Can you sincerely, unironically, and non-sexually identify as (trans) female while also fetishizing femininity?

[LightUpTheStage]

EDIT: I put this in the "Sexual Identity" topic because I thought that this question was a bit racy for the "Gender" section. Admins, feel free to move it if it's a better fit.

Hi! Basically, my question is in the title. I'm a transgirl/genderfluid puddle (not sure which, or if I might not be both) who feels slightly confused about my identity because 1) I'm "lesbian" so I get into a lot of "do I like her or do I want to be her" situations that lead me to questioning whether or not I'm a "real" girl or if I'm just pretending to be one because I'm attracted to them and 2) well, I guess this is kind of a long story, but I'm kind of interested in BDSM and one of the aspects of that I'm intrigued by is feminization or sort of being "groomed" (but not, like, in the sexual way that Fox News screams about or anything) by a partner to be more feminine, but this is further complicated by the facts that 2a) I legitimately desperately and non-sexually want someone to "teach me how to be a girl" since I don't live with my mother so she can't really teach me how to do basic feminine things like makeup or posture and whatnot, and that person COULD be a partner or it could just be whoever and 2b) the idea of wanting to be "kept pretty" for and by my partner isn't necessarily even mutually exclusive with being a girl to start with - I could imagine theoretically having that fantasy even if I was a cis girl, especially if I had trouble meeting expectations of femininity. Please forgive me for the garden path sentence of a sort there, but I'm very confused here. It might be worth noting that, at least until recently, I haven't really been interested in "intense" aspects of BDSM like spanking or whipping or any sort of sadism or masochism (I've been starting to sort of "get" some of the slightly less painful aspects of that like being stepped on, but whips and whatnot still seem like a big no-go to me), and have been more interested in the sort of mindgame-y aspect of it. I probably didn't explain this particularly well, so please feel free to ask follow-up questions.

[Latha]

Hello there, lightupthestage! I think your explanation was fine, don't worry

Regarding the 'do I want her or do I want to be her' question- this isn't always easy to answer, definitely. Two things come to mind about this: firstly, it is possible to both like someone, and want to emulate their style- those are not mutually exclusive. Secondly, guys who are just attracted to girls don't really feel the desire to be one themselves. The fact that you want to be a girl is good enough evidence that you are.

Can you sincerely, unironically, and non-sexually identify as female while also fetishizing femininity? In a word, yes. The thing is, fetishization can mean a sort of abnormal or unreasonable interest, but I don't think your interest is either of those things.

You're right, even cis girls can have fantasies like the one you described- many do. Let me know if I'm wrong, but I think at least in part, those fantasies are about having your femininity acknowledged and validated. So to rephrase your question slightly: Can you sincerely, unironically, and non-sexually identify as female while also finding certain aspects of feminity to be hot and liking when your femininity is acknowledged and validated in sexual contexts? Yes, of course. This is true for all women.

It is totally understandable that you want guidance (though you don't need to know how to use makeup or about 'feminine' posture to be a girl)- let us know if there is anything we can help you with, there.

[LightUpTheStage]

Hi, Latha!

Re: Paragraph 2, thank you for the validation, it means a lot. I feel like my doubts about the "guys who are just attracted to girls don't want to be one" points are mostly settled. I still experience some "want her or want to be her" turmoil but I feel like that's a bit off-topic so let's set that aside for now.

Re: Paragraph 3: Can I ask for clarification there? I'm curious what you mean by "abnormal or unreasonable interest." I don't think that you meant to call kinks "unreasonable" or anything, but I'm curious what defines reasonability in this regard. Can someone with one kink or another enjoy it but not be obsessed with it? I think I may have misread your "abnormal" here. How can I tell if my feelings toward femininity are "reasonable?"

Re: Paragraph 4: I think that that's probably at least a component of the fantasies: some of them, anyway. But it's possible that that isn't ALL there is to it: I feel like a good benchmark might be to see whether I'm a girl (whatever that means - either presenting as one or even biologically one) at the START of these fantasies, before any ambiguously malicious makeovers. It's kind of hard for me to think of off the top of my head, but I think I am at the start of SOME of them, but not ALL of them. I think that in at least some of them, the core of the appeal is not that I am being "kept" feminine or made "more" feminine but that I am being "made" feminine. This might seem like the nail in the coffin for me being really trans - but the fact that I really don't think of myself as (at least outwardly) feminine (anyone who asks me what I think of my appearance will hear honestly that I think I am ugly), and I barely present as feminine (especially since I largely exist at school and my school has unisex uniforms that are decidedly unfashionable), so it's hard to tell if I start out as "male" in some of them because that's truly how I see myself or if it's just because it's what I look like. I'm also curious to hear you elaborate on how it is "true for all women" to find one's femininity to be hot and for it to be "acknowledged" sexually.

Re: Paragraph 5: Oh, a lot, but I fear that I've already given you a lot to think about, so that may be a bit beyond our scope here.

[Latha]

Hi again, LightUpTheStage

Oof, my bad with that explanation- yes, I didn't mean to call kinks unreasonable. Sometimes, when people use the word 'fetish', it feels to me like they are implying that some interest or kink is just too weird or bad. I didn't think that was necessarily what you meant, but I wanted to make the point that your interest in femininity is neither of those things.

About what makes kinks reasonable: I don't think reasonability has to do with degree of interest at all- like, you could spend all day thinking about a kink, you could be 'obsessed' with it, and it could still be a reasonable interest, so to speak. Really, I think what matters with kinks is whether they cause harm to the participants. I think your feelings towards femininity can't be unreasonable as long as they don't harm you or anyone else. And as I understand it, they don't.

Ahh, I remember those unfashionable school uniforms. if you don't mind would you provide some more info regarding what you said about 'starting out as male'? I want to make sure I'm understanding your question so I can answer it properly

Oh, I didn't mean that is true for all individual women to find femininity in themselves to be hot. Rather, I meant that it is possible for both cis and trans women (all women) to identify as women and appreciate when their femininity is acknowledged and validated in sexual contexts. Not all women have to want that, and they don't, but this experience isn't different for cis and trans women. Does this clear things up?

You could always make other threads for your other questions, now, or after this thread is resolved.

[LightUpTheStage]

Thank you for the reply!

I'm still curious what makes you think my dual (and potentially conflicting) interests in femininity AREN'T weird or bad.

This might seem like a dumb question, but how can you (or I, for that matter) TELL that my feelings don't hurt anyone? I feel like my interest is the kind of thing that gets decried as "problematic" by Twitter mobs, and I always have a really hard time figuring out whether or not the digital nooses are justified or necessary in those kinds of scandals, which makes me worry that even if the kink doesn't make me non-female, it might at least make me non-feminist, and I don't want to hurt the cause.

Re: "starting as male": the (very long-winded) line of thought I was pursuing is, in a nutshell: Do I go "boy" -> "girl" in my fantasies or "plain girl" -> "pretty girl"? If the former, then that might mean I'm not a girl, and if the latter than it might mean that I am. I'm aware that there are a lot of flaws in this logic but I was just exploring possibilities. This is further complicated by the fact that I know that feminization is a fairly common fantasy for eggs because it robs the target of responsibility, which helps evade a lot of the guilt around the subject hammered into us by society.

Yeah, that makes sense. I'm kind of curious WHY that is, but I think I understand your point.

I eagerly await your reply!

[LightUpTheStage]

P.S. Just wanted to throw this in: I think that part of what's appealing about this fantasy is that "being a girl" in the "fulfilling expectations of femininity" sense (which I DO want do do, and I DO have those expectations of myself) seems really frickin' hard both from an objectively physical standpoint, and from a "making choices" standpoint, like what to wear or what makeup to use and whatnot, so either having someone do that for me or forcing me to do it is appealing because it removes the obstacles of my lack of both knowledge and motivation.

[Sam W]

Hi LightUpTheStage,

I hope it's alright if I jump in here with some thoughts!

So, when it comes to how we can know your thoughts or feelings don't hurt anyone is that the only ways in which those things CAN hurt someone is if they influence our actions. To give a pretty basic example, let's say you're attracted to someone and have some pretty intense sexual fantasies about them. The point at which that would become an issue is if those fantasies caused you to start treating that person like they only existed for your sexual enjoyment, or let the actions of your fantasy version of them have more weight than the actions of the real them. But the fantasy and the feelings in and of themselves don't have the ability to hurt anyone else if they stay in your head.

Too, I'm not a big believer in the idea that an individual person's kinks, fantasies, or even just their gender presentation is setting the feminist movement back or is somehow antifeminist. For one, those things tend to be easy targets for things like Twitter mobs because it's much easier to try and bully someone for their sexual interests or gender presentation than it is to actually confront and change the things that contribute to the ongoing oppression of women. It lets people feel like they're doing something "useful" without having to do any real work.

Another reason is that it assumes that if women just engaged with their sexual desires/interests or their gender presentation in the "right" ways, it would be easier to further feminist causes. But there really isn't a way of presenting as a woman that can do that, because the people upholding the patriarchy will always find ways to dismiss you.

As to your P.S, that makes a lot of sense! Do you feel like you have much guidance, or people to help you out, when it comes to figuring out how to do the things you want in terms of gender presentation? Or do you feel like you're going "well, I'd like to look like this, but how the heck do I get there?"

[LightUpTheStage]

Thank you for the insight!

I see what you mean about fantasies and hurting people. My concern was that if it really WAS just a sexual fantasy (which I'm convinced it isn't), then, even if no one could tell, just from a moral perspective, it would be like parading around naked in public. But you've assuaged that for me.

I think that the fantasies I've been talking about are just genuine, chaste desires I have with sexy elements slapped on because Everything Is Better With Sex (I'm being facetious with that last statement but you know what I mean). The fantasies don't come close to encompassing or engulfing my feminine aspirations.

One thing I am concerned about is discussing this with a partner (I don't have one but hell if I'm never going to try). How do I explain "so I'm a girl and I want to be a girl in a NORMAL way, but I also want someone to MAKE me a girl, in, like, a sexy way, but I'm already a girl but also sort of a boy but like not -" you see what I mean? I don't know how to explain it without severely putting anyone off, or, at least, turning them off, and worst comes to worst they might break up with me and/or "expose" me as "one of them freaks who's just pretending." That's a really big fear for me especially since I'm kind of socially awkward and don't have a great social standing.

As to your comment regarding my P.S., the latter. Definitely the latter.

[Michaela]

Hi Lightupthestage,

I can definitely see how trying to explain aspects of your gender and sexuality seems like an intimidating and daunting task. It might not be possible to have it all figured out and perfected into a neat little sentence description but that’s fine too and when it comes to questions of identity, things tend to get a little complicated but that’s the beauty of it too. A good place to start while you are exploring your gender, gender presentation, and sexuality is to say just that: you’re exploring different things at the moment but these are the ways I see myself, these are the ways I want others to see me, these are things that are important to me, and these are things that interest me. So how might you answer those different questions?

As for the “I’d like to look like this, but how the heck do I get there?” we can definitely help with that. So what would be your ideal way that you presented yourself?

[LightUpTheStage]

I think you misunderstand my concerns about explaining my gender identity. My concern is less that I can’t explain it adequately and more that I’m afraid of extremely adverse reactions to it, either because of a poor explanation on my part or, even in the case of an accurate explanation, because they can’t handle the truth.

As to your second paragraph, that’s a question for another thread.

[Sam W]

Hi LightUpTheStage,

Thanks for that clarification! One of the tricky things about that concern is that we can't really control how other people react to things we share with them. We can do our best to communicate clearly, and if we know a person well we might know which ways of presenting information will help them understand it or be receptive to it, but even then things may not go the way we hope.

With those fears about expressing this particular fantasy to a partner, I do think there are a few things that could help it go a positive or neutral direction rather than a negative one. One is that this probably isn't going to be the first sexual or intimate thing you two do together, since it involves a degree of communication and trust that usually takes time to develop. An upside of that is that you'll have had time to develop a sense of what that partner does or doesn't like, and that could inform whether you think they'd be open to exploring this with you. Too, you could raise this fantasy in the context of a bigger conversation with them about fantasies you each have or things you're each curious to try. That can help it feel less like this is some big ask you're making of them and more like part of the give and take that happens between partners sharing their desires with each other.

With that fear of being exposed, is that something you see happen a lot, or has happened to people you know? Or is more a fear based on your brain playing out the worst case scenarios?

[LightUpTheStage]

It’s kind of both - I DO play out worst-case scenarios a lot, but a lot of the people around me seem super judgy, and what with a lot of the moral panics going around today (and you’ll rarely hear me make a “hurr durr both sides bad” comment, but it truly IS on both sides of the political spectrum in this case) especially around queer people, I’m worried that if it came out that this was something that I (occasionally!!!) thought about then I would be used as an example of the stereotypical creepy “transvestite” that’s just peddling around their fetish in public, which would be bad for both the community in general and myself specifically.

[Sofi]

That makes sense. There's a lot of sensationalized media around trans people, and it's understandable that you don't want to play into it. Do you want to talk about this with the goal of easing that anxiety, and being more comfortable with your identity? Or if you'd prefer we can focus more on how you can approach this conversation with a future partner?

[LightUpTheStage]

More of the latter - I’ve already been successfully convinced that I’m not “one of them transvestites” (not that such a group actually exists) I’m more concerned about others’ perceptions and potential social repercussions (or maybe even legal ones… somehow, but I’m not sure how that would work).

[Sam W]

Got it. So, I think part of of managing those worries will be about choosing to only share those fantasies with partners you feel you can trust. That may seems obvious, but I know some folks feel like they have to share every fantasy with every partner, rather than making the choice to do so based on the bigger contexts of the relationship.

Too, if you do share this fantasy with a partner, you can also share some of the worries you've shared with us here and talk with them about how you really need this to stay between the two of you, especially if your partner is someone who tends to talk about their sex life with other people (there isn't anything wrong with that, but you still have the right to ask that certain things not be shared).

It may also help to think about how, realistically, if this information did get shared, odds are that the worst that would happen is some people might think it was weird, which is ultimately a pretty easy thing to shake off. If people did make a bigger deal about it, at the very least that would give you some really valuable information about who to steer clear of in the future. I can't really think of any legal repercussions of you sharing this with a partner, since fantasies, and talking about them, aren't against the law, and even acting out the scenario doesn't involve anyone doing anything illegal.

[LightUpTheStage]

I see what you mean. The problem is I’ve had incredibly close friends (not romantic, but still close) who I thought wouldn’t leave me for the world but have turned their back on my and badmouthed me for shit I didn’t even do, so part of the issue here is I can’t tell how much affection “proves” someone is trustworthy.

This might be a dumb question, but: why DON’T we have to share every fantasy we have with our partner? I actually don’t even know where I got that idea from.

The thing is that people thinking that you’re weird are a BIG deal in today’s day and age - I’d probably have no career for my entire life if this got out. Especially if they thought that me “dressing as a girl” was “a fetish,” (it isn’t) then they’d start treating me like I was walking around in full bondage gear, and I’d have to decide whether it would be better to start identifying as male just to stop the fuss or if that would make it seem like it really WAS just a frying but either way my life would be ruined.

[Latha]

Hi Lightupthestage! I have seen your question, but I couldn't get to it during my shift- someone will get to you during the next shift!

[LightUpTheStage]

I don't know how long a "shift" is, and I don't mean to sound impatient, but can I check that this is still in the works? I'm totally fine with waiting, it's just that I'm surprised a shift could take over a day and I wanted to make sure that I wasn't completely forgotten.

[Heather]

Hi there, sorry that you had to wait. I'm new to talking with you, so I hope it's okay I'm coming into the conversation at this stage.

Can you get me started by letting me know what you're wanting to talk about or talk about more right now?

[LightUpTheStage]

No, it's fine, I can wait for someone else's reply.

[Heather]

Of course, if you'd rather. Can you let me know what you're looking for in a someone else so I can leave a note for the rest of them team?

[LightUpTheStage]

I don't know. Usually people jumping in don't ask for a refresher, so I was just a little confused why you were. Can't you see the thread?

P.S. Sorry if I'm a bit crotchety, I'm a bit anxious today (not about this specifically, just in general).

[Heather]

I can see the thread. I just try and ask if it's okay when someone has either had an ongoing conversation with one other person before, or where it's kind of been a cast of thousands already. And I asked about where you wanted to pick up the conversation today because I wasn't clear on that from your previous post.

In other words, just trying to do my job here when it comes to providing what we do with a modicum of decent customer service, that's all.

(And it's okay to feel however you're feeling.)

[LightUpTheStage]

Okay, thank you! I'm looking for a response to my August 5 post.

[LightUpTheStage]

Also so sorry for upsetting you, truly. I just happened to check at a REALLY bad time.