Guys & Consent

[Onionpie]

I'm wondering if we could have a conversation with some of out users who are/identify as men (or who don't but were raised as men) here about messages you've gotten about consent.

Usually those conversations are about what messages guys have gotten about GETTING consent from partners for anything sexual, and usually also only female partners.

But what I'd like to talk about ifs what, if any, messages you feel you've gotten from the world, family, friends, partners, etc. when it comes to YOUR consent and the import of anyone being sexual with you seeking and getting consent from you to do sexual things of any kind.

If you've something to say about it, I'd love to listen and ask some questions.

People who are not guys, or who have never been guys, who want to talk about messages they've gotten about the import of consent from men and boys are also welcome, too!

(Originally posted by Heather on the old boards here: http://www.scarleteen.com/cgi-bin/forum ... 00488.html )

[ratperson]

I've identified as female and been raised as female my entire life, but the things I've heard about consent were largely female-centric. Women should give consent, men should ask for consent from women, etc. It's all very heteronormative and related to other misconceptions, such as the idea that men can't be sexually violated and that sex with the same-gender partner or trans people is so uncommon that it shouldn't be discussed in common sex ed.

It's only in recent times that I've looked up statistics and found that the split for sexual crimes is nearly 50/50. That really drove home the point that consent is important. My boyfriend and I have always had a relationship where if one of us wasn't up to something, we'd stop or do something else because we respect each other. I think respect and consent needs to be taught before anything else in sex ed classes, because respect and consent must go both ways, while one person in the relationship can be responsible for contraception and safer sex items (though of course sharing that responsibility is ideal as well).

I'm also interested in the point of view of male-identified people or those raised as men.

[tadpole86]

I too identify as female and was raised as a female; and I too have mostly heard about consent as revolving almost always around the female gender (which is so wrong). Also, when it comes to studies I've read (and/or studied in university), most were overwhelmingly from a female perspective. Of course, there were some significant theories/stats on male/elderly abuse that stuck with me and make total sense to me; but I find it unfortunate that males and consent are so swept under the rug in our society. If you're having sex with a male or someone who identifies as male, it is so important to make sure you have their consent, as well. Sex isn't always a solo gig and in my opinion, you need to have consent on all sides and boundaries respected before anything takes place (I'm still learning this, but still, this is what I believe).

Feeling abused, violated, or afraid are not feelings/emotions dedicated solely to women because they didn't give their consent - males should never feel like this, either.

... I could go on for days about this, but I will shut up so I don't end up writing a novel.

[Heather]

This is one of my pet topics in terms of something that I am always very concerned about and want to see change with.

But one thing I'd pitch in to kind of get this going is a realization I had a while ago when I was doing one of many bouts of head-scratching about why this seems to be so hard for so many people, especially for women with male partners, when I feel like it was easy as pie for me in my youth.

And I think that might be largely because more times than not, it was usually me -- not male partners -- doing the sexual initiating from the get-go. In other words, I was more often the one asking guys if they wanted to engage in any given kind of sex or intimacy, rather than being the person to answer their initiation, which I do think set me up for this to be less complicated and challenging, because it was ME seeking consent from the get go, rather than guys asking me, and me just answering to their desires.

One thing I've noticed with a lot of our users being sexual with guys -- again, particularly young women -- is that they do not feel able, willing or comfortable being the initiator, and thus, being a person who is doing the asking as well as the answering.

Does that seem like an astute observation, or off-base? And if it seems about right, what do any of you think can help with that, for those who do not feel able to initiate or be that bold?

[sexpositivity94]

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I identify as female and have been raised as such but I have noticed- for a while now- that (American) society has very different views on consent when it comes to male identified people (I will just refer to these people as "guys"), especially cis-guys because sadly, trans-men seem to largely be erased from this conversation.

Society very much views guys as sexual "predators" in a sense, always on the attack. Guys are the ones who 'get' sex from girls. It's a very hetero-normative view that places guys in a state of always looking for sex and having to coax 'girls' into agreeing. Sadly, because this is a common notion, guys who are victims of sexual assault, sexual harassment, or rape (ESPECIALLY by a woman) are looked on as a joke. They are not taken seriously and not believed in many cases. They are told to either 'man up', looked at as weak for not being able to fight it off (especially in the case of a female offender), or being gay (in the case of a male offender). The one that upsets me the most however, is when guys that are victims of sexual assault or abuse are looked upon as being 'lucky'

I remember a case of a 30-something year old (cis) female teacher who drugged her 16 year old (cis) male student with alcohol and marijuana when he came over to her house and raped him approximately 200 times over the course of a few years. I was horrified to hear this. I was even more horrified when I told my father about this and he responded that that boy probably felt like the luckiest kid in the world because a hot older lady wanted to sleep with him. Whoa. I could not even believe he would say that, because I am a feminist and I partially credit the way my parents raised me. Needless to say, I got pretty angry at him. For the next few weeks, I sent him and told him about articles, videos, new stories, personal accounts, and hypothetical situations to explain to him that what he said was NOT okay. Over time, he saw the problem with the way he thought. I said straight out "You would not be saying that if a 30-something male teacher did this to a 16 year old 'girl'. He didn't think of that at first, and he realized he was wrong. Unfortunately, society is not as quick to rethink stereotypes and harmful patterns of thought as my dad.

I feel like we as a society (American and otherwise) should reframe the discussion around consent. Everyone should be viewed as equally likely to want- and not want- sex. Everyone has the right to say no. Everyone has the right to say yes. Guys are not weak or less than "real men"- which I think is a very problematic phrase on many levels- if they don't want to have sex.

If anyone feels I am wrong, want to add another perspective, think I have misrepresented or overlooked something, please let me know!!! I would love to be a part of an ongoing conversation because I feel that this subject is so important!

[Jacob]

I feel for me it's not so much of a mystery... I've been in so many male dominated spaces where women are just discussed in really superficial ways, and where men can bully or goad each-other over how much sex they have or with who. I think everyone knows that women (and obviously people in general) aren't just objects, but so often people are on the one hand really scared of sex, and sexuality and talking openly about it, but specifically men are culturally sold an idea that sex validates them. So being in denial about a partner's person-hood, and being crap at consent just all goes together as a way of doing sex without having to deal with it.... a massive emotional barrier that can crush people on the other side.

I think it also comes from people just having a messed up idea of "what sex is" in the first place. For me it's just a way of having fun with someone and sharing a load of physical pleasure... but a world around me seems to attach way more than that to it, as if it were an exchange or something dirty, or dangerous, or an achievement for the benefit of male peers etc. Often the way I think about stuff is really new to people, and they find it weird... even if over time they come around. I think that really shows how absent the idea of sex as something which can be simple, shared and fun really is.

[TheVorpalBunny]

I wish I had more experience to put in more than this sentence.