Pornography?

[FanndisTS]

Hey - recently I've been coming across a lot of propaganda (or possibly true information?) about how horrible porn is, for various reasons. Apparently it "desensitizes you to sex" and makes it harder to orgasm or something (although I've never put much stock in that theory). What worries me most, though, is that when I was signing up for mental health counseling, one of the issues that one could check off (up there with "thoughts of suicide", "self-harm", and diagnosable mental illnesses) was "use of pornography". When I saw that, my entire brain just went, "what?!?". So now I'm wondering, is porn really bad for you in any way, or is this all just false info? While it's mostly not an issue for me (at least not video porn - I tend to stick to erotica) I have been starting to explore that corner of the internet a bit more and I'm wondering if I should stop. Thanks!

[Heather]

This is one of those super, super-duper complex topics. Which means that unless we talk about this for a seriously long while -- which is fine, if that's what you want! -- with a lot of perspectives, the best we can do is give very reduced summaries around all this.

The long story short with this -- either to get us started, or if that's all you were really looking for -- is that the jury is out, in a lot of ways, and it probably always be out in a lot of ways because the way people approach and feel about pornography, what their relationship to it is, and what impacts it has on a person seem to vary almost as much as people themselves vary.

That's not surprising, of course, when you think about it: it's media. And even if we were looking for the impact of any single piece of media -- let's say Jane Eyre (because I have a longstanding Bronte problem) -- we would likely have a hard time saying what impact it has on people, because that would vary so much and be dependent on so many things.

Are there people who wind up pairing compulsive behaviour or sexually violent thoughts with pornography? Yep, absolutely. And then there are people who don't. Are there people whose intimate relationships and sexualities it -- or the way they are using it, whatever kind of the many-kinds-of-its-that-are-pornography is -- impacts in a way that is or becomes harmful to themselves or others? Yep, absolutely. And then there are people who don't.

And that pattern is basically how it tends to go when we ask those questions, and review all the study and analysis, and cultural conversation, we have on porn gathered somewhere in the vicinity of the last 100 years.

So far, it seems clear the one almost universal-agreement we can take away from all that data and analysis, and what everyone thinks about either or both, or thinks without using any of that study, is that the impact of pornography on people, positive or negative, seems to depend quite a lot on HOW they are using and emotionally relating to that material, and themselves with that material, and have far less to do with whatever specific content any kind of pornography contains, or the medium (pornography) they are using to express or explore those behaviors and feelings, which often would still be present with or without pornography.

[FanndisTS]

Hmm, okay. How can someone use pornography badly, though, outside of forcing it on someone who doesn't want to see it (or can't consent to seeing it)? It's not like a gun, which can be used for good and evil but almost always has a definite, physical effect. The only way I know that people use porn is to get off, and I don't really understand how that can hurt anyone. What do you mean by "compulsive behavior" and "sexually violent"? (Sorry, I'm really curious about all this - it's been bothering me a while, so a prolonged discussion would be great). I do see how some types of porn (such as that which portrays rape) can make actions that are absolutely unacceptable seem more acceptable, much in the same way that rape jokes do, but I really don't understand how pornography can really in any way directly affect peoples' behavior. Thoughts?

[Karyn]

Compulsive behaviour is a behaviour that people perform without feeling like they have control over doing so. With porn, that might be something like they have to use it during masturbation even if they don't actually want to, or skipping other activities. That can be a problem for the individual, or in a relationship if a partner is feeling ignored, for example.

Modelling relationships/having relationship expectations based on what's portrayed in pornography is another potentially negative aspect, although again, whether or not people do that is so so variable. Media - pornography included - tends not to directly affect people's behaviour by explicitly stating what they should do, but by communicating acceptable/unacceptable behaviours and social norms, which can be incredibly powerful.

Per the sexual violence, I'm not entirely clear on where Heather was going with that, but I'm sure she'll have something to add when she's back tomorrow. I know I've been pretty brief here, but this really is such a huge topic so ongoing discussion is definitely the way to go.

[FanndisTS]

Okay, yeah, I definitely get that - I guess I didn't really understand how compulsive behavior could be applied in this case (even though I have trichotillomania, so I get it in general). I definitely get how pornography could contribute not only to rape culture (because it would probably have to be a specific type of porn to do that) but also to objectification in general, and not just of women. That's a thought - does watching pornography count as objectification? Is it morally ambiguous in that respect, much in the same way that prostitution can be?

Thanks - guess this conversation will continue tomorrow.

[Keda]

I think in terms of rape culture, it actually doesn't have to be a specific type of pornography to contribute - i.e. pornography which is intended to depict rape. Even "normal" porn tends to include a lot of ideas that are central to rape culture: that women don't enjoy sex or that women's enjoyment of sex isn't relevant; that when someone - usually a woman in porn, but not always - says "no" what they actually mean is "convince me"; that women who have sex are sluts or are being used by their partners (this is often eroticised in porn, and I guess slut-erotica is better than slut-shaming, but we'd all be a lot better off without the concept of "slut" altogether).

[Heather]

Keda brings up some interesting things there, and she's right about that, and we do have data to back that up. Where the turning point seems to be with all of this, though, is both about intelligence, exposure to other messaging, and also what a person is like with or without pornography.

In other words, by all means, for some people, some pornography and the messages a lot of it sends basically backs up things they already thought, or haven't had exposure to other messaging around. And if those same people are inclined, in general, to commit sexual violence, then some of what we have per analysis makes pretty clear that for some of them, porn, and the way they are interpreting it, validates those thoughts and actions.

But other people either don't have that inclination in the first place (or do, but will not act on it), have the intelligence and cultural/media literacy to get that porn is usually a very intentional fiction, and like any fiction, sometimes tells stories that aren't realistic or humane, or feel resistance to the negative messages some pornography sends, rather than going along with those messages.

You ask about objectification, and I think the crux there is that it depends on whether or not, when someone is viewing or reading porn, they are viewing the people in it as objects more than people. And for sure, that's true for some: think about the way some people talk about porn actors (and especially porn actresses) or other kinds of sex workers: it's clear they don't see them as people, or if they do, not as people on par with everyone else. (I tend to notice, for instance, that even some anti-porn folks seem to care very little, or not even think about, worker treatment and rights, but instead stay focused on how porn impacts them and only them: so, even in some views that counter porn, there is clear objectification happening.)

I do want to say to you, though, that one other thing I think we can say is a given is that people who find themselves having real problems with pornography, or for whom it golds up already-negative or just generally shitty attitudes about people and sex don't tend to ask the kinds of questions you're asking, or bring any of this up for any kind of substantial discussion. They hide out in it, instead, or hold tight to their thoughts and ideas about all of it because they don't want to be challenged, or don't want to think about the negative impacts their views or behaviors may be having on others or themselves. So, for someone who wants to have big talks like this, and is clearly already aware of the fact that porn is something that can be just as potentially beneficial as harmful? We can make a safe bet that they are likely to have porn only be in their lives in a way that's humane and healthy. Make sense?

[FanndisTS]

Thanks a lot! I always feel better after there's been a well-informed discussion about potential pros and cons before I make a decision about something (whether that be my stance on an issue or some other, more immediate decision). All of your points made a lot of sense and were really helpful in formulating what I think is a more nonbiased and hopefully more correct opinion about pornography and the culture that surrounds it. Thanks again!