith them, stay in touch with them, and make choices based on them, we truly do so at our own peril.
The extra bonus when it comes to self-awareness and assertiveness with others, and wi setting and holding clear limits is that people who want someone without limits and boundaries, or someone they think they can oush around will tend to go look elsewhere, because it will be pretty clear to them that you are not that person. In oth words, self-awareness and assertiveness, as well as setting clear limits, is a very good repellent for abusive people.
(I do want to make sure you know, however, that sometimes, people just get snowed by manipulative, abusive or dysfunctional people desite all our best efforts to avoid them. And when that happens, any kind of abuse still is the responsibility of the person being abusive, not the person being abused.)
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead
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Heather
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Re: Affection vs Sex
I also wanted to mention that it's really unfortunate your stepmother passed on that stereotype to you, though it's something we have unfortunately seen parents do a LOT, especially when it comes to stereotypes about men and sex.
Sadly, what it most often reflects are their own personal experiences, which they decided are universal (even though, again, the sound data we have doesn't show them to be at all sound in a broad way), whether that's how they were or are as men, or how they have experienced men to be. Too, if their partners have been men, some people, even people who should be old enough to better, make the assumption that the issue with jerky partners is that they have been men, when what is more often the case is that they have just been people who are jerks, and anyone, of any gender, can be a jerk. This is hardly mutually exclusive to men!
And sometimes, it's not even any of that, it's a kind of misguided attempt to try and keep you protected even when they have had experiences that have shown them that stereotype isn't true or sound. They often mean well, I think, but don't realize that what they're saying there does anything but, and also maligns billions of people.
Of course, there's also the bustedness of the whole idea that anyone can want "just sex," because what does that even mean? If it means someone only wants a sexual relationship, okay, but again, some people, of every gender, do only want a sexual relationship at a given time, and there isn't a thing wrong with that so long as people are clear about that with others, so if that's not what someone else is looking for, they can opt out at the gate. But on the whole, engaging in sex isn't ever just a physical experience: it's just not really possible for it to be unless someone has literally managed to shut down all of their body chemicals, their emotions, their memories, and is basically just seeing and treating others they are sexual with as if they were masturbation aids. Not so likely.
Sadly, what it most often reflects are their own personal experiences, which they decided are universal (even though, again, the sound data we have doesn't show them to be at all sound in a broad way), whether that's how they were or are as men, or how they have experienced men to be. Too, if their partners have been men, some people, even people who should be old enough to better, make the assumption that the issue with jerky partners is that they have been men, when what is more often the case is that they have just been people who are jerks, and anyone, of any gender, can be a jerk. This is hardly mutually exclusive to men!
And sometimes, it's not even any of that, it's a kind of misguided attempt to try and keep you protected even when they have had experiences that have shown them that stereotype isn't true or sound. They often mean well, I think, but don't realize that what they're saying there does anything but, and also maligns billions of people.
Of course, there's also the bustedness of the whole idea that anyone can want "just sex," because what does that even mean? If it means someone only wants a sexual relationship, okay, but again, some people, of every gender, do only want a sexual relationship at a given time, and there isn't a thing wrong with that so long as people are clear about that with others, so if that's not what someone else is looking for, they can opt out at the gate. But on the whole, engaging in sex isn't ever just a physical experience: it's just not really possible for it to be unless someone has literally managed to shut down all of their body chemicals, their emotions, their memories, and is basically just seeing and treating others they are sexual with as if they were masturbation aids. Not so likely.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead
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Fender909
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Re: Affection vs Sex
Wow, Heather. That's a whole lot of really great info. Thanks. I really appreciate the effort you put in here.
A lot of the things you said about signs of a possibly unhealthy relationship made a lot of sense to me. Hopefully no one thinks I'm using the "this was my first boyfriend and my first person I was sexual with" card too often, but I personally think it's an important factor in all of this. It wasn't his first relationship, but I think we were still relatively new to this sort of thing.
I wouldn't say that for a long time I wasn't facing the way he was treating me, I think it's just that I didn't really recognize it for a while. But I think most of our interactions for a large portion of the time we were together were either really depressing or about his hinting that we didn't have sex enough.
Eventually it wore me down, especially when I was starting to go through my pregnancy scare and the depression hit me. It's kinda sad, but when I'm not depressed I always try to look at things in a positive light, but when I got depressed, it was easier to see just how shitty he was being. It was so frustrating that he couldn't care any less about my mental state. He was just mad that we didn't make out enough.
My stepmom actually is heading to our city library today do I asked her if she could find that book. Thank you for the suggestion.
Anyway, as soon as I realized what his priorities were and how he was going to treat me in the process of maintaining them, I was ready to get out of there. I wondered if it would help with my depression, and I don't know if it has, but I have a feeling I would be much worse off, had I chose to stay.
Unfortunately, I have known a lot of abusive people in my life. My family says that I seem to draw in friends with a lot of issues. Most of my friends are good people, but I have known a lot of emotionally abusive people, luckily I'm not deeply involved with any at the moment.
Honestly, I do think my step-mother meant well, but yeah. I see how close minded that could be. Anyone can make sex an unhealthy priority for a specific relationship! Anyone can be emotionally abusive! And anyone can be a jerk!
Heather, id like to get with you on chat soon if that's ok.
A lot of the things you said about signs of a possibly unhealthy relationship made a lot of sense to me. Hopefully no one thinks I'm using the "this was my first boyfriend and my first person I was sexual with" card too often, but I personally think it's an important factor in all of this. It wasn't his first relationship, but I think we were still relatively new to this sort of thing.
I wouldn't say that for a long time I wasn't facing the way he was treating me, I think it's just that I didn't really recognize it for a while. But I think most of our interactions for a large portion of the time we were together were either really depressing or about his hinting that we didn't have sex enough.
Eventually it wore me down, especially when I was starting to go through my pregnancy scare and the depression hit me. It's kinda sad, but when I'm not depressed I always try to look at things in a positive light, but when I got depressed, it was easier to see just how shitty he was being. It was so frustrating that he couldn't care any less about my mental state. He was just mad that we didn't make out enough.
My stepmom actually is heading to our city library today do I asked her if she could find that book. Thank you for the suggestion.
Anyway, as soon as I realized what his priorities were and how he was going to treat me in the process of maintaining them, I was ready to get out of there. I wondered if it would help with my depression, and I don't know if it has, but I have a feeling I would be much worse off, had I chose to stay.
Unfortunately, I have known a lot of abusive people in my life. My family says that I seem to draw in friends with a lot of issues. Most of my friends are good people, but I have known a lot of emotionally abusive people, luckily I'm not deeply involved with any at the moment.
Honestly, I do think my step-mother meant well, but yeah. I see how close minded that could be. Anyone can make sex an unhealthy priority for a specific relationship! Anyone can be emotionally abusive! And anyone can be a jerk!
Heather, id like to get with you on chat soon if that's ok.
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Heather
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Re: Affection vs Sex
I absolutely agree that romantic and sexual relationships being brand new to you is a huge factor here. By all means, it is very hard to figure out what is and is not healthy, and too, I'd say, what is intensity, and what is just messed up.
I think all of what you said here is really good stuff and some great reflection. I would be haooy to make some time for you in chat. If today works for you, how about you toss up a time for me? I had other kinds of work planned for most of my day, so was only going to do chat for some of the time. So, if you give me a time in our chat hours that works for you, I can make it that time. The only spot if time I cannot do today is between 2 and 4 PST.
I think all of what you said here is really good stuff and some great reflection. I would be haooy to make some time for you in chat. If today works for you, how about you toss up a time for me? I had other kinds of work planned for most of my day, so was only going to do chat for some of the time. So, if you give me a time in our chat hours that works for you, I can make it that time. The only spot if time I cannot do today is between 2 and 4 PST.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead
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Fender909
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Re: Affection vs Sex
How about 12?
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Heather
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Re: Affection vs Sex
You got it!
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead
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Fender909
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Re: Affection vs Sex
I'm sorry Heather. Something came up. I apologize for wasting any of your time.
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Heather
- scarleteen founder & director
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Re: Affection vs Sex
I understand, and am still around for a bit if you'd like.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead
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Keda
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Re: Affection vs Sex
Just jumping back to the "first relationship card" thing - it's not a card, it's your experience! It's easy to discount experience just because lots of people have had similar ones, or because it's a commonly-told or spoken about story, but that doesn't make it any less real or impactful for the person who is actually experiencing it right now. It's always worth listening to your own understanding of your life.