Sexual Trust in a relatively New Relationship

[milkybarlife]

I'm in a relatively new relationship - we have been together for 7 months now, but our relationship started after only 10 days of knowing each other, so the length of our relationship is also pretty much the same as how long we have known each other in general. We knew very early on how well we get on with each other. The last 7 months have really been a testament to that, and though we have both had previous long term relationships of about 3 years each, etc, we have both felt closer to each other than we ever felt previously.

It has all felt very natural and exciting, and even when the excitement part calmed down, it seemed only to be flooded with the warm feelings of deep intimacy and deeper love rather than it feeling 'dull' or 'burned out'. I really do feel that with this person I am discovering something new, and that this relationship is helping me see a new side of myself also.

I say all these things because I want to get across without going into so much detail that on 99% of things, I trust and love this person and we seem to be perfect for each other. Not just in personal tastes but also the way we treat each other - respect, support, and love each other. I also have not stopped laughing since the day we met, and in the times I've been down he has been there for me. It has been going so well that we have even recently decided to live together - me, a person who always wants to run away and finds commitment scary. I have been that comfortable around him.

Now having said that there is just one problem, which has really rocked my trust and feelings of safety, regardless if to others I understand this might seem really stupid or perhaps immature.

He is not a cheater, and he has never given me any reason to doubt this. If anything from the start - I was the one who was against relationships and he was the one who, after seeing how we are, wanted me to give us a chance. He was the one who initiated a lot and showed clear genuine interest even while I played it cool. Since then he has always given the same effort - planning trips for me, making time for us to be together, willingly deciding to go out less with his friends to spend more time with me, inviting me to see his parents and family, making me feel welcome in his own place, showing me in every way that he is serious about me. And then I found out that he watched porn.

I felt stupid because I had never really discussed this with him, and I know that I should have from the beginning - that I am uncomfortable with the idea of him doing that - but I thought that it would be weird to bring this up at the start. So about 3 months in, when I had seen a link in his history and it really hurt me - I asked him about it openly and he answered honestly and it kind of killed me. I was mad, threatened, and told him I'm not comfortable with that. He explained it didn't mean he liked me any less or 'wanted those girls' or saw it that way, but he offered to stop if it made me uncomfortable as he did not want to make me feel that way. I am certainly not a person to make people change, and when I first found this out I had the same thought process as I always do - to leave 'because he is not the one meant for me', however him fighting for us as he usually does I decided not to be hasty.

A few months later, I discovered he had still been watching it. I was furious that he lied and even more threatened because the type of porn he watched (amateur voyuer) had little to do with 'two people doing it' and more about him just getting off to a girl touching herself. At least before, he told me that he 'thought of us', however now I thought there was no way it could have been that way. Already having the issues I do about a partner watching porn, I felt extremely hurt and insecure afterwards, thinking he was 'getting off to other girls', and the fact he lied so adamantly about it. I thought if he could lie that easily to me then what else is he lying about etc, is he really the person I thought he was, I thought he loved me and only wanted me etc.

I did break up with him that night in a fury and a huge broken down argument, however I came back the same night to talk about it and continue our relationship, and it has been about 2 months now and I have been trying to understand his point of view more. I understood from that night that it was just the way he has masturbated all his life (I totally encourage masturbation and I do it a lot myself, I just don't ever use porn for it) and that was the reason. That he only watched those certain genres because he had become desensitised, it was just a way of means to an end, physical arousal, he never thought or wanted those girls. He said when he was single he watched it a lot to fill the loneliness and so couldn't get off as easily to more 'vanilla' things etc. He also said it was more about the fantasy than the girl etc, even though that was hard for me to wrap around my head because I have fantasies but I don't think I have ever just masturbated to the thought of a guy getting off, it's always about interaction and some kind of exchange. I would have felt better if it was that because I would feel that in some way I can still fulfil that for him in real life, for example if he was watching doggy style, or anal, etc I could fulfil that, but him watching things that we could never really fulfil makes it feel all the more he wants something else that isn't from me. Also the fact it's just focusing on different girls doing the same thing, I felt threatened that he always needs a 'new girl', something 'fresh'. I started to think, what if he gets 'desensitised' with me, does he feel that way with me? I just couldn't wrap my head around it how he could be so in love with me then the only one or two days I am not there he could be so quick to go there.

Having said all that, I had never noticed any change in our own sex, he was always very into me, and nothing seemed out of the ordinary or excessive or lacking. He has always shown a lot of interest in me, and when we've been together we've had great sex.

There is no reason for me to ever think he is cheating or will cheat - he even allows me to use his phone freely. There are no even girls he talks to even though I am totally fine with him having friends who are girls or talking to girls or whatever! He is very homely, thoughtful, and seems to put me first in everything.

That's why it's really annoying that even though I thought I dealt with it and moved on from it (he said he did watch it less after our talk but he had only watched it again in moments of weakness, feeling bad, but now that he understands how much it hurts me and that even though it never meant anything bad, that he would stop. I asked him how he would do that if he yielded so 'easily' in his 'moments of weakness', he said if he felt he needed to masturbate and he felt he couldn't do it without the porn that time, then he would distract himself by doing other things etc) there are times now that certain insecurities come up out of no where. Insecurities I never had, in any relationship before!

Like if I want to go home, I become afraid to go home because I think he will 'feel lonely without me' and end up doing it again. And what it is in my head is 'going to another girl'. Getting something somewhere else because he can't get it from me. I have started to become afraid if I don't 'give him enough sex' - which is a thought I never had before, being a person who advocates so much about healthy sex and consent, etc! I realise I have started to put him before my own needs, because I am afraid he will lose interest. I never worried about him looking at other girls and thinking they are pretty - that's normal I get that - but now I worry what if when I'm not there it goes further? Does he flirt with girls when he's out with friends? Does he have that 'guy talk' with other guys being lewd about other girls? All things which are so out of his characteristic and I know that! I guess because it was such a shock to me already, that sometimes I guess I'm afraid he can shock me in other ways, by doing things I never expected like it happened already.

Having said all this, the logical side of me does understand that in this day and age it's really far from 'abnormal' or anything to meet a guy who watches porn - or anyone. I myself used to watch porn but I decided to stop because I realised that watching it made me feel like I wanted to cheat in my previous relationship - and I explained this to my boyfriend which he clarified it wasn't like that for him. So I guess my own experience with it makes me more fearful of others who do it, despite the fact logically I know that it's 'normal' for a lot of people, and that they don't necessarily think the same way or react to it as me.

But even knowing all that - knowing everything - when we get to certain situations where usually I would have trusted him 100%, as I am usually a mature and confident person - now I feel suspicious, worried and insecure. It is not like me at all and it really hurts because all it does it make me suffer, and put a barrier in our relationship. I really just miss feeling safe with him, and not worried that I have to fulfil something or that he will lose interest. I've tried talking to my peers about it, and no matter how many times they have said to me 'it's normal, he didn't mean it that way, guys do it a lot' it hasn't really helped me. It somehow still threatens me and I keep wondering when will he cave in and do it again, and is he really going to stop or just lying to me etc.

I feel that overall it has made me doubt my boyfriend loving me despite everything he has shown me and that also upsets me because he does a lot... and feeling this way I feel I don't give all those things enough credit because I've become so insecure. In times where I would recognise his love and gestures, now I just see the gaps where it could go wrong or where he could be lying. And I have had conversations with him, even recently expressing my worry of him not being attracted to me anymore seeing me all the time etc, and he has clarified that he loves me for so many reasons and it's not just physical, and that long term relationships don't mean there is less attraction, but that more attractions builds up from knowing that person better and building intimacy, sharing something more meaningful etc. Which I love. I just wish I could stop worrying about stupid little things, which I know isn't like him at all.

I must sound so stupid - I am 23 years old, but I just wanted an honest opinion. For some background - this is actually my first real serious relationship in real life... my previous relationship, although it lasted for 3 years, was long distance with only being able to meet each other a few times through that. So I feel I am experiencing a lot of new things that I never had to 'deal with' before, and feel like a total newbie.

Thanks for reading, and I appreciate any helpful point of views to help me understand/process my feelings as well as help my relationship.

[Karyn]

Welcome to the boards, milkybarlife.

So, I have a couple of questions to start, just to help me get a better idea of what you might be needing here. You mentioned that if he was fantasising or watching porn about partnered sex in some way, you'd find that easier to understand: I'm wondering if he were just fantasising about other women masturbating (not actually watching porn that focused on that) would that be something you think you would have less trouble dealing with? In other words, I'm trying to get a handle on whether you feel the fact that he's fantasising about other women at all is what has you feeling so uncomfortable, or the fact that he's actually watching other women.

In that same vein, do you think it might help to have a bit more information about fantasy and the role it plays in many people's solo sex lives? For example, the idea that a fantasising/watching porn about anal sex is therefore something that the person must want to do with a partner isn't really sound: most people in relationships - even if they adore their partner(s) and really enjoy their partnered sex life - will still masturbate, and fantasise about other people and kinds of sex as part of their masturbation.

Lastly, given that you have such strong feelings on this, do you think it's a dealbreaker for you? (His agreeing to stop watching porn and not being honest about that is a different issue; I'm wondering specifically about the idea that he has watched/watches this kind of porn at all.)

[milkybarlife]

Welcome to the boards, milkybarlife.

So, I have a couple of questions to start, just to help me get a better idea of what you might be needing here. You mentioned that if he was fantasising or watching porn about partnered sex in some way, you'd find that easier to understand: I'm wondering if he were just fantasising about other women masturbating (not actually watching porn that focused on that) would that be something you think you would have less trouble dealing with? In other words, I'm trying to get a handle on whether you feel the fact that he's fantasising about other women at all is what has you feeling so uncomfortable, or the fact that he's actually watching other women.

In that same vein, do you think it might help to have a bit more information about fantasy and the role it plays in many people's solo sex lives? For example, the idea that a fantasising/watching porn about anal sex is therefore something that the person must want to do with a partner isn't really sound: most people in relationships - even if they adore their partner(s) and really enjoy their partnered sex life - will still masturbate, and fantasise about other people and kinds of sex as part of their masturbation.

Lastly, given that you have such strong feelings on this, do you think it's a dealbreaker for you? (His agreeing to stop watching porn and not being honest about that is a different issue; I'm wondering specifically about the idea that he has watched/watches this kind of porn at all.)

Hi, thank you for your response.

Uuum.. I think actually if he were just fantasizing about it I would feel less threatened - I guess if he is just thinking about it, it seems less defined. If he's just thinking about it, I understand more that it's just a 'hot fantasy', because thinking about a person doing it, you don't really get specific ideas of their facial features or who they are, but more focus on the action and the 'fact that a person is being sexual' etc. Unless he was thinking of like a specific girl, like a celebrity or whatever, obviously that would make me uncomfortable.

What bugs me about him watching other girls specifically in amateur voyeur scenario's is that, when I saw his history that way, it seemed different from the normal porn that people search. It was like really focused on it being amateur, and when I confronted him, he said he didn't like the 'fake stuff' and 'fake women' and he liked it because it was 'real women'. I suppose he said that because my reaction to all of that was as though he was a freak or something, and perhaps he wanted to reassure me that he's normal, and doesn't have 'fake expectations' - but all he did was make me think he wants the closest thing to reality without it being technically cheating. All that it made me think was that he wanted to jerk over real girls, girls which could be my friends, in a way where it really seemed like they were just stripping off in front of him, or that he was 'looking into them'. For me that was 'too real'? I even remember asking him so many times, why couldn't he just watch porn stars like 'normal people' - and maybe I was being mean because I was angry at the time, but he told me that he 'did that too' and that he 'needed something else and new' due to the whole desensitisation thing. He said it was just a 'phase he got into' as he did with other genres before, i.e. he got into a BDSM watching thing for a few months then switched to something else.

Plus the whole thought that for him to have watched it, he would have needed to go searching, deciding and judging on which girl 'fits the bill' - it all just seems too lewd and disrespectful to me, and too invested in attempting to get satisfaction - all through using other 'real girls' which aren't me. I kept saying to him - I'm a real girl. If it was a porn star I could deal with that, but the fact it's 'real girls' I feel as though he is rejecting me, how can that be a fantasy? I think this is my *biggest* issue.

I think more information would definitely be helpful.

If he continued to watch porn while with me, yes that is a deal breaker. I am still having trouble just processing all this with the thought that he stopped, yet with the hope that I can eventually get over it somehow. But if he was continuing to watch it, or eventually said to me that he couldn't masturbate without it, then yes that would be a deal breaker.

Also, I do understand that it's normal to find other people attractive etc, but I feel that just because you find other people attractive doesn't mean you should encourage those feelings or act on it even solo, while you have a partner. There have been times certain people have popped in my mind however I then change my train of thought into other things I find sexy, and I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing to do. I have no problem with him thinking other people are hot, but the fact he 'jerked off to them' really upsets me. I feel like it's an action of rejection and being inconsiderate of what it means to the other person. Perhaps I'm too strict, but I only ask what I feel I can give in return. I don't expect that he will be exactly the same as me, but I think it's important to add that when I masturbate I think of him and us most of the time, barring certain fantasies that just turn me on, without any specific person in mind.

[milkybarlife]

...Having written all that and with you asking specifically what I don't like about it - I realise that I actually would be okay with him watching other porn, if it involved like two people and not focused only on the girl. I don't find that as threatening, because I don't find that personal, and if anything it could give him 'new ideas' to try with us or whatever - not that I think it is needed. I personally don't like to watch it, but if it's with like two people that way then I don't mind it as much. It seems less specific and more as a 'means to an end'. If anything, I think that in the future if I was closer to him, feeling more secure, and even had a night where we drank a bit and were being naughty, I can even imagine us having something like that in the background which we could copy or get inspiration from and giggle about.

I think it's just the 'realness' and the fact it's a solo girl or girl focused that really freaks me out and threatens me, and also which I find really disrespectful and like he's rejecting me.

So having those two feelings is REALLY confusing for me. On the one hand I cannot accept at all if he watches only a girl, in an amateur context - I literally feel like he is betraying me - and on the other hand even though I don't personally want to watch porn ever again, I can see myself having a fun naughty night with him at some point where we watch one together (like the one with the two people), as if it were any other movie we were commenting on and having fun with.

And that's not something I even considered or thought would be fun to do with any of my exes in the past even when I did personally watch it!

However, the reason I have told him I am uncomfortable with him watching any porn all together, is because I feel like if I told him I'd be okay with other porn, he would still 'deviate' there? And also I don't feel like I have dealt with the amateur thing at all yet so I still feel betrayed and am trying to understand/unpack it. I wouldn't want to make the situation worse until I have actually processed it and stopped feeling so threatened :/


Really sorry for adding so much context! Thank you for reading and I appreciate your responses to this.

[Karyn]

Thanks for filling me in, that helped a lot.

Before I say anything else, I want to note that if him continuing to watch porn is a dealbreaker for you, then it just is. Everyone gets to have their own limits and boundaries and wants and needs in relationships. Too, if you decide - today or next week or next month - that even with extra information about fantasy and porn, you're still not comfortable with the fact that he's watched porn in the past? That is also absolutely a-okay: first and foremost, you have to do what feels best for you, and all the information in the world doesn't change that.

That said, some of what I think I'm hearing (please correct me if I'm off-base on this!) is some thinking that's probably influenced by two ideas that are very, very prevalent. (I don't want you to think that this means that there's something wrong with you here for feeling the way you do, by the way, or that it's your fault somehow, because that's not at all the case. We are ALL products of the ideas and thought patterns and assumptions we're surrounded by from day one, those ideas can affect us in ways we may not realise, and I think that may be part of what's going on here.) Those ideas are, firstly, the idea that people in relationships are and only ever should be sexually attracted to and fantasising about their partner; and secondly, that there is a narrow range of 'normal' human sexuality, with anything outside of that being cause for concern.

What we know about sexuality, however - and we know quite a lot - doesn't support those ideas. Like I said in my first post, most people in relationships will experience attraction to people other than their partner at some point(s). Most people in relationships also still masturbate regularly, and for many folks that involves fantasy or pornography about someone other than their partner and/or activities that are not part of their partnered sex life. The fact that that happens, though, doesn't mean that they'd rather be having sex with someone else, or that they don't find their partner attractive, it just means that they're individual people with unique needs and wants and interests. It would be incredibly unusual for someone to find a partner whose sexual interests and wants were exactly the same as our own, and even if we did, chances are we'd still want to masturbate sometimes for a bunch of reasons. There's a lot of cultural messaging that says that once we're in a relationship we're not supposed to find other people attractive (and especially not watch porn featuring one person we find attractive!) but that's just not how sexuality works.

In addition to that, what people like and fantasise about is so, so incredibly diverse, so much so that 'normal' is a basically useless idea when it comes to sex. We can talk about common or less common desires or activities, but there is no normal, and the same person can experience desire for vastly different things on different days or at different times in their life. Sex is a bit like food that way: we all like different things, tastes can change over time, and no two people will like exactly the same things. Just because I really enjoy cooking and eating dinner with my partner, doesn't mean that some days I won't want to go out on my own or have something he thinks I'm a bit strange for liking so much. Similarly, if we make spaghetti together one night, and then I go out the next night and have another kind of pasta on my own (even though we may have leftovers!), that doesn't say anything about how much I enjoyed the spaghetti we made and ate together. It just means that what I really wanted at that specific point in time was to go out and eat pasta by myself.

I get that sex is a lot more personal than food, and I know you're having a lot of big, hard feelings around this that aren't going to be resolved with one silly analogy about spaghetti, but does any of what I've said here shed some new light on the subject, or offer a different perspective that might be useful? (If it doesn't, please say so, and I'll try something else! We can continue this conversation as long as you like, and our other staff and volunteers may have some helpful things to add as well.)

[milkybarlife]

Thanks for filling me in, that helped a lot.

Before I say anything else, I want to note that if him continuing to watch porn is a dealbreaker for you, then it just is. Everyone gets to have their own limits and boundaries and wants and needs in relationships. Too, if you decide - today or next week or next month - that even with extra information about fantasy and porn, you're still not comfortable with the fact that he's watched porn in the past? That is also absolutely a-okay: first and foremost, you have to do what feels best for you, and all the information in the world doesn't change that.

That said, some of what I think I'm hearing (please correct me if I'm off-base on this!) is some thinking that's probably influenced by two ideas that are very, very prevalent. (I don't want you to think that this means that there's something wrong with you here for feeling the way you do, by the way, or that it's your fault somehow, because that's not at all the case. We are ALL products of the ideas and thought patterns and assumptions we're surrounded by from day one, those ideas can affect us in ways we may not realise, and I think that may be part of what's going on here.) Those ideas are, firstly, the idea that people in relationships are and only ever should be sexually attracted to and fantasising about their partner; and secondly, that there is a narrow range of 'normal' human sexuality, with anything outside of that being cause for concern.

What we know about sexuality, however - and we know quite a lot - doesn't support those ideas. Like I said in my first post, most people in relationships will experience attraction to people other than their partner at some point(s). Most people in relationships also still masturbate regularly, and for many folks that involves fantasy or pornography about someone other than their partner and/or activities that are not part of their partnered sex life. The fact that that happens, though, doesn't mean that they'd rather be having sex with someone else, or that they don't find their partner attractive, it just means that they're individual people with unique needs and wants and interests. It would be incredibly unusual for someone to find a partner whose sexual interests and wants were exactly the same as our own, and even if we did, chances are we'd still want to masturbate sometimes for a bunch of reasons. There's a lot of cultural messaging that says that once we're in a relationship we're not supposed to find other people attractive (and especially not watch porn featuring one person we find attractive!) but that's just not how sexuality works.

In addition to that, what people like and fantasise about is so, so incredibly diverse, so much so that 'normal' is a basically useless idea when it comes to sex. We can talk about common or less common desires or activities, but there is no normal, and the same person can experience desire for vastly different things on different days or at different times in their life. Sex is a bit like food that way: we all like different things, tastes can change over time, and no two people will like exactly the same things. Just because I really enjoy cooking and eating dinner with my partner, doesn't mean that some days I won't want to go out on my own or have something he thinks I'm a bit strange for liking so much. Similarly, if we make spaghetti together one night, and then I go out the next night and have another kind of pasta on my own (even though we may have leftovers!), that doesn't say anything about how much I enjoyed the spaghetti we made and ate together. It just means that what I really wanted at that specific point in time was to go out and eat pasta by myself.

I get that sex is a lot more personal than food, and I know you're having a lot of big, hard feelings around this that aren't going to be resolved with one silly analogy about spaghetti, but does any of what I've said here shed some new light on the subject, or offer a different perspective that might be useful? (If it doesn't, please say so, and I'll try something else! We can continue this conversation as long as you like, and our other staff and volunteers may have some helpful things to add as well.)

Thanks, Karyn.

I understand what you are saying that sometimes we might be in the mood for other things which can't always be related to our partners. For example, even when I fantasize on my own, as I said, although I mostly fantasize about my partner and us together, there are times I'm in a 'rough' mood, or a 'stranger' mood, etc and so I might fantasize about a scenario involving a stranger etc. I'd fantasize about that without any specific person in mind, like the 'guy' would just be a blank, and it's more about that mystery feeling or just about the action. I won't think about my partner specifically in that moment only because it wouldn't be a 'stranger' mood then. It's more about the action and the feeling of what is happening. So, I totally understand that, and as I said I understand people in relationships still being sexually attracted to others.

What I am having problems with is that the idea of my boyfriend watching specifically porn of like 'real girls' touching themselves, how that is less of a fantasy to me. Or maybe I am phrasing this wrong - it seems like 'more' than a fantasy to me. It seems too real? I guess saying it that way is more accurate, because that is the only way I find it threatening to myself - it doesn't feel harmless anymore because I understand people still needing to satisfy different appetites and fantasies - but I'm having trouble seeing the 'fantasy' in this?

And if he told me well the fantasy is that I'm looking in on another girl touching herself and she doesn't know I'm there (voyeur) and the girl has to be like 'new' and 'unfamiliar' but also 'real looking' (i.e. basically not a porn star) - I really don't understand how I could not be threatened by that or feel betrayed? Like how am I supposed to be okay with that? I asked my boyfriend, if it was the other way around, and when I wanted to masturbate I had to go and search specifically for guys jacking off, so it looks like they are literally on cam in front of me, in order to get off - would that be acceptable to him, as a fantasy, or simple way of getting myself off? Or would it feel too real and hurtful? He said it would feel hurtful.

What I am trying to get at is, I understand if someone wants some pasta on their own the next day - I encourage masturbation and thinking about certain fantasies. But this feels like he didn't go to get a 'different' pasta, he went to get the same pasta from a different person who he thinks is better cooked by this other person, because one portion of this exactly the same pasta is not enough for him and he needs something new and strange.

What I am trying to get at is that I feel rejected by this because I feel like I should be the person he should seek out in this specific scenario. If he's in the mood for a real girl - that should be me. If he's in the mood to watch a real girl pleasuring herself in what looks like the genuine comfort of her own room - that should be me. Why should that *specific* role be filled or interchangeable? That to me is no longer a fantasy - that's just him being greedy wanting more of what he has with me but with other people. That is why it feels like betrayal to me. If he was in the mood for something else, yeah okay watch it in porn.

People have said to me, there is no reason to feel threatened by your boyfriend watching porn because it's just a show. I get that. But this specific porn doesn't feel like a show anymore - it's basically almost cam sex with another girl except without needing to actually interact with her in order to get there. That's how it is in my head.

Sure I felt hurt when I first found out he watched porn in general, but it wasn't hurt in the way that I felt betrayed. I felt a bit worried sure, but with his reassurance it wasn't like I felt personally rejected or replaced. When I found out about this specific porn, I can't help but feel like he is replacing me or rejecting me. If he wants a fantasy, he should seek a fantasy. But if he wants a 'real looking thing', he should be seeking me. And I am not necessarily denying his right to fantasy things, I just don't feel like this is a fantasy.

I also understand what you are saying about normality. It's just that my boyfriend justified this to me that it's just a means to an end and it's about the fantasy etc, and I simply want to understand his point of view but am having trouble on seeing it that way, on specifically how it can just be a fantasy and not replacing me.

Also, as I said it's not that he will only ever be attracted to me, or my kind of person, but I feel like when it's so 'close to home' maybe it's best to fantasize about other sexy things you like rather than act on that. For example, I might find a specific guy hot, and I might be able to flirt with him because it can bring me pleasure in that moment and technically won't necessarily result in me cheating, but just because it's natural to find someone hot does it mean I have to flirt with them and get my satisfaction out of that? I might hold back from doing that not because it necessarily means I will 'cheat' on my partner if that happens but because I understand it's not right to do if I am monogamous with someone - that is to have sexual fun with other people who might be like him. I mean in my head, the point of being monogamous is to give your feelings to that certain person, rather than other people who are like him. It does come with the price of limiting yourself and how you behave in certain situations concerning other people. I just think this is one of those things, and I don't understand how it can be just a fantasy in this context.

The only thing which stops what he did from being cheating is the actual leading up to getting to see footage like that. The footage being a girl touching herself on what looks like in front of her webcam, in the comfort of her own bed. Usually you would only really experience that if you spoke to a girl online and agreed to have 'cam sex', courted her in that way. However by seeing these videos, he can skip that interaction while having the same result. Just because that action is skipped, to me it doesn't feel less like an intention to seek another person to satisfy your needs, rather than to 'fantasize'.

I'm not saying all this to argue with you by the way. Trust me, it's not like I want to be 'right' in this situation - because I want more than anything to see it differently. I just wanted to help you a bit more on understanding more specifically what I am having trouble with.

[Sam W]

So, to make sure I've got this right, it sounds like a big part of what is bothering you about this particular type of porn is that it feels very intimate and "real," which makes it feel like he's forgoing something real (you) for something else "real" instead of another type of porn that's very clearly fantasy.

When he's seeking out this porn, is he doing it in place of spending time with you or having sex with you? Or does he do it at times when you're not available? I ask because, if he's watching it when he can't be with you, then it's back to being a way for him to get off when his actual partner isn't accessible rather than a way of replacing you. If he's forgoing spending time with your to watch it, then that signals a bigger problem in how he's prioritizing your relationship. If you feel like this is a need he should be meeting through you, have you two tried recreating the fantasy in some way? Or does the idea of doing that feel uncomfortable to you?

As you said yourself, this doesn't really fall under the heading of cheating because ultimately he has no connection to or interaction with the girls in the videos. They're a means to an end, a means of projecting a fantasy. As soon as the fantasy is over, the connection is over. It doesn't detract from his relationship with you or his feelings for you because there's no actual relationship with the other person. They're an image, nothing more. For him, it likely feels like a safe way of feeding the need for something "new" (which is common even in long term, monogamous relationships) that doesn't put his relationship with you in jeopardy. But, even if it's not cheating it's still making you really uncomfortable, and you get to set what boundaries you need to around that discomfort. As Karyn said above, it may be that this discomfort and the mismatch in sexual values (for lack of a better word) means that this isn't a relationship that's sustainable. That might suck, but you (and he) both deserve to have partners where you can compromise or match on your sexual preferences and habits.

Something that does give me pause is his reaction to your question about how he'd feel if you indulged in similar fantasies. That signals a double standard around what he thinks is acceptable behavior for the two of you. Do you see similar double standards in other parts of your relationship?

[milkybarlife]

So, to make sure I've got this right, it sounds like a big part of what is bothering you about this particular type of porn is that it feels very intimate and "real," which makes it feel like he's forgoing something real (you) for something else "real" instead of another type of porn that's very clearly fantasy.

When he's seeking out this porn, is he doing it in place of spending time with you or having sex with you? Or does he do it at times when you're not available? I ask because, if he's watching it when he can't be with you, then it's back to being a way for him to get off when his actual partner isn't accessible rather than a way of replacing you. If he's forgoing spending time with your to watch it, then that signals a bigger problem in how he's prioritizing your relationship. If you feel like this is a need he should be meeting through you, have you two tried recreating the fantasy in some way? Or does the idea of doing that feel uncomfortable to you?

As you said yourself, this doesn't really fall under the heading of cheating because ultimately he has no connection to or interaction with the girls in the videos. They're a means to an end, a means of projecting a fantasy. As soon as the fantasy is over, the connection is over. It doesn't detract from his relationship with you or his feelings for you because there's no actual relationship with the other person. They're an image, nothing more. For him, it likely feels like a safe way of feeding the need for something "new" (which is common even in long term, monogamous relationships) that doesn't put his relationship with you in jeopardy. But, even if it's not cheating it's still making you really uncomfortable, and you get to set what boundaries you need to around that discomfort. As Karyn said above, it may be that this discomfort and the mismatch in sexual values (for lack of a better word) means that this isn't a relationship that's sustainable. That might suck, but you (and he) both deserve to have partners where you can compromise or match on your sexual preferences and habits.

Something that does give me pause is his reaction to your question about how he'd feel if you indulged in similar fantasies. That signals a double standard around what he thinks is acceptable behavior for the two of you. Do you see similar double standards in other parts of your relationship?

You've got it all right on the nose.

No he has only done this when I've went home and I was unavailable to him. Thinking about it all so much, and the way you put it - as him reverting back to a way of getting off alone rather than replacing me - has put it all into perspective and I got to the same conclusion as you. That maybe what is fundamentally making me feel unsafe is not that what he did was 'cheating', but that what he did was okay in his mind when it's not to me. And that perhaps in the end it means we have different sexual values, and that is what is making me feel unsafe and trouble trusting him in other sexual related aspects. (I.e. worried he might do other things I find dubious then, which he might unexpectedly find to be 'okay'). In the end I came to the same conclusion that it was our different ways of viewing this aspect which shocked me the most and made me feel unsafe. Having said that, then, I do accept that to him it was just a fantasy and meant nothing more, even if to me it means something more. Therefore he did not 'betray' me, but our sexual values being different here can be a deal breaker.

Having said that, I remember that when we were discussing this for the second time (when I had found out he had done it again) he was very honest with me, and in no part of the conversation did he try to manipulate me into accepting or seeing his view. He didn't try to deny anything either. It was because of his openness and honesty that I decided to continue and understand things, where otherwise I would have hit the quit button immediately on the basis that we don't see things the same way.

I asked him how he could do it again after what we talked about - he said he hadn't done it as much as before, the times he had done it were times of weakness out of having it be a habit for about 20 years and it being the primary way of masturbating, and that it wasn't because he didn't value what I had said or that he didn't want to stop, but that he didn't expect it to be as difficult to outright stop as it was. That was all really fair to me despite how angry I felt. Throughout our huge argument he told me he would not do it again, and I asked him why should I believe that when he told me the same thing before yet ended up 'relapsing' and having 'weak moments'. He said he also didn't realise how important it was to me, that it was in fact a deal breaker and that it made me feel all these ways until our argument today. And that's also fair because when I first spoke to him about it, shamefully I have to say that I approached it by text. I was too embarrassed to have that discussion in real life and I knew that my emotions would get the better of me before I had a chance to see his truthful answer. I also hadn't gone into near as much detail as this because at the time I did not even know about the full array of the specific types of porn he watched.

I then kept questioning him though because I didn't understand how if he couldn't stop before how he will stop now, even knowing more information etc. He got a bit upset that I didn't have faith in him when he has demonstrated that he puts me first and makes an effort for us in every other way (which he does). I clarified that by doubting him it wasn't that I didn't have faith in him, but that I felt he would be doing this only for me, and it's different doing something for someone else rather than doing something because you believe in it. I told him I had stopped and it was easy for me to because I did it for myself, not because I had to for someone else. He said that for him it could be basically the same because after knowing how much it meant to me, and how it made me feel, why would he need to continue something like that - something which he feels shouldn't rule his life or his relationship, which is not a priority or that important in his life. He reassured me that he can masturbate in other ways it's just new to him and different but not worse. I believed him then and felt quite bad, and also pretty lucky to have someone who cared about us in that way because I maybe couldn't say I would do the same back so easily, or not feel threatened.

I then told him that still, if I were to be away from him it would still worry me that he would have that 'weakness' thing even if it wasn't intentional. How can I feel safe that it won't just happen again? He said that if I'm not there and he felt like he couldn't do it without the porn etc then he would distract himself and do something different completely, like play a game or go out with friends or whatever else. I had not even thought of that, and so it really showed me how dedicated he was to changing things.

Anyway after that talk I felt like he did want to change things and that's why I continued. I guess the reason I feel this way now is because the only aspect of all that which worries me in the long term now is whether our sexual values really are compatible, and whether he really does see things/believe in things the same way that I do. Perhaps I just need to be reassured. Because I guess if I'm reassured that he is doing this because he wants to and not just for me, then I can trust that he really is fulfilled with me and won't just want to 'stray' or 'betray' me whenever I'm not there. I won't have those insecurities, or worries in that case because then it's not like I'm just stopping the action of him watching porn but him still continuing to see things the same way, but rather that we would be on the same page now so then I wouldn't need to worry about his actions? I would just trust that we are on the same page, you know what I mean?

Yes I do think that is a double standard, and I pointed out that to him as well and he felt bad. Though before I put it in such a specific scenario as that, he did say that he wouldn't mind if I generally watched porn, and that he might just not want to hear about it but that he wouldn't mind. So, no aside from this one comment I've never noticed double standards between us. In this topic or any other aspect of our relationship. If anything he is the one who does everything for us whereas I'm more timid and slow to warm up. He has always made me feel serious and a priority to him. That's why I really want to work this out.

Anyway I just wanted to reply to what you said because you did get it right, and now I know that I need to have a discussion with him properly about what we believe in that context. Like you say if he really doesn't see it as a big deal, and thinks I'm overreacting about it etc, then that is not a good match in the long term even if everything else is perfect. I would not want to constrain him, or be in a situation where I don't feel trust or like we're on the same page.

Thank you.

[Karyn]

Glad Sam was able to help you think through some of this. If you want any help around initiating a conversation about compatible sexual values with your boyfriend, just say so.

[milkybarlife]

Glad Sam was able to help you think through some of this. If you want any help around initiating a conversation about compatible sexual values with your boyfriend, just say so.

Thanks so much, Karyn! :

That might be helpful actually, as I don't want to start a conversation in which he feels scared or like he's being attacked for something he did before. I just want to have an open and honest conversation with him to find out what might be best for us. How can I mention it without him feeling panicked about it all or judged?

[Sam W]

One way to approach it is to say to him pretty much what you just said to us: that you want to have an open conversation with him, not because you want to judge him or make him feel bad, but because you want to figure out what works best for both of you. You could also ask if there are things you could do to make that conversation more comfortable for him (and, for that matter, think about if there are things that would make it more comfortable for you), or the two of you could set some conversational ground rules that you think will help make it easier for you both. This article also has some tips that you might find helpful during this process: Be a Blabbermouth! The Whats, Whys and Hows of Talking About Sex With a Partner