Penetration pain?

[MusicNerd]

Hi all! Hope everyone is doing okay during these wild and crazy times. ❤

Long story short: I've noticed that when I put two fingers inside of me, that feels totally fine. But anything more than that (like a vibrator) and the penetration feels too wide and hurts, even with lube. Is there anything I can do to make penetration less painful?

I guess this been on my mind, because I've started talking with this guy but we haven't met in person or had sex yet. Even if I don't end up sleeping with this particular guy, I just don't want this to get in the way of sex with a potential partner in the future, even though there are obviously many ways to have sex that aren't intercourse. Also, as someone who previously identified as a lesbian, dating guys is new for me too, so maybe that's also a factor in all this.

Any advice or insight would be much appreciated. Thanks!

[Sam W]

Hi MusicNerd!

When you're trying to insert larger objects, have you been aroused for awhile? Or do you try to use them pretty soon after you start masturbating?

As you pointed out, there are many ways to be sexual with another person (after all plenty queer women have vaginal intercourse with each other, and plenty of straight, cis couples do not), so this may not put a damper on things you choose to be sexual with the guy you're talking to. How are you feeling about that shift in your identity overall? Is it exciting? Nerve-wracking? Something else entirely?

[MusicNerd]

Hi MusicNerd!

When you're trying to insert larger objects, have you been aroused for awhile? Or do you try to use them pretty soon after you start masturbating?

Hi Sam! God this feels like TMI, but here we go lol So, yesterday for instance, I had a clitoral orgasm before trying to insert my vibrator. But even when I did that, it still hurt trying to insert it right afterwards anyway.

As you pointed out, there are many ways to be sexual with another person (after all plenty queer women have vaginal intercourse with each other, and plenty of straight, cis couples do not), so this may not put a damper on things you choose to be sexual with the guy you're talking to. How are you feeling about that shift in your identity overall? Is it exciting? Nerve-wracking? Something else entirely?

Yeah, I'd say that this shift in my identity at first was like a mini-existential crisis for me! haha Like, logically I understood that sexuality is fluid and all that, but I just didn't think it would apply to me somehow? But now, even though I guess it's still an adjustment for me, I think it helps that this guy is queer too so I don't feel like I have to explain things about my queerness to him. Also, I really like him and I'm starting to realize that that's more important than sticking to a label-- and I can still be queer af anyway lol

[Heather]

Hey there! Always good to see you around, but so sorry you’re in pain!

Can you tell me if this pain is new or if it’s always been like this?

[MusicNerd]

Hey there! Always good to see you around, but so sorry you’re in pain!

Can you tell me if this pain is new or if it’s always been like this?

Hi Heather! Great to hear from you! It’s been like this for as long as I can remember tbh.

[Heather]

Okay. And is it painful when you make the entry super gradual, rather than all of a sudden? In other words, if you build up to it, starting with, say, just stimulus around the vaginal opening, then something small just inside, then something just a little wider, etc?

I’m asking to try and get a sense of if this is about a how - as in, the issue is how you’re going about this - or a what.

[MusicNerd]

Okay. And is it painful when you make the entry super gradual, rather than all of a sudden? In other words, if you build up to it, starting with, say, just stimulus around the vaginal opening, then something small just inside, then something just a little wider, etc?

When I insert something slimmer, like my fingers, it’s fine for me and they can go all the way in. But if I gradually try to insert something a bit wider, like a vibrator, it’s like only the tip can go in slightly but then it stops like a wall before it hurts. I’m not sure if that makes sense?

[Heather]

It does.

So, this could be a few things.

It might actually be an issue of you going at this in a way where you literally ARE hitting a wall -- your vaginal wall or your cervix. Coming in at the wrong angle can result in that, and it might be that this isn't happening with your fingers but is with a toy because you can feel your way around better with your fingers, rather than this being about them being slimmer. Your fingers also can curve to fit, which hard toys can't. (Penises are more adaptable in that way, too.) I'm willing to bet that's what's happening here.

If you start dating someone with a penis, and they and you want to engage in PIV intercourse, what I'd suggest is this: that well before that (like, not the same day, but for days or weeks or months, depending on what you both want and works with your pacing), you spend plenty of time getting to know each other's bodies, and have that include this person getting to know your vulva and vagina with their hands. That way, they can get a feel for what works and for and doesn't when it comes to entry, and they can get to know the specific angles of your body. A partner is always going to have better leverage than we are, no matter what, so in some ways, it's always a bit easier in that regard, you know?

Doing that they and you will also learn what works for you in terms of lube, leadup, the whole works.

Then, if and when it feels right to try PIV out, you'll both be able to bring what you know to this particular table. If anything hurts before you even get to that, you can make notes and try making adjustments. If you feel like you are having a level of pain that is getting in the way of sex with fingers and you even feeling comfortable trying intercourse, that's the point at which I'd suggest seeing a GYN with a pain speciality to make sure there isn't something up.

How do you feel about all that?

[Heather]

One other thing I want to add is this: I actually haaaaaaate the term "penetration" for consensual vaginal sex, and for a lot of reasons. But one biggie is that it's a misnomer, and a misnomer that I feel like can make us conceptualize it in a way that can make it more difficult.

In reality, for as much as anyone (or a toy, etc) should be pushing in with this kind of sex, when things are feeling like they should, the muscles of the vagina should be pulling in too. And whether it's our own vagina or we're the partner of someone with one, knowing to feel for that pull can be a good cue to know when what's happening should be. In other words, we push in when we feel a pull -- if we don't really feel that yielding, we don't push in. Pushing in without it is often what hurts, and we also won't really feel that pull or yield if we're coming in at the wrong angle. The best I can describe it is that it kind of feels like one of these, in a much gentle, slippier way, if you have ever had one of these when you were a kid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_finger_trap

I feel like if we know that it should feel like we're pulling in as much as someone (or a toy) is pushing in, that's just a better cue to help learn how to do/be part of this way of engaging with our bodies. Does that make sense?

[MusicNerd]

It does.

So, this could be a few things.

It might actually be an issue of you going at this in a way where you literally ARE hitting a wall -- your vaginal wall or your cervix. Coming in at the wrong angle can result in that, and it might be that this isn't happening with your fingers but is with a toy because you can feel your way around better with your fingers, rather than this being about them being slimmer. Your fingers also can curve to fit, which hard toys can't. (Penises are more adaptable in that way, too.) I'm willing to bet that's what's happening here.

Okay cool, I’m glad what I’m saying makes sense! I didn’t even consider the lack of flexibility/angle as being the issue, but that makes sense if fingers are fine but toys aren’t. Is this maybe why tampons have historically been an issue for me too? Like, because they’re not very flexible/I might’ve been going at the wrong angle?

If you start dating someone with a penis, and they and you want to engage in PIV intercourse, what I'd suggest is this: that well before that (like, not the same day, but for days or weeks or months, depending on what you both want and works with your pacing), you spend plenty of time getting to know each other's bodies, and have that include this person getting to know your vulva and vagina with their hands. That way, they can get a feel for what works and for and doesn't when it comes to entry, and they can get to know the specific angles of your body. A partner is always going to have better leverage than we are, no matter what, so in some ways, it's always a bit easier in that regard, you know?

Doing that they and you will also learn what works for you in terms of lube, leadup, the whole works.

Then, if and when it feels right to try PIV out, you'll both be able to bring what you know to this particular table. If anything hurts before you even get to that, you can make notes and try making adjustments. If you feel like you are having a level of pain that is getting in the way of sex with fingers and you even feeling comfortable trying intercourse, that's the point at which I'd suggest seeing a GYN with a pain speciality to make sure there isn't something up.

That all makes sense too! I was worried that it was something like vaginismus, or somehow related to past sexual abuse (which involved other things that weren’t penetration).

How do you feel about all that?

I guess this means I’d need to find someone who’s patient with me since I’ve never slept with someone with a penis before. Hopefully that won’t be too hard to find.

[MusicNerd]

One other thing I want to add is this: I actually haaaaaaate the term "penetration" for consensual vaginal sex, and for a lot of reasons. But one biggie is that it's a misnomer, and a misnomer that I feel like can make us conceptualize it in a way that can make it more difficult.

Sorry, didn’t mean to offend! I hadn’t even considered that, but language is super important so that makes sense.

In reality, for as much as anyone (or a toy, etc) should be pushing in with this kind of sex, when things are feeling like they should, the muscles of the vagina should be pulling in too. And whether it's our own vagina or we're the partner of someone with one, knowing to feel for that pull can be a good cue to know when what's happening should be. In other words, we push in when we feel a pull -- if we don't really feel that yielding, we don't push in. Pushing in without it is often what hurts, and we also won't really feel that pull or yield if we're coming in at the wrong angle. The best I can describe it is that it kind of feels like one of these, in a much gentle, slippier way, if you have ever had one of these when you were a kid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_finger_trap

OMG I do remember those things! haha I like that explanation of PIV.

I feel like if we know that it should feel like we're pulling in as much as someone (or a toy) is pushing in, that's just a better cue to help learn how to do/be part of this way of engaging with our bodies. Does that make sense?

Yup, makes total sense to me. Thanks for taking the time to explain all this! I really appreciate it.

[Heather]

I wasn’t offended, I promise! And I recommend patient sexual partners for ALLLLLLLLL of us, whatever our age of level of sexual experience. An impatient sexual partner is good for NOBODY.

[MusicNerd]

Honestly, that’s a very good point! haha

[Heather]

Truly, I'm 50, and I have been profoundly around, to put it politely, and you will very much still find me ruling out any partners who don't have the patience for the core parts of what makes for partners to assure us both at least semi-decent sexual experiences. The patience for both of us to learn each others bodies, what they need, what they don't like, and how to make them work with our own is very much in that list.

Too, I think one of the benefits of being this kind of queer is that you absolutely have no reason to even think about putting up with men who don't bring all the good stuff to the table, you know? It's not like you don't have a whole world of alternatives.

[MusicNerd]

Truly, I'm 50, and I have been profoundly around, to put it politely, and you will very much still find me ruling out any partners who don't have the patience for the core parts of what makes for partners to assure us both at least semi-decent sexual experiences. The patience for both of us to learn each others bodies, what they need, what they don't like, and how to make them work with our own is very much in that list.

Tbh that’s pretty reassuring to me that someone who has more experience like yourself even wants patient sex partners— makes me feel like I’m not being too sensitive or asking for too much.

Too, I think one of the benefits of being this kind of queer is that you absolutely have no reason to even think about putting up with men who don't bring all the good stuff to the table, you know? It's not like you don't have a whole world of alternatives.

Amen to that!! haha One of the perks of being queer, for sure. I’m also hoping that him being queer as well can maybe make it more likely that he’ll be understanding, but who knows. Honestly, I’m still just surprised I like a dude, but things happen. lol

[Heather]

If we're asking too much for sexual partners to do things like be basically attentive to the needs of our bodies, then why even bother, you know? Like, what could possibly be in it for us to make it worth not having that?

I hear you on these kinds of surprises. Have been there several times now in my life, and I think I'm at the point where it'd be pretty hard to surprise me. (Now I feel like I just threw the fates a dare, oh dear!)

You know where to find us as this progresses if you need continued help and/or support with any part of it! It really is always great to see you. Hope you're doing okay otherwise in this hellscape we're all living in. <3

[MusicNerd]

Thanks, Heather! Always appreciate your insight and support

[Heather]

Always glad to give it.

[MusicNerd]

Hey! So, I have a bit of an update re: figuring out best practices for whatever-this-should-be-called, but I’m also running into an issue. This is kind of detailed, but here we go.

Good news is that when I put in a smaller, partly-curved vibrator (that I completely forgot I had) it doesn’t hurt! I’m not able to move it in and out since it’s too
short, but I think the idea of having it fit to the shape of my vagina more easily definitely helped in terms of pulling it in there.

Bad news is when I tried to use a very flexible and small dildo for the first time (which is only a little bit bigger than the vibrator I mentioned) the entrance of my vagina starts to hurt when I put it in halfway, and hurts even more when I try to move it in and out. I use plenty of lube and wait til I feel what I think is aroused enough.

Is this just a matter of my body needing to get used to the feel of it, and then the pain will go away? Or something else entirely? Any advice is much appreciated!

(Sidenote: my geeky brain is having a good laugh thinking about all this as “troubleshooting” like with a computer haha )

[Heather]

Heya.

So, it might be a matter of needing to get used to it, yes. Especially if you're tensing up when you're doing this -- which is a pretty common thing to do -- instead of staying relaxed -- a thing you learn to do -- that can be one common reason for the kind of discomfort you're describing.

Are you also being very gradual with entry, and stopping when things hurt, rather than continuing?

[MusicNerd]

Heya.

So, it might be a matter of needing to get used to it, yes. Especially if you're tensing up when you're doing this -- which is a pretty common thing to do -- instead of staying relaxed -- a thing you learn to do -- that can be one common reason for the kind of discomfort you're describing.

Hey Heather! Ah okay, makes sense. It’s possible I could be tensing up without even realizing it.

Are you also being very gradual with entry, and stopping when things hurt, rather than continuing?

I’m very gradual, but not gonna lie I definitely just tried to push through it when it started hurting... I guess I probably shouldn’t do that!

[Heather]

Yep, nope! Gotta respect what your bodies are telling us. Pain generally is a message to stop, slow down or change what we're doing in some way, not press on.

And yeah, the business of relaxing rather than tensing is something we just learn with practice. If you think about it, it makes sense to tense up as a reflex in some ways: protecting ourselves when someone or something is pressing in just makes sense to our psyches and our muscles, especially when we're not totally sure yet what's going on. Know what I mean?

[MusicNerd]

Yep, nope! Gotta respect what your bodies are telling us. Pain generally is a message to stop, slow down or change what we're doing in some way, not press on.

Yeahhh, fair enough! I’ll be more mindful of that in the future, because it’s no fun feeling sore for a while after lol

And yeah, the business of relaxing rather than tensing is something we just learn with practice. If you think about it, it makes sense to tense up as a reflex in some ways: protecting ourselves when someone or something is pressing in just makes sense to our psyches and our muscles, especially when we're not totally sure yet what's going on. Know what I mean?

Honestly, yeah, that does make sense when you put it that way. Makes me feel like less of an anomaly here. Thanks again for your help and support, Heather! I really appreciate it.

[Heather]

Happy to give it as always.