ready to date

[sky]

It just really feels disrespectful for me to be in lesbian spaces. I have never been with one and I feel curious about a real penis still. I feel as though I am intruding on their safe spaces. I also feel really super inferior with my age and lack of experience. I don’t know how to even engage in conversation with women who are seeking and queer, I’ve never in real life like done that, well I did once but a lonnnng time ago.

I don’t really belong in any group of people. I’m not straight, I’m not lesbian enough. I just feel so conflicted. I wish I could go back to 18 years old and not hate myself for liking girls and date girls and get out there, now I’m old and don’t know what to do, where to go, what to say.

I just really don’t belong in a queer women community. Girls are so pretty and intimidating and amazing I don’t feel worth their time when I have nothing to offer them. You know?

[Sam W]

Before I get into the rest of my answer, I need to set a limit: no more equating "man" with "penis" okay? Trans women without bottom surgery exist in lesbian spaces as do women who have had sex with them (and women, for that matter, who had had sex with cis men, or with nonbinary people who also happen to have a penis).

So, notice how you jump immediately from "queer women" to "lesbian?" That's the kind of thing I was mentioning a while back in chat; this black and white thinking that there are only two categories of things--in this case, straight or lesbian--rather than a whole spectrum of options.

Too, if you go to a space for queer women, you're in a space where more or less everyone probably had a moment of being the newbie and going "oh god, do I even belong here??" You'll actually be in a space where a lot of people can relate to those feelings of doubt, or wishing you'd come to understand your sexuality sooner, and a lot of the other stuff you've expressed to us over the years, which I think could be really beneficial for you even if you don't meet a partner in those spaces.

And all that brings us back to this question of the practical steps of meeting people. Because the only way to get that practice you feel you're lacking? Is to practice. That could look like taking steps to re-write your dating profiles. That could be reading up on dating advice aimed at queer women, or at least written from a queer perspective (like all the dating advice on the main site). I think a kind thing to do for yourself would be to pick one of those steps, including one of the ones Heather mentioned before, and then do it. That something we can certainly support you in, and I suspect that your therapist can as well, so you wouldn't be going it alone.

[sky]

In this most recent post I said real penis. Meaning a penis attached to a body, not a plastic one, like a toy. And in the past I said i don’t like cis men. I never said in here that only cis men have penis, I said I don’t like cis men.

[sky]

Just adding that that wasn’t meant as me trying to argue I just want to be clear that I may have internalized homophobia but no one can say I’m transphobic. That’s something I have never been or will ever stand for. If it ever came off that I had insinuated that, it was NEVER the intention.

[Latha]

Hi Sky!

I understand that you had no intention to be transphobic. It isn't disrespectful to be in lesbian/sapphic spaces when you are curious about penises. Since there are sapphic women who have a penis, you may well be able to explore that interest with them. We should only remember that just because someone has a specific body part, that doesn't mean they will want to have certain kinds of sex with that body part. (E.g. Just because a person has a penis, that doesn't mean they will want to have PIV sex with that penis.)

Re: the last paragraph of Sam's post — did you have any thoughts about which step you might like to focus on?

[sky]

I completely understand that but even manual or oral, I don’t want anything to do with a penis is my point I’m trying to make. I have a curiosity but I don’t want anything to do with them.

I don’t know, it’s all overwhelming to me.

[Heather]

Just to be clear, what Sam was trying to remind you of is that trans women were born with a penis, and many still will have one (though many also will not call it that). Thus, some women themselves have a penis.

[Heather]

Per steps, would you do something for us? Can you cut and paste one or two of your bios from apps? If you do want them to work for you, then it may be that part of why they aren’t so far is that your bios may need some tweaking.

[Heather]

A few more things! I feel certain I have told you this before, but you are not actually old to be coming out. The average age of coming out was around 26 for Gen X folks and Millennials, and it’s only a few years younger than that for people your age.

So, please know and accept that many other queer who are dating or who you might meet in a queer bar will not actually have been at this any longer than you. Many of them will be as new to it as you are. Many queer people your same age will also be struggling with loneliness and belonging: these are historically common LGBTQ struggles. None of this is just you, not even close.

Too, very few lesbians are gold star lesbians. Sapphic or lesbian doesn’t and has never meant people who have never or will not ever be sexual or romantic with or attracted to men and/or people with a penis. It does now and has only ever meant women whose attractions are centered on or primarily to other women.

[Heather]

I got — and also forwarded to Sam — the one profile you sent us. We both have thoughts!

Am I right in that you have that one set just to looking for friends? If so, is that what you actually want, rather than a dating relationship?

[sky]

I didn’t realize that it was friends only lol I’m gonna change it to relationship as well.

What’s the thoughts? I’m silly and have no chance, I know I know..

[sky]

I just want to say something, I feel like if something is so scary and makes me feel so uncomfortable, it can’t be good for me right? Like dating makes me so scared and like being intimate with girls or anyone really, makes me very uncomfortable to think about.

When I’m in the situations of being in queer spaces, what do i do? Like am I just talking to people? Am I kissing them? What am I doing?

[Latha]

Hi Sky,

Don’t worry, Heather and Sam are very nice people — they may provide advice on your profile, but I can’t imagine them saying that you have no chance. That would be mean, and it is also untrue. It is okay to want reassurance, but do you see how this is an example of negative self talk? You may feel silly, but that doesn’t mean you actually are, or that other people will see you that way.

Being in queer spaces doesn’t mean you will be expected to engage with people sexually. It just means that you will meet other people who are queer. Especially at the beginning, the goal might just be to talk to people and get to know them. You don't have to date if you don't feel ready, but I think spending time in queer positive spaces may help you with your fears of not fitting in and some of the shame you feel around sexuality.

[Heather]

100% to everything that Latha just said there.

I also want to address this:

I feel like if something is so scary and makes me feel so uncomfortable, it can’t be good for me right? Like dating makes me so scared and like being intimate with girls or anyone really, makes me very uncomfortable to think about.

That depends on if the thing you are scared of itself is good for you or not. Feeling uncomfortable or even scared all by itself isn't an indicator of if something is or isn't good for us, especially when we are talking about things where our culture or experiences have manufactured fears in us that shouldn't actually be there. For example, internalized homophobia is at the root of a lot of these fears, and that's only there because anti-gay assholes and an anti-gay world put it in there. Not only is pushing yourself past fear and discomforts created by bias and bigotry not bad for you, it is far, far healthier than letting those feelings control you, which was the whole intent of their manufacture. Consider, too, that some people and things you really should have been scared of you haven't been, so you have to know that when it comes to a lot of this stuff, anyway, your fears and where they are happening are a lil busted.

Knowing what I know about you, I don't think most of these fears or discomforts are signals not to do what you are afraid of, I think they are barriers to you living your life. I think you are seriously, seriously stuck in them and that doing things like going into queer spaces and going on some dates anyway despite feeling uncomfortable or afraid would be the best thing for you, not the worst. I also think some of those fears are about holding on to false beliefs around so much of this -- about gender, about queerness, about sex -- that you don't want to address the reality of, probably in large part because after all these years of talking, some of your brain has to know how false they are and that the realities are simply much more complex. I think that feels intimidating to you.

But again, well heck, I know you appreciate what we do here at Scarleteen, so know that when I first got started doing this and was thrust really quickly into the public eye I was terrified. It's not something I felt ready for or even really wanted, but I think we can all agree that my pushing myself to take a positive risk with it benefitted a whole lot of people, and obviously created a unique space for me to be me in the world (very much including as a queer person) that I wouldn't have had otherwise.

That all said, these are also excellent avenues to explore with your therapist. I'd ask to talk about how to get yourself unstuck with some of this and how to identify fear showing you danger and fear that is instead holding you back, and how to try some things anyway that scare you that are good for you (for instance, I can see exposure therapy around germs being beneficial for you).

[Heather]

With the apps, here is my advice in a nutshell:
• HER tends to be one of the least-used apps, so personally, that would be my last pick for you. I certainly wouldn't make it your one and only. I'd suggest adding Feeld and Hinge (this isn't a product endorsement, this is just me helping you narrow things down to which populations tend to be using what apps). And by all means, on any of the apps, you have to make sure you are taking your time and picking what you are actually looking for and offering: if you are looking for dating or sexual relationships, put those things, not new friends.
• With the one you shared, there was a question where it asked what you have to offer someone else, and you'd centered your answer on making someone feel pretty. For more people than not, that's not something that is going to be the biggest thing they want from a partner, because it's just not a particularly big offering. On the other hand, over the years, I have heard you talk a lot about how you want to offer someone emotional and physical affection, how you want to do the mundane things of life with someone together and have them be sparky, not mundane, as a result, about how you want to really be there for someone else. These kinds of things are much better, richer, things to offer someone than something about someone's physical appearance. I'd think about these kinds of things when answering prompts like that.
• In your about me, you talked about things you like and don't, but most of those were on the surface -- I didn't see anything in "about you" that really talked about who you are as a person in any deeper ways. Those kinds of things won't make or break a relationship, so again, I'd dig a little deeper. I'd say some more rich, honest stuff about you: like that you're sober, for instance, that you caretake your grandparents, that you are ready to fall in love with someone, that you are in therapy (always a star in anyone's book since it means you already know we all need to work on yourself and you are already doing that), some dream you have for your life, etc.

[sky]

I don’t really want to do this I don’t think. I do want to find my person but I really hate having to put myself out there so intensely, I don’t know anything deep about me so how would I post it and what I do know, it’s like personal you know? Something I would tell the person I’m talking to not just anyone on the app.

I am really deeply afraid of getting my heart broken. I know it’s a common fear and I’m not alone in it but it’s so strong that I just don’t want to fall for someone just to feel like shit after and be hurt.

I don’t think anything would make me not think about the fact that once someone’s inside they are always inside, that the fluids are everywhere even if you can’t see them and like then you just sleep on the bed that there’s all that stuff on it???? No thank you, I will have to pass even though it’s something I want so so bad. I think if we were on a towel it would help but then it’s like you’re fingering someone and then you touch the doorknob to go out of the room and it’s like regardless the stuff is everywhere and no matter how you have sex it’s literally everywhere. Does that make any sense?

Back to what latha said, i understand I don’t have to be sexual with them in queer spaces but what do I talk about. No one has told me anything about what we do. Like I walk in alone and just stand there and go up to someone like oh how about them Yankees. Like what the hell do I do there???

I am trying hard to speak and not just shut down and stuff now, if there’s anything that doesn’t make sense that I’ve said please let me know. I feel open at this moment and am ready to have hard conversations

[Sam W]

Hi Sky,

I'm going to focus on the dating app stuff, and the meeting people stuff, because everything else right now is steering that conversation back towards the theoretical rather than the concrete.

Being vulnerable is scary, especially when it's something we're not used to doing in a certain context, or when it's something we've been penalized for in the past. But as you say yourself, the only way to find a partner, or to connect with them, is going to involve being vulnerable. That's one of those parts of life where we can spend all our time and energy cursing the heavens for the fact we have to do a thing that scares us, or we can take the steps to actually do the dang thing. And, often, taking those steps ends up being less scary than the thing we've built up in our heads, you know?

Too, it may help to reframe Heather's suggestions in your own mind. Right now, you're having that gut reaction of "this is too much and too personal." But part of why Heather is suggesting what they are is that those kinds of details aren't baring your soul or sharing your deepest darkest fears and secrets; they're details that flesh out the picture the other person is forming of you in their head. With the details you have listed right now, there isn't much to add any color to that picture, so people are just going to go "eh" and move on. With the details Heather listed, they're telling people things about you and your life that might fill in that picture enough that people are intrigued and want to talk with you more.

With what to do in queer spaces, literally every queer space I can think of has events, groups, etc that are dedicated to a specific topic or activity. Those are often less intimidating to start out with than a more general meet-up because there's something people are already doing or talking about that can act as an opener. Beyond that, it's often a matter of asking people questions about themselves and then actively listening to the answer and continuing the conversation with genuine curiosity; being warm and interested in what people have to say tends to be a lot more useful than sticking to a specific set of conversational rules or topics.