Penis and Vagina size.

[IAskQuestions]

I was discussing this topic back in the old forums but that can no longer continue however I did pick up some key points I really wanted to talk about. And hopefully get some other peoples views on this topic.
The original discussion was around how a lot of people are free to talk about penis size and discuss bigger and smaller etc. But when it comes to vagina's they are not willing to suggest they may take a equal part in the role of pleasurable sex.
My honest question was simply why people do not seem to highlight vagina sizes along with penis sizes?
Now before I get the generic answers I would like to add some things.
When I refer to size i mean (Stretch of tissue, strength of PC muscles etc, lubrication levels can effect perceived size)
I am aware the vagina size varies on basis of arousal but at full arousal you would expect size to play a part unless you can show me how vagina's vary in size on average close to the SD.
The reason I bring all the up is because people seem to be OK to bash penises and people with penises on problems with their size but never the other way around. Now as before I have said sexperts have used the phrase genital mismatch to solve problems like this. (A quick google of debby herbenick is an example.) It just annoys me to see people OK to bash on about penis size which they see as less on an issue compared to talking about vagina size.

[Heather]

It seems to me you are asking and inferring the same things you were with this thread on the old boards, including asking us about things we simply do not support, like anyone bashing someone else on the basis of the size or shape of their genitals, whatever those genitals may be.

I personally feel like we gave a lot of time and energy to that thread and exhausted it utterly. And since you are coming right back here with it as if none of those conversations even happened, or with a determined disagreement about certain facts - such as that we simply cannot accurately talk about vaginal "size" in the same ways we can about penis size, which you obviously very much want to - I just do not see where else we could take this that would go where it did not already.

By all means, if users want to take part in a conversation about this, anyone who wants to is welcome to do so - and we are by no means going to stop you from having those discussions, should they occur - but know that per our staff and volunteers, we will not likely step in save to moderate if needed since we have already had this conversation with you in great depth (no pun intended).

[Infinitea]

You'll have to forgive me if I'm repeating what was said on the old boards (I'd glossed through the thread in the past but never read it fully) but I can't help but feel that you're coming at this issue from the wrong angle. You seem, rightly, be really ticked off at the way people are talking derogatively about varying penis sizes. And you're right, the way those conversations are framed usually are seriously crummy. But you seem to be trying to understand this behaviour as logical, and as matching up with reality, as opposed ot recognizing it for what it is, which is a load of BS. I mean a lot of derogatory things are said about the bodies and sexual organs of both males and females, and just like concepts of "lose" and "tight" don't actually reflect a real physical reality of vaginas, the idea that penis size is somehow intrinsically linked to pleasurable vaginal intercourse is also not based on reality (the fact that most of the nerve endings of the vagina reside in the first couple inches and that vaginal intercourse isn't even the big go to pleasure maker for most people with vagina are big counterpoints to that kind of thinking). So when you ask "why don't people talk about vagina size the same way they do penis size" it feels to me like you're trying to apply logic to statements that aren't actually based in reality.

Realistically comments that degrade someone based on their penis size or diminish their sexual worth to the length of their penis, have little if anything to do about the realities of what does or doesn't bring pleasure in sex. Instead they probably have a lot more to do with misinformation and misunderstandings about how sex works and, more than anything, are based in some pretty shady, if prevalent, conceptions of what defines masculinity. And of course the idea that a someone is or isn't man, or worthwhile based on his penis size (or sexual prowess for that matter) is a load of BS. And I'd say that that's a lot of what you're reacting to when you feel upset and frustrated by when it comes to people's conversations about penis size.

So I totally get your frustration that you've been experiences from being exposed to people trying to diminish sexual ability to the matter of penis size, and by the sounds of it being really degrading about it in the process. But I think trying to work those concepts into how you view sex, and trying to expand them to woman as well, rather than just letting them go, is the wrong approach. Because ultimately, you're right, penis size has little to do on its own with how good sex is going to feel. But rather than try and find away to expand these problematic concepts, I'd go one step further and say that the size and shape of either person's genitals on their own probably is going to have way less to do with how pleasurable sex is than the attentiveness that is paid, the experience that is shared, and the way all respective parties use what they've got.

Edit: Btw have you checked out these articles? They might give you something to think about:

With Pleasure: A View of Whole Sexual Anatomy for Every Body
Yield for Pleasure

[Snorkmaiden]

people seem to be OK to bash penises and people with penises on problems with their size

Is that something you've seen going on on this site? Because I haven't, and I wonder whether you are bringing anger or annoyance over here that should really be left where it belongs.

I'm also not sure what is actually solved by using the words 'genital mismatch'. It doesn't seem like that would really make a difference in much of anything. Except for, possibly, your feelings.

Furthermore I'll have to second the notion that genital size is a really small part of how good sex feels to either partner. Many, many other things are more important than that. And as far as I've seen, that's a viewpoint that this site as a whole seems to share, and it's very far off from bashing of any kind.

Why does genital size seem so important to you? Is there something you're struggling with in this area?

[IAskQuestions]

The problems I have been getting is that on this website it talks about how people could feel different sensations on specific penis sizes. Now that is true some penises will give different feelings to different women. But the problem I have is that statements on this website such as 'A thin penis will give this sensation....' etc (Not the exact quote but that is what it was implying) is that it puts all problems on the penis. If it said some women will feel this..... and others this...... it would be fine because that shows that not all women are the same.
By not saying this or by not including vagina size in the way it does on penis size it makes pleasure, feel one sided. Now if this were the case I wouldnt complain, but no one has given me evidence showing why womens size cannot be taken into account.
Infinitea You talk about 'tight' and 'loose' vaginas not being a physical thing, but thats wrong. Women have different strength muscles, lubrication levels etc. This explains why some women can do things e.g. Intense gripping of toys, penis etc. And why with age and child birth women feel differently, not all women do but still a significant amount report this, due to muscle tone weakening. And because we all start with different muscle tones you would assume they would not be the same from the get go.
Now I do agree that maybe calling them 'tight' and 'loose' is could be wrong because it keeps the myth that women get loose from to much sex going, and cause slut shaming. But I don't agree with completely ignoring something is good especially with the points I've raised with causing problems with men (who people seem not too bothered about when it really is the biggest sexual health concerns you see on most websites which a lot of you dont seem to see. 'Why does genital size seem so important to you? Is there something you're struggling with in this area?' Comments like this really annoy me, do you not see how many men have problems with this, more than 50% are unsatisfied with their size, and I hope the last question wasn't a personal dig at me snorkmaiden? So I ask the question back 'Why does genital size seem so unimportant to you? Is there something you're lacking with in this area?'

The reason why people start to look at gential mis-match is because it doesnt seem to put the blame on anyone. IE with men an penis size, society has combined in with masculinity and therefore your penis not being enough to satisfy women means he i simply not enough and that his partners will always prefer more.(Women have the same insecurities with breast size weight etc.) What genital mismatch does is simply tell people that no one individual is at fault (ie saying to men that their penis does not work for that partner doesnt put the blame on him, only that something needs to be done to change the mismatch e.g. positions etc and that their are women out there who would find his size perfectly fine because it matches their own size.

[Snorkmaiden]

The problems I have been getting is that on this website it talks about how people could feel different sensations on specific penis sizes.

Can you give us a pointer to where you've seen this? I do not remember seeing it on this site.

no one has given me evidence showing why womens size cannot be taken into account.

It's much harder to take into account, because it cannot be measured objectively (because something that's elastic is hard to measure) and also because it varies so much from one moment to the next, caused by differences like mood, arousal, body position and so on. I seem to remember that this has been pointed out to you before.

do you not see how many men have problems with this, more than 50% are unsatisfied with their size

No, I honestly do not see this. I can't look into men's hearts or minds. And I do not feel that my lovers in the past were worried about this.

Why does genital size seem so unimportant to you?

Because in my experience,it does not predict good or bad sex. I have had satisfying sex with owners of differently sized penises. So it would not make sense for me to see it as important.

Even if I considered someones penis to be small, the whole concept of blame or fault would not enter into it. It's no ones fault that their body part is shaped or sized the way it is. It just is what it is. Things can be below average in size; we might then call them small. That doesn't equal blaming someone for anything.

Keep in mind that most of us actually do not care as much as you may think. (And some others prefer smaller penises over bigger ones.) For most of us, a penis, any sized penis, is never enough to satisfy us; we need not just one body part, but a complete person for that.

[IAskQuestions]

Thanks for the reply.
Here is a link to the article (there are not many articles talking about penis size on here, but the ones that do seem to show a similar theme)
http://www.scarleteen.com/article/advic ... s_shall_we
"And yes: for some men with smaller (or more accurately, thinner penises), they or their female partners may not feel as much sensation as they'd like with intercourse, 'because a very small or thin penis won't create a lot of friction or that feeling of fullness and pressure I was telling you about earlier'"
The part in semi quotes is what I was talking about, it says a small or thin penis wont create that feeling period. Regardless of partner, just period. A man with a small or thin penis is really going to read that negatively and think all women would prefer a thicker or bigger penis than what he has. But this is not true.

Something that is elastic is hard to measure, agreed its probably pretty hard to measure but it doesnt mean women sizes dont vary. Studies have been done but only really on depth, not in say width (i.e. how much the vagina can stretch or how strong the muscles can contract etc.)
Now I thought I did talk about how just because something varys you can have an average. For example take a flaccid penis, this vary quite considerable. Temp, arousal, confidence etc all effect the size. Yet average can still be made, the reason for this is because it doesn't vary close to the SD. If you could show me how women vary so much I would be happy to see it.
Im not asking for specific measurements to be taken just an passage talking about why some penises may not work with some women and why some vaginas may not work with some men. But by ignoring female size you are left with only one to blame about the sensation not being what it is.

Your last points seem to be personal to you, I don't care if you personally do or don't care. I think as a website that looks at sexual health it should really think about the impacts on what it says especially penis size which is a very touchy subject. It should really try to get away from making men feel even more crappy about their size.
Its not about men being small or large, its about what men perceive as good and wanted by women or their partners. By making quotes as I stated about and not talking about vagina size, it puts the blame on those men alone which I don't see as fair.

[Heather]

Can I just briefly step in, IAskQuestions, to ask if that one piece -- since it seems to be the only one you link to around this in both this post and the previous post that was identical to this on on the old boards -- is the only piece that has you feeling like you are around all of this? And if, insofar as what Scarleteen CAN accurately and soundly do and address, you feel like your issues with this and our site, specifically, would be, if not remedied, helped by edits to that piece to word some of this differently (again, in the ways we soundly can, and in our own words, not yours, since you are not the author of that piece)?

And I am asking about you here, not all men with penises, who you just can't speak for, as none of us can speak for any large group as a whole of which we are but one member (again, no pun intended). Plus, we have never heard back anything about this piece with this save from you, and this is about your feelings anyway -- which are valid even if no one else on earth shared them -- so how *you* feel is the sound focus here.

If so, while editing advice pieces, especially some which are many years old, is not something we will often do (and that includes because we try not to rewrite our own history, as that can appear deceptive, even when that is not our intent), would you feel best about an edit to that piece? If you would, while that is not something I can do this week, I would be happy to do that in the next couple of weeks.

[IAskQuestions2]

I apologies about the long wait before a reply.

The Issue I had was mainly understanding why it could not be stated in the original text I quoted that 'Men and women both vary in genital size, this could affect the feeling of sex'.
Because that was not written my interpretation of the text was that men are solely responsible for how sex feels because women do not vary in genital size. I do not agree with this and I do not understand why no one seems to accept that a woman's 'size' being her the degree her vagina expands due to arousal, the strength of her vaginal/kegel muscles, have as much of an effect in sex as a mans size. Even if they vary from one day to the next I would of thought that arousal response would reduce the effect.

Otherwise it looks to me like you seem to 'not purposely' be targeting men. I think I was more after an explanation that an actual change.

[Heather]

Don't say I never gave you anything: http://www.scarleteen.com/article/advic ... s_shall_we



I went ahead and took the time to edit this specifically for you, so hopefully we can now move forward from here. If it still doesn't say all the things you'd like it to, that is just going to be how it goes. If you want to say all the things you want to say and read, then you'll need to be the one writing the articles.

Have a happy new year, IAskQuestions.

[IAskQuestions2]

Thanks I really appreciate the quick response and edition of the original article.
Hope you have a good new year yourself.

[Heather]

Glad it suits you!

[IAskQuestions2]

Just reading the article I still don't think we are seeing eye to eye.
Your analogy of the sock and shoe, was perfect you get more shoe sizes than sock sizes. But I can have many different socks that fit, some of these feel more snug and some baggier it depends upon the fabric. This was my point with vagina's and vagina muscles. While the physical size of vagina's is very similar the 'tightness' is what varies and can have as much of an affect on sex as penis size.
Just like while penises will completely fill a vagina (circumference wise) it will feel different depending on girth. My view on vagina size is similar, while the size will conform to what ever is inside, it will feel different depending on the strength and use of those muscles.

[Heather]

Like I said, we still may NOT see eye to eye, but this is as close as it's going to get, particularly since I have to think about more with any of our content than one what user wants or thinks.

Went all the way through it and redid the work for you this once, and now I need to ask this be put to bed, with you simply knowing we have heard you and accepting that you're still not satisfied, but that's just going to be how it is. I've gone above and beyond the call here as it is, and now we need to be done with this. It's been drawn out long enough.