I find sex upsetting to think about

[CakeFlakeCYM]

Hi. I learned about this website today. I just turned 21, I'm a cis-male. I think I'm bisexual, but I'm a virgin, and when it comes to men, I've only felt sexually attracted to men through art.

I still feel a deep level of shame when it comes to sex in real life, and my own desires when it comes to my attraction to cis-women, and my artistic beliefs. Before I describe why I feel so much shame, apologies if I say anything offensive. That's something I worry about a lot is believing things or saying things I don't realize are offensive, so please let me know.

When I was 15-16, I was typical in finding porn a fun thing to get off to, but I knew in real life, I only wanted to have sex with someone I felt safe with. I wanted it to be romantic and intimate. But I also never experienced a relationship, and didn't have many people I felt comfortable discussing sex about, so a lot of learning was me looking things up.

When I was a younger, I felt I had a lot of “women don't like sex” type messaging pushed onto me by media and culture. When I was getting older, I could tell that wasn't really true, but I also found it hard to feel confident in believing that “women do like sex”. Like, broadly, sure. But not constantly doubting that idea in my head is hard.

Because women are over sexualized in the media. Women are sexually harassed a lot. Porn is fake and made for men. I personally feel “women” and “sexuality” are most often connected in a negative light first. And not to mention, when I was delving deeper into cis-female sexuality that school never taught me, the most impactful thing I took away is things like “penis-in-vagina isn't as good for women as men” and how women don't tend to feel physically attracted to men the same way men do to women’s bodies. And I'm general just this feeling of degradation I worry cis-women have if performing a blowjob or having their breasts fondled or being seen sexually.

All of that makes it very hard for me to see sex positively despite wanting to. When I was 17, that's when I started feeling really ashamed. I felt really guilty at so much of what I wanted. Sexually penetrating, receiving oral, or enjoying breasts on a sexual level. Especially considering on average, men tend to get what they want anyway due to societal pressure.

I know clit stimulation is something many women enjoy, and penetration isn't always bad. But I feel like I see sex as a favor for a man because so much of it is built around that, and so much cis-female pleasure is not improved around men at all. I feel like if I ever entered a relationship, the best case scenario is that I'm useful. I don't understand why anyone would desire me sexually.

Something I started doing to try and keep a positive view on sex, was draw cheesy art. I got incredibly into it, I made a whole story for these two characters over the last 3 years. These characters mean a lot to me, and I feel proud of it on a personal level. The very few people who I've shown my art to think it's cute.

BUT, making this art didn't fix me. In fact, I think it made things worse. Because I'm not a woman. And I'm creating a fake world. I try my hardest to try not to make my art harmful. When I draw the woman, I try not to make it sleazy or dehumanizing. I didn't give her massive breasts, or being used. I didn't make it so she's feel attracted to the idea of “being fucked” or anything, just enjoying intimacy with her boyfriend. But I still can't help but feel dirty.

I feel extremely comfortable drawing the boyfriend sexually. Any sexual videos or drawings of men I feel far more comfortable enjoying sexually, cuz I guess my brain feels it's more likely that a guy is enjoying a sex act than a girl is, even if it's a fake drawing that isn't real. That's how I realized I could find men, or at least the cis-male body, sexually attractive. But I fucking feel so shitty sometimes creating my art.

I draw them having penetrative sex, him receiving oral. I've tried making it equal, I draw her receiving oral, having her clit rubbed. I made her the more sexually forward one and I avoid kinks or overly “porny” feeling vibes or dialogue to try to show myself that it's all ok, and to try and see sex positively again. There's still a logical part of me that feels it's ok, and sex is ok, but no matter how hard I try, I feel like everything I do would be perceived by someone as my horny fantasy, and that it's gross. I feel like I'm just back to the beginning.

I feel guilty about the idea of a woman being penetrated, whether I'm doing it, or I'm drawing it. I feel shitty receiving pleasure. I feel shitty thinking about sex. So many of my thoughts, I just feel this voice reminding me of how bad I should feel. Often when I try to Google perspectives to remind me that some women enjoy penetration or oral or whatever, I just cry whenever I see anything that reminds me that there's women who don't enjoy that, and do feel degraded by sex. I feel so bad. It ruins my mood, it puts me in such a depressed state. Being reminded of sex, or seeing it or whatever, can randomly trigger me and make me feel shitty.

Sorry this was so long, I wanted to provide all the context. I tried to condense it but this is just how my brain describes things. Sorry.

[Heather]

Hey there, and welcome to the boards.

Can you fill us in on what you're looking for from us in response to this? I think I understand the headspace you're in, but what I'm not seeing is a question in here to help guide us on how you'd like us to try and help. <3

[CakeFlakeCYM]

Hi. I'm super sorry, I don't think I realized I didn't ask a question until you told me. I do have some questions from what I said that I'm hoping aren't too beyond the scope.

So, one thing I have trouble with is trusting myself when it comes to sex specifically. I feel I can try to think logically about things, and believe “No, it's okay to want to have sex” or “It's ok to draw this stuff”. But there's still this voice in my head I feel I should be listening to telling me that I'm wrong because of an unknown reason I haven't realized?? Idk, sorry, it's hard to describe.

I also don't feel I can trust myself on any perspective of sex I have because I worry anything I think of is only in my favour. As well, I don't feel like I can have any informed opinion because I'm not a woman and I’ll never know what it's like. I just worry that even though I'm trying to be thoughtful or considerate with my thoughts or art, or my desires, I'm not, because I’m not a woman and a woman would perceive who I am and what I like as bad or flawed, and I don't want to be upsetting.

So I guess my question is whether or not there's any obvious red flags I've missed with myself? Or like, are my reasons to feel ashamed about wanting sex or creating this art justified? Because I just feel this back and forth in my head and I don't know what to think.

I'm worried these questions are beyond what you all do, and if they are, I'm sorry if I wasted everyone's time. Really my question then would be who I should listen or talk to? Because I feel embarrassed talking about this with friends, or parents.

Thanks and again sorry.

[mikky]

Hey CakeFlakeCYM,

Reading through your first post, I was very struck by how much concern you have over causing or even being associated with harm. You seem extremely concerned about this, and I want to acknowledge how hard that must be. You aren’t wasting our time- we are here to talk. But, sometimes, we might point folks toward resources beyond what we do here, like finding a mental health professional to talk to. Is this something you have ever, or would ever do? The fears you have of there being something you aren’t even aware of that could be harmful, or not being able to trust your thoughts about sex, seem to be fueled by anxiety and shame to a pretty intense point.

Women are not the only people who can have informed opinions about sex. Women also don’t have universal desires and things that are considered bad: we’re talking about more than four billion people. On this site alone, you’ll find users with shared values who have vastly different ideas about sex.

We don’t tend to get closer to understanding what we ourselves value, want, care about, hate, etc by trying to police our own minds. There is a difference between thoughtfulness and rumination, and I think you might be on the rumination side of things right now. You are not causing harm by thinking things in your own brain (really), or making art for yourself/a couple other people.

[Heather]

I want to add a little bit for you in addition to what Mikky said. (And by the way, no need for apologies for any of this. Sometimes the download alone is so much and so challenging, it's easy to forget to do any more than that.)

Some of what you have been saying has been reminding me of an advice column I wrote in 2011 to someone who was coming from a somewhat different place, and whose concerns were also somewhat different, but who I think, at the core of it all, was feeling a whole lot like you. This is a long one, but I think that at least some of what is in here might help you out some: https://www.scarleteen.com/read/abuse/i ... se-someone

Like Mikky said, you are clearly very, very concerned about causing harm. Something I know from a half-century plus of life and from working in this and related fields for decades is that people who cause harm generally do not give one tiny shit about causing harm. That's a big part of how they cause it: carelessness, literally. On the other hand, people who are deeply concerned about doing harm, and who think a lot about how they might or might not cause it, don't tend to be harmful people. Quite the opposite.

This isn't the only kind of sex you asked about, but as a lot of people here know, I have some terms that really drive me up the wall, and "penetration" is one of them, for a handful of reasons. One of the reasons is that what it is describing more accurately describes sexual assault than consensual vaginal sex, and for that reason, can leave you or others who are excited by, who want, or who enjoy those kinds of sex feeling like there's something that isn't right about it, or equitable, or that it's some kind of violation. In reality, during consensual vaginal sex, the vagina and the muscles around it (and the person it's part of) is doing just as much as a penis, hands, or a toy are: it opens, pulls and pulses, gripping tightly around whatever that is. When we have that kind of sex with someone, someone who wants that kind of sex and who is excited to have it, we can feel that happening with our fingers or other appendages, or even from the pull on a toy. The muscles of and around the vagina are strong. Sexual media and pop culture doesn't usually show us any of this, 1) because it's more a feeling thing than a showing thing, but 2) because the vast majority of that media is still so lowest-common-denominator, so sexist, and so, so sexually uneducated, which isn't surprising given it's made in a world that is also so often all of those things.

I offer you all of this because I wonder if understanding this might make you see those kinds of activities differently and feel better about them.

I also want to chime in on something Mikky said: there is no one way or ways that cisgender women like or dislike, want or don't want, when it comes to sex. Human sexuality is so incredibly vast, and that is as true for cis women as it is for everyone else. Some women, plenty of women, like sexual things that *do* mesh with the way women are often sexualized. Those activities aren't the problem, people or a culture that doesn't see, present or treat women like whole people with their own sexualities and agency is. Do you get what I mean?

[CakeFlakeCYM]

Thank you both, I appreciate the responses and sorry I took a bit to reply.

Replying to the “Have I seen a mental health professional”. Kind of. I never knew if these particular worries were worth talking to a therapist type person, nor did I feel comfortable enough to talk in detail about them. Though also, I've only ever had free counseling from college because therapy is expensive, and I don't even have the class time to spare to go anymore. Tho, in general, I feel weird about the idea of probably spending a lot of time repetitively talking to a therapist about sex when I never had it. I know I shouldn't, but it's so incredibly hard to talk to anyone in person about this, because no matter how much I wish I was comfortable talking sex, I can't help but assume others won't be, due to the stigma around it still.

Though I probably do have anxiety. However, while I heard the word before, I never considered what “ruminating” actually meant in the negative sense and realized when looking up the definition that it describes me exactly.

I read the large blog post, and I did find it relatable. I love my mom. I know she's been through a lot, and while I never felt unloved or abused in a physical sense, I feel in retrospect I wasn't parented well. I wouldn't say I felt I could talk to her about anything, she would dismiss some tough conversations because she “didn't want to deal with it right now.” She also texted a LOT, and tended to not reply when I asked for her until she was done. She also had tons of bad relationships. I was in her custody at age 8 after a divorce, and every couple years, there'd be a new guy friend around that would later disappear. I've never gotten a good vibe from a single one. When I was 12-13, there was one that was, textbook abusive drunk to my mom in particular. Every time she told me she's done with him for real, I'd still hear her fight on the phone with him or see his beer cans in the trash when coming home. Anyway, I feel because of this, she has a distaste for men that would be vocal sometimes. I understand why, and I never felt like she hated me, but when I read your blog post, I realized I might have a sort of similar feeling inside about feeling inherently wrong for being a man. When I was 18-19, I worried everyone saw me as worse or less deserving of things. While I am better now, it's still hard for me to think about anything sex related because of the reasons I’ve already talked about.

Many of the things you've discussed have helped me though. It feels a bit refreshing being told I'm probably not a bad person, but it's helpful hearing outside perspectives because sometimes there really are things I never considered for myself, like how I could be ruminating.

The last thing I wanted to say, and something I wanted to clarify more, was the art I make. I started drawing it for just myself, and eventually, uploading it online. I was getting more attached to it and putting more effort into it, and wanted to share it. I've only ever personally shared a few doodles to my two closest friends who I know wouldn't make fun of me for it. Despite that, I feel part of the reason it can also make me feel shitty is because I care so much about sharing it, despite how sexual it is. Like, I feel like I am an artist, as in I feel making things and sharing them is just my purpose in life. And I love creating the relationship between these two, and writing about them, and if given the opportunity, I would make it a movie or show or something. But like, it's also very horny, which is the thing I feel so insecure about.

I've never wanted to make it like most porn stuff where it's just people having sex unrealistically. I've never had sex, but I still try my best to think about intimacy realistically. I try to make the characters shy and silly like me and everyone else I know who's in their 20s. I try giving them passions, the girlfriend has a special interest in creating music, and filming music videos and playing things like Stardew Valley and Animal Crossing. She has ASD, she rambles, she struggles socializing a bit, enjoys soft clothing and has an aversion to spontaneous touch from anyone, and only feels comfortable being touched by her boyfriend. The boyfriend is super shy, has ADHD. He likes cooking, graphic design, D&D, but struggles to show his interests or find new ones because he feels really emotionally walled up. He doesn't like talking or initiating anything, but feels like his girlfriend is the first person who really understands him. And the reason I say all this isn't really to share my art, but to try and contextualize this dirty feeling I have making my art.

You mentioned how so much porn or sexual content in media is sexist or lowest common denominator. That's what I fear my art is as well, and why I try so hard with it. I like to think I've given these two character, and when I write stories or think about them, or draw them being romantic, or having sex, it's nice and if it makes someone aroused, it also makes someone feel happy. I want anyone of any gender to be able to see it and feel attached to the characters and feel good about the sex. But like with my feelings about sex in general, often I worry I'm just making something harmful to society. Obviously not disastrous, but more like I'm adding to a pile of porn that people find bad for the world. I don't feel confident if anyone other than men even wants to see sexual content. Like, maybe? But I've just heard my whole life that porn is made for straight men and women don't really like it.

Plus, I'm worried I'm making porn that's sexist or offensive. I'm stressed about writing the girlfriend. I'm not a girl, so I often worry if it's sexist of me to give her certain traits. Like her being the more sexually forward one because I made the boyfriend shy and not like asking for things. Or I worry if it's sexist to have her enjoy certain things about sex. It feels like someone who finds out in making this stuff would think I'm a creep no matter what. Like, it's all similar worries I have about my own desires, but I feel it can affect me more. Because again, I love creating art, I love drawing and I love these characters so much, and I like sharing it. But then I get incredibly worried about being a man creating sexual art depicting a woman. I feel dirty drawing breasts or just the girlfriend character in a sexual manner super often. Even if there was someone who identified as a woman who enjoyed my art, I worry they wouldn't find it relatable because I'm just guessing at best. Like, that thing you said about how the vagina feels when a penis is inserted in it, I never really knew. Again, I don't feel worried at all about the boyfriend. I'm fine drawing him naked and sexually, and I feel any trait or point of pleasure give him is realistic.

I want more sexual art, or media with sex, to be nice and romantic. I want it to feel real, in terms of showing a real connection and intimacy. I’ve been inspired by a few comics I've read that I feel show that. It upsets me how sex isn't like that in media. I don't think sex scenes in movies and tv shouldn't exist, but I just feel so unhappy when I see any of them. Never usually from what I'm actually seeing, I know on a base level, my brain likes seeing sexual images, but often the thinking part of my brain (I guess) triggers me to think about all of this unhappiness. Especially when I'm in a theatre or something. There's a pressure I feel from the room that I don't know is actually real or not. I almost feel like I'm putting myself in the perspective of the movie, like my sexual art is being shown off to people, and I'm feeling the judgment of all these people for being this weird person who wanted to put sex in something. And when I hear people complain about unnecessary sex scenes in things, or talk about porn being harmful, I feel like if they found anything I made, they'd find me gross, even though it's words like that which make me actively try to make my art better.

Again, I guess I don't have much of a question. But have you seen this before? Does any of this make sense? Is it unhealthy or sexist to be drawing characters sexually like I have? Again, sorry if this is a lot, and if you can't really help me.

[maille]

Hi, there!

I am sorry to hear this is troubling you so much. It is clear you have a really strong desire to be respectful and have a good grasp on how the media often portrays women.

We have had people on the boards, recently in fact, that have had queries about sexual characters and such. I do not think drawing sexual characters is inherently unhealthy at all, especially not the way you are doing it so mindfully. If you were depicting these characters in dangerous or threatening acts and that was something you wanted to carry out in real life, then we would be having a different conversation. However, from what you've shared, that doesn't sound like you at all.

No apologies necessary.

[CakeFlakeCYM]

Thanks for all your responses. I forgot to reply again. I wanted to say I appreciate all of your words and help. I'm feeling better, and you also gave me some outside perspective and words that helped me understand things more, or explain things to someone easier whenever I am in a position to talk to anyone. Sorry if those words weren't coherent haha. Anyway, thank you all, I appreciate it.

[Heather]

Glad we could help you out some with this. Is there anything else we can help you with, or anything more you want to talk about around these issues?

[CakeFlakeCYM]

Hi. Sorry it took me a bit to get to this. I guess I had one more thing. I wanted to say.

So I'm a virgin and don't really feel like I'm close to a relationship. And it's something I feel incredibly down about but also weird about. Like, on one hand, I know having sex won't change my life. It's probably not going to be good for the first time. But on the other hand, I still can't help but feel like I'm running out of time? And also feel so empty.

Really what I want is a relationship. So bad. I never experienced anything like that. I've been very alone a lot of my life, and I don't mean that romantically, I mean that generally. I moved a lot when I was in elementary school, middle school is middle school, and high school was COVID. I've kept no friends from before college, and even in college, I have friends, but I still feel this sense of emptiness.

And I hate that. I hate how I feel incomplete without a partner. It's not like I'm non functional, but whenever I feel really sad about never having experienced it, I feel like I'm wrong for feeling that sad. I know why I want to find someone. I want to find someone I can be intimate with. I want to find someone who I know finds comfort in me, and I do with them. I want to cuddle someone, and share personal things with them. And I want to have sex too, but like, I only ever want to have sex with someone I love. I don't want to make them uncomfortable. I want them happy. And I want us to be happy. And when I think about this, I tend to just feel shit. It's hard for me to even connect to people I feel. Like, I feel so masked all the time, but also I feel like a loser a lot for a lot of my very stereotypically lame nerdy interests.

I also feel like shit tho because I know I really really want to have sex. And even though I know what I'm craving is sex with a person who loves me, and who I love, I still feel I want it for the wrong reasons, or I want it even tho I have no reason to because I'm nowhere close to a relationship.

So my question I guess is how do I stop feeling this way? Like, how do I stop wanting this. I feel like the most common advice for people not in relationships is "love yourself" and to stop wanting a relationship because if you feel incomplete without one, that's a problem. But like... I just want to feel love, so bad. It feels impossible, and I genuinely feel unworthy of it sometimes because of how lame I feel wanting one this hard, or trying to find advice, feeling shitty about never experiencing one, or genuinely just the amount of sexual anxiety and shame I feel about all the sex stuff I draw or think about on my own. Like, I feel like a creep sometimes and maybe I shouldn't be in a relationship. But I can't figure out how to just... Stop wanting a relationship. I worry I'm just going to let the years pass by me and by the time I'm 30, if I do find someone, we won't have any time for intimacy. I already feel insanely busy now, and the years are already starting to go by fast.

So sorry this turned into another long one. I have a few questions I guess. Are these normal? Are these unhealthy thoughts? Are these red flags? Should I stop wanting a relationship, are my reasons bad? And how do I stop wanting a relationship?

[char]

Hey CakeFlakeCYM,

I'm sorry to hear that you've been feeling lonely throughout your school and college life. I think desiring connection is a very normal thing to experience; in fact, most people want to be known by others, be it through familial, platonic, or romantic relationships.

As someone who's on the aromantic spectrum, I don't think I've exactly felt the same way you do, but I hear you. Having someone that you deeply appreciate and care for in many ways, and knowing that said person feels the same way about you, is nice. For some people, that person doesn't have to be a romantic partner, but for others it may feel more "right" to call them such and be in that kind of relationship with them. Wanting to be in a romantic and sexual relationship isn't necessarily a red flag, so long as we A) know what kind of relationship we exactly want from our potential partner, romantic or not; B) understand that no one is going to be the exact person of our dreams and fantasies; and C) understand that no one will be able to "fix" the parts of ourselves we may see as flawed. So... related to on your concern about self-love, to me, loving yourself doesn't mean you have to hype yourself up all the time. Instead, it's recognizing our highest and lowest moments, as well as understanding that we are always deserving of care and love even if it's hard to see it. It certainly takes practice, but it's doable, and we may be able to help you with that. Do you get what I mean?

With all of that considered, I wonder if it'll be helpful for you to reflect on your current relationships; friends, family, professional (if applicable). What is your idea of intimacy? (We have an article about that to kickstart your ideas: https://www.scarleteen.com/read/intimac ... nd-so-nots) How would you describe your intimacy towards them? Aside from sex, what do you feel is lacking? Knowing what you need and what you already have can help with deciding the kind of romantic relationship you'd like to build.

[Heather]

Hey, again. I'm so sorry you're still struggling so much with all of this.

I wanted to add something to char's insights.

So I'm a virgin and don't really feel like I'm close to a relationship. And it's something I feel incredibly down about but also weird about. Like, on one hand, I know having sex won't change my life. It's probably not going to be good for the first time. But on the other hand, I still can't help but feel like I'm running out of time?

I want to make sure that you know that in this era, it's very common for people not to have had sex with a partner who are your age, and also normal not to have had a romantic relationship yet. A study last year -- and our work here every day -- found that about half of Gen Z adults have not had sexual experiences with other people. Nearly every day, someone comes into at least one of our services who is in their 20s and who is convinced they are super-late to all of this and the only one at their age who hasn't had these experiences: but the truth is, this is becoming more and more what's most common for people your age.

I can also promise that you are not running out of time. You get a whole lifetime for these experiences and relationships: there's no time at which it is too late for anyone. I get that it feels lonely to be without them when you have been wanting them and still want them, and that that feeling can make it easy to ruminate or feel like this will go on forever. But, so long as you start pursuing these kinds of interactions or relationships, that's very unlikely.

That leads me to a question: it sounds like you do want to pursue sexual interactions and romantic relationships. Do you want to talk about how you have been doing that so far to see if we can't help you fine-tune whatever you are doing to make it more likely for you to start making those connections?

[CakeFlakeCYM]

I feel like I'm trying to pursue but in the most passive way possible. I have a lot of anxiety around making people uncomfortable. I've been to like, bar parties with friends that have been full of people my age, and I've never felt comfortable talking to anyone new, especially with romantic intentions, because I worry it comes off as creepy.

I've had a few people in my life where I felt a relationship was a possible outcome, but it's been about one a year? My last year of high school, I was getting close to someone and felt maybe they were getting close to me, but I casually found out they were aro/ace. Luckily I never said anything to them so I didn't feel awkward and could just move on, but that's something that I feel stops me a lot from being direct with my interest with people too.

I'm always worried about asking someone anything because I'm worried they'll either already have a partner or otherwise not be interested, and I've made them uncomfortable, and potentially be looked at weird by that person from now on. Especially considering people I'm interested in are always not interested.

A few years ago, there was a classmate throughout school I ran into at the end of high school and gave me her number. We texted a bit, and "hung out" once, and I was scared to think of it as anything other than friendship because I was worried about interpreting it as something that could lead to a relationship. Which I kinda regret in retrospect, when we hung out it was such a textbook date. We went to a restaurant and split a meal together and everything. But I was so anxious about coming off annoying and texting too much back then that after a while I stopped texting her out of worry. It always took her a bit to reply and she never started text conversations. And I feel really bad because I remember her saying she enjoyed getting my texts.

Later in college there was a classmate who didn't have a boyfriend who I did eventually say I had feelings for and they weren't interested. We're still friends and I'm over it, but I still worry if they see me differently now.

I also once matched with someone with online dating (which I've on and off tried for years and it never really helped except this literal one time). This person I matched with was the closest I got to a relationship, as this person and I were mutually talking with an understanding that we want to see if something romantic could spark. Only person I ever had a sexual experience with, but over the phone. We didn't meet in person. Even then, I could tell my body didn't really feel comfortable. I wasn't uncomfortable or not willing, but literally, my body took so much longer than I'm used to, I felt less pleasure, she finished way before me, and that made me wonder if I'm demisexual? We never confirmed any partnership before she felt that we weren't right for each other, which I appreciated but still felt sad.

Pretty much it in terms of anything close to a relationship. I've had acquaintances and classmates who I thought maybe, hypothetically, but I usually find out their taken or realize I don't actually have any interest in them romanticlly before I want to say anything that comes across as romantic interest.

And also there is someone I'm texting right now. A classmate I never got to know much in college a couple years ago who I reconnected with randomly. We talked for a bit, she asked for my number, and we've been texting ever since, but I feel so conflicted. We don't see each other a lot despite going to the same school. We've been talking for a couple months but I've talked to her in person 3 times total. I want to ask her more often if we can meet up and talk, but I just worry if I come off as weird. Because I don't know how she sees me. I feel it's super likely she just sees me as another friend. I'm trying not to repeat how I handled texting before, and I'm trying not to think of myself as annoying when I text. I enjoy talking to her, and the couple times she talked to me about some of her interests, but I always feel like I'm interogating her when I ask her questions, but I also feel like I force a conversation about myself if I talk about anything to do with me. I don't know how much she knows me as a person. And she also comes across as a bit of an anxious person too when I see her in person. So while I know this could maybe be someone I could start a relationship with maybe, I just want to talk to her more and know her more and it feels difficult to do that. I feel like if I ask her on a date, it makes it seem like I already have romantic intentions rather than a curiosity if it'd work, but also I feel dishonest trying to be a friend because I have that curiosity at all.

I have no clue if I answered your question sorry. Basically, I don't like forcing people to have conversations with me, I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable, but also nobody ever wants to talk to me either. I feel I initiate every single conversation I have, and that's not even romantically, that's literally with everyone I know. Nobody ever texts me first, and I also just say more words than normal people so I just feel like talking to me or knowing me any closer than acquaintance is work.

[amber]

Hi CakeFlakeCYM,

Hope it is cool for me to jump in here!

I want to start by saying that for the right people knowing you with not be work. Of course there are people we wont 'click' with but I promise you that people will love the things about you you may see as 'annoying' or challenging' <3 .

Otherwise It sounds to me like you are setting yourself up great for the relationships you are looking to foster. Leading with curiosity and the goal of getting to know someone sounds perfect for creating a base of friendship (that could turn romantic)!

I do hear you that these early connections are stressful. Do you feel these same anxieties (ex. texting too much) without relationships that never have the potential to turn romantic? I wonder if putting less pressure on what a relationship MAY become would help ease some of that early stress.

I also want to point out that all of your relationships are two-way streets. As much as it is up to you to put yourself out there, consider the other person, and lay out your own feelings/thoughts, you are not fully in control. I say this because it sounds like the stress of knowing when to ask questions, or talk about yourself, or text, or invite out, is taking out the joy that any new connection should bring. Does that sound accurate? Is it all anxiety you are feeling or are you having fun getting to know new people?

[CakeFlakeCYM]

I feel anxious about texting too much or being annoying when I'm around a few friends. There's a friend or two where I don't feel anxious texting them "too much" but with many friends, I don't feel I know how to initiate conversation over text. I'm better in person, but I also feel stressed out sometimes. Like I feel a strain sometimes when I'm with my friends idk.

The second question, I wouldn't say it's fun getting to know many people at all. It's not always stressful, but just getting to know new people is absolutely not my idea of fun. I'm not sure if I've ever met anyone I've felt a spark with, or if I just can't recognize what that feels like. And sort of related, I feel I can't tell if I'm actually uncomfortable with someone, or if my body or brain or something is just not letting me feel comfortable around someone.

I worry I'm too scared of being disliked by people that I don't let myself be liked by people. Aside from a couple friends, I feel like a tertiary person in the lives of everyone I know, and I feel like it's because I'm scared of being annoying, but also at the same time... It seems like whenever I do try to let loose, and be myself, people aren't into it either, or misunderstand me, or react in a way that feels like they're saying "okay tone it back down"

Hopefully that answers your questions

[Anya]

Hey CakeFlakeCYM,

It seems like there is a lot of stress going on in your life right now, and to feel anxiety about any or all of it is completely understandable. I noticed that in your first response you mention that you've seen college counselors or free counselors in the past. I wonder if this is something you could look into getting again, even just a once-a-month check-in type deal? I know that you said your schedule won't allow it, but seeing as you have a lot to say about these feelings, as I would imagine having myself, it can be important---when something like this presents itself---to listen to what your brain is trying to tell you. I think in this case, it's to make some space to talk these things out and find someone who can listen in a more involved way than I think we can.

Are the friends who you said don't take as much anxiety to hang with people you could talk to? And if not, is the college counselor or a potentially free therapy service something you'd consider looking back into? Because even if your listener doesn't end up providing any of the solutions you may be hoping for, just processing all of this by talking about it out loud can help a whole lot.

How are you feeling about all of this?

[CakeFlakeCYM]

I do talk to my friends sometimes. Not as much as I want to, or maybe need to, but I think that's also because I'm aware that I both talk ALOT, and it's not their responsibility to be my therapist. It's hard not to feel like trauma dumping. And I also feel bad because I know I wouldn't be able to reciprocate. Like if any of my friends talk to me, I don't feel like I'd give good advice, but also I feel that me just acknowledgeing that I'm listening isn't good enough either.

But to answer the second question, yes I have occasionally talked to friends. I did the other day about stuff. It took me hours to say everything to my satisfaction about one topic, so I feel I can only really talk to them so much.

One thing I asked my friends (who are also a couple) was if it was a good idea to ask the person I've been talking to and interested in if they wanted a Valentine. Like I just wanted to make sure I wasn't in my own head, and thought a bad idea was a good idea because I worry I can't recognize if my ideas are stupid or not. They said I'm fine and it's not weird, but even then, I've asked the person I'm interested in, and haven't gotten a reply, and I'm scared I made them super uncomfortable. EVEN THO I talked to my friends, one of them being a girl, and they said I didn't do anything bad, even tho I'm entirely ok if the answers no, and even tho I know this person in interested in often just doesn't reply for a while because they forget to check their phone, it feels like my body or brain refuses to listen to reason and makes me feel super anxious.

And I would like to go to the counselor at my college. There's just a few things holding it back. Like, all the available appointments are so often in mornings during class. And I've heard there's another counselor that might be more to my schedule, but that would mean starting over with someone who hasn't been my counselor, and for only 3 months before I'm done school and thus, them. And regular therapy is expensive. I don't have a job right now because I'm full time in college and even that is overwhelmingly draining and time consuming, and I'm just living off my very particularly budgeted student loan.

All of these aren't reasons I don't want to go to therapy or counseling in that TV show way, where people don't want to face their issues. If I somehow found therapy that was free yet still good, that I could do at like 7pm when I know I'd be done everything else for the day, I'd be so excited.

It feels like I'm stuck. Not unfixabley stuck but still. Like it's just hard for me to work through things myself because I feel like I have anxiety the disorder. And even if I'm diagnosed, sure there's anti anxiety medication too but it feels impossible for me to know if most of my anxiety is like body chemical imbalance, or brain chemical imbalance, and also I'd probably need to get therapy anyway.

Sorry about all of this. I feel the conversation moved just to anxiety and trying to get help for it so sorry if I made things go way off topic.

[Heather]

Hi again, CakeFlake. There's no need to be sorry, truly. We're just glad we can help.

I hear you about the difficulties of finding therapy you can afford that also works with your schedule AND with a therapist who is good for you. You're right, it is often so, so very hard.

I do wonder, though, if maybe the right move isn't that new counselor who otherwise works for you. How long have you been seeing the current one? I ask, because at a young age (as in, you're not coming to a therapist with 50 years of life history to download) and with a therapist you have been seeing for less than a year or two, starting anew shouldn't actually be that big of a drag or a lift. I also hear you with the only three months left, but when it comes to anxiety help, a lot can sometimes be accomplished in a few months.

What do you think?

[CakeFlakeCYM]

Sorry. I'm finding it difficult to respond. And I'm not even realizing when I'm apologizing I don't think. Anyway, Everything feels so heavy. I feel so unhappy whenever I think too long about stuff. Like right now, I've just been trying to sleep and I feel nothing but negativity. I feel I've made the person I've been messaging uncomfortable.

I feel unloved. I'm nobody's best friend or partner, not that I deserve to be. Because I also feel too walled up to not be anything other than a people pleaser because I'm too scared of people disliking me. But whenever I feel like I am myself, I feel annoying, and if I'm more upfront about my feelings, or if I want to say "hey I'm interested" in someone, I'm making people uncomfortable. It's hard to be myself when I have been and was told by two seperate friends unaware of the other one that I talk to much. I don't feel I do anything right, ever, or like, I don't feel I do anything how I'm supposed to.

And genuinely, while I want to go to therapy, I have no clue really how long this all takes to fix. I don't know what to focus on first. I feel so unhappy about so many things in my life that I struggle to think of anything that probably wouldn't go into negativity or worry if I think long enough. I don't even know how therapy actually helps you. Like I don't know how it'd help me. If I've been like... Trying my hardest to find things that help me and I'm still feeling this way, what does therapy do differently? Like, I feel there has to be something it does, but I don't know what it does to brains to heal them. Id genuinely like to know though

I'm sorry. I'm genuinely sorry. I know I shouldn't keep apologizing but I feel I've devolved this thread so much. I just feel so alone, and so pathetic for feeling this way because I'm not open and extroverted enough to even feel like I've tried, or feel like I have a personality that someone should feel attracted to, or interests or hobbies that don't feel childish or degenerate. Like, I enjoy YouTube and games and nerd stuff... And I also draw porn. As lovey as I want to make it, I still feel like I sound like an incel, especially when I just complain about how tertiary and unloved I feel, and it makes it hard for me to even want to say these things because I feel like this all sounds like incel garbage and I should be feeling bad because it's all blatantly obvious why nobody wants to care about me.

[Latha]

Hi there, CakeFlakeCYM,

You don't need to apologize for needing time to respond, or for feeling the way you do. You haven't hurt us by being honest about how you feel. I am only sorry to hear it. It's not fair that you've tried so hard, only to be left with the sense that you've had no results. It is not fair that you've felt unloved for so long. You deserve to feel cared for, and as though your thoughts and interests are important to other people. If that isn't happening right now, it isn't because you are lacking in some way. It is just your circumstances. Those can change, and they will change.

If I've been like... Trying my hardest to find things that help me and I'm still feeling this way, what does therapy do differently?

A very big part of what helps in therapy, no matter what kind, is the relationship you have with the therapist. Getting to talk to someone who really listens to you and makes you feel understood can make the most intractable problems seem workable. A lot of the way you feel seems to have its roots in not feeling supported by or connected to other people. It is not that you haven't tried hard enough--this just isn't the sort of problem that will get solved all on your own, inside your head.

It's okay if there are so many things that make you unhappy that you don't know what you could focus on in therapy--it is the therapist's job to help you figure that out. I know it is probably something you've heard before, but it is true that working on one thing at a time will make make everything else easier.

It's hard to be myself when I have been and was told by two seperate friends unaware of the other one that I talk to much.

I wonder why your friends said this--what their reasons were, and what the context was. Frankly, it does not seem like useful or kind advice to me, and it is not something I would say to a friend. There are a couple reasons why we might need to moderate how long we talk about a subject: it is important to give other people opportunities to be heard, and even when someone is interested in what you have to say, they may only be able to focus on it for so long. None of those are well-explained by 'you talk too much'.

I'm sorry you've been left with the feeling that you can't do anything right, and that you can't be yourself without making other people uncomfortable. It is striking, since it seems so clear that you are a passionate and interesting person. Your hobbies are not childish or degenerate--they are impressive. Trust me, I have tried to do art just enough to have a good appreciation for how difficult it is.

[CakeFlakeCYM]

"talking too much" was definitely my generalization. I was told by one friend from a different country who I only text that my texts are too much sometimes. When Im talking about something, I tend to send larger and multiple texts. And a close friend in real life just said once or twice I should try to spark notes what I'm saying, because I just talk for a while. Perhaps it was only situational but I don't think I can help it when feedback about my behavior stick to me.

When I said I've been told I talk to much, something I forgot to say is I don't feel that comment is unjustified. I feel I do talk alot and I don't know what skills have gone untrained for me to talk so much. Unless it's just like, build up from not talking alot about what I think to people. Or not feeling like I can get words into regular conversations as frequently as I want, or struggle to know when it's my turn. It feels I talk most whenever a conversation is about what I have to say. Tho also I'm frequently worried about being misunderstood, even tho I feel I am anyway regardless of how long winded I am. Also, I don't even know how I'd work on this, if it something I should work on. Idk if that's who I am, or if is a problem to work on.

Anyway, to try and steer myself back to my struggles with intimacy, I feel like all of this different conflicting info on how I should act affects me when texting people I'm interested in. This last person I'm interested in, who I've been trying to show in interested, I feel I'm really struggling with.

I don't want to text her the way I want to text because that'd be long winded and too frequent. I know at the very least I should practice etiquette. But I also don't know how much is too much. I don't know when it's ok to send a bunch of texts because I'm talking about something I have thoughts on. They've talked about interests to me for a while, in big long texts occasionally and I love reading them, but I don't know how much they would want that from me. But I also I should share my personality at the very least if I want people to like me for me, because I feel much of what I do is just ask about her. She doesn't really ask about me alot. Or initiate a lot of texts. She replies a long while after I send one often, because she says she forgets to check her phone often, and I know from the times we've talked in person, she seems socially awkward herself. And the thing is, I would want to be upfront. I would want to ask just... In detail "Hey, do I text too much? How much is too much? is it ok if I send long texts sometimes, or share my interests with you?" "Hey, can we phone call?" "Hey, can we see each other more?" Ask if this or that is ok. Or like, just say "Hey, I'm interested. Are you as well? It's ok if not".

The reason I don't want to just be obvious is because I feel that's really frowned upon. Like, I feel like socially, when people ask such point blank questions, people interpret that as manipulation, or they sound so loaded. Like I'm asking a question just so I can be told "Yes your fine" because I feel people would rarely answer "Am I texting too much" with "Yes". But also, i just want to know. I want to just be direct sometimes, and I don't know how, or when, or if I should be. Like, I asked her "hey, you said you didn't have a Valentine. Would you want one?" And before I sent it, I thought it was a good idea. My friends said it wasn't a bad idea. Afterwards, I feel stupid. It's too vauge, and the last text she sent wasn't really a reply but saying how she just caught up on work. And like, I already feel super uncomfortable being more direct in asking because I already feel like I'm over analyzing to a creepy level.

I've not texted many people im interested, and of the few I have, it feels like this is the struggle I have, if just not feeling like Im capable of communicating in a way that isn't stressful, and I legitimately can't tell if I'm just that bad at communicating, or if it's just because the people I've been "interested in" aren't really a good match for me, and I only think I'm interested because I feel there's so few opportunities for me to have met someone that could grow into a relationship...

[maille]

Oh, CakeFlake, I am so sorry to hear how much you are struggling <3

If one thing is clear throughout all of your posts, it is that you care very very deeply about your effect on others. This is such a good quality when we can hone it in a bit and don't let it go to a place of self-judgement. Please please be kind to yourself. I think a potentially comforting reframe here would be that sometimes other people just aren't enough, not that you are 'too much' for everyone. Does that reframe resonate with you at all?

I really want to reiterate that you are not a bad person, or even a person with bad intentions, much less an incel. From what you have shown us here at Scarleteen, you are a very caring, passionate person who wants to share that within relationships. That doesn't sound one bit incel-y to me at all.

I hope you find a moment today to practice some of that care and compassion that you have for other people on yourself.

[lilikoi]

Hey CakeFlakeCYM,

If it's any consolation, communication issues are something I struggle with. Wondering do I talk too much? Why am I always the one initiating a conversation? I experience that kind of self-doubt thinking often. I have found that with that insecurity, texting is a horrendous medium for conversation. It's too bad that so much communication happens through text because the etiquette is not clear and the time between sending a message and receiving a response is so variable. All that to say, the concerns you have are not just about your social prowess.

I can stand on a soap box about texting so let me hop down now to say as well that I have really appreciated reading your posts. I wish you did not have to suffer so much self-consicousness and insecurity but it sounds like you are just such a thoughtful and conscientious person. As a woman in the world, I am grateful to know that there are cis-men out there who care about creating art which celebrates playful, love-full, safe sex. I know early twenties can be a lonely period of life, but it is luckily still so early in your life! I think many women will be interested in what you have to offer. If you haven't found them yet, give it time. You are enough.

And I second Heather on trying out a school counselor. The beauty of a therapist is that you create a kind of secure relationship; so you know that, even if someone sees the "ugly" parts of you, they will stick around. Having that reassurance is really helpful for our social brains.

[CakeFlakeCYM]

Realized I forgot to reply. Thanks to everyone who replied and gave advice. It was all comforting, at least after the initial overwhelming feeling of someone talking about my feelings to me haha. I may use these boards again, I'm feeling better right now (been prescribed Prozac for my anxiety) but also there's still things I think I want to ask about but may make a new topic for? Thanks again to everyone though again.

[amber]

Hi again!

I am so glad you've found this space comforting. It's so great to hear that you've been felling better and working on your mental health!

As always, we would be happy to chat with you about other topics at any time.