I'm struggling with how I feel about sex

[hawley-smoot]

I think even trying to imagine 'better' as a possibility is just a waste of my time and my hope, and positive change doesn't matter. I haven't stopped feeling guilty about posting on here, so I'll continue to apologize for wasting your time regardless of how much you may or may not assure me that I am not doing so. Therefore, I am again sorry for wasting your time.

[Heather]

I'm sorry to hear that: I know how painful a space that is to be in.

So, I think the best we can do at this point is just to let you know that if that changes for you, we're right here where you left us, and will be happy to help you when you feel willing, able and ready to accept help and take the steps involved.

In the meantime, we wish you the very best, and very much hope the way you're feeling now is temporary. Again, know we're here and happy to talk more with you when that does feel productive for you, and like something you feel able to use.

[hawley-smoot]

I don't see why this will help or change anything, but I was curious as to how Johanna arrived at the conclusion that the encounter I originally described was assault, because I posted something in another forum yesterday, and the consensus was that it may have been miscommunication, but was not assault in any way.

[Heather]

Well, I think she made that pretty clear in her first response, where she said, "He went beyond an agreement he had made with you and did not obtain your consent for that, so that was non-consensual."

However, if you'd like her to clarify further, I'm sure she'd be happy to do that when she's around again.

You're also welcome to take a peek at a couple of our primers here on both consent and assault to get a better sense of how we (and most other health/sex ed/sexual and reproductive justice organizations, not just us) define these things:
• Driver's Ed for the Sexual Superhighway: Navigating Consent
• Blinders Off: Getting a Good Look at Abuse and Assault

[hawley-smoot]

Well, I thought my description on the other page was fairly similar, and the overwhelming majority of responders said that they were sorry about what happened, but that it wasn't rape, and I should work on my communication skills. One of them said that I seemed to be very misinformed about sexual assault, because since I did not say 'NO', and was not drugged or threatened, I was contributing to the incidence of false rape accusations. So if Johanna could go through her thought process with me a little more clearly, I'm struggling to reconcile the reactions of others.

[Heather]

It sounds to me like it's highly unlikely that forum was staffed by people who work in this field, or in sexual abuse/assault education or advocacy.

By all means, our world, unfortunately, is filled with a lot of people who are very ignorant or biased about sexual consent and assault, and are crappy around all of this. So, it's just not sound to figure that anyone and everyone are the right people to ask about these things and that the information you'll get is equally sound, accurate or credible.

That said, we just can't ever speak for what is said about anything at other sites, especially if those other sites aren't overall sound sources of sexuality and healthy sexual relationships information and education, or have forums that are not moderated by those educated in all of this, whose job it is to do this work and to do it well. My best advice with issues like this would be to avoid unmoderated or crowdsourced spaces, because rape culture is just still so pervasive that you're more likely to not get sound help or information, and to be unsupported, than not.

If you haven't yet looked at those links I gave you, please do take the time. Johanna can respond when she's around as well, but what she'll say to you will have a whole lot to do with the content in links here like those.

[hawley-smoot]

I've read both of those pages before, but I posted in a forum for feminism and women's issues, and the person who said I was contributing to false rape accusations mentioned that she was a rape survivor. She was also partially responding to the fact that I said I would let it happen again, but the thought on that site was that it was possible that either my descriptions were different, or the determination was based partially on validating my feelings.

[Heather]

You know, I have another link for you, just something personal from me about how, unfortunately, just because someone is a survivor of assault, that just doesn't mean they'll be sound or sensitive with others. It's understandable -- so many people just are unsupported, or haven't sound the kind of help we need to really work through all of this, including really getting how diverse abuse and assault are, and being educated about abuse and assault (and being part of a feminist forum doesn't tell us anything about someone's education or sensitivity, and again, moderation of forums really matters so much) -- but it still can really hurt and suck in a huge way when it happens.

That's here: http://www.scarleteen.com/blog/heather_ ... okay_with_

I also want to add that when it comes to the justice system, "false rape accusations" are EXCEPTIONALLY rare. Anyone who suggests otherwise simply isn't educated about this. Same goes for those who figure that's even an issue when you're not filing charges (and even then, it's only so much of one because an accusation isn't something that = a charge), and more to the point with you, just trying to figure this all out for yourself.

[hawley-smoot]

I dunno, though, what they said made a lot of sense, I guess. The fact that I would let it happen again suggests that if I didn't explicitly consent, I would have; regardless of whether or not it was what I wanted. That would mean that it wasn't assault, no matter how I feel about it. I'm sorry you've faced insensitive people when it comes to dealing with assault, but I don't think the same is happening here.

[Johanna]

Hi Hawley, welcome back!

I am happy to go over what we talked about initially re the situation you described, but it also sounds like Heather already said a lot of the things that I would want to say. Basically, the main issue with that interaction with your ex boyfriend was that you two had specifically agreed on a boundary - that he would do no more than kiss you - and he then overstepped that boundary without checking in with you.

Rape or sexual assault, basically, happen when there is no consent. Now, that can happen in situations like the ones the people you talked to mentioned: when someone is asleep, drugged or drunk and thus physically unable to give consent, or when someone has already said no and is hurt or threatened with violence. However, the absence of a No does not equal a Yes. Simply not saying no does not mean that you have given consent.

And beyond that, in your situation, you had already said No. You'd said no to oral sex. So it wasn't even a matter of your partner not knowing you were not into that at the moment and going ahead without checking in. He went ahead knowing you had said no, and without checking back to ask if you had changed your mind. That is not a miscommunication - that is someone doing something you had not consented to. Sexual assault.

I also want to say something about the idea of false rape accusations: in terms of statistics, there are no more false accusations of rape or sexual assault than any other crime. The idea that this happens all the time is a myth. Not to mention that a case will generally not go to trial without solid evidence: no district attorney is going to bring a case to trial that they do not think they can win. So if someone is in court for a sexual assault charge, changes are very good that they actually did something. But also, you are not accusing anyone, let alone thinking about bringing charges. Right now, this is purely about putting a name to something that happened to you. By simply saying, out loud, that what happened to you was sexual assault, you are not contributing to any sort of accusations, let alone false ones.

[hawley-smoot]

The thought there was that since I asked him to stop previously, I set a precedent about how I would continue to communicate with him about what I wanted or did not want him to do; and the way I physically responded to his ministrations consented in absence of an explicit statement on my part.

I guess it doesn't really matter one way or another, because it won't change what I do if it happens again, regardless of what the guy might want to do.

I don't think that I'm falsely accusing him of anything, because even if I did have enough evidence to set up a solid case, I would be too ashamed, and he has too much repute in the community for anything to really work. It would likely make things worse for me even if I did.

[Johanna]

The thing about healthy sexuality is that it, ideally, involves a lot of communication. It involves not making assumptions about your partner, and acknowledging that people's feelings and thoughts on something are not static, that something that felt great yesterday may feel boring today and something that you generally enjoy may be painful sometimes. And so on. So, in absence of explicit communications on your part? A good, caring, respectful partner will check back with you and ask. They will not make assumptions.

What I am hearing from you, now and last week, is that you're not feeling super confident about communicating wants and needs in a sexual relationship. Which, for sure, can help create dynamics that are unhealthy. I hear you blaming yourself because you helped to contribute to such an unhealthy dynamic, and talking about how you feel about recognizing and communicating your own needs is certainly a valid and important conversation to have, if you're up for that. However, that does not excuse what your ex-boyfriend did.

And we don't need to talk about accusing your ex-boyfriend of anything in any way. This is not really about him at all, it is about you. It is about you making sense of your feelings and working through them. So let's focus on that, okay?

[hawley-smoot]

But not everyone understands how much communication is necessary, so despite the fact that he made an assumption about me, the problem is still my fault.

I understand that recognizing and communicating my own needs would be important if I reacted normally to sexual stimuli, but as my overwhelming feelings seem to be largely hurtful, I would say that it would be more important for me to learn how to minimize my own needs in order to better please my partner. I imagine you will disagree, but my priorities don't seem to be moving.

Sorry.

[hawley-smoot]

I really am sorry, I feel as though I'm seeming very uncooperative again. I just don't feel as though I can express my wants and needs without hurting the people I would hypothetically be involved with, so I feel as though it would be more productive for me to figure out how to suppress my needs and desires so that I do not do so. The belief that I am at fault for the problems I have previously described fits fairly well into this framework.

[Heather]

What I am hearing here sounds an awful lot to me like, again, an issue to work on with a counselor or therapist, and like things probably primarily based in your own low self-esteem, which you've talked about right from the start here. But you've made clear that's not something you want to look into, so we are, again, at an impasse.

Is you're asking for help creating relationships where at least one person -- you -- isn't actually bringing themselves to the table, and is obscuring or trying to hide their own wants and needs, that's not going to be something we, or anyone in the business of helping people create healthy relationships, can help you with, because that kind of thing stands totally counter to healthy intimate relationships. If and when someone feels they are not able to go into, pursue or be in relationships or sexual interactions where they can be honest and open about their boundaries, limits, wants and needs, or that they should be dishonest about those to try and please someone else, our advice would be to take time away from intimate relationships or sexual interactions and work on your own issues until you feel differently; not to go into relationships creating them in unhealthy ways intentionally.

I do hope you can perhaps see some of the inherent flaws in this thinking on your own, though. Even if we go with your frame with a lot of this, rather than how we're seeing it from here, what you've been saying is that all of this is your fault for not communicating properly. We disagree, but if we did agree, can you see how now suggesting you should communicate even less, or be less honest, is in conflict with what you have been saying per things being all your fault with this stuff?

That's a rhetorical question, mind, not something you have to answer here. Just something for you to think about, and perhaps recognize as a pretty good clue that the way you're thinking about or framing a lot of this just doesn't really hold up, let alone support you or anyone else in healthy interactions that are at all likely to be something good for you or anyone, really.

[hawley-smoot]

I realize that my way hurts me more instead of less, but it would hurt my partners less, so I would still put their pleasure before my stability. My problems being my fault, therefore, does not conflict with this, because the problems are mine and nobody else's. I'd imagine that would stop the conversation, though, because it's ended things for me before.

[Heather]

Well, again, something we simply cannot do or support as an organization with an emphasis on healthy relationships is helping or enabling someone to do things we know, from education and research, to be emotionally unhealthy or unsafe. And that's what you're talking about here.

[hawley-smoot]

Is there a way that I can avoid hurting whoever I'm involved with that isn't "emotionally unhealthy or unsafe"?

[Heather]

Being honest and open and about our wants, needs and limits and boundaries with someone is not hurtful to someone else unless we refuse to acknowledge what theirs are, or refuse to accept when they don't want to work with our own (the healthy response to that is just to part ways). People not getting what they want -- with things like sex, or being unable to have a certain kind of relationship with someone -- isn't about hurting them. That's just life, for pretty much everyone, and healthy people should be able to deal with those kinds of disappointments.

If you do want to talk about this, I feel like I'm missing something here, in terms of understanding where you're getting the idea that being honest and clear in these ways is somehow hurtful to someone else. Same goes for the idea that sex is something you have to give as a sort of currency to get or keep attention or care. So, if we're going to keep talking about this, can you fill me in on that? It might also be helpful to get a picture of what your other relationships are like, including how you've grown up and your current home life. If and when people have strong ideas about relationships that are dysfunctional or healthy, and very low self-esteem, etc., that most often has started at home.

I'd also think it might be a good idea for us to talk about why, given all you've posted here and the headspace you're in, you feel like this is even a sound time for you to pursue these relationships, rather than stepping away from them, focusing on your relationship with yourself, and on the healthy relationships -- like friendships, perhaps -- you're already in where you do NOT feel any need or desire to set your self aside to try and please or cater to someone else, or to try and "buy" (for lack of a better word) their attention or kindness through sex.

[hawley-smoot]

It is, though, because I demand too much from them to constantly disappoint them.

My home life is remarkably stable; my parents have been happily married for 25 years and are such great people, they've borderline adopted some of my friends who have less-than-stellar living situations. So I don't think that's applicable in my case. I also wouldn't have picked it up from my friends or anything, as I am the only one in my group to have had any serious dating experience.

If I'm going to be feeling badly regardless of whether or not I'm alone, I would risk feeling worse for the possibility that I'll at least have someone to talk to when it hits. I was doing pretty well with my second partner, but now I have reason to believe he's with someone else, as he stopped replying to my messages a few weeks ago.

[Heather]

It's very hard for me to engage with you well with this when your responses to things involve stating things as fact that are most likely based in some busted frameworks. For instance, again, people are not hurt by someone they want sex from who doesn't want it. I can't know what you're "demanding" (or if you are actually "demanding" anything, which seems pretty unlikely to me given all you have posted so far, unless you are using demand as a synonym for "ask for," which is very much is not), but again, what you are saying here sounds very centered to me in a way of thinking about these kinds of relationships or interactions in a way that isn't about healthy ones. If someone doesn't want to give you care or time, or says they only will if you'll have sex with them, you saying, "No, I don't want that," isn't you hurting someone. It's just you declining an offer because it's not a good or a sound one.

Once more, if what you're asking for in your last response is for us to say, "Well, if going into relationships in a way where you are exchanging sex you don't really want for attention and to get someone to talk to makes you feel better, go for it!" it's just not going to happen, and I need you to hear that limit. I mean, for sure, if you want to keep going that route, that is your choice and right to make that choice, but we can't and won't get behind it as an organization.

I am curious: since your parents sound pretty great and supportive, why is it you aren't able to talk to them about counseling as an option? Or, at the very least, about some of these struggles? Or to reach out for support? You stated you felt very scared when we took our break, but it sounds to me like you at least have a lifeline in them, so aren't someone with no one else to talk to but us, so I'm feeling a bit confused.

[hawley-smoot]

I'm sorry if I'm stating things wrong, I just feel as though my statements are generally correct (at least for me) because they're based on experience I have, so I don't know. I know that I trend toward emotional codependence, and have been called manipulative before. I don't really know what other people think about it, but all I've heard is that expressing my wants and needs seems to make my partners unhappy, and that's why I keep insisting that I think so.

I know that my method is not good, or something that anyone should get behind. I've adopted it because I don't feel that I have much chance of getting better, and don't want to be alone all the time (saying that working on it alone is kind of moot, I'm alone and it has only gotten worse since that became so).

[Heather]

But as you have described it, the experiences you have have...well, sucked. Right? In other words, trying to get care with sex hasn't actually worked out for you. Having sex you don't want hasn't given you someone to talk to. And you have made clear you know you struggle with things like codependence and low self-esteem, and have stated plainly these relationships have not been good for you. So, what you've learned from experience is that the frameworks you've been using blow. You seem pretty off-the-charts smart, so I'm a bit lost as to why you're going to "This is my experience, so it must be right," instead of "This is my experience, and it's sucked, so I obviously need to make some changes."

That's kind of like saying, "When I do this with my hand, I keep breaking it, so I guess I just have to keep doing this and will always have a broken hand," instead of "When I do this with my hand, I keep breaking it, so I guess I need to stop doing that if I don't want to keep breaking it." Get where I'm at?

I think you're also not recognizing that people who do things like refuse to take no for an answer to sex, or are otherwise dysfunctional will, by all means, say things to try and manipulate you. "You having your own needs and limits hurts me" is mighty textbook from unhealthy, dysfunctional or abusive people. Holding them up as credible here just isn't at all sound. When someone says things like that, while they may hit you hard and you may believe them -- especially if they're good at manipulation or coercion -- your aim should be to get away from people like that, not try and figure out how to find more of those same people and cater better to them.

Like I said yesterday, the thing is that unless you can at least start by being able to see the possibility of things being better, you feeling better, us digging in here is going to be pretty fruitless, and probably not get you very far. You've got to be able to at least start with a mind open enough -- and a self-image positive enough -- to that. Same goes with recognizing that a) it doesn't sound like you're alone at all (you just told me how great your parents were, so you at least have them? It's hard for me to tell, because you didn't tell me anything at all about YOUR relationship with them, only about theirs with each other and some of your friends), and b) that sexual relationships are not our only way of not being alone. If you aren't there yet, you need the kind of hep that can get you there, and that's not something a service like ours can usually provide, especially for someone so very deep like this in an attachment to suffering.

[hawley-smoot]

I understand that you feel that what I think is wrong; and I agree that it's far from ideal, but I feel that it is the best of my options. I also feel that it is a system that has been working fairly well, and the problems that have recently arisen are due to the fact that I don't have a partner right now.

I don't feel that either of my previous partners were dysfunctional, unhealthy, or abusive. They might have been in the wrong place at the wrong time as far as my issues went, and could have been better communicators, but they were generally compassionate and cared about my feelings, and I should have done more to help them instead of taking up all their time with things that shouldn't have been their problem in the first place. I may have suggested otherwise earlier, but it was erroneous of me to do so.

I would like to make it stop, but my self-image is not particularly negative, and I don't understand what you mean by "a deep attachment to suffering". I would rather that I did not continue to post on this site, but I don't have anyone else I can go to with this. It's been suggested that telling other people that I'm struggling would not hurt them, but I've seen it do so, and that was one thing I swore I would not do again. So if you think I should stop posting here, I have no problem doing so; but I won't be likely to pursue another option, they're not feasible for me right now. I am also aware that sexual relationships are not the only way of not being alone, but I feel that support is too much to ask from my friends, and I have trouble keeping romantic relationships from becoming sexual.

[Heather]

I think you might want to go back and reread your own posts from the start, because some of what you are saying conflicts with your own statements.

But by all means, if this isn't the right place for you, continuing to post here because you aren't willing to go anywhere else doesn't sound like a sound situation for you or us. Especially since this isn't about you not having anywhere else to go, but simply being unwilling to. That just sets us up in a pretty dysfunctional situation, and that's not okay with me.